Suggestion: New Group (or new forum) for MLO new users?

[John Smith]

Hello

It is clear that new users and long-time users have very different requirements.

I think it's important for the long-time users of MLO to have a place where they can have in depth, carefully considered conversation, normally having read the relevant parts of the manual about the extremely complex system (or should I say 'platform'?  ;^)  ) that his MLO. And to be able to do so without distracting noise & chatter from new users.

As a new user I would like a place where I can have a very different, much more informal sort of conversation. When I first moved to MLO I wanted to be able to spray out at least 1 at least one question every half hour of using the system. But I did not want to irritate the experts during the process. I do NOT expect to have all my questions answered. I want something more like a chat room or Twitter, where you tweet out to the universe and you may or may not get a direct message back, depending on whether or not anyone else is listening (i.e. following *and* reading). I also want to be able to retract or edit my questions if I discover answer to my question or have the misspelled something before anyone got to answer my question.  

Possible solutions:

1. Another Google Group.

It's quite easy to start another Google Group called say "MyLifeOrganised.new.users"
On the down side editing posts appears to be impossible (??)

2. Google+

Perhaps a more modern solution?

(Although I have never used it seriously)

3. A Free Hosted Forum 

e.g. 

- https://www.proboards.com/free-forum-features

- http://www.lefora.com/

- ??

Any thoughts/other suggestions?

If nobody stops me in the first instance I will probably just start new Google Group as a experiment, but with the clear understanding that we decide to delete the whole group if unsuccessful and/or anyone has a better idea.

J

[John Smith]

P.S. And on the New User's forum/group I would vote for the sort of moderation whereby if only people misbehave they are kicked out, and even then, if the infringement is only mild then they are merely sent warnings in the first instance.

[Lisa Stroyan]

I'm going to put on my volunteer moderator hat, given to me the developer, and officially ask that you  don't create any separate list about MLO right now. Wait for an okay from the developers for any idea like this before you jump in and mix things up and frankly, create more discord. This is their list, set up for peer support and discussion.  If you create another list I believe it risks fracturing the community we have here.

What's "clear" to you is not at all clear to many of us who have actually been here doing this for years.

It's time to get back to talking about how to use the features we already have, IMNSHO.

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[John Smith]

>  Wait for an okay from the developers for any idea like 

Yes, agreed. This is exactly what I am doing. Hence I started this thread.  

> What's "clear" to you is not at all clear to many of us who have
> actually been here doing this for years.

What irony! With huge respect, I think part of the problem is the fact that many of HAVE been doing so for many years is specifically part of the problem(!) i.e. You are no longer new users. And as such it is hard for you to understand what it is like to be a new user - mainly because that was many years ago(!)

The case that I am presenting is that as can be seen by my footprints new user and expert users have very different requirements. So different that it would be of merit to physically separate the discussions. This is after all what larger communities already do.

> ...create more discord.

The case I am making is that if there was a place where new users could 'run riot' with lots chat, albeit necessarily naive often poorly thought-through chat, about how MLO works... (but seeking some hints and tips from anyone who wished to help), and for the new users to be able to so without treading on anyone else's toes amongst the MLO experts and 'old-timers'... that this would help AVOID discord rather than create it.

This would for example allow expert user to opt IN to multiple emails from the experts area (presumably the existing group) so that they can be alerted about and participate in more thoughtful discussions... And simultaneously to opt OUT of any noise and chatter from new users. 

Are there any new users here who think a group for new users is a BAD idea?

[pottster]

I don't think a separate forum for new users is a good idea. Based on my experience of other (too many) forums I think a few additional pinned threads here could be useful though. Namely, list of resources for new users, faq's, tips & tricks, and forum rules & guidelines. In terms of interaction with new users, my view is that, far and away the most effective tool, is the webinar. This is used very successfully by a number of software companies who produce "full featured" products with a steep learning curve. Recordings of these webinars are a further permanently available resource.

[Dwight Arthur]

Hi, John.

I'd like to acknowledge that you are free to discuss MLO with anyone you want, anywhere you want, whenever you want. If you want to create an MLO Newbies discussion on Reddit, nobody can stop you. If you want to exchange your screenshots on Tumblr, good luck to you. The question is, will it create more help than harm.

When I was a newbie two long years ago, when I couldn't figure something out, I wanted to talk with somebody who knew the answer. It sounds to me as though the newbie group would exclude those people by design. So the newbie who can't figure something out would have access to, what? People who would commiserate about how badly it sucks not to know the answer? Or maybe a cohort of indignant people who could compete to see who can be the most vitriolic?

I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful; I really do respect newbies and the issues that confront them. I just don't understand the value of isolating the discussion from the people most likely to offer help.

I also understand that as a senior citizen in this realm, I may lack insight into the unique needs of the brand new user. But, John, I would argue that you do too. You have begun to use concepts from the user manual, which right away disqualifies you from any further claims to be a newbie. You have also created at least one reasonable and well-justified enhancement request, this also distances you from the true lamb-in-the-woods newbies. The more time goes by, the more you will find yourself wanting to say to the actual newbies, "hey shut up and let me explain it to you." And then two years will have gone by and you will be a senior citizen like me. Will you then throw yourself out of the newbies group?

Last question: People come to this forum because the developer recommends that they do so. Unless the developer makes a similar recommendation for your newbies group, how will the newbies find you? The top 5% most self-sufficient might find you on Google or Yahoo, these are the people who don't really need a newbies group. The rest will follow the (small) crowd to this forum which will either offer them the help they need, or not. Will they find what they need? If you and your cohort stay here, the answer is more likely to be "yes"/

-Dwight

[John Smith]

Pottster yes, I agree with all of that, but what are your reasons for objecting to a separate forum for new users - can't they/we do all of what you suggest as well?

Personally most of the time I am unlikely to be able to make a webinar at a fixed time.

For the record, my vote for order of priority would be: 

1. Training videos (shortish, focussed and to the point)

2. Recorded webinars  (probably more rambling)

3. A forum we can actually edit our comments (but which if possible does not send emails about those edits)

4. A separate forum for new users (so as not to bother expert users)

5. Much better templates (more below)

Btw, for the record, as a new user, I have wanted to post about 5-10 times as many questions as I have already posted, however if I read the tea leaves correctly a number of folks around here think I've already posted way too many(!). I have tried not to start too many threads... only to be implicitly criticised for not making enough threads (due to too many topics and questions within too few threads). [QED!]

While I'm here I have to say continue to be gob-smacked about:
 

A) Just how powerful MLO is in terms of depth of features (e.g. I only just discovered control/B and control/I to bold and italicise tasks)

B) Just how hard and time-consuming MLO is to set up something powerful that I can fluidly actually use. It really, really is a productivity platform isnt it? And the trouble with that is that the user is forced to invent his/her own system... that actually works in practice.  

And the latter is the point! Most applications nowadays are expected to be common sense. You pick up an iPhone, you go to Facebook and even twitter and you are broadly expected to learn how it works experientially without using the instructions. 

MLO is different. It is vastly complicated and although very simple shopping lists can be set up fairly easily, in truth it demands in depth reading of the instructions to really get anywhere at all as a GTD (or equivalent) productivity tool.  And so new users need a vast amount of help hints and tips lest the give up in despair at the time taken to set things up.

Do remember that most users will have come here to better manage and SAVE time, not waste time playing with tools (fun, borderline addictive tho it can be once you start to know your way around!). Fwiw, personally I have now done about 4 or 5 major pivots in my set-up! [deep sigh]

Regarding my point 5. "Better templates",  I think it would be a great idea to have about 5 or 6 completely different setups built either directly by us users or that us users have had a large degree of input into. Perhaps we could submit our ideas and then vote for them... and then see which ones get downloaded most often!

But either way, the I contend that most new users come to MLO looking for an application not a platform. And so the NEW user does needs to be offered much better, much more fully worked-up setups AND to have a slightly more meaningful way of chose between them than just a title.  Also for a new users each one template would need a short video explaining how to use them what their comparative strengths and weaknesses are. 

I believe that this could absolutely transform MLO's take-up rate. Leading to better revenue, better profits, more resource for MLO developers and a better MLO for all of us.

I would love to know how many of the existing long-timer users have
A) tried MLO but abandoned it (due to the initially overwhelming complexity),
B) then tried various other productivity tools only to become frustrated with the limitations of each of them,
C) finally to return to MLO having exhausted all the leading competitors.
From a business perspective, that's a pretty tortuous way of acquiring new customers!

J

[John Smith]

Dwight

You have a valid point that I am no longer a total new user - valid up to a point. However unlike those who have been here for many years, the experience is extremely fresh in mind, believe me.

In truth I bear the fresh wounds in my flesh from a vicious attack from the existing inhabitants, which was caused by my charging into a what appeared at the time (compared to other forums for software with many millions of users) to be half asleep forum but which turned out to be full of highly intelligent/ thoughtful old-timers who objected to: 
- my whirlwind of naive questions without reading the entire manual first (even though yes I did do text searches for all relevant options that I failed to understand!),
- my honest emotions including huge frustrations

- my carefully considered suggestions as to how MLO might improve the user experience... whilst it *was* fresh in mind at the time. 

OK so when I was a new user I got grief for giving a load of new user feedback (no matter how much I tied to ensure that it was constructive), and now my new user feedback is no longer valid!

In retrospect part of my mistake was to move my whole life onto MLO too quickly. But in my defence nobody warned me - nobody said "Don't move in to MLO too quickly". I did this because I had a window for spare time to do so. However approach this added huge amounts of stress because suddenly the control of my entire life was... out of control!

In fact perhaps like many other new users I was engaged in a time-limited project to find a new productivity tool and I had already burnt up a fair bit of time researching and evaluating *other* tools. This added yet more time-pressure!

*   *   *

What I am suggesting is that a new users' forum is the place where new users are encouraged to ask their necessarily naive questions. But that not ALL experts will be expected to follow that thread, certainly not all the time that is. They may not want emails rattling into their inboxes from new users... BUT when they have a little time on their hands, yes they may like to dip in and see what's going on with the new users.

Of course SOME expert users may like to subscribe to the new users dialogues.
But others may not. And by creating a physically separate forum for new users, only then does it become possible for expert users to get an email from every other expert but NOT get any from every new user.

i.e. They can follow new users using different email settings for each group.

And even if an expert user has subscribed to BOTH it saves a lot of time for the reader to know up front whether one is dealing with a novice or a seasoned user.

Yes, obviously any user can discuss MLO anywhere that they choose... and they could in fact start their own Google Group too(!). I have not done so because although I also feel that this would antagonise this community. Moreover as you point out unless it was officially sanctioned by MLO website it may not get very much traffic. Although yes it would be some traffic from anyone searching Google for "MLO forum" or "MLO community" etc

If you or MLO are worried about people "commiserating about how badly it sucks" you have two choices. 

A) Step in and help show the way

B) Listen to them!
What is it that is not being explained correctly? How are the user's expectations being mis-managed. What do new users really need to hear so that their expectations are in line with reality.

In my case I needed to hear messages like: 

"- This is not a application it's a much more of platform. 

- This is the system productivity tool that users go to after they have become frustrated by the limitations of all the other systems out there.

- You will not get far just by using the software. It's extremely important that you need to take time to read the manual, yes even if you are somewhat dyslexic it's still worth it. 

- MLO has been around since 2004 and is extremely robust and bug-free.

- MLO is extremely powerful and extremely flexible, but the cost is that you have to invent your own setup, which is extremely time-consuming and confusing particularly if you dont read the manual in depth.
- Sorry nope, there are no videos for Windows MLO, so dont bother looking for them.

- Sorry the manual is missing some of the hotkeys, and doing a text search quoting the option you are looking for may not get any results. Nonetheless, incomplete as is it, it is extremely important that you take time out to read the darned thing in some depth early on."

... something like that.

J

 

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[Brian Tinkler]

A humble suggestion after reading these threads for a few months.  The potential for chaos and discord exists in any community of sufficiently diverse people.  User communities surrounding other productivity software abound very successfully on Yammer, making use of tagging/contexts, discussions, identity, user subscrib"ability" (I.e., "following" users, types of content, level of content, etc.) are extremely successful, very usable for eclectic users and provide much more robust interactivity such as file sharing, events, examples, demonstrations, live chat capabilities, to name a few.

Perhaps the different experience levels could be addressed with software rather than elitism and grandiosity.

Thanks.

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[Luc Poitras]

Hi John,

(On a very large scale here if I may), one thing is for sure: You are an "intense" guy! 

And please don't get me wrong here, my comment is not a critic that I am adressing to you, but being more of an observation.

And between you and me, I want to tell you this: "I feel the same way!"...

Things around me are not moving fast enough! Change around me is not happening at a "fast enough" paste! 

And if I understand correctly what you are saying, there is not (in this case the MLO community) enough "sharing of knowledge", not enough "interactions between...", not enough "here is what I feel or think about this and that, and I would appreciate some feedback, and even more and more feedback if you will", and maybe also not enough "Can we work this thing together (this powerful mlo app!) so we can build kind of an "approach" where we could minimally use it in a more "functional" way?

This is not an attempt here, on my part, to give answers.

And to you John, I say keep up the good work, we need guys like you to "shake it up", and to provoque change.

And to the other mlo forum members who take the time to answer the questions, I just want to say thanks to you. I do not always follow where you are getting at when it turns more on the "technical" side of it, but I take what I can and try to make something out of it.

Luc

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[John Smith]

Brian 

I've never tried Yammer but it sounds promising. Assuming nobody tries to stop us, what would be the next step (or shoule I say "Next Action" for setting up a trial/test group there?

Luc

Thank you for your vote of support! And yes, I'm glad to hear you feel the same way about needing to move things forward not just faster but in slightly new directions, directions arguably more in sync with the times, rather than just more of the same.

And I would also like to echo my huge thanks to those forum members who have taken the trouble to answer my questions, most notably Dwight who's responses are so serially superbly crafted that they not only make me smile at their craftsmanship but also slightly make me think "he's wasted here!"... Superb. (But whatever you do, don't tell him... [jus' kiddin!] ) 

J

[pottster]

Hi John,

I didn't give reasons for why I thought a separate group wasn't a good idea because I reckoned Dwight pretty much covered it. I also think your case is not typical and couldn't really be the sole basis for creating another area for new users.

To explain that comment; you have been posing two concurrent types of queries, questions about functionality and questions about set up. Most new users will start with familiarizing themselves with functionality and only then move on to set up issues. I've previously said that we could, and should, provide more resources to impart how MLO works functionally. In terms of this forum, I believe that is best achieved by a pinned thread with faq's so that a database of common questions can be built up. An alternative might be a group on something like Stack Exchange with the emphasis on rapid and succinct questions and answers. Stack Exchange works well but probably requires a larger number of "helpers" than we currently have here.

Discussions about set up, I would suggest, are reasonably well covered already by the current forum.

Ref webinars

Personally most of the time I am unlikely to be able to make a webinar at a fixed time.

That's why the recordings are useful.

2. Recorded webinars  (probably more rambling)

Structured webinars shouldn't be rambling if they are conducted properly i.e. clear intent and delivery. They would retain the benefit of controlled interaction through live text chat and be flexible enough to divert discussion when required under the guidance of the person conducting the webinar. In my opinion, examples of software companies who do this well are YNAB and TheBrain.

[Saumil Vyas]

John,

I completely agree with you and I had posted my frustration about one year ago on this forum.

What I understand is the people already are using MLO have come up with their own systems that works for each of them. It is very hard for them to share it in system as a whole. This is not an offense, just an observation. Most of them will solve smaller problem at hand and move on. For bigger view, they will either say use the template or go figure out yourself.

The new user group part:

MLO actually has multiple groups within this Google Groups, i.e. MyLifeOrganized, MyLifeOrganized for Android, etc. Well they have a lot of overlapping features, still separate from each other.

Why don't they add one more "MLO Newbies", right here. 

The owners/developers need to step up and hire/pay Lisa or Dwight or whoever to build a "Work flow chart". That would help a lot.

My 2 cents, who cares anyway. 

[John Smith]

On a long car journey today I started telling a highly computer literate scientific friend about my latest discovery to help me manage time. And one of the first things he said was "nobody reads manuals anymore."

And a bit later "complex things should be  obvious and easy to use immediately ,  but the complexity should be there when you need it" .

Go figure!

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[Christoph Zwerschke]

Am 12.12.2014 um 01:53 schrieb John Smith:
> On a long car journey today I started telling a highly computer literate
> scientific friend about my latest discovery to help me manage time. And
> one of the first things he said was "nobody reads manuals anymore."
>
> And a bit later "complex things should be obvious and easy to use
> immediately , but the complexity should be there when you need it" .

Tools, including computer software, that have a certain complexity
certainly require reading at least the "getting started" section. MLO is
such a tool. And the MLO docs *do* have a "getting started" section that
is very helpful. Everything else you can read when you need it. In my
view, MLO handles the complexity very well. You don't need to use custom
views, but you can do it if you want etc.

Keep in mind that MLO is not intended to be a mainstream tool for the
masses who don't read manuals and who probably find Google Tasks,
Wunderlist or Any.Do more than sufficient for their needs. MLO is rather
a powerful tool for productivity geeks who want to implement GTD or
other sophisticated methods, a tool where you feel that the authors know
the domain very well and pay attention to detail. I don't think it ever
wants to become the simple mainstream tool for everybody, which seems to
be your tacit assumption.

MLO is not more difficult to use than other sophisticated tools of that
complexity. Of course, you can always improve the software and the
communication. But MLO does not have hundreds of developers and PR guys
and revenue like Microsoft. In consideration of the fact that they are a
small team that needs to develop software versions for power users on
very different platforms (Windows, Android, iOS and soon MacOS) where
everything is moving quickly and the platform is already outdated when
you finished your product, I think they're doing a great job.

-- Chris