Re: [MNP] Looking for programmers interested in alternative notation for Musescore

[Paul Morris]

Hello jbrundisium@gmail,

It is great to hear of your plans to modify MuseScore for use with alternative notation systems.  I've done work on the same for LilyPond, with some success.  However, in the long run a graphical user interface like the one MuseScore offers is quite desirable.  So I'm really glad to see your interest in this.

I take it you have seen the software section of our website, and the page on MuseScore:

http://musicnotation.org/software/

I am an amateur at programming, self-taught with help from internet tutorials, but I would be glad to help out as far as I can.  I'm familiar with Javascript and Scheme (which is used with LilyPond), but have not used C/C++ before.  I am not opposed to learning however.  

I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this.  I take it you are a C/C++ programmer?

All the best,

-Paul

On May 23, 2013, at 12:20 PM, jbrun...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello fellow dreamers!

If anyone here wants to actually implement a Simplified Music scheme, I'm looking for collaborators on a project I'm doing.  I intend to modify the Musescore software http://musescore.org/ so that the user may easily experiment with another notation scheme.  Musescore is free under the GNU license, and its source code is documented and maintained by an active community.  

This won't be a mere plugin.  Plugins and other "surface level hacks" are slow, need constant resetting, and will never get us where we want to go.  A real project will require deep changes to the source code.  This won't be simple, but imagine the possibilities once its realized!  We could finally have a free and adaptable piece of software for our notation ideas.  We could convert and test thousands of compositions!

Obviously, there are details and logistics to hammer out.  So, if there is anyone else here with programming experience in C/C++, please let me know.  I would be happy to schedule real time discussions via Skype or Google hangout.

Thank you.

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[Joseph Austin]

Hello fellow dreamer!

I've had some experience with C++.

I've also been experimenting with alternative notation using more primitive tools such as spreadsheets and text processors.  You can review my progress to date on my website:

DrTechDaddy.com, menubar item Music.

I have developed a system that can generate and print a modified Klavar-style score as an html webpage.

Here's an example.

The xls file is the raw entry score as a spreadsheet; 

the html is the output of a csv to html translator I wrote in Java,

(but the process can be done by hand using techniques described on my website); 

the pdf is the print version generated by the browser, in my case, Safari.

[Paul Morris]

Here's a helpful page on the "Design & Implementation" of MuseScore.  Nice big PDF images of how the code is organized:

http://musescore.org/en/developers-handbook/references/design-implementation

If you click through to the PDF for "Elements and Score objects model" you can see where different staff types are represented.  (See attached image.)  It seems like we would want to create a custom staff type that would exist alongside the standard ("pitched"), percussion, and tablature staff types.  This just seems like it might be a good place to start?

-Paul

[jbrun...@gmail.com]

I thought I sent a reply here last week, but I can't seem to find it on the page.

Anyways, if folks here are interested, the first real step is to compile Musescore and set up Qt Creator.

http://musescore.org/en/developers-handbook/compilation

Make sure to post back once this is done.

[Paul Morris]

On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Jan Braunstein <ja...@post.cz> wrote:

Just a little off-topic side note: The Chromatic Lyre Notation has now become a standard for modern lyre students at the International Conservatoire in Prague so the need of a notation software is getting urgent and the chromatic Musescore would be a dream...

Congratulations Jan!  That's great news.  I assume this means an accepted alternative to the traditional notation system?

Maybe it's not as user-friendly as MuseScore, but LilyPond can produce music in your Chromatic Lyre Notation already.  See the following wiki page:

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/software-wiki/lilypond/

Feel free to ask me any questions about it.  Maybe I can put together an example for you if you want.  You can see some examples of TwinNote produced by LilyPond here:

http://twinnote.org/sheet-music/

All the best,

-Paul

[Jan Braunstein]

Hello jbrundisium,

this is a great idea. I was experimenting with Musescore and tried to use it with the Chromatic Lyre Notation. But it was just too much tweaking and workarounds to get something reasonable from it...

So I was just wondering whether there is any progress so far with the custom chromatic version of Musescore . Do you intend to make it customizable for different variants of chromatic notation? If so, I would be happy to participate, although I am not a programmer but maybe there are things I could handle, such as creating custom fonts, graphics etc. To my undrestanding the Simplified Music scheme is in fact really just a simplified version of traditional  notation and the required changes in Musescore would be just a few. But the question is whether you intend to go beyond implementing just that.

 

All the best!

Jan

 

 

Just a little off-topic side note: The Chromatic Lyre Notation has now become a standard for students of modern lyre at the International Conservatoire in Prague so the need of a notation software is getting urgent and the chromatic Musescore would be a dream...

[Jan Braunstein]

On Monday, August 19, 2013 8:26:50 PM UTC+2, Paul Morris wrote:

 

Congratulations Jan!  That's great news.  I assume this means an accepted alternative to the traditional notation system?

Maybe it's not as user-friendly as MuseScore, but LilyPond can produce music in your Chromatic Lyre Notation already.  See the following wiki page:

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/software-wiki/lilypond/

 

Feel free to ask me any questions about it.  Maybe I can put together an example for you if you want.  You can see some examples of TwinNote produced by LilyPond here:

http://twinnote.org/sheet-music/

All the best,

-Paul

 

 

Hi Paul!

Thanks. Well, it is accepted by a few lyre players but since it is at the conservatoire, I guess we can call it a success :)

 

I just looked at your scores created with Lilypond and they look great (so does your website by the way) and I really enjoy the fact that I can easily read them.

The thing is that I need something that also my students could use. And last time I checked, it was a bit like programming in Lilypond. But I can be wrong...

Also in Chromatic Lyre Notation there are some special things such as tilted noteheads for sharps/flats, minims without stems, stems without noteheads etc. Would it be possible to create the score like the one in the attachment in Lilypond?

 

All the best!

Jan

 

 

[Jan Braunstein]

classic... forgot the attachment...

[Paul Morris]

On Aug 19, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Jan Braunstein <ja...@post.cz> wrote:

> Thanks. Well, it is accepted by a few lyre players but since it is at the conservatoire, I guess we can call it a success :)

I'd say so!

> I just looked at your scores created with Lilypond and they look great (so does your website by the way) and I really enjoy the fact that I can easily read them.

Thanks!

> The thing is that I need something that also my students could use. And last time I checked, it was a bit like programming in Lilypond. But I can be wrong...

Yes, it is basically like that. I think of it as similar to writing html by hand. There is a bit of a learning curve. Tools like Frescobaldi help (http://www.frescobaldi.org/) but it's not a point and click "GUI" like MuseScore.

I haven't tried it yet, but Denemo is a free application that provides a point-and-click GUI interface and outputs to LilyPond, so you could potentially use it to enter and edit the music and then output to LilyPond where it can then be converted to Chromatic Lyre Notation. (http://www.denemo.org/)

Or you could use MuseScore, output to MusicXML, and then import to LilyPond that way.

> Also in Chromatic Lyre Notation there are some special things

I'd need to know more about the details, but I think there's a good chance that those kinds of things could be done. LilyPond is very flexible and the output is very customizable with the use of Scheme.

> such as tilted noteheads for sharps/flats, minims without stems,

These should be pretty straightforward to do, I think.

> stems without noteheads etc.

This might be more tricky. Is this for tied notes?

> Would it be possible to create the score like the one in the attachment in Lilypond?

I think so, but the question is probably not whether but how difficult it would be to do what you need to do.

By the way, nice score! Did you do it with MuseScore?

Cheers,
-Paul

[Paul Morris]

On Aug 19, 2013, at 4:09 PM, Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com> wrote:

>> stems without noteheads etc.
>
> This might be more tricky. Is this for tied notes?

Well... creating stems without noteheads is not hard, but it may be tricky to automatically do it just for tied notes, if that's what's called for.

-Paul

[Jan Braunstein]

 

Thanks Paul! 

 

So perhaps creating (even a basic) graphical editor for Lilypond and chromatic notation would be a way to go rather than modifying Musescore.

 

The score was created with older version of Finale (using a custom percussion layout). It works best from what I have tried so far but it also means solving a lot of problems and most of the solutions are still just workarounds. Also in the recent version of Finale, everything works a bit differently, particularly the staff styles so it does not work so well anymore. Maybe we could try contacting the guys from Makemusic and ask them whether they can help. But I would not bet on that. I stopped using Musescore since it was just too much effort to create even simple scores. There are a few things though, that would not require a lot of changes in the code and that would already make it usable. I remember we both posted some suggestions in their forum but there was not much response. Maybe someone might give it a shot again :)

 

I think that we still need a better solution of this so the musicians willing to use chromatic notation have something to work with (apart from pen and paper which is also good) without digging to computer stuff...

 

And yea, the headless stems are for tied notes. It is just for reducing the clutter. Sometimes in music for guitar or harp (and lyre), the ties leading to "nowhere" are being used to indicate to let the string ring instead of wirting multiple tied notes. So basically the stems are just there to make the durations and the rhythm clear. I saw some scores where the rests were used instead but I find it very confusing since the rest should indicate a silence. Therefore I use just stems and damp the string when I see a rest.

Cheers,

Jan

[Paul Morris]

On Aug 19, 2013, at 5:30 PM, Jan Braunstein <ja...@post.cz> wrote:

So perhaps creating (even a basic) graphical editor for Lilypond and chromatic notation would be a way to go rather than modifying Musescore.

Perhaps, at least in the short term.  Ultimately I think modifying MuseScore would be the best solution.

Some of the LilyPond folks are working on a basic graphic editor called Shikker's list that can run in a browser.  It's still in development, but eventually it might be good enough?

http://lilypond.org/schikkers-list/

http://lilypond.org/schikkers

The score was created with older version of Finale (using a custom percussion layout). It works best from what I have tried so far but it also means solving a lot of problems and most of the solutions are still just workarounds. Also in the recent version of Finale, everything works a bit differently, particularly the staff styles so it does not work so well anymore. Maybe we could try contacting the guys from Makemusic and ask them whether they can help. But I would not bet on that.

That's too bad they've made it more difficult...  I won't hold my breath waiting for their response either.

I stopped using Musescore since it was just too much effort to create even simple scores. There are a few things though, that would not require a lot of changes in the code and that would already make it usable. I remember we both posted some suggestions in their forum but there was not much response. Maybe someone might give it a shot again :)

 

I think that we still need a better solution of this so the musicians willing to use chromatic notation have something to work with (apart from pen and paper which is also good) without digging to computer stuff...

Agreed.  LilyPond works (and works right now) to let us create scores that casual or curious users can use or try, but if they want to do their own editing, most will want something more user-friendly.

And yea, the headless stems are for tied notes. It is just for reducing the clutter. Sometimes in music for guitar or harp (and lyre), the ties leading to "nowhere" are being used to indicate to let the string ring instead of wirting multiple tied notes. So basically the stems are just there to make the durations and the rhythm clear. I saw some scores where the rests were used instead but I find it very confusing since the rest should indicate a silence. Therefore I use just stems and damp the string when I see a rest.

Ah, that makes sense.  There might be a way to automatically do that with LilyPond.  Worst case you would have to manually apply an override to each tied note to make the note head disappear.

Cheers,

-Paul

[Jan Braunstein]

On Monday, August 19, 2013 11:30:51 PM UTC+2, Jan Braunstein wrote:

 

So perhaps creating (even a basic) graphical editor for Lilypond and chromatic notation would be a way to go rather than modifying Musescore.

 

 

Schikkers-list (http://lilypond.org/schikkers-list/) looks promissing in that respect. But will it be able to work with alternative notations?

I give the Lilypond another try, I guess. I might need some assistance though... For now I just installed it along with Frescobaldi and I'll see how it goes.

 

[Paul Morris]

On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:31 PM, Jan Braunstein <ja...@post.cz> wrote:

Schikkers-list (http://lilypond.org/schikkers-list/) looks promissing in that respect. But will it be able to work with alternative notations?

Good question.  It uses LilyPond for rendering so I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adapted for use with alternative systems.  It might be pretty straightforward, or on the other hand, maybe not... the devil is in the details.

I give the Lilypond another try, I guess. I might need some assistance though... For now I just installed it along with Frescobaldi and I'll see how it goes.

I hope it goes well!  Let me know if you have any questions, especially with the alternative notation parts, since I'm the resident expert on that.  The LilyPond user list is also a very helpful group.

Cheers,

-Paul

[Joseph Austin]

The "article" link in the schikkers-list link is broken; try this one:

http://news.lilynet.net/?The-LilyPond-Report-22

and you must view w. Firefox or Opera to see animation

I've been working on a program to convert a spreadsheet form of piano-roll into whatever.

It currently creates plain text or an html webpage, but could be modified to create musicXml.

But it's not interactive.

What I'm looking for in a GUI is something like a piano-roll grid, 

with one axis pitch and the other time (linear proportional)

where I can touch/click "pitch at count" for each note-onset and let the computer do the rest of the duration computation.  

It seems this is similar to the concept of Jan's lyre notation.

This is essentially how I do my piano-roll spreadsheet, but I have to type a symbol in the specified position.  I can do a limited amount of "drag" for corrections, but depending on the spreadsheet program (Excel or Numbers) I have some difficulty dragging notes separate from the staff.

I'll have to take a closer look at Lilypond.  I've put my toe in the "pond" a couple time but never stayed long enough to get much accomplished.

Joe Austin

DrTechDaddy.com

[Joseph Austin]

Jan,

How is the alt MuseScore coming along?

I'm interested in alternative notation and do have programming experience in MS C++,

but I doubt my compiler is current.  

ï'm unaffiliated with any license holder institution so I would need to use the "free" version if there still is one.

I really liked the original Cakewalk as a MIDI editor, but it has evolved in a different direction.

What I have in mind is something like a spreadsheet for music,

with one axis (preferably horizontal) for pitch and the other (preferably vertical) for time.

I note that MuseScore has a "piano roll" editor but with limited capabilities.

But perhaps it could be used as a starting point for creating a chromatic representation of a score.

I'm also fond of shape-notes, that is, a different notehead symbol for each of the twelve chromatic scale notes.

You can see my earlier efforts on alt notation at my website, DrTechDaddy.com.

These are attempts to create a notation with text tools.

Joe Austin

On May 23, 2013, at 12:20 PM, jbrun...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello fellow dreamers!

If anyone here wants to actually implement a Simplified Music scheme, I'm looking for collaborators on a project I'm doing.  I intend to modify the Musescore software http://musescore.org/ so that the user may easily experiment with another notation scheme.  Musescore is free under the GNU license, and its source code is documented and maintained by an active community.  

This won't be a mere plugin.  Plugins and other "surface level hacks" are slow, need constant resetting, and will never get us where we want to go.  A real project will require deep changes to the source code.  This won't be simple, but imagine the possibilities once its realized!  We could finally have a free and adaptable piece of software for our notation ideas.  We could convert and test thousands of compositions!

Obviously, there are details and logistics to hammer out.  So, if there is anyone else here with programming experience in C/C++, please let me know.  I would be happy to schedule real time discussions via Skype or Google hangout.

Thank you.

[Thomas Nguyen]

I invite you to visit my 3JCN music notation http://www.3jcn.com

I volunteer to help you with Simplifire or 3jcn

[Jan Braunstein]

Hi Joe,

I am not aware of any ongoing development of alternative Musescore. It would be nice to know if someone has taken the initiative. It looked like jbrundisium@gmail was about to get things moving...

Having custom version of Musecscore would be certainly the best option for all of us dealing with chromatic notation. Have you looked at the Musescore code? Perhaps even some minor changes would make a difference... As for compiling etc. they have all the info here: http://musescore.org/en/developers-handbook 

The piano-roll editor is indeed a chromatic representation of a score but I believe that transforming it to a nice looking score would be almost like writing the software from scratch. I think that in Musescore it is more something like an add-on and the core of the software is really the notation itself. However there must be some open source piano-roll editors out there so if you think of using that as a starting point, perhaps something like this: http://jdmcox.com/ (Piano Roll Composer) might work for you better.

All the best and happy New Year!

Jan

[jbrun...@gmail.com]

I wanted to let everyone know that I'm still active on this project.  I've begun familiarizing myself with the MuseScore code, and over this Spring and Summer I plan to devote time to an alternative notation extension.  I'll be a senior Comp Sci Major, and I'm considering making it my senior project.  This is also not the only work I plan on doing for MuseScore.  I've always wanted to get involved with open source and MuseScore seems like a great place to start.

I apologize for leaving everyone in the dark.  I've had a very involved semester, and this isn't my regular email account.  I'll try to check in from time to time.  Let me know about any ideas suggestions.  Once some progress is made on the Alt-note extension, I'll try to branch it off so that others can work with me.  Beware though, it might be a month or two before that point comes.

Thanks and good luck to everyone.

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Hi, jbrundisium
I am looking forward to see what you are going to do on this subject.
I myself was trying to learn some programming (by editing the code of
Musescore) but I am very lame on that kind of "developer". I couldn't
understand what to do.

I have a Notation System called Plain Notation System (the one on the
MNP Wiki page is obsolete and just for testing the Wiki page). The
real PNS (Plain Notation System) is about to be published... soon I
hope. It is an alternative plsu it is more of a totally new concept. I
can hardly imagine how such a notation system could be implemented
into program code!?

Just to make the things clear:
1. In PNS there are no lines, no staff... there are just rows of
symbols (note-heads)
2. In PNS there are 12 unique note-head symbols (closed simple
geometric shapes) for the 12 notes
3. the rows represent the "octaves" (in PNS those "octaves" are called
'renovas') in which the symbols are to be placed according to their
intended pich
4. chords and harmonies are vertically stocked note-heads with a
dashed line on either (or both) sides to hold them as a chord chunk
5. duration of the notes are represented by the tales with some new
consideration to minimize the tale abundance

If you are interested in taking this concept under your wing as a
software developer, I am willing to give you all the design concept in
a day or two. I am working on it as a part of my Treatise on
Pentatonics.

-- Ivaylo

--
-- van Loyden
Treatise On Pentatonics

[Joseph Austin]

Ivaylo,
Had you considered using a spreadsheet or similar table-generating software?
I've had some success representing music as text,
and it seems your system is close to being text-based.

If you do decide to try a text-based approach, I could lend you a hand.

You might want to review my experiments at DrTechDaddy.com, blog MUSIC

Joe Austin

[Joseph Austin]

jbrundisium,

I'm curious why you chose MuseScore vs. Lilypond.

Joe Austin

[Paul Morris]

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:43:46 PM UTC-5, jbrun...@gmail.com wrote:

I wanted to let everyone know that I'm still active on this project.  I've begun familiarizing myself with the MuseScore code, and over this Spring and Summer I plan to devote time to an alternative notation extension.  I'll be a senior Comp Sci Major, and I'm considering making it my senior project.  

Thanks for the update.  Glad to hear you're still working on this.  Do keep us posted on your progress.

Cheers,

-Paul

[jbrun...@gmail.com]

I'll admit I don't know about Lilypond much compared to MuseScore, but also I must confess:

Playback is VERY important in my mind.

If I'm going to experiment with new notation systems, I want to get a sense of how those visual relationships feel when translated to sound.

[jbrun...@gmail.com]

Also, my general idea is to creative a "Notation Editor" -- not a single, hardcoded notation.  I want to create an interface for mixing and matching all kinds of new notation ideas.

However, there's a major tradeoff between flexible use and complexity of programming (not to mention the time to do it).  The more freedom we want for whacky, outside-the-box ideas, the deeper a "cut" I would have to make into MuseScore.  On one extreme, if all our alt-notation ideas use the traditional five-line staff and traditional noteheads, then it's just a matter of re-mapping the positions of the notes.  In other words, the existing layout algorithm would just have to become more editable.  Relatively simple.  On the other extreme, if we want to allow someone to create smiley faces acting out sign-language on checker boards, then not only the layout algorithm, but the entire structure of organizing notes would have to be modifiable.  Very hard.

[Paul Morris]

MuseScore does currently offer more for playback.  

Frescobaldi does provide easy midi playback when working with LilyPond, but it's fairly basic.  You just get the audio along with the visual score. There's no dynamic visual indicator moving across the staff as the notes play and no way to start the audio at a particular point you select in the visual score.  They are working on eventually providing these kinds of things.

http://www.frescobaldi.org/

-Paul

[Paul Morris]

Hi Alan,

I assume you've seen MuseScore's Google Summer of Code projects? (deadline for submissions is March 21):

http://musescore.org/en/node/24835#comment-97141

http://musescore.org/en/developers-handbook/google-summer-code/ideas-2014

See especially the following one, which would be in the area of alternative notation styles (if not chromatic systems per se).  A great way to learn that part of the code.

Alternate notation styles for specified ranges

MuseScore currently provides a plugin to convert an existing passage into slash notation, but this approach is limited in a number of ways. MuseScore also allows you to specific the transposition for a staff, or to make a staff invisible, or specify the number of staff lines, but these properties are global for the staff throughout the score.

What is desired is to be able to select a region and then specify an alternate notation style for that region - slash notation, a different transposition, different number of staff lines, etc. This involves both defining a UI and mechanism for specifying what you want, as well as actually implementing native support for slash notation and perhaps other notation styles.

Difficulty: Easy to Medium
Skills: C++/Qt
Possible mentor: Marc Sabatella

Cheers,

-Paul

[adXok]

Hi, jbrundisium!
I sent you the Plain Notation System explanation (in short but good visual representation) by using some examples.

You can see it here → Plain Notation System (PNS)
You can download it as a .pdf file from here → Plain Notation System (.pdf file)

Please do not hesitate to ask me any questions regarding the PNS if such arises. I hope one day see it as an application. I am ready to make a true type or open type font of the symbols in the future or whatever the need will be so the implementation in a software to be more easy I suppose. The concept is very new and flexible. You do not need lines, accidentals nor clefs. It takes almost 30% to 50% less space (or paper) while at the same time is more meaningful once the symbols for the notes are memorized.

[crgls...@gmail.com]

You should have a look at MusiScript (musiscript (dot com). With the volume of pieces they have in their alternative notation, they must have some sort of editor.