PICK in other Countries

[Adam Sparks]

Hello all,

I was curious if PICK is really only a U.S thing or if it was ever able to permeate the DB market in other countries.

[christian cottet]

We are in france still alive ....

Le lun. 1 nov. 2021 à 20:27, Adam Sparks <adamspa...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Hello all,

I was curious if PICK is really only a U.S thing or if it was ever able to permeate the DB market in other countries.

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[Wol]

Well, INFORMATION was originally Australian, and pretty much owned the
Australian database market, along with a large chunk of the British
market. It also pretty much owned the travel industry, so it was pretty
widespread...

Cheers,
Wol

[Mike Preece]

I learnt "Pick" on a Microdata machine in New Zealand in 1981. Continued to work with "Pick" on various machines/flavours in the UK throughout the '80s and '90s, including some quite large installations - some of which were UK government departments. Also used it in Australia. Also worked for Temenos (providers of banking software) who had jBase and UniVerse installations all over the world. So yes, it did make it beyond US shores.

[Cleber Vieira Baptista]

DataPrev, a state-owned company. responsible for processing social 
security data in Brazil. I believe they still use MV. 30,000 to 50,000 licenses.

Em seg., 1 de nov. de 2021 às 16:27, Adam Sparks <adamspa...@gmail.com> escreveu:

Hello all,

I was curious if PICK is really only a U.S thing or if it was ever able to permeate the DB market in other countries.

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Cleber Vieira Baptista

+55

 61 8441-1663 Oi

 

[Lisa Levsen]

I know Multi Value users in South Africa and Australia.

Lisa Levsen

lle...@gmail.com

541-513-5623 Mobile

 

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[Osvaldo Djivelekian]

Hello all.

I'm from Argentina, a very small market of Universe. But we're still alive and kicking!

Regards.

Osvaldo.

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[Dick Thiot]

While there has been MultiValue in the states it was pretty much a secret.  However, in the UK, Australasia, and South Africa it was well known and accepted as a major DB platform and I believe it was even respected.  That was true in the 80's.  Currently, however, I believe that MultiValue is suffering the same fate all over the world.  Many companies are using it, many companies have applications where it is more or less an embedded database and most don't know what it is.

To this day, there is more MultiValue databases out there than you realize.

Dick  Thiot

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[Cleber Vieira Baptista]

Late 70's and early 80's. Pick was used by large Brazilian contractors who had businesses and works in Iraq. Several mining companies in Brazil used Pick. In addition to the largest dairy cooperative in Brazil. Unfortunately, the high price of licenses made many businesses unfeasible. One of the largest clinical analysis laboratory networks in Brazil, I think they abandoned D3 and used Caché MV.

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[KOSDAY SOLUTIONS]

Since the 1970s a state-owned company implemented PICK and since then Multivalue databases have been widely used. As a QM distributor in Spain my opinion agrees with Dick Thiot because end users are increasingly using MV without knowing it, thanks to SaaS. 

Another note for your internationalization list.... Linkar is a Spanish product.

Angel

[Martyn]

We (Revelation Software) still have a good number of VARs using OpenInsight in the UK and EMEA region and a lot of users, both direct and through our VAR channel.

The current OI WORKS promotion is interesting though.  The vast majority of interest has been from people in the Americas, with less interest in Europe and Australasia.  It's early days, but I do think that the biggest market by far for Pick was the USA. 

That said, at one point over 3/4 of the UK population was paid using an OpenInsight based system, pretty much the whole of the Social Care Workers in the UK used to use an OpenInsight based system and we still have national systems running at government level, one of our VARs currently have something like 80% market share in a secondary health care niche.  We have another that is making inroads into the legal market and others that continue to do well with both new licenses for their existing user base and brand new users buying their systems, one VAR in Wales is constantly on the industry award list.

Personally, I think that successful applications in todays market need to be fast, reliable, highly functional and pretty.  MV gives us the performance, stability and flexibility in our databases and products like OpenInsight & Evoke (to name just two) are giving MV developers the ability to easily built pretty user interfaces.  The Web and mobile apps are key, but in the business sector we still see a need for fast, secure and rich applications and remote access technologies are getting better and giving people the best of both. 

Anyway, I think that it is safe to say that MV was able to (and should still be able to) permeate the DB market in countries other than the USA. 

The trouble is that MV remains the IT industries best kept secret.  I recall one really interesting anecdote from an OpenInsight training course a few years ago.  We had a room of half a dozen developers with various technology backgrounds but all were new to OpenInsight and MV.  A day or two in, one of the SQL developers sat back, sighed and expressed his frustration at not knowing about this OpenInsight MV based technology sooner.  He was finding it so much easier and quicker than anything he had used before.  I can just imagine him going back to his SQL team manager and telling them that they should embrace MV and do twice as much in half the time.  The manager would then laugh and say not likely, I like the kudos of managing a large team and it looks good on my CV. 

Likewise, we are usually not allowed to celebrate the successes of our VARs because of NDAs.  When VARs and developers find MV, they often wish to keep that golden nugget to themselves and not share it with their competitors and risk losing their competitive advantage.  I can understand why.  For example, we had a finance company who were the 'only' supplier to meet a government imposed deadline for new features - why, because they were using a fast and flexible development environment.  We had another whose niche in primary healthcare was taken away from them by the UK government, within a couple of months they switch to a different niche and became successful in that.  My colleagues at Sprezzatura also worked on a pilot to join up numerous disparate government systems with data being dynamically shared amongst the various databases.  The big boys (note SQL, etc.) could not achieve what we did with OpenInsight and MV.  Why was the project not taken into production? - It was too cheap and the big boys were concerned about losing control to an unknown and the all hunkered down.

All of these examples are Europe based and just show that MV is widely used over here but it continues to be unknown for many reasons. 

Mike (Ruane), myself and everyone at Revelation continue to believe in MultiValue and we strongly believe that the technology can still find a place and be successful.  That is why we are running the current OI WORKS promotion, to support MV developers and to help them to modernize their systems. 

Sorry for the long answer but when I get started on MV and the frustrations of why it is not widely known ....

M. 

On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 7:27:56 PM UTC adamspa...@gmail.com wrote:

[Will Johnson]

I want to say that General Automation (makers of the Zebra, and others) was an Australian company

[Dick Thiot]

General Automation was in Irvine, CA. 

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[Wol]

On 02/11/2021 08:40, Martyn wrote:
> That said, at one point over 3/4 of the UK population was paid using an
> OpenInsight based system, pretty much the whole of the Social Care
> Workers in the UK used to use an OpenInsight based system and we still
> have national systems running at government level, one of our VARs
> currently have something like 80% market share in a secondary health
> care niche.  We have another that is making inroads into the legal
> market and others that continue to do well with both new licenses for
> their existing user base and brand new users buying their systems, one
> VAR in Wales is constantly on the industry award list.

I'm certain it was but I'm not sure about the latest state - HOLMES was
Based on - I believe - UniVerse.

That's Home Office Large and Major Enquiry System - the UK National
Police database for all big enquiries.

Cheers,
Wol

[Bob Markowitz]

And there were Sequoias in Russia...That being said, did you know that Evoke works with Sequoia Pick? Maybe not.

[izzizman]

BUT, no Free trial from Evoke ! BTW, OpenInsight 10.1 a FREE year of its WORKS program.  It's  a great way to reach out to MultiValue customers.

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[Martyn]

Thank you for the shout out about our current offer.  Much appreciated.

[Will Johnson]

Who am I thinking of then, that was in Australia?

Data General?  I'm sure there was a hardware vendor in Australia....

[euobeto]

Someone Talked about Brazil...
here we have only one distribuitor (Integral)
and as far as I know only one VAR ( ccotecnlogia)

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[Cleber Vieira Baptista]

https://www.integral.com.br/index.php/solucoes/db-d3/db-d3-revendas

MV has died or is dying in Brazil because of high license prices. QM with lower prices arrived late.

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[Dick Thiot]

Will,

I think that you may be remembering the original WICAT R83 implementation.  Lionel Singer licensed Pick from Pick Systems and implemented it on WICAT hardware.  WICAT then contracted with Lionel to sell Pick on WICAT worldwide except for AUSTRALASIA where Lionel would sell it.  He kicked it off the initial release with a big party that included Diana Ross (if memory serves).  They had gold colored toothpicks too.  WICAT was the first commercially released system with a Motorola 68000 CPU with many to follow including a number of Pick licensees like C. Itoh and General Automation.

Dick

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[geneb]

On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, Dick Thiot wrote:

> Will,
>
> I think that you may be remembering the original WICAT R83 implementation.
> Lionel Singer licensed Pick from Pick Systems and implemented it on WICAT
> hardware. WICAT then contracted with Lionel to sell Pick on WICAT

I have a couple of friends with WICAT systems, but they've only got Unix &
WMCS for them. If anyone has the WICAT distribution of R83, please ping
me off list.

tnx.

g.

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ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

[Gerd Förthmann]

AWA perhaps?
They sold re-badged Microdata machines (Royale, Sequel) in the 70s down-under before they later became GA and in the end merged with ADDS.

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[Martyn]

< MV has died or is dying in Brazil because of high license prices. QM with lower prices arrived late.>

This is so sad to hear and it pains me every time I hear this sort of thing.  I think that, people really need to focus on the total cost of ownership, rather than initial license fees.

Just a week or so ago, I was having a chat with someone about MV licensing and they were complaining about how expensive it is.  I will not go into the details of a half hour back and forth discussion, but (after he agreed that my argument was sound) we concluded that it would be better for me to give the company our development tools and nothing more, no support, no training, nothing.  Then triple our usual day rate for support and training down the line.  TBH, they would lose out massively, they would not be able to smoothly pay us on a paying client by paying client basis and they would be exposed to unplanned costs throughout the life of the product.  

I cannot talk for other MV vendors, but most OpenInsight based systems just run and run and run with a very, very low cost of ownership.  I recall being called into a major shoe retailer here in the UK some years ago.  It was a strange meeting request, with few up front details but I needed to support our VAR, so I attended.  I was quite for most of the meeting until the penny dropped.  I was being quizzed over the technology because it was the ONLY software product that they used which needed zero man hours or other costs to maintain it.  When they got an upgrade from the VAR it just worked.  There was no rebooting of the server each day, next to no database admin.  This was in stark contrast to most of the other (SQL based) systems which needed a dedicated DBA, regular reboots, upgrades took six months of headaches, etc. etc.  At the end of the meeting I was told that they were happy to pay the annuals based on their use experience.  

Of course, the trouble with this story is that we (the MV community) need prospects to give us a go.  Only those that do so, get to experience the real power and cost savings of most MV systems.

For full disclosure, I did stumble on the lack of young MV developers and a pool of readily available talent going forwards.  MV is still seen as an antiquated, out of date technology and developers usually want the latest things that looks good on their CV, that opens doors and gets them work.  Until things change, that is a hard one to argue against.

[Darren W]

Just from the top of my head ...

Pick in the UK : -

• Many UK Police forces use a Reality-based software application.
• Some UK council/local government systems are/were on Reality.
• A number of small to medium sized UK independent electrical retailers use a Reality based retail/POS/eCommerce application written and cloud-hosted by a software/services provider that devops using Reality.
• A large agricultural engineering equipment business in the UK uses Reality
• A large nationwide builders' merchant/retailer uses UniVerse
• At least one investment bank in London uses one of the Pick flavours (UniVerse?) 

Australia: -

There is a large hospital/healthcare system running on Reality in Australia

Puerto Rico: -

2 companies are using Reality in PR - one is a food manufacturer, the other a financial company.

[euobeto]

Hy Cleber... that list is outdated... i alreday called i few years ago all off then e the one that still in bussines with D3 are moving to another system

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[Darren Wragg]

I thought there was still an automotive car parts company in Brazil using D3 ?

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[euobeto]

It’s me with Cco hahah

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[Wol]

On 04/11/2021 09:54, Darren W wrote:
> A large nationwide builders' merchant/retailer uses UniVerse

This, I believe, is Travis Perkins. Who have had a couple of disasters
recently trying to transition away.

A bit like - I believe it was William Hill the bookmakers - who also
transitioned away and discovered it was a LOT harder than they thought
it would be. My favourite story from there was a post on one of the
mailing lists about the Oracle consultants being so proud that the new
system was now 10% faster than the old one. Until it was pointed out
that the new system was a twin-Xeon-800 (that dates this story :-) and
the old system was a Pentium-90.

Cheers,
Wol

[Tony Gravagno]

This is aside from other mentions of mostly English-speaking countries, and yes our Spanish-speaking colleagues in Spain and all over South America. Much of this is historical, within the last ten years or so, and I can't confirm current usage.

Pick Systems had offices in Paris and Moscow. D3 did/does support Russian and Thai.

Variants of MV were published by companies like InterTechnique and Siemens-Nixdorf for non-English markets.

In this group many years ago we had colleagues in Russia and Poland.

There was/is at least one nuclear power plant in Germany running MV.

Thanks to our partners at Kosday, "Nebula R&D Spain" has sold product in Europe.

There are end-users in Switzerland (QM?).

There are application providers and end-users in Italy.

T-Data Pty Ltd represented Pick Systems (RD, TL, etc) for the entire pacific rim.

There was an application running in Japan for many years - with screens rendering Kanji, Katakana, and Hiragana.

A baggage handling system for airlines was fitted with DesignBais many years ago and used internationally.

DesignBais also showed its multi-lingual prowess in their ads with an application written for China.

As noted, banks globally use MV. I've had exchanges with end-user banks in Saudi Arabia and Kenya.

We were contacted some years ago by a large CUBIC site in Hong Kong about a new front-end.

Current: We have many clients in Jordan running an MV application, both as SaaS and on-site, with the front-end GUI in Arabic. This is supported by a team of young developers in Amman.

So, yeah, Pick has certainly made its mark internationally. That's never been a question for those of us who have been here a while. The question is about how well it's officially represented. In the 80s-90s there was a huge amount of Pick piracy, so it's not unusual at all to find companies in odd nooks of the world running very old R83, AP, or mvBase. Since the MV companies generally don't publish material in languages other than English, and most don't have representation in non-English-speaking countries, of course that results in fewer developers who know about the platform and thus fewer end-users.

Language support has always been a lively topic of discussion as well, with questions about how well each platform supports Unicode and related details. The important factor here is about multi-byte handling in data, BASIC, sorting, internal "character" counts, etc. It's these kind of uncertainties that have discouraged non-English adoption, when relational platforms easily support all languages out of the box. MV is "capable" in this area. It just needs some TLC. :)

T

[grant.h...@gmail.com]

Hi All,

Multivalue in South Africa still has some very large clients, predominantly using Universe although some have moved to MVshar,p (sorry for the plug).

Autozone has 2000+ plus users on Universe in the motor spares industry.

Outsurance, probably the largest short term insurer has 1000+ users. Need to confirm the number but could be substantially more on Universe.

Supergroup logistics company has 500 plus users on Universe.

Brolink, a insurance broking company has 1000+ on MVsharp.

Liberty insurance company has a couple of hundred users on Universe.

ABSA bank in the vehicle finance business have 300+ users on MVsharp.

All the above are clients of mine or have been. Quite a few have spent very large sums of money to move off MV but have failed.

I don’t know much about the smaller user base but from what I hear there still many 100,s of smaller sites.

The market is not growing on the large end of the scale but we have had large ERP package, Embrace with over a hundred sites expanding into the USA and have ported to MVsharp.

If this looks like an [AD] I apologies but just my view of the MV market place.

Cheers

[Will Johnson]

I thought he was speaking of Home Depot.

They, or at least part of them, was using a Pick system as late as 2019

[Lisa Levsen]

Home Depot is still using MultiValue and will for at least 3 to 5 more years.

Lisa Levsen

lle...@gmail.com

541-513-5623 Mobile

 

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[Wol]

On 16/11/2021 18:44, 'Will Johnson' via Pick and MultiValue Databases wrote:
> I thought he was speaking of Home Depot.
> They, or at least part of them, was using a Pick system as late as 2019
>

Who on earth are Home Depot? NEVER seen one - oh of course I wouldn't -
as far as I know they are not in the UK ...

>
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 10:47:21 AM UTC-7 Wol wrote:
>
> On 04/11/2021 09:54, Darren W wrote:
> > A large nationwide builders' merchant/retailer uses UniVerse
>
> This, I believe, is Travis Perkins. Who have had a couple of disasters
> recently trying to transition away.
>
> A bit like - I believe it was William Hill the bookmakers - who also
> transitioned away and discovered it was a LOT harder than they thought
> it would be. My favourite story from there was a post on one of the
> mailing lists about the Oracle consultants being so proud that the new
> system was now 10% faster than the old one. Until it was pointed out
> that the new system was a twin-Xeon-800 (that dates this story :-) and
> the old system was a Pentium-90.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>

Cheers,
Wol

[geneb]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2021, Lisa Levsen wrote:

> Home Depot is still using MultiValue and will for at least 3 to 5 more
> years.
>

Lisa, any idea what flavor they're using?

[Lisa Levsen]

Hi Gene, 

I don't support them directly. Sorry I don't know the answer to your question.

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[geneb]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2021, Lisa Levsen wrote:

> Hi Gene,
>
> I don't support them directly. Sorry I don't know the answer to your
> question.
>

Rats. :)

Thanks!

[Will Johnson]

Here is a search that appears to be Home Depot Analyst jobs

Some are not computer analyst, but rather business analyst, but perhaps in this mess, some clue ?

https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Home%20Depot%20Analyst&l&vjk=d3248b9a58483e03

[John Horn]

I consulted with Home Depot Pro for a short time last year. They were using Universe. Note that this was not Home Depot proper, just the professional division.

 - John M. Horn

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[Will Johnson]

Where is that located?

[Dick Thiot]

I believe that this group is in Houston, Texas.

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[Art Martz]

On 11/17/21 2:41 PM, John Horn wrote:
> I consulted with Home Depot Pro for a short time last year. They were
> using Universe. Note that this was not Home Depot proper, just the
> professional division.
>
>  - John M. Horn

That is not correct.  Home Depot Pro (formerly Interline Brands) is
using Unidata.


HDPro is located in Jacksonville, Florida.  After the recent acquisition
of HDSupply, HDPro and HDSupply are being combined by Home Depot, to be
called HDSupply.  The new subsidiary will use the existing HDSupply SAP
system, which more closely aligns with the Corp Home Deport SAP systems.

So the Unidata system does have an estimated 3 to 5 year lifetime, as
the two subsidiaries are combined into one.

[Will Johnson]

There is a linkedin profile which reads: Universe DBA at Home Decorators /division of Home Depot

Austin, Texas, United State

[Art Martz]

On 11/24/21 1:37 PM, 'Will Johnson' via Pick and MultiValue Databases wrote:
> There is a linkedin profile which reads: Universe DBA at Home
> Decorators /division of Home Depot
> Austin, Texas, United State

That division is completely unrelated to HDPro.  And it was moved off
Universe a number of years ago.