Sublime with MV ... a Project?

[Tony Gravagno]

We've had a few discussions in this group with options for editing BASIC with Sublime Text. A couple packages are available to help:

https://github.com/jordonbrill/sublime-pickbasic

https://github.com/mrdevon/RocketUnidata

I've completely shifted from Notepad++ to Sublime now (after hearing from Kevin P for years about how much he likes it).

A while back I published a fork of a N++ language definition, but that was really just a fun attempt to kick up some interest in FOSS ... which of course failed dismally. The N++ tools are also not that great so I didn't pursue that after the initial effort.

Editing highlighted BASIC code is only a start. I'd like more integration with the DBMS, more like AccuTerm wED, more like XLR8. More complex integrations are possible with Sublime. I just published a pull request to enhance an existing Sublime package, got a little taste of working with it and Python at that level. It's kinda cool. I'd like to do more.

So I'm hoping to gather a little group over at mvTalk on Slack so that we can pick through this, define some features, and see what we can produce. Initial discussion here is welcome about what functionality people would like to see in a Sublime/MV interface.

Why mvTalk and not here? It's more statement/conversation-oriented, less like an async forum. It's not for long-winded tomes or trips down memory lane. There are many more features. There should not be digressions there as we do here. And we can flag and remove disrespectful use of the medium. If not there, then maybe another Google Group. I don't care. I would just prefer a focus group to be separate from a general audience.

I understand that we can use VS Code for this as well. I do a lot of JavaScript work but I haven't touched TypeScript yet. This can easily be a separate project that might benefit from the process of the first. Or people can take that one up simultaneously. Personally, I work with C#, Java, PHP, JS, Python, BASIC, Markdown, and other file formats. I've tried VS Code and Atom. I just don't have a personal affinity with them yet. For reference, I also use Eclipse for Android/Java and NetBeans for Java/JavaScript=Nashorn (yes, I've tried IntelliJ, and of course Visual Studio 2017 is my primary .NET platform). But of all of these tools, Sublime is the most versatile one-stop-shop for all of my basic (lower case) text editing needs. When I need more horsepower I get out the big guns.

PLEASE: For this thread, the topic is not about preferences, alternatives, or other existing tools. I strongly request that everyone be respectful about this. This topic is specifically about efforts with Sublime. If you want to discuss alternatives, other projects, or tools of the dark ages, please create new threads.

I'm no expert in this area of Sublime or Python, just expressing amateur (for the love of it) interest in the topic and hoping to share this with some colleagues. A side benefit is that we'll see a lot of Python code, and perhaps get some insight into how to use our new tools and skills to bind more tightly with the MV platforms that now support Python.

I'm hoping both Rocket and Zumasys will step out of the shadows for this one too, to take part in the venture. AccuTerm wED needs an update if not a replacement. In addition to a completely stand-alone client, I can easily see driving Sublime from AccuTerm using the same interface that's used for wED. So it would be a real bonus if we could get Pete and his team onboard. Rocket has this whole language initiative - they could also benefit by expressing support for an immensely popular FOSS package to use with their products. And since this is all FOSS, everyone gets all of the benefits for free. (And once again I have Kevin in my head saying "it's only free if your time is worthless" LOL)  Meh, that's FOSS...

Thanks for your time, consideration, and interest.

T

[Peter McMurray]

Thanks for this. I was wondering when I saw the popularity of Sublime with such a recommendation it has moved high on the list.

[Kevin Powick]

On Saturday, 16 June 2018 15:59:03 UTC-4, Tony Gravagno wrote:

 

I've completely shifted from Notepad++ to Sublime now (after hearing from Kevin P for years about how much he likes it).

LoL.  And I've shifted away from Sublime Text to VS Code.  I loved Sublime for it's leadership in innovative editor features, speed, and a huge community of plug-in support.  However, other than perhaps outright speed/performance, VS Code has taken the lead in all other categories.  The pace of development/improvement of VS Code and a strong community of plug-in developers has put this free and open source editor on top, IMO.

 

PLEASE: For this thread, the topic is not about preferences, alternatives, or other existing tools. I strongly request that everyone be respectful about this. This topic is specifically about efforts with Sublime. If you want to discuss alternatives, other projects, or tools of the dark ages, please create new threads.

Oops.  I replied as I read along. ;)  Sublime is still great, and maybe recent updates (2018) will bring me back.

 

--

Kevin Powick

[Dawn Wolthuis]

I couldn't find the other topic to reply to, so for what it's worth, as a non-heads-down developer simply keeping my feet wet for industry analysis purposes, my path has been perhaps oddly similar to Kevin P's:

Notepad++

Sublime Text

Short stint with Cloud 9

About a year with WebStorm

VS Code

I like VS Code for now. I don't do enough heads down to be as picky as I might be, but I'm still quite particular. With VS Code, I can tell that Microsoft has made a big effort to woo Silicon Valley. Sublime is fine, but VS Code feels a tad better, more consistent, for the slim amount of coding that I'm doing now. If I have a question about it, it is super simple to find answers.

--Dawn

Dawn M. Wolthuis

Take and give some delight today

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[Tony Gravagno]

RE : PLEASE: For this thread, the topic is not about preferences, alternatives, or other existing tools. I strongly request that everyone be respectful about this. This topic is specifically about efforts with Sublime. If you want to discuss alternatives, other projects, or tools of the dark ages, please create new threads.

Really folks, I'd like to discuss one specific project. Please create another thread to discuss your evolution and preferences.

A separate and simultanteous sibling project for VS Code would be awesome - defined in another thread. For my personal interest, my lack of time, and perhaps a toss of the coin, I'd like to focus the little effort I can to Sublime.

Again, thank you for your respectful focus on one topic at a time and for resisting the urge to digress.

Thanks.

T

On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 6:18:55 AM UTC-7, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

I couldn't find the other topic to reply to, so for what it's worth,...

[Tony Gravagno]

Kevin and Dawn: There are pros and cons with all of them. In fact my skill with JS and it's link (not mine yet) to TypeScript far surpasses my skill with Python, so VS Code would be the logical choice for me personally to get into this. However, I'm trying to create a community project and my personal skill deficit with the language is less relevant than establishing the project itself. As I said in my other post a moment ago, the choice of tools here is mostly a coin toss. Right now I'm just looking to use one toolkit for most of my projects, and perhaps translate that into a community contribution in the process. I hope some people might tackle VS Code>MV simultaneously or later on, or I might kick it off for fun. These days there is so little time for fun like this. :(

Regards,

T

[Ian Harper]

I've also made a MV syntax plugin for Sublime that I'd like to throw in the ring here. In the Sublime Package Control it's called MultiValue BASIC. It's open source and the code can be found on github (which can be gotten to through the above link). It explicitly supports D3 and QM. I'd love to add additional MV Basic variants but I'd need some assistance because I only work with D3.

I wasn't aware of the ones that Tony linked. I'm willing to bet that my syntax has more features than the two linked because they look like they haven't been updated in years. I've been developing my syntax for Sublime 3 which has "goto definition" & "goto reference" commands. I've enabled them to work with internal & external subroutine calls which makes navigating subroutines SO SO much easier!

I've also written a plugin that will connect to the database using AccuTerm's FTSERVER program (which is how wED connects). I use it to download, upload, and compile code. I haven't released any of the source code for this because I've always thought of it as being a total kludge. However I have been smoothing out the rough edges for a while now so perhaps it's time to put it out there.

[geneb]

On Mon, 18 Jun 2018, Ian Harper wrote:

> I've also written a plugin that will connect to the database using
> AccuTerm's FTSERVER program (which is how wED connects). I use it to
> download, upload, and compile code. I haven't released any of the source
> code for this because I've always thought of it as being a total kludge.
> However I have been smoothing out the rough edges for a while now so
> perhaps it's time to put it out there.

The thought of being able to do that with Visual Studio Code has me
drooling. ;)

g.

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[Tony Gravagno]

Ian, what you're describing is exactly on the path of the project that I'm trying to define. I referenced WED connectivity and had FTSERVER in mind as being one of the available connection options. For those who don't have AccuTerm or don't want to bind to a commercial product, more interface options will be required. Outside of that we have QMClient, MVSP, mv.NET, UO/UOJ, etc.

Please DM me in Slack/mvTalk so that we can discuss a few of these nuances. Thanks!!!!

And for "drooling gene" here, yeah, this applies to VSCode too. Please see my new thread on the topic.

T

[Ian Harper]

I'm connecting to AccuTerm using the win32 com object. Since scripting in Sublime is python I can do this with just a few lines of code

from win32com.client import Dispatch

mv_svr = Dispatch('atMVSvr71.Server')

if mv_svr.Connect():

Getting that figured out was the major hurdle for me. The rest is learning the Sublime plugin API and the AccuTerm Server object.

Tony, I'll contact you via Slack later today.

[Andrew Cole]

I use sublime every day for basic tasks like what you mentioned. What kind of added features are you thinking of trying to add to sublime? I've never used any of sublime's heavier features as it shines as a quick and dirty editor. I also agree with your comments regarding wED. While I love that program and it's the reason I'm able to efficiently edit PICK/BASIC, it really really needs some love. Unfortunately, as sublime is all about Python I'd be near useless helping. I'm not a fan of Python at all. 

Ian - I use your MV syntax plugin for sublime and it's great!

[Tony Gravagno]

As to "what kind of features..." .... many of those details are being discussed in a closed document at the moment with Ian and Grant. The idea is to expose it gradually to cover the obvious points and give it a good solid start, rather than expost it to the masses for criticism about what it doesn't include. This will be available "soon".

As to Sublime and Python, actually contributions will be possible outside of that scope, with JSON configs, regex, and for anyone who is familiar with other packages that do things that we expect in MV handling.

T

[Tony Gravagno]

Um, at the risk of seeming a bit flighty... I'm reconsidering the Sublime part of this, at least for myself for now.

The most recent discussions in MVDBMS here have almost all been about VSCode, given the initiative by Grant and the ONgroup team, and related uptake of that offering. It seems most of the interest here is really about VSCode ... or is that mostly just because there is a better MV implementation for VSCode than Sublime t this moment?

I announced here that I've finally made Sublime a home for my common text editing needs, and Kevin (blast you! LOL) then said he's moved on to VSCode. Since my announcement I've been mostly working with PHP (doing a lot of work with WordPress plugins, with and without some integration with MV). I'm finding that a lot of the packages (addons/plugins) available for Sublime3 have been dropped, don't work, have a lot of issues reported against them, etc. That's not just for PHP but it seems across the board. It's almost like the herd has started to migrate. That kinda snapped my head back. I was willing to sacrifice JavaScript/Java/Nashorn integration for the simplicity of this environment. But when I'm hitting walls even with a mainstream language like PHP, I really need to reconsider my allegiances.

So at the moment I'm looking back to other common solutions for PHP and Nashorn, including VSCode, Atom, NetBeans, and Eclipse, maybe even buyware like IntelliJ IDEA, phpStorm, or Komodo.

For our purposes here, this is intended to be a multi-homed project, to define general MV IDE features, and then to foster development of integrations for specific platforms. I'm wondering if the Sublime-specific initiative should really be on the same tier with VSCode.

As mentioned before, this is not a thread about preferences, but about Sublime and MV. In this case the question now is : Should we even put any more focus on MV for Sublime for a while? And while there will certainly be votes of "yes, because I want it", the better way to approach this is - would MV support in Sublime actually be of general benefit to the community, like we're seeing with VSCode?

Thanks for enduring my musing....

T

[Kevin Powick]

On Wednesday, 4 July 2018 17:07:45 UTC-4, Tony Gravagno wrote:

I announced here that I've finally made Sublime a home for my common text editing needs, and Kevin (blast you! LOL) then said he's moved on to VSCode.

I'm now dropping VSCode and switching to Atom.  I like their logo better.  And Microsoft sucks.

 

 

 phpStorm

If you can live with Java based programs, phpStorm is quite nice.

BTW, I'm not moving to Atom.  I gave up on that editor even before VS Code was on the scene.

--

Kevin Powick

[Andrew Cole]

I've begun using VS Code now mostly due to all the work Grant's been doing and Sublime's more recent lack of development. It seemed for awhile (2016?) like Sublime died until v3 came out. I still prefer Sublime but it's probably more because I'm used to it. I find Ian's Sublime syntax highlighting to be currently better (plus it has PROC) than the one in VS Code but as time goes on I have no doubt Grant's version will continue to improve. I agree it does seem like there's more of a want for VS Code than Sublime.

On a side note, I'd strongly recommend you give IntelliJ IDEA/phpStorm a shot. I LOVE that IDE as I mostly do Java and PHP development and IDEA does both really well. Love the built in SSH console, database editor/viewer, and the editor.

[Ian McGowan]

I paid for and was happily using Sublime and Sublime SFTP, which let me download on open and upload on save.  I switched to VSCode because the git integration is (was?) so much easier, and the plethora of plugins is hard to resist.  I'm using the sftp plugin which is slowly getting to the same level of quality/functionality.

What features are you thinking of surfacing within an "IDE"?  Syntax highlighting and remote editing can be done with plugins.  Version control is built-in.  I guess it would be nice to compile the current window's code with a keystroke.  My current workflow is to have 2 monitors with VSCode full screen on the big one, and a terminal (MobaXterm rocks!) on the smaller.  I edit for a while, then alt-tab over and compile and run and do some quick testing.

The one thing I really miss from sublime is goto definition.  But Ctrl-P and start typing the subroutine name is usually fast enough.

So one place to start is with some ideas for functionality - the ability to edit records (e.g. DICT items), compile, run programs, run queries (returned in a grid)?  How about generating documentation in markdown?

[Grant H]

Hi Ian,

If you have already moved to VSCode, there are MV BASIC extensions that have highlighting, linting, Intellisense , goto/peek definition etc. Search for MV# in the marketplace.

Cheers

[Ian McGowan]

Grant, thanks, I saw all the activity after replying to Tony and installed MV#Developer extension yesterday, and there went my evening..  Love the goto definition and ctrl-space to complete.  You've lit quite a fire!  It's cool to see so much enthusiasm..

I'm finding the MV gateway part a little challenging to configure and troubleshoot, but I'm not sure it's needed for my workflow right now - I use the sftp extension to automatically sync files down on open, and upload on save.  I like having a local copy and use git to version.

Thanks for all your hard work!

[grant...@prosol.co.za]

Hi Iam,

Many thanks. The gateway is going through a lot of debugging at the moment and we are trying to sort out the issues users are experiencing. Dick Thiot from Maverick systems has been integral in ironing out the bugs, Thanks Dick.

I think I will start a new thread where users can discuss the issues they are experiencing

Cheers

[Dick Thiot]

Good idea, Grant.

[Ian McGowan]

Two things would help me, 1) a readme explaining the installation and configuration process, and 2) some pointers to where the logs can be found to help troubleshoot the gateway connection process.  Maybe start that thread with a recap of what to do and where to check before posting?

It's been fun watching the sausage getting made these last few days, thanks for doing all of this out in the open.

[Tony Gravagno]

Note to all, I was just looking through the VS Code extensions marketplace and noted that there are at least three extensions by different people for MV BASIC. Trying to maintain a view of the forest and not just one tree, I will be looking to see what those have which might benefit the most recent extensions.

T

[Lance Mazon]

Did anything ever come of this? I'm currently using Sublime but the talk of VSCode has me intrigued. More integration would be very cool. I wrote my own syntax highlighter for Sublime some time ago but it's pretty bare bones. Would love to see what else is out there and if anything came of either the Sublime or VSCode integrations talked about above. Thanks!

Lance M

[Ian McGowan]

The VSCode extension is quite active, with frequent new releases.  Definitely worth checking out if you write basic code all day.  VSCode is a game changer, and the extension is a really great addition to that editing experience. 

MV Basic - Visual Studio Marketplace for install and 

 mvextensions/mvbasic: MultiValue Basic extension for Visual Studio Code (github.com) for instructions and development docs.

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[joseba]

Take a look at https://kosday.com/by-developers-for-developers-mv-basic-linkar-vs-code-extension/ 

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=KosdaySolutions.mvbasiclinkar

We have already lunch a new version last week

[Lance Mazon]

@joseba It looks like the one you are posting requires purchase of third party software for server connectivity, whilst the one posted by Ian does not(If I'm understanding correctly). I'm not seeing any compelling reason to go to the second one at this point, but please let us know if t here is some reason it is somehow preferable. If not, it would seem that as a group our efforts would be better put in to one solution. (Please don't take this as any sort of sleight. It is not! Just observing that hard work is being done on both projects and they're competing against each other when the effort could be combined into one extension.) Thank you to everybody for the discussion and the updates!

Lance

[joseba]

Hi Lance, Yes, you are completely right. If you use the Linkar MV Basic extension you do not connect directly to an MV database, you connect to a Linkar Server that manages all connections. But we are part of the mvBasic project. Actually, our efforts, from Kosday to all the people involved on it, is to have a unique extension. The mvVSCode extension has 2 very different parts. One of them is the VSCode tools. The VScode tools are the same in all the extensions. The other one is the connectivity with the database. And here the Linkar extension is different. Why? Because Linkar controls very very well the connectivity with almost all the MV databases (D3, mvBase, QM, Reality, Universe, and Unidata by now). By now there are 3 different mvBasic VSCode extensions, and all of them changes in the connectivity tool. The original one, by the mvON people, connects directly to a file somewhere in the network. This means that it is not easy to use the extension for instance with D3 or mvBase or Reality, where the file with the source code must be inside the database. It is much easier with mvON, Universe or Unidata using a directory type file. But also, it is slow. The second one is the extension using Accuterm for the connectivity. In this case, you also need a third part component, Accuterm. And there is our extension, using Linkar. It is important to know that there are not 3 different products, it is only one product with 3 different types of connection types to the database. And all of us work together, send ideas between us, all have the source code for all the connectors, etc. The only one that said they will do their own extension outside the group was Rocket and I do not think they have anything yet.

Why you should "buy" Linkar? The question should be, what the Linkar extension offers. There are some reasons:

1.- You can use the same extension, in one instance of VSCode to connect to different accounts in a database and to different databases in different machines, in different geographical locations easily.

2.- You never "expose" the database. The programmers do not need access to the database, you do not need to open "TCP/IP ports, share files, etc. The extension only connects to the Linkar Server and the Linkar Server "talks" with the database. This is very important if you have programmers outside or you just want to contract an outside programmer.

3.- One of the Linkar Server advantages is "pooling", and "pooling" is fantastic in programming. What does this mean? Programmers access the database for 3 purposes, read a program, write a program, compile-catalog a program. WIth Linkar you can use one database license and share it with 10 programmers or more. Even, you can have this database session configured in Linkar as "on demand" and it will be only used when the programmer does one of that three tools only. Linkar will open and close the database session, the programmer has no idea about that.

4.-  Linkar extension includes a very powerful dictionary management tool inside VSCode. Many times programmers need not only to code in Basic, but see, create, modify dictionaries. You ca do it easily inside VSCode with the Linkar extension.

5.- You can use the Linkar suite tools for more things... (rest Api for web services without the need of a third web server, etc..)

If you want, we will be very happy to show you the LInkar mvExtension, we can create a videoconference for that. For us it will be fantastic if more people in this group want to see it please write it here with your local time area and we will do it.

And very important, Linkar is very affordable. You can do have it for $82 first year and $19 the rest of the years if you want. And of course, you can test it first without problems, or even better, you can download the source code of the extension free and change it to use a different type of connector if you want and use it. The Linkar VSCode extension is free and open source.

Thanks a lot for your interest.

[Ian McGowan]

Rocket just announced their VSCode plugin.  It's a little bit of a turn-off that you need to install java for it to work, but looks interesting and worth checking out. I obviously prefer that the mvbasic VSCode plugin is multi-vendor and accepting contributions from anyone interested in pushing MV forward. But it's great to have some cross-fertilization of ideas and features.

Announcements - Rocket Forum (rocketsoftware.com)

Rocket MV BASIC (rocketsoftware.github.io)

[joseba]

Well, I think this is a little more about "blurb" Rocket is not involved in the MVBASIC team. Well, it was their decision. First, the plugging does not work even with all the Rocket MV databases, it only works with U2 environments. And much more, if you take a look at their github (https://rocketsoftware.github.io/rocket-mvbasic/) you will see that it only work in a local machine (" Restriction: Currently the extension is only used to edit BASIC program files on local machine.")

[Ian McGowan]

Yes, it seems like a 0.1 release, but I'm still interested in trying it out and comparing with the mvbasic extension.  The latter is far more interesting to me since it's completely open and I can make whatever tweaks are needed for my workflow.  But having Rocket release a VSCode extension validates "the market" and will hopefully drive innovation for everyone.

Personally, I'd love a pure-js gateway product that abstracts access to all the MV backends, as well as a js dialect-aware parser/linter.  And also a pony, that'd be nice.. :-)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/mvdbms/9e6b1b64-ad21-4cb1-841f-2ae992a15b0cn%40googlegroups.com.

[joseba]

" I'd love a pure-js gateway product that abstracts access to all the MV backends,": This is just what the Linkar MV Extension adds to the MVBasic Extension. And what we are working on, in the MVExtension is to have this inside one extension and then you can configure what kind of connection do you want to use.