Express Stave font

[John Keller]

Hello everyone,

 

I tweaked the design of the noteheads in my ES font by making the sloping noteheads (the "bigs") a little slimmer, so that all noteheads now appear to have the same weight to the eye. I think this looks good aesthetically. Major thirds (4 semitones) have a slight gap between their like-shaped noteheads, and now that gap is more consistent whether the M3rd comprises "bigs" (even key signatures) or "smalls" (odd key signatures).

 

You can see the font in my latest pdf version in the Wiki. Do you agree with my evaluation?

http://musicnotation.org/w/images/b/bc/Ravel_-_Valses_nobles_et_sentimentales_reverse_ES_font_4.pdf

 

As I play through these lovely pieces I can clearly see all the intervals.

 

Ravel is an amazing craftsman here. The jazz voicing root position chords in waltz 1 measures 57-59 make one complete key clock revolution, D G C F H J L I K B E A D. See how the bass notes alternate between bigs and smalls and descend over their stave lines through the naturals ( - black noteheads) and the extras (accidentals - white noteheads). 

 

I attach the .ttf font for anyone who would like to use it with Finale.

 

Cheers,

John Keller

 

 

[John Keller]

Hello everyone,

 

I have added some information on Express Stave to the Wiki. Please have a look at the Express Stave Guide in particular and let me know what you think. Is it easy to understand etc?

 

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

 

John Keller

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[Joseph Austin]

John,

Since you asked:

* The Express Stave Guide is pretty clear as far as it goes, but I'd add a few things:

1. A brief statement of rationale, e.g. non-ambiguity, octave symmetry

2. Since your color scheme "breaks" the traditional timing notation,

I'd include mention of the half/whole note duration notation changes.

You have those things in other documents, but inclusion in the Guide would make it more self-standing.

3. I found the notehead color discussion not helpful.

(--Here's a rule that applies except for the times it doesn't--which is about half the times--).

The real rule is: the colors match the keyboard; 

(or, for the reverse color version, are the opposite of the keyboard, because...?).

See below for my preferred color system.

 

4. I also found the Similarity with TN discussion unhelpful.

In general, I think it would be better not to mention traditional notation, 

except when discussing the deficiencies of TN.

Your notation and staff really isn't related to TN in any significant way--I'd stick to it's relation to the keyboard.

BTW, regarding color, I've often been tempted to color all the B's and F's gray, 

so the keyboards would then have complete black/white "reversibility".

They would then also match your "gray" line/spaces between Ls and Ds,

the two notes that never touch a line.

Then C would then be a "white" scale and K a "black" scale, each with two extra "gray" notes,

which, the way I prefer to think of it, are the notes added to the pentatonic scale to get the diatonic.

Then, I'd transpose all "beginner" key F and G music to K. 

With that, you could get thru the first year of lessons 

with the same color pattern: XXXyXXy

Another thing: have you ever experimented with different note shapes, e.g. square and diamond?

Just a thought!

Joe Austin

[Doug Keislar]

Joe, this is a great idea:

BTW, regarding color, I've often been tempted to color all the B's and F's gray, 

so the keyboards would then have complete black/white "reversibility".

They would then also match your "gray" line/spaces between Ls and Ds,

the two notes that never touch a line.

Then C would then be a "white" scale and K a "black" scale, each with two extra "gray" notes,

which, the way I prefer to think of it, are the notes added to the pentatonic scale to get the diatonic.

It wasn't immediately obvious to me, and probably not to others, that this reversibility is true not just of the C major scale versus the "K" (Gb) major scale, but of ANY pitch structure.  Any pitch structure transposed by a tritone results in the reverse color pattern: black becomes white, white becomes black, gray stays gray.

For example, major scales (W= white, B=black, G=gray):

C:  WWWGWWGW
Gb: BBBGBBGB

Db: BBGBBBWB
G:  WWGWWWBW

D:  WWBWWGBW
Ab: BBWBBGWB

Eb: BGWBBWWB
A:  WGBWWBBW

E:  WBBWGBBW
Bb: BWWBGWWB

F:  GWWBWWWG
B:  GBBWBBBG

major seventh chords:

C:  WWWG
Gb: BBBG

Db: BGBW
G:  WGWB

etc.

Not as amazing as isomorphic keyboards (because for a given pitch structure you have to learn up to six color patterns and their inverses, instead of just two inverse physical patterns), but nifty nonetheless.  Was this idea your own?  (Do I remember John Keller coloring a keyboard this way?)

Doug

[John Keller]

Hi Joe,

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

1 and 2: Yes the Guide was meant for some higher level theory points only, but I'll work on making it more self standing.

 

3: In TN you can write a note anywhere and it is a legitimate note, but in some ANs you cant, eg in TwinLine you cant write a triangle note on a line like in Pauls TwinNote. So my "rule" was only trying to remind a beginner how to draw legitimate notes, not to teach them what they are or refer to a keyboard. In my illustation for young kids I sometimes make the centre D line red (to show that the notes touching this line will be the opposite of the other lines). See

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

 

But maybe I should just explain the one system. The above is Reverse ES, while the Guide is plain ES.

 

4: I'm surprised you think that showing the similarity with bass clef is unhelpful. Two of my Youtube videos are based on this concept.

• “Dueling Bass: Traditional vs Alternative Music Notation”
• “A new way to read the Bass Clef: tutorial plus Name the Tune”

5: I agree that there is reason to think of B and F as grey, as they transition in the key circle from the white into the black hemisphere.

 

In the original "Classic" ES font these notes have a dash inside so they are indeed "grey" like your grey triangles. But in playing a lot from my various versions, I came to dislike notes with dashes (and specially with dots) inside.

 

I have toyed with the idea of making one of F and B the opposite colour, in order to make all notes have distinct noteheads, and to equalise the black and white hemispheres, eg CDEFGA is one hexachord and KLHBIJ the other. But I think its better to keep the historical distinction between the naturals and the "extras" as on the keyboard and in note names ("extras" being the TN accidentals and the ES extra letters H to L)

 

6: Yes there is a version of ES with the 8 "space" notes written as triangles, the "bottom of space" (b) as upward pointing and the "top of space" (t) as downward pointing. This helps to make the triple or diminished 7th coding (- m,b,t, m,b,t, ) more distinct. In general though I like roundish noteheads

 

Thanks again for your ideas!

 

John K 

[Joseph Austin]

John,

I totally missed the red line in "My Imaginary Friend."!

After listening to it, I concluded that the LH and RH parts were not intended to be played simultaneously.

I saw your videos of the bass clef--interesting comparison, for someone interested in why ES is better.

I just assumed you intended the Guide for someone who was planning to read or write music in ES,

and I didn't see how the comparison to TN would offer anything but confusion.

As for shapes, I was thinking square / diamond could replace small / large,

since you had expressed concern about relative "presence" of the two styles.

A square turned on it's point is root2 times "taller" than a flat square, but the same volume!

Three stacked squares would take just a tad more vertical space than two stacked diamonds,

which is roughly the ratios your system uses.

As I interpret ES, there are two "imaginary" lines equally-spaced between each pair of visible ones,

and these six "lines" always get a "tall" note.

These six "lines" create six "spaces," which always get a "small" note.

At least, that's the way I'd implement it in my character-based system.

So, a diatonic major scale is Tall Tall Tall short short short short, or the reverse,

(So you see why I don't see any relationship between the five-line TN staff 

and the 6-"line" ES staff.  

The ledger "line" for the middle small note is really a "space" the way I internalize it--, 

and BTW, the way you drew it with the D and F  "gray 'lines' " on the "Lines and Spaces page.

In fact, the longer I look at that picture, the more I like it--

better than any of the strictly two-color 6-6 staves I've seen.

As for gray notes, my motivation would be to conquer black-key phobia,

by "revealing" the black-key scale as symmetric with the white-key scale.

You can easily play pentatonic tunes on just the black keys,

as long as you don't have to read it form TN!

With my Glock, I found it really easy to play in "K", just thinking of colors reversed and gray.

It's even fairly easy to transpose to K from F/G music, 

easier than reading F#/Gb in my opinion,

but maybe confusing for beginners, which would defeat the purpose.

And the gray would also give an internal structure to the otherwise all-white diatonic scale.

The "gray notes" of course are just a compromise for the traditional keyboard layout.

For a real Janko keyboard, I'd go with Roy Pertchik's tri-color.

Joe Austin

[Joseph Austin]

Doug,

I don't know if I can claim credit for "inventing" it,

but if not I've long forgotten how I first became aware of it.

At one point I read that the black keys formed a pentatonic scale,

and that a significant number of "folk tunes" and spirituals use that scale.

Then somehow I realized that if I "scratched out" the B's and F's, 

I could get a "white" pentatonic scale,

and if I added those same notes to the black keys I got a black diatonic scale.

As I mentioned to John K, I'd think it's most useful for curing "black key phobia",

but of course only in the context of an alternative to TN for the key of F#/Gb.

Joe Austin.

[John Keller]

Joseph,

 

The hands ARE played separately in "My Imaginary Friend". I guess the red line has a dual role. At first it was a way of telling the student play this first, then play that; but often my beginner pieces were RH first then LH in the lower octave, so I realised that the red dividing line could also represent the middle line of the ES.

 

To start off, all my young students read the music with the page in portrait orientation, ie the stave is vertical. They play to the right or the left just as the notes go, reading down the page.  Then I ask them "where do the notes sound like birds and where are the frogs?", and so we draw the sky on the right and the ground on the left. So then we start reading horizontally and the kids have to realise that on top means to the right and below means to the left. I had quite a few pieces on this, because there are various different terms they have to get used to - high and low, up and down, top and bottom, above and below, under and over.

 

Most of my students have the normal ES in their books, where black notes are for black keys and grey notes mean white keys. The piece illustrated on my Wiki used to be called "Black Above and White Below". Then recently I started the latest beginner kids on Reverse ES and so I had to change the lyrics and introduce non-colored terminology, such as "naturals" and "extras". I make it seem logical by drawing black noteheads on the white keys and white noteheads on the black keys, as you see in my illustration.

 

But I also had to change the lyrics of songs such as "Black Above and White Below". Hence it became "My Imaginary Friend". It has the implication of "real notes" and "pretend notes", which can be useful in explaining ES versus TN, and HIJKL versus sharps and flats. I also think that by saying to traditional teachers i just use these "imaginary" notes and names to get the kids started, makes the teachers more likely to accept my ideas. That is the strategy anyway.

 

Your way of interpreting ES as having two imaginary lines between the actual lines points out the 6-6 coding, but on the other hand imagining only one line between the real lines allows you to see Roy's triple coding, ie line, then bottom of space then top of space, repeated over. And it also helps you relate ES to TN as in bass clef.

 

My point is that ES has all sorts of coding inherent: 7-5 in colour, 6-6 in shape, 4-4-4 in line/space, key circle position in colour plus notehead position relative to ther line.

 

Cheers,

[Doug Keislar]

Joe,

I'm going to backpedal a bit on the enthusiasm my previous email expressed for coloring the keys of a traditional 7-5 keyboard so that F and B are gray.  I still think it's a good idea, but the 6-6 coloring is a much better idea:
http://musicnotation.org/wiki/instruments/6-6-colored-traditional-7-5-keyboard/

Like the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring, the 6-6 coloring also helps cure black key phobia, since it, too, has equal numbers of black and white keys.

However, the 6-6 coloring does a *much* better job than the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring at clarifying pitch structures, which was the advantage my previous email was investigating regarding the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring.  As my previous email pointed out, the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring has color reversibility when transposing by a tritone, resulting in up to six different color patterns (plus their six inverses) for a given pitch structure in all transpositions.  But the 6-6 coloring has color reversibility when transposing by six intervals, and (even better) color identity when transposing by the other five intervals.  This results in only one color pattern (plus its inverse) for a given pitch structure in all transpositions. 

Of course, as we know, a 6-6 (or 4-4-4) keyboard does even a better job at clarifying pitch structures, since the physical layout, rather than the coloring, is isomorphic, and the physical layout is much more important.

I would say that the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring has two advantages over the 6-6 coloring, which John Keller or you have mentioned:
(1) it's easy for a beginner to see how to play a major scale and a pentatonic scale -- but only in two transpositions (C and Gb).
(2) it reflects the circle of fifths, in the sense that one contiguous region of the circle is black (flats/sharps) and another contiguous region is white.

John Keller has argued in the past for (2) in support of 7-5 coloring of note heads in a notation system.  It lets you see when music is modulating to a new key, because the ratio of black to white notes changes.  Pushing back a bit against the argument for (2), I'd say that the 6-6 coloring also reflects the circle of fifths, but in a different way.  Instead of dividing the circle into two contiguous regions, one containing black and the other containing white notes, it divides the circle into two non-contiguous but regularly spaced sets of alternating black and white notes.  The advantage of the 7-5 coloring is that it correlates with the traditional keyboard and the traditional note names (ignoring anomalies like Cb and B#).  But one could argue that such correlation isn't necessarily an important goal, because the traditional keyboard layout is inferior (compared with an isomorphic layout) and the traditional note names are arbitrary.  If you're going to play a traditional 7-5 keyboard, you don't need the coloring to also be 7-5 -- whereas the 7-5 coloring is paradoxically very helpful on an isomorphic keyboard, for visual orientation.  It's probably even true that a 6-6 coloring on a 7-5 keyboard helps a bit with visual orientation, compared to 7-5 coloring, because it makes the octaves more distinct.  (On the traditional keyboard, there's an unbroken horizontal line of sight along the front portion of the white keys; the 6-6 coloring breaks that up.)

Doug

[Joseph Austin]

Doug,

You really should try Roy Pertchik's 3-color system before making a final decision!

http://collaborativepiano.blogspot.com/2009/10/tri-chromatic-keyboard.html#.UV88FI7vi_c

One "advantage" of F-B gray is it's a relatively easy mod for an existing keyboard--

a few of strategically-placed stickers would do it.

Once you have the pattern in your head, you don't even need the stickers--

just remember the two keys between the groups of the 3 blacks and the 3 whites.

In any case, the color system only helps if you're looking at the keys rather than the music.

Which would mean you're playing by "ear" or remembering the song in solfedge.

In that case, I think it would be an advantage, especially for beginners, 

to learn to play in "two keys for the price of one"--especially two keys half an octave apart.

Joe Austin

[roy pertchik]

Thanks Joe, my trichromatic keyboard is marvelously playable, proven technology, upon which it's conceptually much easier to find beautiful harmony...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGXmPzspJWI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ARUuWEMRik 

Roy Pertchik
Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB Cert.
381 Oxford Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306
917 294 6605

[Doug Keislar]

Right.  Roy's system puts a 4-4-4 coloring on a 6-6 key layout.

I wonder how many people have experimented with 4-4-4 coloring, or 3-3-3-3 coloring, on a traditional 7-5 key layout.  Or with 3-3-3-3 coloring on a 6-6 layout.  (That's a slightly more obvious pattern, and maybe not as interesting, as Roy's 4-4-4 coloring on a 6-6 layout, since a given color is always in the same row.)  Or with various colorings on a 4-4-4 layout.  Lots of possibilities...

I think the greatest benefit comes from an isomorphic physical layout.  The coloring is secondary.  I suppose most of us who have played isomorphic keyboards would agree.

Doug

[Joseph Austin]

John,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

I can see how the single "virtual" line interpretation offers the ability to recognize minor thirds,

and of course the notehead shapes reveal major thirds via "same-shape skipping one."

In any case, from a score-writer point of view, there are five note positions between the lines,

whether we call them four spaces and one line or three spaces and two lines.

I admire you for having not only the imagination to develop a notation, 

but also the courage to actually use and teach it!

I'm sure that experience is leading you toward more and more effective solutions.

I'm curious what reaction you get from you students and their parents.

Presumably they must eventually accept TN as a fact of life.

But do they try to hold on to ES also, considering it a superior tool, even creating their own arrangements,

or do they regard it as a mere "beginner's crutch" to be abandoned once they get to "real" music?

Also, since you also do strings, what insights do you have on ES for those instruments?

I've been working from the concept that the noteheads represent the music 

while the staff represents the instrument.  That seems reasonable for keyboard,

possible for strings, but I have no idea whether it's even useful for valve instruments.

In any case, I regard these alternative notations as a way OUT of TN, not a way INTO it.

That's one reason I'm not so interested in explaining them in relation to the traditional staff.

I'd rather focus on how they relate to scales and chords and melodic / harmonic progressions--

and let's not forget rhythm patterns, especially since recent music has such fascination with syncopation.

Joe Austin

[Ken Rushton]

There can be more than the objective of showing patterns and symmetry, nice 'tho they may be for composition.

 

I like my colour scheme on the WH layout . While it does not show the repeating patterns, diminished, augmented, triads etc., it does assign a unique color combination to each note. This strongly aids the development of both a relative and absolute pitch sense.

 

The pattern helps translate back to reading good-old (yeech!) Traditional Notation, that I have decided to live with.

 

The bottom line:

  1. Finally I am getting the ability to sit down at my jammers with a score and play it immediately, thanks in part to my coloring scheme.

  2. My pitch-sense is way better.

 

...  Just my 2 cents. :)

 

Ken. www.musicScienceGuy.com

[Music Integrated Solution]

>> I wonder how many people have experimented with 4-4-4 coloring, or 3-3-3-3 coloring, on a traditional 7-5 key layout. 

I have, as well as with the guitar

http://musicintegratedsolution.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-reference-heads-are-link-of-mis.html

however, it only makes sense if we use a correlated notation or think of music in such kind of system, that kind of orientation is useless for people reading TN or thinking in terms of natural notes and accidentals.

 

Originally I also put W/B electric tape covering the whole key, and every piano player that saw it said it was senseless and confusing for them, it did not surprise me at all, I have always been aware that only an integrated system works. Roy instrument has both things I appreciate, the isomorphic layout and a kind of orientation that correlates with the RHN and theory.

 

I removed the tape, cleaned the keyboard and stick little heads (four per octave) in the rear part away from the keys; it works the same without disturbing anybody.

 

Enrique.

[Doug Keislar]

Hi Enrique,

http://musicintegratedsolution.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-reference-heads-are-link-of-mis.html

Thanks, that's a great Web page.  I had seen it before, I believe, or at least some of the illustrations.

I suppose you are considering the reference heads an example of 3-3-3-3.  If so, we might need to come up with more specific terminology to distinguish different approaches.  Your RHN has 4 groups of notehead types (what you call reference heads):
  solid rectangle
  hollow rectangle
  solid circle
  hollow circle

RHN is, I think, unique, in that the notes within each group are contiguous.  So an ascending chromatic scale is (for example):
  three notes of solid rectangle
  three notes of hollow rectangle
  three notes of solid circle
  three notes of hollow circle

This system is feasible because of the note trace, which actually gives each notehead a unique appearance.

Superficially, it's similar to what I meant by a 3-3-3-3 coloring, in that there are four groups of notehead types, with three notes in each group.  An important difference is that in what people have been calling 6-6, 4-4-4, 3-3-3-3, and 2-2-2-2-2-2 the notehead types are alternating (cyclic), meaning that notes within a group are separated (not contiguous as in RHN).

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/music-theory/isomorphism/

In RHN, there is actually a cycling within each group: the bottom, middle, and top placement of the traces.  So you have
3 trace positions x 2 reference head shapes x 2 reference head colors = 12 notes.

One way to refer to the RHN approach might be 3x2x2 (rather than 3-3-3-3).  In this nomenclature, the more frequently occurring cycle (the group of three trace positions) comes first.

Doug

[Music Integrated Solution]

Thanks Doug, it is actually confusing the 4-4-4 and 3-3-3-3 pattern classification because as you said there are 4 distinctive groups with 3 notes (looking at the heads) however there are also 3 distinctive groups of notes considering their position on the heads (bottom, middle, top), which is what I actually use theoretically.

 

In other words I see it as a 4-4-4 because there are 4 bottom, 4 middle and 4 top, regardless of shapes and colors, which is to what I give more relevance and usage.

 

I used the name “reference head” because heads provide a reference to discriminate the notes, which are represented entirely by traces or line-segments. In that way we don't need the wider piano staff of 5 lines and 7 spaces for pitch discrimination, which is a big and cluttering background.

 

That innovation allows reducing functionally the width of the notes in the piano roll type of notation to lines (as those on staves), allowing maximum compression and improving readability to what I intend to call trace-notation.

 

Enrique.

[Doug Keislar]

Hi Enrique,

Oh, I see.� You're right, it is indeed 4-4-4, in terms of the traces' positions relative to the reference heads, not in terms of coloring (or reference head shape).

Your idea of reducing the conventional piano-roll bars to narrow lines is a good one, and I see how the reference head is a solution to the removal of the 12 black or white background� "lanes" onto which the conventional bars are overlaid.

It would be nice to see an MNP wiki page about piano-roll style notations, and extensions of them such as RHN.�

Doug

On 4/8/2013 2:58 PM, Music Integrated Solution wrote:

Thanks Doug, it is actually confusing the 4-4-4 and 3-3-3-3 pattern classification because as you said there are 4 distinctive groups with 3 notes (looking at the heads) however there are also 3 distinctive groups of notes considering their position on the heads (bottom, middle, top), which is what I actually use theoretically.

�

In other words I see it as a 4-4-4 because there are 4 bottom, 4 middle and 4 top, regardless of shapes and colors, which is to what I give more relevance and usage.

�

I used the name �reference head� because heads provide a reference to discriminate the notes, which are represented entirely by traces or line-segments. In that way we�don't�need the wider piano staff of 5 lines and 7 spaces for pitch discrimination, which is a big and cluttering background.

�

That innovation allows reducing functionally the width of the notes in the piano roll type of notation to lines (as those on staves), allowing maximum compression and improving readability to what I intend to call trace-notation.

�

Enrique.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Doug Keislar <do...@musclefish.com> wrote:

Hi Enrique,

http://musicintegratedsolution.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-reference-heads-are-link-of-mis.html

Thanks, that's a great Web page.� I had seen it before, I believe, or at least some of the illustrations.

I suppose you are considering the reference heads an example of 3-3-3-3.� If so, we might need to come up with more specific terminology to distinguish different approaches.� Your RHN has 4 groups of notehead types (what you call reference heads):
� solid rectangle
� hollow rectangle
� solid circle
� hollow circle

RHN is, I think, unique, in that the notes within each group are contiguous.� So an ascending chromatic scale is (for example):
� three notes of solid rectangle
� three notes of hollow rectangle
� three notes of solid circle
� three notes of hollow circle

This system is feasible because of the note trace, which actually gives each notehead a unique appearance.

Superficially, it's similar to what I meant by a 3-3-3-3 coloring, in that there are four groups of notehead types, with three notes in each group.� An important difference is that in what people have been calling 6-6, 4-4-4, 3-3-3-3, and 2-2-2-2-2-2 the notehead types are alternating (cyclic), meaning that notes within a group are separated (not contiguous as in RHN).

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/music-theory/isomorphism/

In RHN, there is actually a cycling within each group: the bottom, middle, and top placement of the traces.� So you have

3 trace positions x 2 reference head shapes x 2 reference head colors = 12 notes.

One way to refer to the RHN approach might be 3x2x2 (rather than 3-3-3-3).� In this nomenclature, the more frequently occurring cycle (the group of three trace positions) comes first.

Doug

On 4/6/2013 7:16 AM, Music Integrated Solution wrote:

>> I wonder how many people have experimented with 4-4-4 coloring, or 3-3-3-3 coloring, on a traditional 7-5 key layout.�

I have, as well as with the guitar

http://musicintegratedsolution.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-reference-heads-are-link-of-mis.html

however, it only makes sense if we use a correlated notation or think of music in such kind of system, that kind of orientation is useless for people reading TN or thinking in terms of natural notes and accidentals.

�

Originally I also put W/B electric tape covering the whole key, and every piano player that saw it said it was senseless and confusing for them, it did not surprise me at all, I have always been aware that only an integrated system works. Roy instrument has both things I appreciate, the isomorphic layout and a kind of orientation that correlates with the RHN and theory.

�

I removed the tape, cleaned the keyboard and stick little heads (four per octave) in the rear part away from the keys; it works the same without disturbing anybody.

�

Enrique.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Doug Keislar <do...@musclefish.com> wrote:

Right.� Roy's system puts a 4-4-4 coloring on a 6-6 key layout.

I wonder how many people have experimented with 4-4-4 coloring, or 3-3-3-3 coloring, on a traditional 7-5 key layout.� Or with 3-3-3-3 coloring on a 6-6 layout.� (That's a slightly more obvious pattern, and maybe not as interesting, as Roy's 4-4-4 coloring on a 6-6 layout, since a given color is always in the same row.)� Or with various colorings on a 4-4-4 layout.� Lots of possibilities...

I think the greatest benefit comes from an isomorphic physical layout.� The coloring is secondary.� I suppose most of us who have played isomorphic keyboards would agree.

Doug

On 4/5/2013 2:46 PM, Joseph Austin wrote:

Doug,

You really should try Roy Pertchik's 3-color system before making a final decision!

http://collaborativepiano.blogspot.com/2009/10/tri-chromatic-keyboard.html#.UV88FI7vi_c

One "advantage" of F-B gray is it's a relatively easy mod for an existing keyboard--

a few of strategically-placed stickers would do it.

Once you have the pattern in your head, you don't even need the stickers--

just remember the two keys between the groups of the 3 blacks and the 3 whites.

In any case, the color system only helps if you're looking at the keys rather than the music.

Which would mean you're playing by "ear" or remembering the song in solfedge.

In that case, I think it would be an advantage, especially for beginners,�

to learn to play in "two keys for the price of one"--especially two keys half an octave apart.

Joe Austin

On Apr 5, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Doug Keislar wrote:

Joe,

I'm going to backpedal a bit on the enthusiasm my previous email expressed for coloring the keys of a traditional 7-5 keyboard so that F and B are gray.� I still think it's a good idea, but the 6-6 coloring is a much better idea:

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/instruments/6-6-colored-traditional-7-5-keyboard/

Like the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring, the 6-6 coloring also helps cure black key phobia, since it, too, has equal numbers of black and white keys.

However, the 6-6 coloring does a *much* better job than the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring at clarifying pitch structures, which was the advantage my previous email was investigating regarding the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring.� As my previous email pointed out, the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring has color reversibility when transposing by a tritone, resulting in up to six different color patterns (plus their six inverses) for a given pitch structure in all transpositions.� But the 6-6 coloring has color reversibility when transposing by six intervals, and (even better) color identity when transposing by the other five intervals.� This results in only one color pattern (plus its inverse) for a given pitch structure in all transpositions.�

Of course, as we know, a 6-6 (or 4-4-4) keyboard does even a better job at clarifying pitch structures, since the physical layout, rather than the coloring, is isomorphic, and the physical layout is much more important.

I would say that the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring has two advantages over the 6-6 coloring, which John Keller or you have mentioned:
(1) it's easy for a beginner to see how to play a major scale and a pentatonic scale -- but only in two transpositions (C and Gb).
(2) it reflects the circle of fifths, in the sense that one contiguous region of the circle is black (flats/sharps) and another contiguous region is white.

John Keller has argued in the past for (2) in support of 7-5 coloring of note heads in a notation system.� It lets you see when music is modulating to a new key, because the ratio of black to white notes changes.� Pushing back a bit against the argument for (2), I'd say that the 6-6 coloring also reflects the circle of fifths, but in a different way.� Instead of dividing the circle into two contiguous regions, one containing black and the other containing white notes, it divides the circle into two non-contiguous but regularly spaced sets of alternating black and white notes.� The advantage of the 7-5 coloring is that it correlates with the traditional keyboard and the traditional note names (ignoring anomalies like Cb and B#).� But one could argue that such correlation isn't necessarily an important goal, because the traditional keyboard layout is inferior (compared with an isomorphic layout) and the traditional note names are arbitrary.� If you're going to play a traditional 7-5 keyboard, you don't need the coloring to also be 7-5 -- whereas the 7-5 coloring is paradoxically very helpful on an isomorphic keyboard, for visual orientation.� It's probably even true that a 6-6 coloring on a 7-5 keyboard helps a bit with visual orientation, compared to 7-5 coloring, because it makes the octaves more distinct.� (On the traditional keyboard, there's an unbroken horizontal line of sight along the front portion of the white keys; the 6-6 coloring breaks that up.)

Doug

On 4/4/2013 8:06 PM, Joseph Austin wrote:

Doug,

I don't know if I can claim credit for "inventing" it,

but if not I've long forgotten how I first became aware of it.

At one point I read that the black keys formed a pentatonic scale,

and that a significant number of "folk tunes" and spirituals use that scale.

Then somehow I realized that if I "scratched out" the B's and F's,�

I could get a "white" pentatonic scale,

and if I added those same notes to the black keys I got a black diatonic scale.

As I mentioned to John K, I'd think it's most useful for curing "black key phobia",

but of course only in the context of an alternative to TN for the key of F#/Gb.

Joe Austin.

On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:23 PM, Doug Keislar wrote:

Joe, this is a great idea:

BTW, regarding color, I've often been tempted to color all the B's and F's gray,�

so the keyboards would then have complete black/white "reversibility".

They would then also match your "gray" line/spaces between Ls and Ds,

the two notes that never touch a line.

Then C would then be a "white" scale and K a "black" scale, each with two extra "gray" notes,

which, the way I prefer to think of it, are the notes added to the pentatonic scale to get the diatonic.

It wasn't immediately obvious to me, and probably not to others, that this reversibility is true not just of the C major scale versus the "K" (Gb) major scale, but of ANY pitch structure.� Any pitch structure transposed by a tritone results in the reverse color pattern: black becomes white, white becomes black, gray stays gray.

For example, major scales (W= white, B=black, G=gray):

C:� WWWGWWGW
Gb: BBBGBBGB

Db: BBGBBBWB
G:� WWGWWWBW

D:� WWBWWGBW
Ab: BBWBBGWB

Eb: BGWBBWWB
A:� WGBWWBBW

E:� WBBWGBBW
Bb: BWWBGWWB

F:� GWWBWWWG
B:� GBBWBBBG

major seventh chords:

C:� WWWG
Gb: BBBG

Db: BGBW
G:� WGWB

etc.

Not as amazing as isomorphic keyboards (because for a given pitch structure you have to learn up to six color patterns and their inverses, instead of just two inverse physical patterns), but nifty nonetheless.� Was this idea your own?� (Do I remember John Keller coloring a keyboard this way?)

Doug

On 4/4/2013 11:12 AM, Joseph Austin wrote:

John,

Since you asked:

* The Express Stave Guide is pretty clear as far as it goes, but I'd add a few things:

1. A brief statement of rationale, e.g. non-ambiguity, octave symmetry

2. Since your color scheme "breaks" the traditional timing notation,

I'd include mention of the half/whole note duration notation changes.

You have those things in other documents, but inclusion in the Guide would make it more self-standing.

3. I found the notehead color discussion not helpful.

(--Here's a rule that applies except for the times it doesn't--which is about half the times--).

The real rule is: the colors match the keyboard;�

(or, for the reverse color version, are the opposite of the keyboard, because...?).

See below for my preferred color system.

�

4. I also found the Similarity with TN discussion unhelpful.

In general, I think it would be better not to mention traditional notation,�

except when discussing the deficiencies of TN.

Your notation and staff really isn't related to TN in any significant way--I'd stick to it's relation to the keyboard.

BTW, regarding color, I've often been tempted to color all the B's and F's gray,�

so the keyboards would then have complete black/white "reversibility".

They would then also match your "gray" line/spaces between Ls and Ds,

the two notes that never touch a line.

Then C would then be a "white" scale and K a "black" scale, each with two extra "gray" notes,

which, the way I prefer to think of it, are the notes added to the pentatonic scale to get the diatonic.

Then, I'd transpose all "beginner" key F and G music to K.�

With that, you could get thru the first year�of lessons�

with the same color pattern: XXXyXXy

Another thing: have you ever experimented with different note shapes, e.g. square and diamond?

Just a thought!

Joe Austin

On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:44 PM, John Keller wrote:

Hello everyone,

�

I�have added some information on Express Stave to the Wiki. Please have a look at the Express Stave Guide in particular and let me know what you think. Is it easy to understand etc?

�

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

�

John Keller

----- Original Message -----

From:�John Keller

To:�musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent:�Thursday, March 14, 2013 5:13 AM

Subject:�[MNP] Express Stave font

Hello everyone,

�

I tweaked the design of the noteheads in my ES font by making the sloping noteheads (the "bigs")�a little�slimmer, so that all noteheads now appear to have the same weight to the eye. I think this looks good aesthetically. Major thirds (4 semitones) have a slight gap between their�like-shaped noteheads, and now that gap is more consistent whether the M3rd�comprises "bigs" (even key signatures) or "smalls" (odd key signatures).

�

You can see the font in my latest pdf version in the Wiki. Do you agree with my evaluation?

http://musicnotation.org/w/images/b/bc/Ravel_-_Valses_nobles_et_sentimentales_reverse_ES_font_4.pdf

�

As�I play through these lovely pieces I can clearly see all the intervals.

�

Ravel is an amazing craftsman here. The jazz voicing root position chords in waltz 1 measures 57-59 make�one complete key clock revolution, D G C F�H J L I K�B E A D. See how the bass notes alternate�between bigs�and smalls and descend over their stave�lines through the naturals ( - black noteheads) and the extras (accidentals - white noteheads).�

�

I attach the�.ttf font for anyone who would like to use it with Finale.

�

Cheers,

John Keller

�

�

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[Music Integrated Solution]

>> It would be nice to see an MNP wiki page about piano-roll style notations, and extensions of them such as RHN. 

Yes, eventually I could make some contribution as I have some drafts for future posts; that is one of the reasons why I opened “Trace notation” for sort of getting to a consensus or cook some ideas first.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Doug Keislar <do...@musclefish.com> wrote:

Hi Enrique,

Oh, I see.  You're right, it is indeed 4-4-4, in terms of the traces' positions relative to the reference heads, not in terms of coloring (or reference head shape).

Your idea of reducing the conventional piano-roll bars to narrow lines is a good one, and I see how the reference head is a solution to the removal of the 12 black or white background  "lanes" onto which the conventional bars are overlaid.

It would be nice to see an MNP wiki page about piano-roll style notations, and extensions of them such as RHN. 

Doug

On 4/8/2013 2:58 PM, Music Integrated Solution wrote:

Thanks Doug, it is actually confusing the 4-4-4 and 3-3-3-3 pattern classification because as you said there are 4 distinctive groups with 3 notes (looking at the heads) however there are also 3 distinctive groups of notes considering their position on the heads (bottom, middle, top), which is what I actually use theoretically.

 

In other words I see it as a 4-4-4 because there are 4 bottom, 4 middle and 4 top, regardless of shapes and colors, which is to what I give more relevance and usage.

 

I used the name “reference head” because heads provide a reference to discriminate the notes, which are represented entirely by traces or line-segments. In that way we don't need the wider piano staff of 5 lines and 7 spaces for pitch discrimination, which is a big and cluttering background.

 

That innovation allows reducing functionally the width of the notes in the piano roll type of notation to lines (as those on staves), allowing maximum compression and improving readability to what I intend to call trace-notation.

 

Enrique.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Doug Keislar <do...@musclefish.com> wrote:

Hi Enrique,

http://musicintegratedsolution.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-reference-heads-are-link-of-mis.html

Thanks, that's a great Web page.  I had seen it before, I believe, or at least some of the illustrations.

I suppose you are considering the reference heads an example of 3-3-3-3.  If so, we might need to come up with more specific terminology to distinguish different approaches.  Your RHN has 4 groups of notehead types (what you call reference heads):
  solid rectangle
  hollow rectangle
  solid circle

  hollow circle

RHN is, I think, unique, in that the notes within each group are contiguous.  So an ascending chromatic scale is (for example):

  three notes of solid rectangle

  three notes of hollow rectangle

  three notes of solid circle

  three notes of hollow circle

This system is feasible because of the note trace, which actually gives each notehead a unique appearance.

Superficially, it's similar to what I meant by a 3-3-3-3 coloring, in that there are four groups of notehead types, with three notes in each group.  An important difference is that in what people have been calling 6-6, 4-4-4, 3-3-3-3, and 2-2-2-2-2-2 the notehead types are alternating (cyclic), meaning that notes within a group are separated (not contiguous as in RHN).

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/music-theory/isomorphism/

In RHN, there is actually a cycling within each group: the bottom, middle, and top placement of the traces.  So you have

3 trace positions x 2 reference head shapes x 2 reference head colors = 12 notes.

One way to refer to the RHN approach might be 3x2x2 (rather than 3-3-3-3).  In this nomenclature, the more frequently occurring cycle (the group of three trace positions) comes first.

Doug

On 4/6/2013 7:16 AM, Music Integrated Solution wrote:

>> I wonder how many people have experimented with 4-4-4 coloring, or 3-3-3-3 coloring, on a traditional 7-5 key layout. 

I have, as well as with the guitar

http://musicintegratedsolution.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-reference-heads-are-link-of-mis.html

however, it only makes sense if we use a correlated notation or think of music in such kind of system, that kind of orientation is useless for people reading TN or thinking in terms of natural notes and accidentals.

 

Originally I also put W/B electric tape covering the whole key, and every piano player that saw it said it was senseless and confusing for them, it did not surprise me at all, I have always been aware that only an integrated system works. Roy instrument has both things I appreciate, the isomorphic layout and a kind of orientation that correlates with the RHN and theory.

 

I removed the tape, cleaned the keyboard and stick little heads (four per octave) in the rear part away from the keys; it works the same without disturbing anybody.

 

Enrique.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Doug Keislar <do...@musclefish.com> wrote:

Right.  Roy's system puts a 4-4-4 coloring on a 6-6 key layout.

I wonder how many people have experimented with 4-4-4 coloring, or 3-3-3-3 coloring, on a traditional 7-5 key layout.  Or with 3-3-3-3 coloring on a 6-6 layout.  (That's a slightly more obvious pattern, and maybe not as interesting, as Roy's 4-4-4 coloring on a 6-6 layout, since a given color is always in the same row.)  Or with various colorings on a 4-4-4 layout.  Lots of possibilities...

I think the greatest benefit comes from an isomorphic physical layout.  The coloring is secondary.  I suppose most of us who have played isomorphic keyboards would agree.

Doug

On 4/5/2013 2:46 PM, Joseph Austin wrote:

Doug,

You really should try Roy Pertchik's 3-color system before making a final decision!

http://collaborativepiano.blogspot.com/2009/10/tri-chromatic-keyboard.html#.UV88FI7vi_c

One "advantage" of F-B gray is it's a relatively easy mod for an existing keyboard--

a few of strategically-placed stickers would do it.

Once you have the pattern in your head, you don't even need the stickers--

just remember the two keys between the groups of the 3 blacks and the 3 whites.

In any case, the color system only helps if you're looking at the keys rather than the music.

Which would mean you're playing by "ear" or remembering the song in solfedge.

In that case, I think it would be an advantage, especially for beginners, 

to learn to play in "two keys for the price of one"--especially two keys half an octave apart.

Joe Austin

On Apr 5, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Doug Keislar wrote:

Joe,

I'm going to backpedal a bit on the enthusiasm my previous email expressed for coloring the keys of a traditional 7-5 keyboard so that F and B are gray.  I still think it's a good idea, but the 6-6 coloring is a much better idea:

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/instruments/6-6-colored-traditional-7-5-keyboard/

Like the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring, the 6-6 coloring also helps cure black key phobia, since it, too, has equal numbers of black and white keys.

However, the 6-6 coloring does a *much* better job than the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring at clarifying pitch structures, which was the advantage my previous email was investigating regarding the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring.  As my previous email pointed out, the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring has color reversibility when transposing by a tritone, resulting in up to six different color patterns (plus their six inverses) for a given pitch structure in all transpositions.  But the 6-6 coloring has color reversibility when transposing by six intervals, and (even better) color identity when transposing by the other five intervals.  This results in only one color pattern (plus its inverse) for a given pitch structure in all transpositions. 

Of course, as we know, a 6-6 (or 4-4-4) keyboard does even a better job at clarifying pitch structures, since the physical layout, rather than the coloring, is isomorphic, and the physical layout is much more important.

I would say that the traditional-plus-gray-F-and-B coloring has two advantages over the 6-6 coloring, which John Keller or you have mentioned:
(1) it's easy for a beginner to see how to play a major scale and a pentatonic scale -- but only in two transpositions (C and Gb).
(2) it reflects the circle of fifths, in the sense that one contiguous region of the circle is black (flats/sharps) and another contiguous region is white.

John Keller has argued in the past for (2) in support of 7-5 coloring of note heads in a notation system.  It lets you see when music is modulating to a new key, because the ratio of black to white notes changes.  Pushing back a bit against the argument for (2), I'd say that the 6-6 coloring also reflects the circle of fifths, but in a different way.  Instead of dividing the circle into two contiguous regions, one containing black and the other containing white notes, it divides the circle into two non-contiguous but regularly spaced sets of alternating black and white notes.  The advantage of the 7-5 coloring is that it correlates with the traditional keyboard and the traditional note names (ignoring anomalies like Cb and B#).  But one could argue that such correlation isn't necessarily an important goal, because the traditional keyboard layout is inferior (compared with an isomorphic layout) and the traditional note names are arbitrary.  If you're going to play a traditional 7-5 keyboard, you don't need the coloring to also be 7-5 -- whereas the 7-5 coloring is paradoxically very helpful on an isomorphic keyboard, for visual orientation.  It's probably even true that a 6-6 coloring on a 7-5 keyboard helps a bit with visual orientation, compared to 7-5 coloring, because it makes the octaves more distinct.  (On the traditional keyboard, there's an unbroken horizontal line of sight along the front portion of the white keys; the 6-6 coloring breaks that up.)

Doug

On 4/4/2013 8:06 PM, Joseph Austin wrote:

Doug,

I don't know if I can claim credit for "inventing" it,

but if not I've long forgotten how I first became aware of it.

At one point I read that the black keys formed a pentatonic scale,

and that a significant number of "folk tunes" and spirituals use that scale.

Then somehow I realized that if I "scratched out" the B's and F's, 

I could get a "white" pentatonic scale,

and if I added those same notes to the black keys I got a black diatonic scale.

As I mentioned to John K, I'd think it's most useful for curing "black key phobia",

but of course only in the context of an alternative to TN for the key of F#/Gb.

Joe Austin.

On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:23 PM, Doug Keislar wrote:

Joe, this is a great idea:

BTW, regarding color, I've often been tempted to color all the B's and F's gray, 

so the keyboards would then have complete black/white "reversibility".

They would then also match your "gray" line/spaces between Ls and Ds,

the two notes that never touch a line.

Then C would then be a "white" scale and K a "black" scale, each with two extra "gray" notes,

which, the way I prefer to think of it, are the notes added to the pentatonic scale to get the diatonic.

It wasn't immediately obvious to me, and probably not to others, that this reversibility is true not just of the C major scale versus the "K" (Gb) major scale, but of ANY pitch structure.  Any pitch structure transposed by a tritone results in the reverse color pattern: black becomes white, white becomes black, gray stays gray.

For example, major scales (W= white, B=black, G=gray):

C:  WWWGWWGW
Gb: BBBGBBGB

Db: BBGBBBWB
G:  WWGWWWBW

D:  WWBWWGBW
Ab: BBWBBGWB

Eb: BGWBBWWB
A:  WGBWWBBW

E:  WBBWGBBW
Bb: BWWBGWWB

F:  GWWBWWWG
B:  GBBWBBBG

major seventh chords:

C:  WWWG
Gb: BBBG

Db: BGBW
G:  WGWB

etc.

Not as amazing as isomorphic keyboards (because for a given pitch structure you have to learn up to six color patterns and their inverses, instead of just two inverse physical patterns), but nifty nonetheless.  Was this idea your own?  (Do I remember John Keller coloring a keyboard this way?)

Doug

On 4/4/2013 11:12 AM, Joseph Austin wrote:

John,

Since you asked:

* The Express Stave Guide is pretty clear as far as it goes, but I'd add a few things:

1. A brief statement of rationale, e.g. non-ambiguity, octave symmetry

2. Since your color scheme "breaks" the traditional timing notation,

I'd include mention of the half/whole note duration notation changes.

You have those things in other documents, but inclusion in the Guide would make it more self-standing.

3. I found the notehead color discussion not helpful.

(--Here's a rule that applies except for the times it doesn't--which is about half the times--).

The real rule is: the colors match the keyboard; 

(or, for the reverse color version, are the opposite of the keyboard, because...?).

See below for my preferred color system.

 

4. I also found the Similarity with TN discussion unhelpful.

In general, I think it would be better not to mention traditional notation, 

except when discussing the deficiencies of TN.

Your notation and staff really isn't related to TN in any significant way--I'd stick to it's relation to the keyboard.

BTW, regarding color, I've often been tempted to color all the B's and F's gray, 

so the keyboards would then have complete black/white "reversibility".

They would then also match your "gray" line/spaces between Ls and Ds,

the two notes that never touch a line.

Then C would then be a "white" scale and K a "black" scale, each with two extra "gray" notes,

which, the way I prefer to think of it, are the notes added to the pentatonic scale to get the diatonic.

Then, I'd transpose all "beginner" key F and G music to K. 

With that, you could get thru the first year of lessons 

with the same color pattern: XXXyXXy

Another thing: have you ever experimented with different note shapes, e.g. square and diamond?

Just a thought!

Joe Austin

On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:44 PM, John Keller wrote:

Hello everyone,

 

I have added some information on Express Stave to the Wiki. Please have a look at the Express Stave Guide in particular and let me know what you think. Is it easy to understand etc?

 

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

 

John Keller

----- Original Message -----

From: John Keller

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 5:13 AM

Subject: [MNP] Express Stave font

Hello everyone,

 

I tweaked the design of the noteheads in my ES font by making the sloping noteheads (the "bigs") a little slimmer, so that all noteheads now appear to have the same weight to the eye. I think this looks good aesthetically. Major thirds (4 semitones) have a slight gap between their like-shaped noteheads, and now that gap is more consistent whether the M3rd comprises "bigs" (even key signatures) or "smalls" (odd key signatures).

 

You can see the font in my latest pdf version in the Wiki. Do you agree with my evaluation?

http://musicnotation.org/w/images/b/bc/Ravel_-_Valses_nobles_et_sentimentales_reverse_ES_font_4.pdf

 

As I play through these lovely pieces I can clearly see all the intervals.

 

Ravel is an amazing craftsman here. The jazz voicing root position chords in waltz 1 measures 57-59 make one complete key clock revolution, D G C F H J L I K B E A D. See how the bass notes alternate between bigs and smalls and descend over their stave lines through the naturals ( - black noteheads) and the extras (accidentals - white noteheads). 

 

I attach the .ttf font for anyone who would like to use it with Finale.

 

Cheers,

John Keller