Evaluating Express Stave notation

[John Keller]

I have been converting The Bach preludes and fugues and learning them.
And comparing reading the ES and TN versions.

So far I am up to book 1 number 19 in A major.

I have noticed it is easier to read the TN in many cases.
Specially in the case of mainly 2 part diatonic counterpoint.

Separate hands playing is often easier in ES because there is no or little hesitation.
But hands together is easier in TN without the changes in note-head colour and form.
Unless there is an overload of accidentals specially double sharps etc.

Occasional accidentals indicating a change in the scale or current key are seen ahead of time easily.
I experimented by putting some accidentals back into the ES and it helped.

This email is a test of googlegroups in starting a new topic.

Cheers,
John Keller

[John F]

Hi John K,

That worked fine. Did you do it on the web or just sending an email?

This is also a bit of a test. I'm replying on the website via the relevant button. It puts my text below yours, where in my email I usually start above the quoted text...it's awkward this way, because I want to quote part of your text and it's got to be done by copy-paste and adding quotation marks. How it all looks when I post, I don't know yet.

"I have been converting The Bach preludes and fugues and learning them.
And comparing reading the ES and TN versions.
So far I am up to book 1 number 19 in A major."

I have been doing something very similar for the last year.

So far I am up to book 1 number 1, and just the Prelude! On a good day, I can actually get through it without a mistake. :)

My Goldberg Aria is coming on nicely though, and my Chopin Prelude in E minor Op.28, No.4.

Also learning Invention Nos.1, 4 and 8 and occasionally having another go with Opening by Philip Glass.

Oh, and Jules Massenet's Méditation de Thaïs, thanks to Paul Barton https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieQFH99YJn8

This is all reading from TN.  I have yet to test "the other thing".

I would try reading more ES, but I fear my brain won't accommodate much information and if I put ES in, something important will fall out, like how to cross the road. Seriously, isn't there a danger reading too many systems that you get them mixed up? Maybe not if they're different enough.

Cheers,

JF

[Pashkuli Keyboard]

@John Keller
I am a bit confused or just out of touch with the conversation.

Where is the evaluation process? Is there a link to a website I am missing or not having access to such?
What is this Bach conversion and where?

P.s. Do not mind me, I am just curious.

[John Keller]

Hi JRF,

I did it by email, starting a new message to musicnotation@googlegroups.

Good you are persevering with TN. 

Yes i sometimes find in a new piece I misread, eg the bottom line of treble ES (L) is misread as Eb.

I also try some Clairnote occasionally. It is slow. I figure if Evael can speak 3 or more languages, I and my 9 students can cope with a few different notations.

They do TN, ES, plus sol-fa notes (the Degree Card strand). With emphasis on the sol-fa most, lately.

Have you developed a conversion method for your notation?

Re the Bach first prelude, have you seen my TN version where it is written just as chords? 

I have a student who plays it, and now sings the Ave Maria with it.

Cheers,

JK

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[John Keller]

By evaluation, i just mean i am reporting to this group how i am going with reading/learning these Bach pieces. Trying to be honest.

They are on my Wiki - J S Bach Prelude and Fugues 1 to 19 so far. WTC (Well Tempered Clavier)

Sorry I seemed to interupt your thread by changing the heading.

JK

 

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[J R Freestone]

Hi JK,

On 10/01/2022 21:46, John Keller wrote:

Hi JRF,

I did it by email, starting a new message to musicnotation@googlegroups.

Good you are persevering with TN.

When in Rome might as well speak ancient Latin.

Yes i sometimes find in a new piece I misread, eg the bottom line of treble ES (L) is misread as Eb.

That's odd. Do you know why that is? J (Eb) isn't even on a line.

I also try some Clairnote occasionally. It is slow. I figure if Evael can speak 3 or more languages, I and my 9 students can cope with a few different notations.

They do TN, ES, plus sol-fa notes (the Degree Card strand). With emphasis on the sol-fa most, lately.

Wow, I think we've got a whole AN research department right there.

Have you developed a conversion method for your notation?

The beginnings of one. It will import a music xml file and convert the main info - key sig., time sig., note pitches and durations - but I haven't got as far as dealing with chords yet, just monophonic parts, and nothing else - no expression, repeats, etc.. The scorewriter itself is also lacking a lot and needs a major edit. It doesn't recognise what kind of staff it needs to display, for instance, and it wouldn't know what to do with expression data, repeats, etc., if it found them in the file. Much work ahead.

Re the Bach first prelude, have you seen my TN version where it is written just as chords? 

I have a student who plays it, and now sings the Ave Maria with it.

Wow, no, I'd not seen that before. I'll print that out and see if it helps. It's one of those pieces where it's technically simple and you think, yeah I'll have this down in no time, but remembering the sequence of quite similar chords is tricky, and the repeated phrases make you easily lose your place reading it, so I see the value in just having the chords like that. Thought about doing it myself but I'm too lazy!

Well done.
JF

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[John Keller]

Hi JRF,

See my comments below.

On 11 Jan 2022, at 11:30 am, J R Freestone <j.r.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi JK,

On 10/01/2022 21:46, John Keller wrote:

Hi JRF,

I did it by email, starting a new message to musicnotation@googlegroups.

Good you are persevering with TN.

When in Rome might as well speak ancient Latin.

Yes i sometimes find in a new piece I misread, eg the bottom line of treble ES (L) is misread as Eb.

That's odd. Do you know why that is? J (Eb) isn't even on a line.

Yes it is, in a 3-flat key signature!

Specially if the L (your Y) on the edge line of ES is together with the lower I (V), it looks just like Eb and Bb below, in TN.

I also try some Clairnote occasionally. It is slow. I figure if Evael can speak 3 or more languages, I and my 9 students can cope with a few different notations.

They do TN, ES, plus sol-fa notes (the Degree Card strand). With emphasis on the sol-fa most, lately.

Wow, I think we've got a whole AN research department right there.

Have you developed a conversion method for your notation?

The beginnings of one. It will import a music xml file and convert the main info - key sig., time sig., note pitches and durations - but I haven't got as far as dealing with chords yet, just monophonic parts, and nothing else - no expression, repeats, etc.. The scorewriter itself is also lacking a lot and needs a major edit. It doesn't recognise what kind of staff it needs to display, for instance, and it wouldn't know what to do with expression data, repeats, etc., if it found them in the file. Much work ahead.

What is the “scorewriter”?

Re the Bach first prelude, have you seen my TN version where it is written just as chords? 

I have a student who plays it, and now sings the Ave Maria with it.

Wow, no, I'd not seen that before. I'll print that out and see if it helps. It's one of those pieces where it's technically simple and you think, yeah I'll have this down in no time, but remembering the sequence of quite similar chords is tricky, and the repeated phrases make you easily lose your place reading it, so I see the value in just having the chords like that. Thought about doing it myself but I'm too lazy!

Yes, memorising it is hard but that is good for making students read by intervals.

And yes, it is useful to have all the bar numbers written in so I can tell them which bar number to go from.

 

Well done.

Thanks!

JK

———————————————————

[J R Freestone]

Hi JK

I'll continue with the indented replies, although it's getting very dense...

On 11/01/2022 03:30, John Keller wrote:

Hi JRF,

See my comments below.

On 11 Jan 2022, at 11:30 am, J R Freestone <j.r.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi JK,

On 10/01/2022 21:46, John Keller wrote:

Hi JRF,

I did it by email, starting a new message to musicnotation@googlegroups.

Good you are persevering with TN.

When in Rome might as well speak ancient Latin.

Yes i sometimes find in a new piece I misread, eg the bottom line of treble ES (L) is misread as Eb.

That's odd. Do you know why that is? J (Eb) isn't even on a line.

Yes it is, in a 3-flat key signature!

Specially if the L (your Y) on the edge line of ES is together with the lower I (V), it looks just like Eb and Bb below, in TN.

I see what you mean. I was just saying that J isn't on a line, so it's odd you mistake it for L, which is. But I see you mean you interpret it according to TN instead of ES. This is what I was concerned about and why I don't want to learn too many. But I imagine reading TN is a bit like driving or walking somewhere to you - so automatic you hardly notice you're doing it!

I also try some Clairnote occasionally. It is slow. I figure if Evael can speak 3 or more languages, I and my 9 students can cope with a few different notations.

They do TN, ES, plus sol-fa notes (the Degree Card strand). With emphasis on the sol-fa most, lately.

Wow, I think we've got a whole AN research department right there.

Have you developed a conversion method for your notation?

The beginnings of one. It will import a music xml file and convert the main info - key sig., time sig., note pitches and durations - but I haven't got as far as dealing with chords yet, just monophonic parts, and nothing else - no expression, repeats, etc.. The scorewriter itself is also lacking a lot and needs a major edit. It doesn't recognise what kind of staff it needs to display, for instance, and it wouldn't know what to do with expression data, repeats, etc., if it found them in the file. Much work ahead.

What is the “scorewriter”?

It's just the general term for software like Finale or Sibelius (although they're usually for TN of course). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorewriter

All the best,
John F
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