My experience with the Chromatone

[Dominique Waller]

Dear Dan and Troy,

You both asked me [DW] for some feedback on my experience with the
Chromatone CRT-12. As promised, these are excerpts of conversations
I’ve had with Paul Vandervoort [PV] recently which summarize quite
clearly I think how I feel about the Chromatone. For those of you who
don’t know him, Paul is currently working a on a 5-rows Janko-like
keyboard that he hopes to commercialize one day when he has finished.
Feel free to comment.

DW: The fact is that I’m changing my mind on Janko keyboards. Here’s
why.
Recently, almost accidently, I found out that by removing all the
buttons on my Chromatone I had access to the inner structure of the
keyboard, and that this structure could be easily modified and
hopefully converted into common piano keys, for it is made of long and
short plastic keys alternatively with plastic ridges to support the
buttons of the keyboard itself. I bought a little machine and chopped
off the ridges, so I was left with a keyboard of flat keys that I’ve
colored in black and white. Then I had something that resembled the
chromatic piano of my dreams. But those keys are too narrow, and the
keyboard is not comfortable at all at this stage. I hope to get things
better by adding little wooden platforms on the short keys, but this
won’t change their dimensions anyway.
As you know, my progress on the Chromatone has not been as fast as I
hoped. As there are six rows, I was left with a lot of fingering
choices to make, which is too much for a beginner without specific
method or teacher. When reading a Bach piece in my own cipher
notation, I had to specify for each note the row (in Roman figures)
and the finger, and that means a lot of preparation.
On my modified Chromatone, I’ve tried to read my cipher notation and I
was deeply relieved not having to worry about rows. As someone noticed
recently on the MNP forum, as fingers can slide forwards and backwards
along the keys on a current piano it’s like there were several rows
altogether. It was the first time I could train myself on a prototype
of that sort. The simplicity of the two-row keyboard is very
comfortable, at least when reading a musical part.
Maybe the Janko layout was easy for someone like you who had a good
training on piano prior to trying the Janko I’m sorry if I disappoint
you. I hope you’ll keep me informed of your progress anyway, as I can
change my mind once more…

PV: I understand why you feel this way. However I believe that if you
had a good teacher who was skilled at playing and fingering a Janko,
you would find that the Janko is a joy to play. I will now give you a
brief lesson in Janko fingering. My simple suggestions below are
consistent with the Janko instruction booklets which were published in
the 1890s.
1. The bottom two rows are for the thumbs only.
2. Never play the top two rows with a thumb.
3. When you play an octave with one hand using the thumb and little
finger, the thumb should be two rows lower than the little finger.
4. As much as possible, try to keep the thumb on rows which are lower
than the rows which the other fingers of the same hand are using.
I may have some sort of natural gift for solving such problems as
fingerings. However, I can assure you that, after a while, it becomes
fast and easy to determine comfortable Janko fingerings for most any
piece of music. I have two Janko different fingering instruction
booklets from the 1890s.

PV: I scanned my photocopies of two Janko instruction books for you.
These were published in the 1890s. I haven't taken the time to review
them thoroughly. There are a few fingerings which I disagree with.
Like many such things, different people will have different
preferences.
These books use a method of fingering notation which adds dots above
and below the finger numbers to indicate, respectively, the upper two
or the lower two rows (assuming a six-row Janko keyboard). You may
find this notation method interesting.

DW: These rules [1.-4.] I have applied almost completely, not from the
start, but later on when I thought on the particularities of the
keyboard that I should take advantage of when playing.
I notice that you were used to a chromatic keyboard since 1973! We
don’t start from the same point. In this case it’s no surprise that
you feel comfortable on the Janko, having trained yourself at an early
age on an isomorphic layout. And you were probably already trained on
the piano as well, am I right?
My hope is to be able to play, on a much more rational basis, pieces
of interest like Bach, Debussy and jazz too. To reach this goal, I
count on two cumulative innovations: a simplified notation (the
numerical system that I’ve invented) and a simplified instrument
(isomorphic layout). I’ve edited musical parts in my system and I’ve
been since testing myself in all kinds of combination: TN on a
classical instrument; TN on an isomorphic instrument; new notation on
a classical instrument; and of course new notation on an isomorphic
instrument. I play drums, I’ve tuned my guitar in fourths and tried
the Chromatone and now the chromatic piano. My conclusion is that the
problem doesn’t come from the reading, as I’m now accustomed to my own
notation system.
The second point is that I’m not thinking for myself only, but on the
likely success that those innovations could meet in the general
public. In other words, are those inventions things that we could
promote on a general scale and especially among beginners of all
ages?
Maybe I’m wrong (Jim Plamondon would probably say I am) but I believe
that to get public success, we should promote things that resemble the
old; a notation that looks like a music notation and instruments that
look like already well-known instruments. That’s why I’m so much in
favor of the black and white coloring. It’s not only for visual
orientation – as one could imagine other efficient colorings – it’s
because it’s so important to underline that the new keyboard was not
made for playing atonal music; and so that anyone could still see the
diatonic into the chromatic. The first thing that the average mother
will ask you before buying it to little Johnny is “Where is C on your
keyboard?” The fact that C is a white key on the lower row is made to
reassure everyone, I think. And besides, I haven’t felt that those
fingerings were so much different than on the classical piano. (I’m
not talking about rows here of course, only fingers). I’ve used a very
popular piano method for children for advice and found that fingers
indications worked as well most of the times!
So deciphering on a chromatic piano doesn’t seem difficult to me.
There are four steps:
1. Learn where are the notes on the keyboard. This can be achieved
very quickly by drawing a map of a keyboard octave with the twelve
numerical codes of the notation (which therefore works as a tablature
as well).
2. Read the musical part and try to play it.
3. Decide which fingers to use for each note or so and add it on the
musical part.
4. Play the piece and learn it.
On my Chromatone, step 1 was itself more difficult. There are so many
keys that even with notes repeating themselves every pair of rows, my
mind was confused and the “map” wasn’t ever totally clear. Hence I
felt unsure.
And then another step was added: decide which row to play for almost
every note. That means five steps instead of four.

PV: There are many improved notation systems as well. However, I will
certainly acknowledge that the massive quantity of conventional
keyboards and conventional notation materials makes promotion of
alternatives much more difficult. Nevertheless, I do believe that a
market can be developed for alternative keyboards. It will take time.
As I said, there is a trade-off between the simplicity of a Robbins
keyboard [chromatic piano] and the large finger clearance of a Janko.
I submit to you, having played both keyboards extensively, that the
complexity of the Janko is a temporary intellectual challenge which
can be mastered and effectively transcended. However, the narrow
finger clearance of a Robbins (and, to a lesser extent, a conventional
keyboard) present a physical challenge which will forever hinder the
musician's ease, comfort, and speed. The longer you practice the
faster you can play, of course, but the "speed limit" (so to speak) of
a Janko is simply much faster than that of the other keyboards. I
can't over-emphasize how important this factor is. It really matters
a lot.

Cheers to all!
Dominique Waller

[Dan Lindgren]

Thank you very much, Dominique!

I know from personal experience with the chromatic button
accordion that these skills take many years to develop.

Dan


On 19 Okt, 18:04, Dominique Waller <dominique.wal...@wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

[Michael Johnston]

> I know from personal experience with the chromatic button
> accordion that these skills take many years to develop.

Oooh! I watched a segment on how accordians are made on TV -- super
complex mechanical stuff inside, for sure. Playing them seems much
simpler than building them. <g>

And, I do not know enough to know whether the Hohner that they showed
being made was 'chromatic button' or not, but there were a lot of buttons!

Cheers!
Michael
--
MICHAEL'S MUSIC SERVICE 4146 Sheridan Dr, Charlotte, NC 28205
704-567-1066 ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **
http://michaelsmusicservice.com "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

[Dan Lindgren]

Michael,

If it doesn't have any piano keys, then it's either a chromatic
button accordion or a diatonic accordion of some kind.

Here are some related YouTube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=Va5FxXJpT5E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcMHiAxB-jQ&NR=1

Dan

On 19 Okt, 19:53, Michael Johnston <mich...@michaelsmusicservice.com>
wrote:

> 704-567-1066   ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **http://michaelsmusicservice.com   "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

[Paul W Morris]

Dominique, Good to hear about your experience. I wonder if it would
help to simplify things by only using 4 rows at a time, 2 for fingers,
2 for thumbs. Maybe even blocking off the top two rows at first. This
is basically as Paul V suggested. That would really limit the
fingering options and make things simpler to start with. Then you
could add in more rows and fingering possibilities later.

I've also tried, two separate times, tuning my guitar in 4ths, but
have not been satisfied with it. Maybe I'm just too used to the
standard tuning, but straight 4ths seems to make chords much harder to
play -- further to stretch with your fingers. (And I play rhythm more
than lead, so...)

Paul M

[Dominique Waller]

Hi Paul,

> I wonder if it would help to simplify things by only using 4 rows
at a time, 2 for fingers,
2 for thumbs. Maybe even blocking off the top two rows at first

I think I understand what you mean. I've even tried to simulate
playing on a two-rows keyboard by excluding the leaving rows. But the
fact is that the keyboard, by the size and form of its buttons, is not
made for this. You don't have the same feeling than on a piano. Paul
Vandervoort's keyboard will probably more approximate the touch of a
piano key.

The second thing is the reading problem. I've said that my commentary
must be taken as the point of view of an amateur who wants to read a
musical part, not the one of a skilled improviser that wants to jump
from row to row (even though I wished to play jazz too). When you try
a piece on an ordinary piano, you may have to select between different
possible fingerings, but you at least have the simplicity of a note-to-
note correspondence between notes on the staff and keys on the
keyboard (in this regard a guitar is more complicated). The mental
comfort of this simple correspondence is essential to a beginner. And
if the keyboard is isomorphic, and if you read a chromatic notation,
than you cumulate the maximum of simplicity and may learn easily. It's
like reading a tablature.
It should be remembered that at the time when the Janko was invented,
Franz Liszt was a leading figure and a crazed hysteria about piano
virtuosos was passing through Europe. The Janko keyboard was invented
in the context of this crave for virtuosity. Nowadays things have
changed, and the last hysteria of that kind was about rock guitar
players...

>Maybe I'm just too used to the standard tuning, but straight 4ths seems to make chords much harder to
> play -- further to stretch with your fingers. (And I play rhythm more
> than lead, so...)

Yes, I've been assaulted by doubts when I realized that the most easy
chords on the guitar (like Em) were becoming nearly impossible when
tuned by 4ths. But some chords are themselves difficult with the
ordinary tuning (Bb7) and become simpler with the new one... At the
end, you realize there are AT LEAST as many easy chords as before.
It's just that they simply don't appear in the same order, nor when
when would expect them. For some tunes, the solution is to simply play
in F what you usely played in E, and sing a half-tone higher... But
there is not such a difference with songs based on C, G or D. I hope
one day I'll publish a catalogue of those new chords. Cheers!

Dominique

> > Dominique Waller- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

[Michael Johnston]

Dan, the second link was to the bit I saw on TV -- it showed a piano
keyboard and the buttons.

> If it doesn't have any piano keys, then it's either a chromatic
> button accordion or a diatonic accordion of some kind.

Are there non-toy accordians with *NO* piano keys at all? I am sure that
somebody has made one, but I mean to ask is there a parallel line that's
played by people? Every accordianist I've ever seen and known has played
the Hohner style with keys on one side and buttons on the other.

Now, that I stretch the gray matter, I think Doug showed me a link to an
all-button model, perhaps based on Janko. I'm not sure.

It may be that a portable, non-electric instrument might make a great
way to demonstrate new ideas. I know it makes me seem like an old fogey,
but MIDI controllers are of limited interest to me because no performing
musician I know ever uses them, ever. In the past month, I've heard a
bang-up Prokofiev piano concerto on a Steinway and an young violinist
tear up the Bruch violin concerto #1 with our local symphony. She
advertised her violin as a Guarnieri. Nobody in our local arts scene
ever considers electronic instruments or controllers except as novelties
like the Theramin. (And, yes, I know a Theramin player! She's a singer,
too, and it turns out that these two abilities interweave nicely.)

[Paul Vandervoort]

Paul W Morris wrote:
> I wonder if it would
> help to simplify things by only using 4 rows at a time, 2 for fingers,
> 2 for thumbs. Maybe even blocking off the top two rows at first. This
> is basically as Paul V suggested. That would really limit the
> fingering options and make things simpler to start with. Then you
> could add in more rows and fingering possibilities later.
>

I played four-row Jankos professionally for fifteen years. Finally I
concluded that five rows is better, at least for piano orientation (as
opposed to accordion orientation). The reason: With a four-row Janko,
all chords must be fingered using no more than three adjacent rows, in
order for them to be transposable to all keys. For chords which span
(and include) an octave, this requirement usually forces the two octave
notes to be played in the same row. I play these types of chords
frequently, as I believe many musicians do. Playing octaves in the same
row forces a twisting of the wrist--particularly when both hands are
playing octaves near the center of the keyboard. If the musician is
heavy-set, then the problem is exacerbated further.

With a five-row or six-row Janko keyboard, octave chords can be played
using four adjacent rows with the thumb two rows lower than the fourth
or fifth finger (an octave away). This is much more comfortable and
ergonomic.

The process of switching to a five-row Janko took a significant amount
of time for me. Perhaps this was because I had played the four-row for
so many years. I wish I had started on the five-row to begin with.

Paul V.

[Doug Keislar]

Thanks for relating your experience, Paul.

Do you have any thoughts on the Chromatone's button shape with respect to ergonomics?  You adopted Janko's use of rectangular keys, whereas the Chromatone's buttons look approximately circular.  In playing a regular piano, the rectangular keys allow a choice of front-to-back position on a particular key, which is useful when playing chords and even melodies, given that fingers are different lengths.  Maybe on a multi-row isomorphic layout this isn't quite so critical, but what is your experience in this regard with a Janko layout?  Would you find your hand more cramped with what I think is a smaller front-to-back dimension on a Chromatone?  I'm guessing that the Janko keys are both longer and narrower than the Chromatone buttons; does that seem correct?

Doug

[Paul Vandervoort]

Doug-

I've never played a Chromatone. I don't understand the ergonomic or
functional rationale for making the keys circular. My hunch is that it
is, essentially, a decision based on aesthetics.
(More comments below)

Doug Keislar wrote:
> In playing a regular piano, the rectangular keys allow a choice of
> front-to-back position on a particular key, which is useful when
> playing chords and even melodies, given that fingers are different
> lengths.

Yes.

> Maybe on a multi-row isomorphic layout this isn't quite so critical,
> but what is your experience in this regard with a Janko layout? Would
> you find your hand more cramped with what I think is a smaller
> front-to-back dimension on a Chromatone?

I expect that I would. My hands are average size, perhaps a bit on the
small side. I find that my hand can span four rows comfortably on my
keyboard (with thumb & fifth finger playing an octave two rows apart).
Perhaps Mr. Wataru is thinking that musicians might sometimes want to
span five rows. I see no need for this option, and it seems to me that
this would only add complexity. Besides, there are only five uniform
rows on the keyboard anyway (the keys of the sixth and seventh rows are
not shaped as the rest).

Another advantage of rectangular keys is that the full key width is
available to each finger for the full (front-to-rear) depth of the row
(minus a small gap at the rear of each key). This feature means that
the left-right margin for error (for successfully striking the key) is
at maximum for the entire depth. And, as you eluded, the front-to-rear
margin for error is larger, since (I believe) each row is deeper.

Rectangular keys also help with left-right orientation, since the left
and right key edges are always available to be felt by the fingertips.
Hence these edges provide a consistent left-right position indication.

> I'm guessing that the Janko keys are both longer and narrower than the
> Chromatone buttons; does that seem correct?

I'm not sure of the dimensions of Chromatone keys, but the web site says
that the octave is 14cm. From looking at the photo, I'm calculating
that the front-rear depth of each row is ~ 0.92" / 2.33cm. I don't know
whether the rows are terraced (like a Janko) (Dominique?). I hope they
are, because I play half-step grace notes and "grace chords" a lot.

The basic dimensions of my keyboard:
Octave: 5.1" / 12.96cm
Whole step: 0.85" / 2.16cm
Height of each row (relative to an adjacent row): 0.4" / 1.02cm (This
dimension may be determined, in part, by the vertical key stroke. My
key stroke is ~0.3" / .76cm plus pad compression)
Front-rear depth of each row (measured form the front of a key to the
front of a key in an adjacent row): 1.123" / 2.85cm]

My 1892 Decker Bros. Janko:
Octave: 4.78" / 12.15cm
Whole step: 0.8" / 2.03cm
Front-rear depth of each row: ~1.04" / 2.6cm

The Chromatone actually looks like a pretty cool instrument. I'd love
to play one (with the black keys colored black). Perhaps there's a good
utilitarian reason for making the keys circular. Or, to quote Jim
Plamondon, m.I.m.s.

Paul V.

[Paul W Morris]

My hands are average size, perhaps a bit on the small side.  I find that my hand can span four rows comfortably on my

keyboard (with thumb & fifth finger playing an octave two rows apart). Perhaps Mr. Wataru is thinking that musicians might sometimes want to span five rows.

Or maybe the average hand size is smaller in Japan?  Or maybe they're aiming it at children with their children-sized hands?  Many of their images show children playing it.  Just speculating...

Paul M 

[Paul Vandervoort]

I see now when I go here::
http://tinyurl.com/yg8645g
and click on "What is Chromatone?" that the Chromatone is terraced.

Paul V.

[PJP...@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/19/2009 12:04:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dominiqu...@wanadoo.fr writes:

As you know, my progress on the Chromatone has not been as fast as I
hoped. As there are six rows, I was left with a lot of fingering
choices to make, which is too much for a beginner without specific
method or teacher. When reading a Bach piece in my own cipher
notation, I had to specify for each note the row (in Roman figures)
and the finger, and that means a lot of preparation.

Hi Dominique;

 

I purchased one of PV's 4 row keyboards - I had previously studied drums, piano and composition. I didn't intend to relearn my piano repatorie on the 4 row Janko. In the beginning free improvising was lots of fun - 1,2,3,or 4 rows........

 

I found reading confusing also since my mind and hands we very conditioned to the 2 row 7-5. I started using 'the theory of the new keyboard' which was the basic book from the NY conservatory for Paul von Janko keyboard - which shows the major and minor scale patterns on 2 rows. So on 2 rows I can play all my major and minor modes, chromatic scales, whole tone, diminished and half diminished........(2 rows works if you think of the whole keyboard as 3 - 2 row keyboards)

   

     Also there is a diagram of Paul Vandervoorts 4 row with the major scale pattern on 3 rows, and can be applied to any scale etc. (My original interest in the Janko was its different note layout, I'm a composer so I figured it would inspire different music, by breaking down old playing habits......I believe learning something new helps the creative process.)

    

    I notated a bunch of music with my slightly altered traditional notation. it takes time to choose and write out fingerings (as well as practice) I use a visual color cue for the top 2 rows (a red dot for the white keys and a blue dot for the black keys) so in the notation the red and blue notes point you to the 2 upper rows.

 

    So Its worth learning - having a background in the 7-5 keyboard I don't think makes any difference - once you have spent the time to learn the basics of getting around the instrument, with notation and by ear

(which believe me on any instrument is a labor of love, as well as investment of time and concentration).

 

I think the "selling point" of the isomorphic layout being "easier"or "faster" to learn is misleading (I did find learning basic scales easier to learn) I think it would be easier if there were teachers who were accomplished on the 6-6 layout - that would help the first few years of skill development........its hard to teach yourself. Music was never easy for me - knowing many musicians, All have strengths and weakness' in different areas

what's easy for some isn't easy for others (so we work on our areas of weekness)

 

Hopefully that's food for thought -

 

Regards; PaulPb

 

[Paul Vandervoort]

PJP...@aol.com wrote:
> I started using 'the theory of the new keyboard' which was the basic
> book from the NY conservatory for Paul von Janko keyboard - which
> shows the major and minor scale patterns on 2 rows.

Huh? Wha....? Two rows?

> Also there is a diagram of Paul Vandervoorts 4 row with the major
> scale pattern on 3 rows, and can be applied to any scale etc.

Paul, I think you're talking about this fingering (right hand, C major
scale):

Begin on the middle row (3rd row) C with the index finger (finger 2).
Middle finger (finger 3) on D in the same middle row.
Ring finger (finger 4) on E in the same middle row.
Thumb on F in the next lower row (row 2).
Index finger on G two rows higher (row 4).
Middle finger on A, same row (row 4).
Thumb on B in row 2.
Index finger on C in row 3. Now you’re back where you started, one
octave higher, so you can continue up with the same fingering, if you wish.

This is the same fingering shown in the upper left, third page of
"Theory of the New Keyboard".

Paul V.

[Dan Lindgren]

Michael,

In many countries the CBA (chromatic button accordion) is
more common than the piano accordion. Some of those
instruments are definitely not toys <g> - they can have up to
10 000 "hand made" parts and will cost you the equivalent
of a brand new car(!) - they are often referred to as Bayans.

I don't know of anyone who makes Janko (or Reuther)
accordions anymore. The CBAs can have a better
range/reach than the Janko layout allows.

Here are some pictures of Reuther accordions:

http://www.accordionpage.com/ua_aticle.html

Here is a YouTube video featuring a digital CBA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=SfKFGEgePtg

Dan

On 20 Okt, 22:06, Michael Johnston <mich...@michaelsmusicservice.com>
wrote:

> 704-567-1066   ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **http://michaelsmusicservice.com   "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

[Dominique WALLER]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your advice and commentary.

Regards

Dominique

> Message du 21/10/09 05:54
> De : PJP...@aol.com
> A : musicn...@googlegroups.com
> Copie à :
> Objet : [MNP] Re: My experience with the Chromatone

[Michael Johnston]

> I don't know of anyone who makes Janko (or Reuther)
> accordions anymore. The CBAs can have a better
> range/reach than the Janko layout allows.

Did they just not catch on? Were they considerably more expensive than
the piano-key models? From the photo, the keys certainly look large
enough to work easily.

> Here are some pictures of Reuther accordions:
> http://www.accordionpage.com/ua_aticle.html

Wow! George Shearing plays the Reuther accordian! I'm glad to see this
photo, being myself a fan of George's music and style.

Thanks.

[Dan Lindgren]

Michael asked:

> Did they just not catch on? Were they considerably more
> expensive than the piano-key models?

I'm not sure how expensive they were in those days.
A Reuther accordion could probably be custom-made by
some of the accordion makers out there today, although
it would most likely be very expensive.

Dan

[O.E. Soriano]

Hello All,

I thought I'd necro this thread to say that I bought a Chromatone about two and half-months ago, and have been transitioning from traditional piano to Chromatone ever since.

In a week or two, I plan on making a few videos documenting my progress and the theories of playing it that I am developing.  In the meantime, you guys can check out the three videos I made on it when I first got it:

Chromatone: First Impressions
http://youtu.be/H3TQ7cftMQM?list=UUPkVbHOZzjWC3wRikiy7Ppg

Chromatone: Second Impressions:
http://youtu.be/yHyxPcm_7mM?list=UUPkVbHOZzjWC3wRikiy7Ppg

Chromatone: The Tri-Color Scheme and Diminished Scales
http://youtu.be/xAec7LyFJW0

Any feedback would be great.

- OS

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Hi, Mr. Soriano :)

Nice to hear and see you are playing the Chromatone. Hope one day I could buy the Red Wholetone in order to replace its keys with those I have designed.

The Tri-color scheme is also Roy Pertchik's way of coloring keys I think.

Thanks for the videos with up close explanation.

Mr. Soriano,
I think it would be a good idea to make a video showing the profile of the layout front, top, side, the number of the keys, clearance and distances and more technical aspcets of the design.

I still believe i have made a beter design of the keys for a Janko keyboard layout! :)

[Music Integrated Solution]

About the tri-color orientation method I have to say that it is way less efficient than the two-color method of the positional symbols, the tri-color discriminates only three notes while the positional two-color discriminates six notes:

Tri-color -> three notes

Two-color -> six notes

http://musicintegratedsolution.blogspot.com/2014/06/lets-try-some-post-without-words.html

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[O.E. Soriano]

The Tri-color scheme is also Roy Pertchik's way of coloring keys I think.

Roy does indeed have the patent on the Tri-chromatic scheme, and I always credit him in some way or another in anything I go public with about the chromatone.

I think it would be a good idea to make a video showing the profile of the layout front, top, side, the number of the keys, clearance and distances and more technical aspcets of the design.

Maybe I'll do that at some point.  I have a list of about five videos I need to make, so I am a bit behind!

I still believe i have made a better design of the keys for a Janko keyboard layout! :)

You may very well be able to create a better button system.  As much as I am in love with the Chromatone (It is my dream instrument which I pondered buying for five years before I finally dove in) I am honest about its shortcomings.  The buttons do not, to me, feel as groovy as regular piano keys.  I compare the action on playing the chromatone vs reg piano to chewing on turkey vs chewing on chicken: its "gamier." I also find that I have to concentrate on swinging whereas swinging comes more naturally on the reg piano; although that may be because I noodled around on the reg piano for about 10 years (and on my last year I practiced very seriously), so maybe the automatic swinging will come with time.

I might switch over to Paul Vandevoort's midi controller if it ever becomes commercially available, because its layout is mentally identical to the chromatone (so there would be very little re-learning) and yet from the look of it the keys seem like they feel more like reg piano keys, which is awesome.  With that said, I would definitely color the keys according to the Tri-Chromatic scheme, cause its really profound.

About the tri-color orientation method I have to say that it is way less efficient than the two-color method of the positional symbols, the tri-color discriminates only three notes while the positional two-color discriminates six notes:

Tri-color -> three notes

Two-color -> six notes

To each their own, and that two-color system, with which I am not familiar, may indeed be superior.  But for those of us are, specifically, interested in Barry Harris' Jazz theories, and. more generally, Jazz as a whole, really dig the Tri-Chromatic scheme because it brings to the forefront diminished scales, which we look at as a set of "corridors" through which we travel in between key-centers. Many of us consider the diminished scale to be the most logical way of organizing the piano keyboard.

Symmetrical scales, like the half-diminished scale, and the 6th diminished scale, and Tri-Chromatic coloring go together like bread and butter.

 

[Music Integrated Solution]

I made the comment because these two orientation methods expose directly exactly the same interval relationships; the difference is that with fewer colors it is able to discriminate twice more notes

but it should be said also that the polemic 7/5 of the piano is the most efficient, which discriminates 12 notes with just two colors, while the 6/6 discriminates only two notes with two colors.

Enrique.

--

[Keislar, Doug]

Enrique,

Can you explain what you mean?  Exactly which kind of 6-6 keyboard are you thinking of?  A 6-6 keyboard that has an asymmetrical coloring pattern (such as the original Janko or the layouts here: http://www.balanced-keyboard.com/Layout.aspx) allows one to discriminate all 12 notes with two colors. 

It is true there have been a few 6-6 keyboard designs with symmetrical coloring (e.g., one whole-tone scale all white and the other all black), not to mention uniform coloring (all one color) like the Chromatone, but these seem to be misguided choices.

The two colors of the traditional keyboard are more incidental; one can discriminate the pitches even without any coloring, because of the irregular physical structure.

Doug

---

From: musicn...@googlegroups.com [musicn...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Music Integrated Solution [mtall...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:58 AM
To: musicnotation
Subject: Re: [MNP] Re: My experience with the Chromatone

[O.E. Soriano]

Apart from the fact that we are used to the 7/5 black and white system of coloring, it is truly a retarted system.

Consider the fact that, once you leave key of C and its modes, which keys are white or black becomes completely random. Literally. It's not even data, just gibberish. Why are some notes white and some black in an Ab major scale? No rhyme or reason.

As opposed to the Tri-chromatic system, where the color of the button always conveys something meaningful,no matter what key you are in.

For example, a major triad is always always colored now,next,next

So if start with c, a major triad is morning, evening, evening

In Db, it's evening, night,night

In D, it's night, morning,morning.

( morning --> evening --> night , at least in my version of the tri chromatic system.)

[roy pertchik]

@ Soriano, yes -in the tri-chromattic system, at least as I have it patented, the colors or identifiers rotate.  I understand your description, "now, next, next", but I am confused by your examples, eg. "morning, evening, evening."  Why shouldn't that be "morning, evening, night", "evening, night, morning", or lastly, "night, morning, evening"?   Maybe you are not rotating your identifiers as I imagine you are...

Roy Pertchik

Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB

1299 Lost Acre Drive

Felton, CA 95018

917 294 6605

Let's make the world a little better

[Keislar, Doug]

Roy,

There are two ways to interpret "now, next, next."  I believe the two "nexts" are referring to the same item, not one item and the item following it.  It's describing a major triad, in which the second and third items are a minor third apart so have the same name (evening) in this system.

Doug

---

From: musicn...@googlegroups.com [musicn...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of roy pertchik [roype...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 4:33 PM
To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [MNP] Re: My experience with the Chromatone

[roy pertchik]

Ok Doug, thanks.  Can you send me a link or some info on the system you are using.  Are you familiar with my system?  Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you a paper on what I'm doing.

Roy Pertchik

Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB

1299 Lost Acre Drive

Felton, CA 95018

917 294 6605

Let's make the world a little better

[Joseph Austin]

Enrique,

I agree that 3 positions x 2 colors = 6 distinguishable symbols,

but the chromatic scale is divided between TWO positions on the keyboard, say Upper and Lower,

so given 3 colors Morning Evening Night and 2 positions Up and Down, we have the sequence:

MD EU ND MU ED NU and repeat, so don’t we have the SAME number of distinctions?

Joe Austin

[roy pertchik]

I use 3 colors, and I divide up and down by 2, using 4 names, ae (as in brae), ee (as in bee), ie (as in pie), and oe (as in hoe), for four vowel sounds.  Combining these with B (black), W (white), R (red), I get Bae, Ree, Wie, Boe, Rae, Wee, Bie, Roe, Wae, Bee, Rie, Woe, and back to Bae.  Instead of earlier and later, I associate darker and lighter (though it requires remembering that white is darker than black.)  Half steps going up darken, whole steps lighten...

Roy Pertchik

Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB

1299 Lost Acre Drive

Felton, CA 95018

917 294 6605

Let's make the world a little better

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Soriano said:
"Consider the fact that, once you leave key of C and its modes, which keys are white or black becomes completely random. Literally. It's not even data, just gibberish. Why are some notes white and some black in an Ab major scale? No rhyme or reason."

Absolutely right!

But then I do not like any colorization of the keys. I just stam them with 12 different note symbols, or emboss them for tactile orientation (for visualy impaired people who do not care about colors).

[Music Integrated Solution]

Hi Doug,

I am talking about the use of color for orientation, not about the physical arrangement of notes on the instruments; the link you provided shows a 6/6 notes layout with a 7/5 orientation method; the difference is better understood on a keyboard where all the keys are arranged like the Dodeka keyboard then apply all the orientation methods and you will see what I mean.

[Music Integrated Solution]

Joe,

You are right in this case, though still needs more colors for the same, however I was thinking in a generic way about orientation methods, what about string instruments e.g. the guitar?

[O.E. Soriano]

Roy,

There are two ways to interpret "now, next, next."  I believe the two "nexts" are referring to the same item, not one item and the item following it.  It's describing a major triad, in which the second and third items are a minor third apart so have the same name (evening) in this system.

Doug

this.

I call the colors by "time of day" names just as a mnemonic for myself and whoever it might be useful for.

Using Roy's red, silver, black system, every major triad (in first position)  would I either be

silver, black, black

black, red, red

or

red, silver, silver

but there is never a time when the colors of the notes of the major triad would be useless.  The color will always be somehow meaningful.

Not that I am into major triads much :)

[roy pertchik]

(Oops, now I see, I was thinking you meant 3rds, but you're talking about triads, so, yes, more, next, and repeat next, or evening, night, night, or, black, red, red.)

[O.E. Soriano]

with a picture being worth a thousand words, here is a slide from personal powerpoint showing major triads

[Keislar, Doug]

Indeed worth a thousand words; thanks!

Assuming you're using conventional keyboard finger numbering, I suppose that the words "Left" and "Right" need to be swapped in this picture. 

Also, the 2nd and 4th fingers seem to be squeezed close together in these chords, arent' they? I would imagine that the 3rd finger would be more comfortable than the 4th in the left-hand chords (currently marked right-hand), but then I don't have a Chromatone...

Doug

---

From: musicn...@googlegroups.com [musicn...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of O.E. Soriano [oeso...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 12:58 PM

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MNP] Re: My experience with the Chromatone

with a picture being worth a thousand words, here is a slide from personal powerpoint showing major triads

[Music Integrated Solution]

The same way the Janko layout is more efficient than the Dodeka style layout the new orientation correlated to the positional symbols is more efficient and versatile than the instinctive way of using three colors, while exposing directly the same interval relationships.

It may be seen in the attached images, the new method shows how with the same three colors it can discriminate the twelve notes, and there is no need of combining the 7/5.

[O.E. Soriano]

yeah RH and LH are switched, sorry about that.

as far as the fingering, that's just me documenting the way I do it.  Someone could just as easily do it as you are saying.  At this moment, I'm playing around with both, and they both feel comfortable, though your way feels a little stronger because my 3 finger on my LH is much stronger than my 4 finger. But I'm always looking for opportunities to strengthen my 4 finger.

[Doug Keislar]

Thanks, Enrique, those keyboard images are very informative!  They show a trade-off between the two types of cycling (nested or not).  The non-nested type (as in your MIS) has the advantage of making the entire octave self-identifying, whereas the nested type (as on Roy's trichromatic vibraphone, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trichromatic_%28whole-tone%29_vibraphone.jpg) has a pattern that repeats at the half-octave.  On the other hand, I'm sure Roy would say that the nested type of cycling has advantages in identifying intervallic structures.

Doug

[Joseph Austin]

O.E., How/where did you get a Chromatone? Are they still being made? What about the Revolution?

I had seen it offered on websites but heard rumors those sites were no longer active.

Joe

[Music Integrated Solution]

Doug,

Each group of three keys (demarcated by colors) has three distinctive positions; these positions rotate exactly the same way colors rotate on the other form of using color; intervals are exposed consistently by said positions (not by colors) the way colors are supposed to do in the other method. 

In this way we have both 12-pitch distinction and 12-unique-interval relationships, which is what a new orientation method is supposed to do, there is no compromise or disadvantage compared with the other form of using color.

The 7/5 is good for pitch, the other color scheme may work for intervals; this orientation method works for both.

It should be noticed that this method is part of a system integrated by design and is not aimed at any specific instruments; it works the same on a full Janko keyboard and on a single string of an instrument where the other form would be confusing.

Using your words, non-nested colors work for pitch and nested positions work for intervals.

Appreciate your feedback; let me know if finally makes sense what I said.

Enrique.

[O.E. Soriano]

Both models are still being made. I don't know who is buying them, since I am one of the few north Americans I know who has one.

Anyway. I ordered mine from the chromatone outlet store,

www.chromatone.jp/online-shop/outlet_en.html

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

I would like to by the red Wholetone Revolution for my personal project with the intention to make new plastic keys according to my design that will extend the player's possibility to move accros the keybord efortlessly.

It is that... just the price is very high for me and on one side the consumption tax for Japan is paid and then the VAT tax in EU and finaly the import tax in Bulgaria. Thus I should pay almost like if I have bought two products at the original price. But I will get it... one day for sure!

[Music Integrated Solution]

This is simply a different way of using color; if this is accepted it is easy to understand; colors only demarcate clusters of three positions, and positions are the consistent elements in its relational isomorphism.

The third color sometimes may alternate with shape to resemble better the notation, especially on string instruments as shown on examples. 

[Doug Keislar]

Hi Enrique,

I understand your first sentence below, but I'm having trouble finding the example illustrating your second sentence.  In the illustration you linked to, I do see what looks like a guitar (six strings, anyway), but I don't see a third color alternating with a shape.  ???

Doug

[Music Integrated Solution]

By alternating I mean use one or the other but not both on the same instruments, e.g. in the guitar examples it is shape (wide, narrow) as well as the keyboards that have only one color where the tips of the keys are slightly rounded, these are just variants of the main idea.

[Music Integrated Solution]

Thanks, I can see it is not clear the way I said alternate.

[Music Integrated Solution]

correction:: the keyboards that have only two colors.

[Joseph Austin]

Enrique,

The choice between the Pertchik scheme and yours has been debated on this forum and elsewhere before.

I’m not sure of the correct mathematical terminology, but the Pertchik scheme is more “invariant” or “isomorphic”

because the pattern changes in a consistent way for each step up or down the chromatic scale,

whereas yours has a “discontinuity” every three steps.

I would also note that both Roy and O.E. are using jazz scales that actually take advantage of chromatic “isomorphism”,

and they seem to have independently arrived at the same scheme.  I have contended for a while that "iso-chromatic" notations and instruments would not become popular until people start playing iso-chromatic music, which Barry Harriss’ style seems to be.

The way I see it, if practitioners find the coloring useful, the theoretician’s job is to explain why they are right, not to tell them why they are wrong!

“It’s the rule because it sounds good; it’s doesn’t sound good because it follows the rule.”

Joe

[roy pertchik]

Joe, I am very grateful for you insightful and concise appraisal!  I have found time and again that this kind of development requires iterative, trial and error prototyping and testing, the same process nature uses: evolution.  We can, of course, add something that IMHO nature can not,.. we can add intelligent design, that is we can direct the evolution of our systems with our ability to reason.  Nature can not.  But the human designer must always guard against the temptation to not truthfully evaluate and learn from each iteration.  Inventors everywhere and on this board who practice in their field, be it music or other, by performing or teaching with their systems, have a real advantage in terms of developing mature designs.

Roy Pertchik

Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB

1299 Lost Acre Drive

Felton, CA 95018

917 294 6605

Let's make the world a little better

[Music Integrated Solution]

Joe,

What do you mean by the Pertchik scheme?

[Fernando Terra]

Hi, Soriano.

I'm learning the Chromatone too. Good work with the videos. Keep it coming. :)

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 8:11 PM, O.E. Soriano <oeso...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello All,

I thought I'd necro this thread to say that I bought a Chromatone about two and half-months ago, and have been transitioning from traditional piano to Chromatone ever since.

In a week or two, I plan on making a few videos documenting my progress and the theories of playing it that I am developing.  In the meantime, you guys can check out the three videos I made on it when I first got it:

Chromatone: First Impressions
http://youtu.be/H3TQ7cftMQM?list=UUPkVbHOZzjWC3wRikiy7Ppg

Chromatone: Second Impressions:
http://youtu.be/yHyxPcm_7mM?list=UUPkVbHOZzjWC3wRikiy7Ppg

Chromatone: The Tri-Color Scheme and Diminished Scales
http://youtu.be/xAec7LyFJW0

Any feedback would be great.

- OS

--

[O.E. Soriano]

Awesome!  Where are you from man?  I'm trying to keep tabs of everyone who is playing it in the Western hemisphere

[Joseph Austin]

Enrique,

The  “Pertchik” scheme is the tri-color keyboard coloring scheme that Roy Pertchik has patented, which is equivalent to the one O E Soriano uses on 

upper rows of his Chromatone.

[Joseph Austin]

O E, Fernando,

Are any of you using the “Muto” notation or any of the isomorphic notations from MNP?

Or do you play from standard notation, or by ear?

Have either of you had a look at my “tri-chromatic” notation?

http://drtechdaddy.com/2010/09/24/tonnetz-based-4x3-notation/

I’m curious if any of our isomorphic notations actually “work” for a truly isomorphic keyboard.

Joe Austin

DrTechDaddy.com

[roy pertchik]

(By the way, I do not believe Soriano came up with a three-diminished-chord marking system independently from me.)

Roy Pertchik

Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB

1299 Lost Acre Drive

Felton, CA 95018

917 294 6605

Let's make the world a little better

[O.E. Soriano]

Hello Joe,

The Muto system looks great, but I have no plans on learning it because I suspect it'll never catch on in the West.  I don' mind being the only go on the block to play an instrument, but I don't see the point in learning a notation system nobody uses, or for which music that I am interested in not published.

I have slowly learning standard notation.  Being a great sight reader is not a high-priority goal of mine, however; I just want to be able to read well enough to get and keep gigs.

[O.E. Soriano]

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 3:30:05 PM UTC-4, DrTechDaddy wrote:

I would also note that both Roy and O.E. are using jazz scales that actually take advantage of chromatic “isomorphism”,

and they seem to have independently arrived at the same scheme.  I have contended for a while that "iso-chromatic" notations and instruments would not become popular until people start playing iso-chromatic music, which Barry Harriss’ style seems to be.

I have to admit that when I first starting thinking about diminished 7th chord and half-diminished scales, I was not thinking about Jazz. Indeed, I confess I had not even heard of Barry Harris til I started corresponding with Roy Pertchick and he put me onto Harris.  For this I am grateful, because Barry Harris' idea are brilliant and I am still a long way from understanding and implementing them fully.

At the time, I was very much immersed in studying Gospel piano. The fundamental sound of Gospel piano, many of you may know, is the tri-tone. The tri-tone drives all forward movement in Gospel, indeed, it is possible to play every chord in Gospel with a tri-tone imbedded in it somewhere to carry you to the next chord.  This lead me to think deeply about the V7 chord, and how it can take you to the I but also to bV, in large part due to the tri-tone imbedded within the V7. Hence the tri-tone's ability to take you rather seamlessly to a new key center.

Continuing along this train of thought, I developed an interest in the the V7b9 chord, which is a kind of Valt chord. It contains not one, but two, tri-tone pairs imbedded with in it: the 2-b6 tritone, and the 4-7 tri-tone. Together the four notes (2-4-b6-7) make up the dim 7 chord.  I then saw that, because of this imbedded dim 7, the V7b9 has the ability to take you to four different key centers: I, bIII, bV, VI

I was only a matter of logic, then, to deduce that, with only three dim7 chords (or any chords with dim at their foundation, such as V7alt chords) you can move to any of the 12 key centers on the keyboard in a musical way.  This is why I subscribe to the theory that the diminished scale is  probably the most logical way to organize the keyboard; at the very least it is simulataneously the most logical and most musical at the same time.

This is why I am very excited about the Tri-Chromatic system that Roy Pertchick patented.  It is the only system I know of that allows the user to navigate the corridors of music visually using those very powerful diminished pathways.

[roy pertchik]

Hi Omar,

Thanks for your hard work and enthusiasm for the tri-cromatic system.  And thanks for steering me to your work in 2006, I apologize for my skepticism. The first 6+6 keyboard I built was in high school maybe in '70s, based on an idea from my dad.  I learned Barry's 3 diminished chord approach through the Rubic's cube of music harmony, from Barry in the 1980's, and eventually started to think about the potential benefit of trying to embody it on a 6+6, using 3 colors.  I finalized and patented a design, and commissioned an instrument some 15 or so years ago, and have never looked back.  (I look forward to hearing your thoughts about the Howard Reese exercises for Barry's thinking... unfortunately that's all in traditional notation and nomenclature for 7+5 ;^)

Roy

Roy Pertchik

Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB

1299 Lost Acre Drive

Felton, CA 95018

917 294 6605

Let's make the world a little better

--

[O.E. Soriano]

I think all of this points to the fact that many of us are thinking about the following concepts:

1) Isomorphic patterns on boards

2) Symmetrical scales

3) The power of diminished scales

4) More effective motifs for color coding

Which has lead me to suspect that perhaps we need our own google group for focused conversation on this: development of the instruments, concepts that surround the instruments, and, perhaps most importantly, how to play these instruments.  I think there is a dearth of material on getting starting making music on Janko/Chromatone/Tri-Chromatic, etc, and I would love to work towards giving the world systematic tools for getting started playing.

So how about it: would enough people be interested to justify starting a group for this topic?  at least 10?  If it's going to be another internet ghost-town, I won't bother, but if at least 10 people were interested in participating in a "Janko - Chromatone - Tri-Chromatic" Google Group, I'd create it and be a contributor.

[Joseph Austin]

Omar,

So far from this forum (MNP) I’m aware of only 4 people actually playing Janko instruments.

But there may also be interest from those who subscribed to the Terpstra and similar instruments,

and members of the diykeyboard group.

I suppose I might even include myself also as I have actually constructed a Janko glock and taken a few lessons.

From time to time I’ve considered buying or building a janko keyboard; 

now hearing from a couple people with Chromatones has got me considering it again;

the prospect of an active group developing a curriculum would be an incentive to take the plunge!

But to be clear, I’m not particularly interested in Jazz—to me the significant advantage of Janko 

would be the ability to reach a 10th instead of just an octave, for playing 4-part hymns.

Joe Austin

[O.E. Soriano]

I love hymns!  Hymns are to Gospel what the Great American Songbook is to Jazz.

Some personal favorites are:

"Jesus How I Trust Him"
"Old Rugged Cross"
"How Great Thou Art"

:)

I'm not much of a follower of Christian music these days, but sometimes I'll break out a binder of worship music I have and play, just for personal devotion.

[Fernando Terra]

I'm Brazilian.

[O.E. Soriano]

that's great, man.  you,me, and everyone else playing this instrument needs to stay in touch and compare notes.  Also, I'd love to see a video of what you are up to.

[Fernando Terra]

Hi Joe,

I've tried the Muto notation, but I am using Synthesia now. I really like the idea of animated guitar-heroish notations, they are very intuitive. The problem with Synthesia is that it has a piano like format, but if it had an isomorphic layout and also if the software were customizable, allowing us to name the notes, the intervals and color the keys as we prefer, it would be amazing.

I have to take some time to really understand your notation. It seems interesting at first glance.

[Fernando Terra]

"you,me, and everyone else playing this instrument needs to stay in touch and compare notes."

I agree.

Regarding the video I'm still not able to produce anything video-worthy in the Chromatone unfortunatly.  Maybe in the future.

[O.E. Soriano]

I'll listen to anything you got, honestly.

are you practicing regularly?

[Music Integrated Solution]

On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com> wrote:

Enrique,

The  “Pertchik” scheme is the tri-color keyboard coloring scheme that Roy Pertchik has patented, which is equivalent to the one O E Soriano uses on 

upper rows of his Chromatone.

Joe,

Then it seems there is a difference between the meaning of scheme and orientation.

I guess what you mean is that positions have a sequence more defined or demarcated like 1, 2, 3 while a sequence of three colors does not have such a definition or demarcation because any color may be 1, 2, or 3 then it provides a ‘scheme’ but with a poor orientation; it is reasonable why Soriano added the 7/5 to have both the scheme and the orientation.

However in the positional method that I have shown there is good orientation and the ‘scheme’ also exist but in the sequence of ‘same, next and alternate’ because any position has equally any relationship; in other words the sequence of relationships can start also anywhere like the sequence of colors.

Orientation and scheme, pitch and intervals coexist and fuse in a system (MIS) with notation and a powerful semantic or pronounceable codification of the harmonic material, which is not biased to a specific type of music but as a better general purpose musical medium. 

This is not an alternative to the same; it is a powerful complement with new possibilities that I refuse to settle for or compare with less.

Enrique.

[Joseph Austin]

Omar,

BTW, I like your morning-evening-night system for remembering the color sequence.

I always liked How Great Thou Art.

I asked a piano teacher once how long would take to learn to play hymns in 4-part harmony.

She said six years.  First I would have to learn the basic classical method.

I didn’t see why they couldn’t just start off with intervals in both hands.

Maybe start with octaves in both hands, melody and bass line,

then gradually add fourth/fifth in bass and third/sixth in treble.

I’m playing RH and LH in octaves “by ear” in C after about 6 months.

I suppose learning the inner voices will take some knowledge of inversions and a better-developed ear for harmony.

The janko arrangement should help with the harmony—turn six years of lessons into child’s play!

It would also help if there were such a thing as a “legato” mode.

This would be like a damper pedal in reverse: 

let a note sustain after key released 

until either another note is struck or the pedal is pressed

That shouldn’t be difficult to do with an electronic keyboard.

Joe

[Joseph Austin]

Synthesia seems to be still in development.

They have a forum for requesting enhancements.

I’ve tried synthesia—my issue at present is that I can’t see enough in advance,

Maybe there’s an option I could adjust for that.

plus it’s taking me a while to get used to their “staff”.

I also would love to be able to customize the interface.

Perhaps if we can get 10 janko players to start a development group, we can get some leverage with Synthesia.

Joe

[Joseph Austin]

Enrique,

Mathematically, the difference in the patterns is between “parallel” sequence and “nested” sequence.

Given say numbers and letters:  1 2 3 4 and A B C

Nested: would be either:  

1A 2A 3A 4A  1B 2B 3B 4B 1C 2C 3C 4C , with numbers cycling within letter, 4 within 3, discontinuity every 4

or the opposite:  

1A 1B 1C 2A 2B  2C 3A 3B 3C 4A 4B 4C, with letters cycling within number, 3 within 4, discontinuity every 3.

But if the numbers and letters cycle independently in parallel, we get:

1A 2B 3C 4A 1B 2C 3A 4B 1C 2A 3B 4C, no discontinuity, both cycles advance on every step.

As long as the two cycles are relatively prime, as 3 with 2 or 4, you will get the maximum NxM run without repetitions,

so fortuitously, it works well for 12_TET .

If one were so inclined, one could add my 4-cycle to the tri-color by means of say striping at 4 angles:  | / — \  ( | ),

giving a full “chroma-tonnetz” visual pattern to the keys.

I had remarked earliers that the linear staff in inherently “discontinuous” visually in that there are narrow and wide symbols (lines and spaces),

whereas the theoretical piano-roll with 12 equal-sized ribbons is “continuous”.

BTW, Synthesia implements ribbons, but  chose to use two different widths, which provides an unnecessary visual discontinuity,

but it could be readily adapted to equal ribbons and a tricolor or even chroma-tonnetz scheme or even a 12-color scheme.

The traditonal 12-hued color wheel is “continuous” in that you move smoothly all around the circle:  R RO O OY Y YG G GB B BV V VR (R),

The traditonal 7-hued rainbow works for the 7-note diatonic scale if you fudge violet toward  VR.

I’d question the value of 12 colors, however.  The 3x4 scheme, or even just the tri-color superimposed on alternating row janko,  conveys useful intervalic information that would be lost with a single-sequence 12 color scheme.

If you would like to experience the advantage of the tri-color scheme, apply it to some instrument and try it!

Removable stickers work well.  I have a colored strip on the fall-board of my piano, behind the keys.

Joe Austin

[Music Integrated Solution]

On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com> wrote:

Enrique,

Mathematically, the difference in the patterns is between “parallel” sequence and “nested” sequence.

But practically, the difference is: I cannot handle and I can handle.

You are interlacing two sequences at the same time, e.g. the tri-color sequence with another four-element sequence, which might be theoretically attractive but additionally complex for practical purposes as it imposes more brain acrobatics that believe me I have tried and cannot handle.

Ok, so far you demonstrated how the method is twice more complex, but can you demonstrate how is it twice more useful?

[Joseph Austin]

Enrique,

No, I am not set up to do demonstrations of utility.

So at this point it is just a theoretical hypothesis.

I will have to think through how it might be applied to creating RH harmonies for melodies.

Joe

[Joseph Austin]

Omar,

RE coloring:

On the traditionally colored side of your keyboard, you might consider coloring the F and B gray.

This will divide the keyboard into two pentatonic scales, one white (C) and one black (F#/Gb).

Adding the two gray notes to either will give you a diatonic scale, of which the gray notes themselves are the tritone of the V7.

This makes for easy visual transposition between C and F#, which is half an octave away;

this is a useful transposition for people who prefer to play in C but want to play songs in the voice range of F or G.

Joe Austin

[Music Integrated Solution]

Ok Joe, I understand; when I have the time probably we could open another thread to show the difference between an alternative notation and an alternative medium and what all this brings to the table.

I think we sort of agree that the sole alternative to notation is not an alternative to the traditional system, and makes sense the reasoning of most people that prefer to strive a bit more learning TN if necessary but at the end have a feeling that have learned something worthwhile, while the traditional intention of chromatic staff notation proposals eliminate most of the so called unnecessary complications but have some serious issues on the down side.

Easier forms of notations have been presented in all flavors for at least a century, there is no lack of easier notation systems; it is hard to imagine easier notation systems than what already exist.

Please if anyone is considering spending time imagining an easier form of music notation try imagining a more useful or efficient system to interact with music.

The only alternative notation system that I consider worthwhile is the one that is ‘useful’ to those that already know TN, and that is the only criterion I care, and that is the only criterion left on my list.

The idea of the alternative medium is more necessary and should be more beneficial to our minds than just the benefit of isomorphic fingering.

Enrique.

[Joseph Austin]

Enrique,

Regarding the utility of my Chorma-Tonnetz notation.

Understand that my original motivation was to create a system of chromatic shape-notes for singing with a moveable-do system.

That is, I wanted a unique symbol for each step of the diatonic/chromatic scale starting on “do”.

Given that objective, any set of 12 unique symbols would suffice. Indeed, there are already a few system in use with seven unique symbols for the diatonic scale, so I could have simply added five more.

But when I became aware of the Tonnetz, and having been aware of Pertchik’s tri-color, I realized I could create a systematic sequence with tri-color and Tonnetz properties. So I added a theoretical structure on top of an already “useful” 12-symbol concept.

Now it has often proven the case that “theoretically elegant” systems precede the discovery of their practical applications.

But regardless, I find the system “useful” already, even if it is more complex than necessary for shape-note purposes.

Perhaps I have not sufficiently stressed the “utility” of scale-step notation as an adjunct to, not necessarily a replacement for, an isomorphic pitch notation.

Given the objective of identifying scale-steps, the moveable-do version of ChromaTonnetz has the added advantage of explicitly exposing the harmonic relationships of the pitches to each other, as well as to the tonic. That is to say, not only does each scale step have a unique symbol,

but each “Roman Numeral Chord such as I ii iii IV V etc., and each inversion, has a unique “spelling”.

I would expect this could be an advantage in choral singing.

Furthermore, I think you would find that my symbols would relate to a full “system” of nomenclature for scale degrees and intervals,

expecially one based on Pertchik’s or any other 4 || 3 naming scheme.

Also, as we have explored earlier, it is possible to use ChromaTonnetz symbols (or any 12-symbol system) without a positional staff.

Indeed, one could unambiguously indicate a single-note part with just two position variations (up or down from previous note) and some additional symbol for octave jumps.

So in summary, I consider my system “useful” as is, but with much more as-yet-unexplored and un-exploited theoretical potential.

Joe

[Paul Morris]

Hi All,

On Oct 3, 2014, at 3:05 PM, Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mathematically, the difference in the patterns is between “parallel” sequence and “nested” sequence.
> Given say numbers and letters: 1 2 3 4 and A B C
> Nested: would be either:
> 1A 2A 3A 4A 1B 2B 3B 4B 1C 2C 3C 4C , with numbers cycling within letter, 4 within 3, discontinuity every 4
> or the opposite:
> 1A 1B 1C 2A 2B 2C 3A 3B 3C 4A 4B 4C, with letters cycling within number, 3 within 4, discontinuity every 3.
>
> But if the numbers and letters cycle independently in parallel, we get:
>
> 1A 2B 3C 4A 1B 2C 3A 4B 1C 2A 3B 4C, no discontinuity, both cycles advance on every step.

Lets take these two patterns:

Pattern J (nested):

1A 2B 3C 4A 1B 2C 3A 4B 1C 2A 3B 4C

Pattern E (parallel):

1A 1B 1C 2A 2B 2C 3A 3B 3C 4A 4B 4C

And compare major triads, ascending chromatically.

Major triads, pattern J:

1A 1B 4B
2B 2C 1C
3C 3A 2A
4A 4B 3B
1B 1C 4C
2C 2A 1A
3A 3B 2B
4B 4C 3C
1C 1A 4A
2A 2B 1B
3B 3C 2C
4C 4A 3A

Major triads, pattern E:

1A 2B 3B
1B 2C 3C
1C 3A 4A
2A 3B 4B
2B 3C 4C
2C 4A 1A
3A 4B 1B
3B 4C 1C
3C 1A 2A
4A 1B 2B
4B 1C 2C
4C 2A 3A

Pattern J provides more regularity in the pattern or "signature" of a major triad (and other intervals as well), making them easier to identify, allowing you to more easily read and play "major triad" rather than reading and playing three individual notes (whose relationship may not be as readily apparent).

Having that kind of regularity or consistency in the way intervals are represented holds a significant practical advantage, if you ask me. It's the isomorphism principle at work. Just my two cents.

Cheers,
-Paul

[Music Integrated Solution]

Hi Paul,

I understand pattern J is used to scramble some symbols, but in the musical practice what is it useful for?

Enrique.

[Paul Morris]

On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Music Integrated Solution <mtall...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Paul,
> I understand pattern J is used to scramble some symbols, but in the musical practice what is it useful for?
> Enrique.

Hi Enrique,
I don't know what you mean by "scramble some symbols." This kind of consistent pattern makes it easier to read and play by intervals (in addition to individual notes). That's why it's useful in practice. Like I wrote before:

"Pattern J provides more regularity in the pattern or "signature" of a major triad (and other intervals as well), making them easier to identify, allowing you to more easily read and play "major triad" rather than reading and playing three individual notes."

For further comparison here are a couple more patterns that have this kind of regularity:

Pattern R
like Roy's vibraphone with 2 rows and 3 colors (2x3), it repeats twice:

1A 2B 1C 2A 1B 2C . 1A 2B 1C 2A 1B 2C

Major triads:

1A 1B 2B
2B 2C 1C
1C 1A 2A
2A 2B 1B
1B 1C 2C
2C 2A 1A
.
1A 1B 2B
2B 2C 1C
1C 1A 2A
2A 2B 1B
1B 1C 2C
2C 2A 1A


Pattern CN
like my Clairnote notation system with 4 vertical positions relative to each staff line, and 2 note head "colors" (solid and hollow) (4x2), it repeats three times:

1A 2B 3A 4B . 1A 2B 3A 4B . 1A 2B 3A 4B

Major triads:

1A 1A 4B
2B 2B 1A
3A 3A 2B
4B 4B 3A
.
1A 1A 4B
2B 2B 1A
3A 3A 2B
4B 4B 3A
.
1A 1A 4B
2B 2B 1A
3A 3A 2B
4B 4B 3A


Of course abstracting these visual/symbolic and spatial patterns from instruments and notation systems into numbers and letters in an email leaves a lot to be desired. (Images like the ones you shared are much better.) But it just serves to show the regularity/consistency that each of these patterns has when it comes to representing intervals.

Cheers,
-Paul

[John Keller]

Paul, I noticed you have swapped what Joseph meant by "nested" and
"parallel"!

John

[Paul Morris]

On Oct 6, 2014, at 4:13 PM, John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Paul, I noticed you have swapped what Joseph meant by "nested" and "parallel"!

Thanks John, you are right! My mistake.

-Paul

[Paul Morris]

On Oct 6, 2014, at 4:13 PM, John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Paul, I noticed you have swapped what Joseph meant by "nested" and "parallel"!

Thanks John, you are right! My mistake. I had it right in my head but it didn't translate to the email.

-Paul

[Doug Keislar]

Regarding the meaning of "nested," I think I started this error in my
message a few days ago, which may have led Paul down the wrong path:

> Thanks, Enrique, those keyboard images are very informative! They
> show a trade-off between the two types of cycling (nested or not).
> The non-nested type (as in your MIS) has the advantage of making the
> entire octave self-identifying, whereas the nested type (as on Roy's
> trichromatic vibraphone,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trichromatic_%28whole-tone%29_vibraphone.jpg)
> has a pattern that repeats at the half-octave. On the other hand, I'm
> sure Roy would say that the nested type of cycling has advantages in
> identifying intervallic structures.
>
> Doug

[O.E. Soriano]

Okay. here's the latest Chromatone video I made:

Chromatone: Keeler-Soriano Principles for Janko / Chromatone Fingering


Description: I describe seven principles that can used as best practices for fingering on a Janko or a Chromatone.

Feedback is welcome!

[Ole Kirkeby]

I had a look at the Chromatone a few years ago but didn't follow up on it. However, because of this thread I decided to order one, and I got it last week. My first impression is that it is very well made and good value for money. Now I just have to learn to play it :-).

ole

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:17:42 AM UTC+3, O.E. Soriano wrote:

Both models are still being made. I don't know who is buying them, since I am one of the few north Americans I know who has one.

Anyway. I ordered mine from the chromatone outlet store,

www.chromatone.jp/online-shop/outlet_en.html

[O.E. Soriano]

Congratulations!!!!

This settles it. I'm starting a group just for this topic in a day or two. Stay tuned!

[O.E. Soriano]

Well, everyone, I have gone and created the Janko-Chromatone google group!

Description:

This will be a place to discuss:

- getting started with a Janko or a Chromatone
- some pedagogy for playing this kind of piano
- different ideas for coloring schemes for J/C pianos

...and much more!  You're all invited

Here's the link: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/janko-chromatone

[O.E. Soriano]

I've written what I think is a pretty interesting piece entitled "Possible Coloring Schemes for Janko / Chromatone Pianos," and have posted it on the new Janko-Chromatone google group.  Come check it out and reply.  Its here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/janko-chromatone/UJ6rysyM4bU

Also, about 9 people from different part of the internets have joined the group, but so far, I'm the only one who has posted.

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Omar,

I do not have a Chromotone otherwise I would have posted by now any video or demonstration. ;)

Patience, maybe next year.

[gguitarwilly]

Hi Dominique,

Thanks for sharing this conversation, that covers questions that probably every beginning Janko player has.

At this moment I am still optimistic about the facility of the keyboard layout (my melodica has only four rows, so my fingerings are limited to three rows max, to allow for transposing)

I think that some drills (arpeggios and scales) should automate part of the fingering in a matter of months. I play Irish folk tunes that I transcribe in a simplified version of Musiscript notation. As there are a lot of scale parts and arpeggios in that style of music, it is a fun way to learn Janko playing.

However, I am interested in the instruction books. Would you mind sending me the copies? my Gmail is zwa...@gmail.com 

best regards, Willem

Op maandag 19 oktober 2009 18:04:25 UTC+2 schreef Dominique Waller:

Dear Dan and Troy,

You both asked me [DW] for some feedback on my experience with the
Chromatone CRT-12. As promised, these are excerpts of conversations
I’ve had with Paul Vandervoort [PV] recently which summarize quite
clearly I think how I feel about the Chromatone. For those of you who
don’t know him, Paul is currently working a on a 5-rows Janko-like
keyboard that he hopes to commercialize one day when he has finished.
      Feel free to comment.

DW: The fact is that I’m changing my mind on Janko keyboards. Here’s
why.
Recently, almost accidently, I found out that by removing all the
buttons on my Chromatone I had access to the inner structure of the
keyboard, and that this structure could be easily modified and
hopefully converted into common piano keys, for it is made of long and
short plastic keys alternatively with plastic ridges to support the
buttons of the keyboard itself. I bought a little machine and chopped
off the ridges, so I was left with a keyboard of flat keys that I’ve
colored in black and white. Then I had something that resembled the
chromatic piano of my dreams. But those keys are too narrow, and the
keyboard is not comfortable at all at this stage. I hope to get things
better by adding little wooden platforms on the short keys, but this
won’t change their dimensions anyway.
As you know, my progress on the Chromatone has not been as fast as I
hoped. As there are six rows, I was left with a lot of fingering
choices to make, which is too much for a beginner without specific
method or teacher. When reading a Bach piece in my own cipher
notation, I had to specify for each note the row (in Roman figures)
and the finger, and that means a lot of preparation.
On my modified Chromatone, I’ve tried to read my cipher notation and I
was deeply relieved not having to worry about rows. As someone noticed
recently on the MNP forum, as fingers can slide forwards and backwards
along the keys on a current piano it’s like there were several rows
altogether. It was the first time I could train myself on a prototype
of that sort. The simplicity of the two-row keyboard is very
comfortable, at least when reading a musical part.
Maybe the Janko layout was easy for someone like you who had a good
training on piano prior to trying the Janko I’m sorry if I disappoint
you. I hope you’ll keep me informed of your progress anyway, as I can
change my mind once more…

PV: I understand why you feel this way.  However I believe that if you
had a good teacher who was skilled at playing and fingering a Janko,
you would find that the Janko is a joy to play. I will now give you a
brief lesson in Janko fingering.  My simple suggestions below are
consistent with the Janko instruction booklets which were published in
the 1890s.
1. The bottom two rows are for the thumbs only.
2. Never play the top two rows with a thumb.
3. When you play an octave with one hand using the thumb and little
finger, the thumb should be two rows lower than the little finger.
4. As much as possible, try to keep the thumb on rows which are lower
than the rows which the other fingers of the same hand are using.
I may have some sort of natural gift for solving such problems as
fingerings.  However, I can assure you that, after a while, it becomes
fast and easy to determine comfortable Janko fingerings for most any
piece of music. I have two Janko different fingering instruction
booklets from the 1890s.

PV: I scanned my photocopies of two Janko instruction books for you.
These were published in the 1890s.  I haven't taken the time to review
them thoroughly.  There are a few fingerings which I disagree with.
Like many such things, different people will have different
preferences.
These books use a method of fingering notation which adds dots above
and below the finger numbers to indicate, respectively, the upper two
or the lower two rows (assuming a six-row Janko keyboard).  You may
find this notation method interesting.

DW: These rules [1.-4.] I have applied almost completely, not from the
start, but later on when I thought on the particularities of the
keyboard that I should take advantage of when playing.
I notice that you were used to a chromatic keyboard since 1973! We
don’t start from the same point. In this case it’s no surprise that
you feel comfortable on the Janko, having trained yourself at an early
age on an isomorphic layout. And you were probably already trained on
the piano as well, am I right?
My hope is to be able to play, on a much more rational basis, pieces
of interest like Bach, Debussy and jazz too. To reach this goal, I
count on two cumulative innovations: a simplified notation (the
numerical system that I’ve invented) and a simplified instrument
(isomorphic layout). I’ve edited musical parts in my system and I’ve
been since testing myself in all kinds of combination: TN on a
classical instrument; TN on an isomorphic instrument; new notation on
a classical instrument; and of course new notation on an isomorphic
instrument. I play drums, I’ve tuned my guitar in fourths and tried
the Chromatone and now the chromatic piano. My conclusion is that the
problem doesn’t come from the reading, as I’m now accustomed to my own
notation system.
The second point is that I’m not thinking for myself only, but on the
likely success that those innovations could meet in the general
public. In other words, are those inventions things that we could
promote on a general scale and especially among beginners of all
ages?
Maybe I’m wrong (Jim Plamondon would probably say I am) but I believe
that to get public success, we should promote things that resemble the
old; a notation that looks like a music notation and instruments that
look like already well-known instruments. That’s why I’m so much in
favor of the black and white coloring. It’s not only for visual
orientation – as one could imagine other efficient colorings – it’s
because it’s so important to underline that the new keyboard was not
made for playing atonal music; and so that anyone could still see the
diatonic into the chromatic. The first thing that the average mother
will ask you before buying it to little Johnny is “Where is C on your
keyboard?” The fact that C is a white key on the lower row is made to
reassure everyone, I think. And besides, I haven’t felt that those
fingerings were so much different than on the classical piano. (I’m
not talking about rows here of course, only fingers). I’ve used a very
popular piano method for children for advice and found that fingers
indications worked as well most of the times!
So deciphering on a chromatic piano doesn’t seem difficult to me.
There are four steps:
1.        Learn where are the notes on the keyboard. This can be achieved
very quickly by drawing a map of a keyboard octave with the twelve
numerical codes of the notation (which therefore works as a tablature
as well).
2.        Read the musical part and try to play it.
3.        Decide which fingers to use for each note or so and add it on the
musical part.
4.        Play the piece and learn it.
On my Chromatone, step 1 was itself more difficult. There are so many
keys that even with notes repeating themselves every pair of rows, my
mind was confused and the “map” wasn’t ever totally clear. Hence I
felt unsure.
        And then another step was added: decide which row to play for almost
every note. That means five steps instead of four.

PV: There are many improved notation systems as well. However, I will
certainly acknowledge that the massive quantity of conventional
keyboards and conventional notation materials makes promotion of
alternatives much more difficult. Nevertheless, I do believe that a
market can be developed for alternative keyboards. It will take time.
As I said, there is a trade-off between the simplicity of a Robbins
keyboard [chromatic piano] and the large finger clearance of a Janko.
I submit to you, having played both keyboards extensively, that the
complexity of the Janko is a temporary intellectual challenge which
can be mastered and effectively transcended. However, the narrow
finger clearance of a Robbins (and, to a lesser extent, a conventional
keyboard) present a physical challenge which will forever hinder the
musician's ease, comfort, and speed. The longer you practice the
faster you can play, of course, but the "speed limit" (so to speak) of
a Janko is simply much faster than that of the other keyboards. I
can't over-emphasize how important this factor is.  It really matters
a lot.

Cheers to all!
Dominique Waller

[O.E. Soriano]

Here's the latest instructional video:

Chromatone: Triads - How to Form Them and How to Use Them

http://youtu.be/fVEjFYytV54

Description: In this video, I explain, for the context of the Chromatone, why triads are important, how to form them, and how to use them in two basic rhythms.

Feel free to join us at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/janko-chromatone, the Janko-Chromatone group, created to discuss topics just like these

[O.E. Soriano]

Chromatone: Basic Scales

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqTTp-GtrZQ

Description: A primer on how to play and practice some very basic scales on the Chromatone