Tony Gravagno
While many groups would want to be able to choose from a standard set of tags, I think members here would find that confining and inadequate. Therefore members will be able to create and use adhoc tags as they wish, and we will not have a suggested or limited tag set.
More about tagging:
http://support.google.com/groups/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1047904
More about searching groups:
http://support.google.com/groups/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2371405
Important: When searching for a tag the search term must be in quotes:
Kevin Powick
- AFAIK, tags cannot be applied to existing history, though there's not much for this group.
- It relies on authors to tag their posts. People will forget or just not want to bother.
- Duplicate, similar, and misspelled tags can lead to tag proliferation, diluting their effectiveness. i.e. mv, multi-value, multivalue,
Tony Gravagno
Great stuff, Kevin! Thanks.
The documentation on this new feature indeed states that only authors can maintain tags, but I was asked about that today by one of the other managers, so I looked into it. It turns out that despite the docs, other members can tag existing postings by other members if they are given permission to do so – and that applies to older postings as well.
That leaves us with an option. Should _everyone_ have the ability to modify tags in any posting, or should that be reserved to an authorized group? At least one of the managers is already in favor of allowing everyone the ability to tag any posting. Group moderators cannot take on this burden. However, in lieu of allowing access to all, we can create a new group of members that are authorized to do this.
Personally I don’t like the idea of allowing everyone access to all tags, but as always this is the opinion of one man only. I would feel awkward if someone mis-categorized something I wrote. But I’m not going to keep correcting tags, nor will I take an argument to the forum about how one of my postings was mis-categorized. There is no audit trail for this (yet) and we can’t track who might be a dyslexic Tourette’s sufferer (“index,shti,performance,apples”) who is chronically mis-tagging. J I see this as a vector for chaos, completely opposite of its intent to improve organization.
I like your point about standards, but that can’t be enforced without that group of authorized members to help “moderate”.
We have another group for testing and I’ll load up your starter list to see if there are any limits or other issues.
Taking your note about Questions to another thread…
Thanks again,
T
Symeon Breen
My view on tagging is that it is required on Stack Overflow because they get literally thousands of new topics each day, so you cannot just go to the home page and see the latest discussions, (unless you want to scroll through 30+ pages) you have to go down the tag route to see what the latest is on your topic of choice.
Mvdbms is not at that level of posts, I can go to the google groups page and see the latest topics for the last 4 weeks. If I need to search on something in particular then I do just that and search. So I don’t see it as being needed for mvdbms.
Rgds
Symeon Breen.
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Kevin Powick
On Wednesday, 28 March 2012 05:09:50 UTC-4, Symeonb wrote:
Mvdbms is not at that level of posts, I can go to the google groups page and see the latest topics for the last 4 weeks.
If I need to search on something in particular then I do just that and search. So I don’t see it as being needed for mvdbms.
Dawn Wolthuis
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Dawn M. Wolthuis
Take and give some delight today
David Morris
...and mvbase... there are still some of us going strong :-)
...and sb+ (sbplus?)
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Tony Gravagno
I should read more about this, but instead I'll just ask -- if you cannot put tags on something that has been posted, that would mean that you would need a way to apply a tag when posting by email or that we would lose our ability to post by email, which would not be a good thing. Do you know if it is possible to tag e-mailed postings? --dawn
From what I've read, tags are not supported via email, but an author can use the browser UI (BUI) to tag the thread after posting. I've requested the ability to tag using some inline mechanism.
It's tough to answer such questions or to know what's planned. Unlike most of the other Google Products, "Groups" no longer has a help/support forum. In their infinite wisdom, at some point they decided that the best way to stop people from complaining about the service, and to save their poor employees from user abuse, was simply to close down the forums and stop discussion about the service. That's right, you won't find a live and active group about Groups for members or managers, certainly nothing staffed by Google personnel. I haven't the words to express my dumbfoundedness. :^\
So why are we here? It's the only medium that most people were sure to agree on.
T
Symeon Breen
I dunno about your experiances, but if the word that you would tag is in the text, then a search will find it.
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Anthony Youngman
> On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:41:17 AM UTC-7, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:
>
> I should read more about this, but instead I'll just ask -- if you
> cannot put tags on something that has been posted, that would mean
> that you would need a way to apply a tag when posting by email or
> that we would lose our ability to post by email, which would not be
> a good thing. Do you know if it is possible to tag e-mailed
> postings? --dawn
>
>
>
> From what I've read, tags are not supported via email, but an author can
> use the browser UI (BUI) to tag the thread after posting. I've requested
> the ability to tag using some inline mechanism.
IF someone has any influence at Google :-) you can create mail headers,
and X- headers are explicitly undefined. If Google is happy to create an
X-Tag: header mail users can either put it in the mail header or as the
first line of the post.
I upload photos to Flickr by email, and that explicitly allows you to
tag with a special "tag" line - which is then abused :-( by people
uploading a bunch of unrelated photos in a single email with all the
photos sharing each others tags :-(
Could someone put that forward?
Cheers,
Wol
Kevin Powick
On Wednesday, 28 March 2012 13:48:49 UTC-4, Symeonb wrote:
I dunno about your experiances, but if the word that you would tag is in the text, then a search will find it.
Tony Gravagno
On the topic of Tagging…
Kevin is correct that no one will be forced to use tags.
We have various options to help tag content.
- Authors can voluntarily tag their own threads and we can have a “please don’t bother authors” policy to avoid trivial pestering about “hey, why didn’t you tag it with this word?”
- Some people can do the community a favor, and be given permission to add/change tags on any post, but without being group-wide managers.
- Everyone can be given the ability to tag any thread and we can only hope we don’t see petty discussions of mis-tagging. (We’ll never know who’s adding or removing tags.)
Kevin, you’ve delved a bit more deeply into what I said up-front about pre-defined tags. There are pros and cons to having a pre-defined set versus allowing ad-hoc entry. You guys should work out a consensus on that. Remember that we can do this with control groups. I’ve entered all of the suggested tags into a test group and it looks fine so far. Feel free to suggest new tags through the discussion here, even if it’s decided to not use them.
On the topic of features in general…
I’m fond of designing before coding, documentation before distribution, etc. So I tend to approach UI changes with an introduction to the users first. This should preclude having to disable a feature later, or having to reverse out some random implementation decision. This is a sensitive bunch too, and being pro-active can lead to the membership being harshly re-active.
I’ve been asked why we don’t just turn on all of the Google features. Well, that will lead to many UI changes that will prompt a lot of questions here. I think people here would prefer to talk about MV, and when there is something OT then I think it should be focused and not appear as a radical flurry of “hey, why did you mess with my UI, and what is all of this?”
For reference, managers are struggling with New Groups changes that were put upon us by Google. We need to go back to Old Groups to do some maintenance because some functionality isn’t yet in New Groups. I’m hoping to minimize the chances of something like this happening here.
All of this simply leans toward a more conservative approach regarding many kinds of change. If and when we turn on Tagging or other significant features, let’s take our time and do it right.
Regards,
T
From: Kevin Powick
… Tagging should offer the benefit of more easily filtering results.
I'm not sure why there is much discussion on activating the tagging feature. It will not force anyone to change how they work with the group in any way. It merely gives people the option of identifying posts with keywords, which may be of benefit for those seeking answers from historical posts..
jes
Kevin Powick
On Thursday, 29 March 2012 15:17:27 UTC-4, jes wrote:
Tony Gravagno
(General response)
For better or worse, the archive for CDP isn’t going anywhere. It’s still as searchable as this one and nothing more or less will happen over there than here. The data is all in the same place and in my opinion moving or restructuring it would be a waste of time. That said, from time to time Google does have problems with their archives.
Google doesn’t know or care that CDP is no longer being used for productive purposes. So there’s nothing prompting them to close it down. I’ve made inquiry about making that group read-only (at least as far as their servers are concerned) but Google is one of those “we’re too big to actually respond to anything” companies now, so getting any kind of action on data (groups, docs, accounts) is nearly impossible.
I also agree with Kevin on the value of that data anyway. Let’s move forward, not back. I’m hoping this group will serve as a platform for new people asking new questions – it’s a bonus if someone wants to link to CDP for an old answer.
Perhaps contradictorily… I think someone would be doing this community a service to use PickWiki to organize categories of topics, with pages that simply linked to relevant CDP threads. This could help to answer FAQs and provide historical context. How to do this?
1) Think of a topic.
2) Search CDP for related discussions.
3) Create a new PickWiki page (hopefully in a new organized section).
4) Paste in links to the CDP archive – not entire threads, just links.
5) Optional: Add comments about what the links are and why they are significant.
That’s not tough at all and could even be fun for the nostalgic.
T
Gene Buckle
> Google doesn't know or care that CDP is no longer being used for
> productive purposes. So there's nothing prompting them to close it
> down. I've made inquiry about making that group read-only (at least as
> far as their servers are concerned) but Google is one of those "we're
> too big to actually respond to anything" companies now, so getting any
> kind of action on data (groups, docs, accounts) is nearly impossible.
>
That is just silly Tony. comp.databases.pick is a newsgroup, not some
"google group" like mvdbms. If Google were to do something so
astonishingly stupid as to stop accepting traffic for the group, all that
would mean is posts from the thousands of other newsgroup servers would
never be seen by people that are stuck using Google as their newsreader of
choice.
I think what really galls me is that people got chased out of a perfectly
good newsgroup because they were incapable of ignoring a kook.
g.
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Tony Gravagno
Clicking that Tag button, you will be able to view topics by tag - of course at this moment nothing has been tagged but over time the list of hits for any tag will grow.
At the bottom of the New Post page you'll see Tags. Type a couple letters to see what's available. The list of tags is based on that which Kevin provided and with some additions. Authors are welcome to add new tags. Let's hope there isn't too much chaos. You guys can decide if a tag should be replaced and one of the managers may change it as time permits.
I hope this meets with expectations and approval.
If I've missed anything, it's a simple oversight, just let me know.
Thanks for comments here.
T
Kevin Powick
On Tuesday, 3 April 2012 19:38:35 UTC-4, Tony Gravagno wrote:
The tagging feature is now active.
Tony Gravagno
Clicking the Tag button as indicated in my last note - the complete list is there. While some Google routine attempts to guess a series of tag suggestions based on content, it's not very good yet - and no Google hasn't provided a way to see all tags from the Post page (seems a no brainer eh?).
Because people aren't likely to open a new window to go look at the list, I suspect we'll see an explosion of similar tags. Personally I'd like to keep the list locked for a while and add more on request, then open it up later, but I don't think that fits the culture here. Comments welcome.
BTW, I went back and tagged my posts here, took about 2 minutes. Perhaps other authors will go back and tag theirs now - there are only 112 topic to-date. Catching up should be trivial.
T
Kevin Powick
On Tuesday, 3 April 2012 23:47:17 UTC-4, Tony Gravagno wrote:
Clicking the Tag button as indicated in my last note - the complete list is there.
Personally I'd like to keep the list locked for a while and add more on request, then open it up later, but I don't think that fits the culture here.
Kevin Powick
On Tuesday, 3 April 2012 23:47:17 UTC-4, Tony Gravagno wrote:
BTW, I went back and tagged my posts here, took about 2 minutes. Perhaps other authors will go back and tag theirs now - there are only 112 topic to-date. Catching up should be trivial.
Colin
Tony Gravagno
Added algorithm, best-practices, virtual machine. Searches will reveal whatever tags we search, but that list is just a recommended list - a starting place.
As to searching by author or any other field, Colin provided a good tip. Another is to use this search page:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search
You'd think a multi-billion dollar company like Google would do better about making that page dove-tail with their New Groups features, and making searchability a key feature of new groups. Whatevah - I won't continue to bash Google, it is what it is and I'll just send them requests for enhancements.
I welcome anyone make further suggestions here for new tags, to email me off-list with new tags for the suggested list. I guess people can simply to add #tagname in replies to postings when they think a tag is appropriate. If and when we see those references, an author can edit their tag list, and/or one of the managers may add them to the suggestion list. (No commitments, this is volunteer work…)
It's been mentioned a number of times that this is a small list, that we aren't going to be using this or some other features too rigorously, etc. Full agreement there. I don't like making a big deal over little things. Over time, if this list lasts as long as CDP, it will be nice to have the features well established. So thanks to anyone reading this, for patience as this gets established, even if you don't think you'll ever use it. As it's been pointed out by many people before, if you're not interested in the topic, just ignore the thread while the rest of us get it sorted.
Regards,
T
TG@ remove.anti-spam.mungingNebula-RnD.com
From: Kevin Powick
… it makes me wish the group had a feature to filter posts by author.