My analysis on improving music notation and a proposal of alternative notation ^_^

[張書瀚（Zhang）]

1. Why new music notation?

In my opinion, traditional music notation(   like  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_(music)   ) has three major defects:

a. Learners have to remember which line, which space is what. "Every Good Boy Dose Fine, FACE" helps, but it is still not straightforward. 

    Why treble staff and  bass stave are different? Why C and [an octave higher C] has no straightforward relationships?

    I am citizen of China, and I learn JianPu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbered_musical_notation) in my young age. It is quit disgusting for me to remember the lines and spaces. *_*

b. The 12 notes in an octave doesn't have their own place, that results in the explosion of [#]s and [b]s which make the staff difficult to read.

c. Intervals are not consistent.

2. Why so many (or most) musicians just don't care?

 

a. Traditional music notation is quit good looking. 

 

b. Traditional music notation is capable of conveying the information, although in a unfriendly way.

 

c. No matter how unfriendly a notation is, if you spend 5-8 hours a day on tackling it for many years, you can be proficient and feel comfortable at last.

d. There are many classic musics written in traditional notation. As a musician, the ability to read them is required.

3. How to improve?

"OK, just give every note its own place".

 

But how? If asked, most people would finally come up with exactly the same solution as the one in the home page of [http://musicnotation.org/]

 

There is no doubt it is the most consistent type of notation, but it has one big worry: what if the range of music become wide? The staff becomes fat and the unreadable.

So here is my proposal:

Pretty simple. Idea of  placing C and #C in the same line first appears in Equation notation system (http://musicnotation.org/wiki/Equiton_by_Rodney_Fawcett)

 

The line of C and #C are bold in order to to give a 'reference'. all other notes can be easily distinguished by referencing the C lines. 

If you can remember one octave, you're OK to distinguish the all others. Every octave has reference C lines.

 

The picture above uses six lines, but surely it can be five lines or four lines.

All other symbols and regulations are the same as the traditional notation, except the half note.

 

This can be solved in many ways but I think reverse the tail of eighth notes is the most elegant solution. 

 

Tail in one direction means halve the time, then in other direction means to double the time, quit straightforward, isn't it? ^_^ 

Compared with the notation in the Homepage of MNP, this notation saves the space and remains very clear.

 

The Intervals are not as consistent as the MNP Homepage one. But considering that the absolute pitch is very clear and there're only two patterns(already much better than the traditional), I think it's no problem.

 

 

I am pretty sure this notation proposal can be used in wherever the traditional notation are used, 

but it might look especially clear with 6+6 keyboard ( or Balanced keyboard, symmetric keyboard, uniform keyboard ) .

Here are some interesting links about 6+6 keyboard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGUD58gp6Fk

http://www.balanced-keyboard.com/

http://www.uniformkeyboardsystem.com/

http://squeezehead.com/uniform-keyboard/

So guys, what do you think about this proposal? ^_^

[Peter Jackson]

Hi Zhang, Have you tried the Klavarskribo notation? It was invented in 1931. I have used it for 50 years; please see www.klavarmusic.org  It is becoming very popular in China. You can tallk to Diano Fu about it if you like. Best wishes

Peter

Director

Klavar Music Foundation of Great Britain

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[張書瀚（Zhang）]

Hi Peter!

Thank you for you reply.

Klavarskribo notation is a great invention. I have already read some material about it before. It works perfect with current music keyboard.

But have you think about that the current music keyboard layout itself isn't good enough? OK, maybe I look a little too rebelling ^_^, but please think a little more about it.

I believe the intervals and scales in current music keyboard are not consistent, transposition is much harder than it has to be.

In the 6+6 keyboard, you need only learn 2 fingering( starting from white, starting from black ) and then you can transpose to whatever you want. The intervals and scales also have only 2 pattern.

There are some links about 6+6 keyboard and other symmetric/balanced keyboard in my original post.

Some people are using it now, not many, but I believe when customize service become cheaper someday in music keyboard industry, there will be more.

To tell the truth,  I am very curious why the music keyboard is designed to be 7+5 while actually every competent keyboard player have to be familiar with other 11 majors.

So in a word, if I am to design a new notation, I won't make it closely tied to the current 7+5 music keyboard.

張書瀚   (Zhang ShuHan)

[書瀚張]

BTW, I am looking forward to your replay~! ^_^ 

I will be very happy if you say something about 6+6 keyboard or the notation.

2011/11/4 張書瀚（Zhang） <zrq...@gmail.com>

[dominique.waller]

Hi Zhang,

 

I'd like to know more about your experience with the jianpu. We know very little about it in the West. What are the pros and cons of the jianpu in your opinion ? What are the things you like the best about it ? And the things you dislike the most ?

    I think this notation is commonly used in China for simple melodies like folklore, songs for children, traditionnal and popular music. 

    Have you seen examples where the notation went beyond the sixteenth note ?  I another words, have you seen it applied to classical music or jazz ?  Or to choirs (polyphony) ?  

 

    Thank you in advance .

 

Dominique (France)

[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique!

-----------------------

I'd like to say something about history of Numbered notation:

Check this site[http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory1.htm], search for 'Jean Jacques Souhaitty'. Jianpu is basically invented by the French people ^_^.

The route is French->Japan->China.

Jianpu shares many common ideas with China traditional gongche notation, most importantly, using symbols(1234567) instead of position(space, line) to distinguish the different notes in an octave, and Jianpu became very popular in China.

-----------------------

1. Jianpu is much much much clearer and easy(easy to learn, easy to remember, easy to teach) than [traditional notation] for simple melodies like folklore, songs for children,and popular music. Human voice is the best 'instrument' forever, many people love singing as their hobby. Even if this one is the only advantage of Jianpu, I think it will always be popular in China.

2. [notation went beyond the sixteenth note]: just add one more line under the sixteenth note, it becomes 32nd note.

3. [choirs (polyphony)]: In China, most non-professional choirs, like student choirs use Jianpu. I guess professional choirs use traditional notation.

4. [applied to classical music or jazz]: Few people tried. I can download Jianpu version of Hanon from Internet. Some teacher use Jianpu to teach amateur. But all of these are rare phenomenon. 

    Any formal high-level music textbook in China use traditional notation to introduce music theory. 99.99999999% of Piano Staff published are in traditional notation. 

   I think this is reasonable.

   I do some experiments, the result turns out that for complex piano music, Jianpu is neither harder nor easier than traditional notation. Jianpu uses only seven symbols to represent 12 notes in an octave, too. 

   In singing music, Jianpu uses movable-do system(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge search movable do), using 1=G to mark G major. 

   In keyboard music, movable-do system is not good because it is hard to locate the key. If use fixed do system, Jianpu needs as many [#, b]s as traditional notation.

5. I thought about promoting a variation of Jianpu to make staff easier to read. The idea is simple. In Jianpu C major staff, 1234567=CDEFGAB, we can add 5 more symbols, for example 123456789αβγ=C,#C,D,#D,E,F,#F,G,#G,A,#A,B.

   Then no # or b is needed. All the remaining rules are same as Jianpu. It's good, better than the traditional notation. But I don't think this system is easier than the one I said in the original post.

   The one in the original post looks more beautiful and more alike to traditional notation.

[dominique.waller]

Hi Zhang,

I knew about the French origin of the jianpu. I thought you would have mentionned Jean-Jacques Rousseau instead of Souhaitty.

Thank you very much for your answering thoroughly.

Dominique

----- Original Message -----

From: 書瀚張

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

--

[Bob Stuckey]

Hi All

Just like to mention i this context that the French notion of using 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 to represent the major scale has another offshoot in Nashville Notation where chord symbol conventions are added to the numbers to create triads. This  result is similar to Roman numerals, that is placing a triad within a key.

Here as an example is the harmony of Bachs Air on a G string. The number to the right of the slash is a scale degree played in the bass

1  1/7 6m 1/5 4 2/#4 5 5/4 

3m7b5   3m7b5 /2   6/#1  6  2m  2m /1   5/7  5  

1   1/7  6m 2/#4 2  5  6m/1  2sus   2   5

While similar to Roman Numerals it has particular differences. Nashville is always based on the major scale. If you want the minor use 6m as your tonic or inflect the major. So the primary triads it the minor might be:

 6m 2m 37 6m

 or

 1m 4m 57 1m

I find Nashville more elegant than Roman numerals which are cumbersome and ambiguous, but all systems have pros and cons.

Sometimes the numerals are used to indicate melody but mostly it is used for chords.

Bob

[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique, 

   Well, I am not very sure but every Jianpu book in China says Souhaitty is the first one. @_@ OK, that not so important anyway, they are all French people ^_^

Can you say something about the 6+6 keyboard and the notation I said in the original post? What are the pros and cons of them in your opinion ? Thanks in advance!

張書瀚(Zhang ShuHan)

2011/11/6 dominique.waller <dominiqu...@wanadoo.fr>

[dominique.waller]

Hi Zhang,

You are right to say that Souhaitty came before. But without the books of Rousseau and his followers (among them Emile Chevé), I think this number notation wouldn’t have reached China, unless Chinese people had reinvented it by themselves, inspired by their own gongche notation.

            All those systems, Souhaitty, Rousseau, Chevé, where diatonic systems; they were built in reaction against the equal temperament, they were made for vocal music primarily, not for instruments, even if they were adapted to them later. And originally, they were conceived in the idea of the movable do, a relative approach.

            For all these reasons, I prefer the chromatic jianpu you had thought of. Myself, I advocate for an absolute notation taking advantage of the equal temperament and conceived for singing as well as playing, with a numeric nomenclature going from 0 to 11. And I think this type of notation takes place in the course of a general evolution in history. For more details, see the newly updated tutorial on numerical notation on our MNP website.

            About the 6+6 keyboard, I perfectly agree with you.

            About your proposal, I’m sorry to say that it’s not new. According to Gardner Read, it was first proposed by Johannes Rohleder in 1792, and exactly for the same reasons than you: to limit the vertical expansion of the chromatic octave on the staff (which is too fat in its primary form), and to fit the system with the newly invented chromatic keyboard with black and white keys. As not everyone possesses a 6+6 keyboard at home with black and white keys, another version of this staff was invented fifty years later after the colors of the piano keyboard.

            I was interested by your remark that your proposal is more beautiful than a numeric notation. I see what you mean, and I wouldn’t say the contrary. I just think that the visual beauty of a notation may not be a definitive criterion. There are other, more rational criteria. The use of numbers allows having a common language for notes, intervals and chords that can be used on different type of staves, on chord diagrams, in tablatures and in the written text itself for music theory and commentary. For all these reasons, it is preferable to me.

Cheers! Dominique

[dominique.waller]

Thank you, Bob. I had heard about the Nashville notation, but didn't know what it consisted in. Dominique

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Stuckey

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique, 

    [see the newly updated tutorial on numerical notation on our MNP website] Did you mean this one [http://musicnotation.org/tutorials/numericalnotationsystems.html] ? 

But it isn't the full definition. Can you give me a link to the full definition of your new numbered notation? I am interested, and I want to know more about your numbered notation.

For the symbol part, the reasons why I prefer 123456789αβγ are:

1:  0 is often used as rest in Jianpu.

2: In Computer Science, the hexadecimal uses 0123456789ABCDEF to represent zero to fifteen. I think the new system might as well not to conflict with the current CDEFGAB. αβγ is quite similar to ABC in Greek Letter. Most math textbook of China uses Greek letter quite frequently, I don't know whether it is the case in other countries.

BTW, it would be more convincing to the general public if your can transcribe some hard section of classic music with complex chords into your notation, and then attach the comparison picture in the definition paper.

[your proposal is more beautiful than a numeric notation]: Maybe the biggest reason is minimal change compared with the traditional notation.

I think it would be easier to attract new user if the change is not big while the convenience is not small. 

Thank you for telling me the Gardner Read's book. I'll read it.

Looking forward to your reply!~ ^_^

[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique, 

   I've tried but I'm afraid I have no way to get Gardner Read's <<Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms>> book in China. 

I'm very interested in the part about [Johannes Rohleder in 1792], can you upload the picture of this part? Thanks in advance.

[Michael Johnston]

> I've tried but I'm afraid I have no way to get Gardner Read's
> <<Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms>> book in China.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031325446X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0800854535&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=12AKCMNQKVVB5V6V6YJW

If you have access to Amazon (even in Hong Kong) and can get a few
friends to buy a copy and have it sent, you might be able to rationalize
the $125 price.

Here it is on Baidu:
http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=Source+Book+of+Proposed+Music+Notation+Reforms&rsv_bp=0&rsv_spt=3&n=2&inputT=1248

I'm not certain, but I believe that Beijing Conservatory has a copy in
the library.

Cheers!
Michael
--
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704-567-1066 ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **
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[John Keller]

Hi Zhang,

 

Have you studied all the proposed notations on our website? In particular have you looked at Express Stave and all the transcribed piano music on my Wiki page?

 

John K

[書瀚張]

Hi John,

   I've seen your Express Stave before ^_^. I've seen the YouTube video and the page in MNP website.

   Again, you can check what I said to Mr. Peter who is promoting Klavarskribo notation. I believe the notation system should not be closed tied with the current 7+5 piano keyboard. While learning the Express Stave/Klavarskribo notation, one is supposed to associate the notes in the staff with the 7+5 keyboard frequently until the conditioned reflex is built. All these meanful and expressive symbols become meaningless for janko keyboard(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard), Bayan keyboard(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan_(accordion)),  and other alternative keyboard layout. Leaving out this reason, I think Express Stave is quite good.

   In my opinion, most graphic notation is built upon the plain direct chromatic notation in MNP homepage, trying to make the direct chromatic notation more compact. In my proposal( first proposed by Johannes Rohleder in 1792 ), the idea is just halve the vertical size of the plain chromatic notation mathematically, combine two neighboring notes to the same position and mark them with different color(black, white), and then give a reference C line to make position remembering easier. I have to admit that for loyal 7+5 keyboard users, compress the staff and color the note according to the 7+5 keyboard might be more intuitive. But I still feel the notation system should be more independent.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/7 John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au>

[dominique.waller]

Hi Zhang,

This is a link to our website where I justify my choice of two symbols for ten and eleven. http://musicnotation.org/w/images/2/21/Waller_single_digit_symbols.pdf

Maybe you’ve read it already, as it is mentioned in the tutorial.

            There’s no presentation of my system elsewhere on the site and I don’t have a personal website either. One of the reasons is that it has changed through the years. The other is that I’m preparing a book in French that won’t be published before several years where I discuss all the aspects of it. I hope it will be translated in English thereafter so you can read it…

            Nevertheless, there’s an article I had sent to the MNMA in 2005, where I sum up the basis of my system. See attached file.

            And there are numerous discussions (sometimes heated), especially in 2010, on the subject of numerical notations in general and mine in particular that you can find by searching inside the archive of the MNP site. Use this link: http://groups.google.com/group/musicnotation

            You’re right to say that it must be tested on difficult musical parts. That’s what I’m experimenting on the keyboard, the guitar and later the drums.

[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique, 

   It doesn't matter whether the book is translated or not, because:

1.  At most one page of definition 

2. A mapping table between traditional notation and your notation

3. An comparison example, i.e, a difficult section of classic music with complex chords in your notation and traditional notation.

4. For people dislike reading, A tutorial video in YouTube.

   These would be very very enough materials to recognize an elegant notation system.

For me, 123 is enough. And these above do not need as much translation as a book  ^_^. 

About 10, 11: 

Before writing last post to you, I had already read your paper about 10 and 11. I won't say your proposal is bad. 

But being a student of computer science, I am familiar with the hexadecimal. 

I don't know how many people know it, but for anyone knows hexadecimal, A/a=10, B/b=11 is quite natural. And I humbly guess that the resembling α,β might also be quite natural.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/7 dominique.waller <dominiqu...@wanadoo.fr>

[dominique.waller]

Zhang,

 

Have you read the attached file I sent to you ?  Theres' a lot of definition in it.

Read it first and then I'll give you more.  Dominique

[Paul Morris]

Hello  張書瀚（Zhang),

I think your proposal is a good one, and shares a lot with my own approach with TwinNote.  I particularly agree about how the increased distance between notes on most chromatic staves could potentially make reading more difficult for larger intervals and music with a large pitch range, when compared with traditional notation.  Here's an example from the influences page on the TwinNote site:   ( http://twinnote.org/learn/influences/ )

 


The main reservation I have about your proposal is one you mention yourself -- that your system, like Equiton where two notes also share the same line or space, is not as consistent for interval appearance.  Here's the same example in Equiton:

 

You can see the two different sizes of 5ths, while the 6ths have only one size.  This is why TwinNote uses two different triangle note shapes (borrowing this triangle approach from Reed's Twinline).   I think this works better for identifying intervals, while still providing the vertically-compact staff.  Here is the same example in TwinNote:

 


One other point on your proposal is that I think using a single flag that goes one way or the other to differentiate between half notes and 8th notes could be confusing.  This was Reed's approach with Twinline as well, but I prefer having a double stem for half notes and leaving flags to 8th notes, 16th notes, etc.

I'd be glad to help you create a page for your system on the MNP wiki.  Just let me know if you're interested in that.  http://musicnotation.org/wiki/

Cheers,
Paul M

PS. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on TwinNote as well.  http://twinnote.org
 



張書瀚（Zhang） wrote:

[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique, 

   I have read it ^_^, here are my thoughts:

1. I think that document talks about: why numbers, potential benefits(Simplify the chord, interval, singing), some the experience of author.

2. I didn't find a lot of definition in it, such as how you're going to mark half note, quarter notes, fingering, transpose, rest, staccato, Treble Clef, Bass Clef..... and how good the system works when transcribing dazzling music paragraph. The picture at the end of the doc has many undefined (in your doc) mystery symbols to me (T-T) .

3. There's an interesting coincidence in the document. 'Major third ' translated in our language is '大三度', which is 'Big three degree'. 7° is read as '七度' which is 'seven degree'. In some informal circumstance, I write ‘大3°’ or '大三' for short of '大三度(Major third )' ^_^.

4. Looking forward to see your: [3. mapping table between traditional notation and your notation] and [4. comparison example]. 

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

[書瀚張]

Hello Paul, 

  Thank you very much for your reply. ^_^

  About the [two notes share the same line or space ---> two pattern of same interval] problem, for the time being I think it is in inevitable for vertically compact graphic chromatic notation.

  In TwinNote, G and #G share the same line, F and #F share the same space, etc. So it's not difficult to enumerate inconsistent examples.  Here is one:

  

  In my proposal, the position sharing rule is [white first and then black]; In TwinNote, [black first and white next]. 'Consistent' means not only the equivalents should look similar, but also inequivalents look different. The inconsistent problems are still there, just in different shape. I am not sure which one of the two inconsistency is better temporarily.

  So basically the notation I proposed is an identical one as yours, just looking more like the traditional notation. ^_^

  I personally feel the traditional notation visually very beautiful. I think the inventors of traditional notation may not be mathematics or rigorous theorist, but they were definitely very good at design beautiful symbols and marks. So I would prefer maintaining the old look as much as possible.  In China, many calligraphy fans enjoy learning to write in 小篆（Small Seal Script http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Seal_Script）, a quite different ancient way to write our language dating back to about 2300 years ago only because it looks beautiful and elegant：

  About the half note, it's another personal taste problem ^_^. It is difficult to cater for all tastes, we don't have to change each other.

[書瀚張]

Hello Paul, 

   I forgot the wiki part. I want to check it more thoroughly before trying to put it on MNP wiki ^_^. 

I think I'll add it by myself (won't exceed one page), thank you for your kindness. I'll ask for your help if I encounter some problems.

張書瀚(Zhang ShuHan)

在 2011年11月7日 下午11:57，Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com>写道：

[Michael Johnston]

> I forgot the wiki part. I want to check it more thoroughly before

> trying to put it on MNP wiki.

Hi, Zhang. You have made me very happy by participating from China. Tom
Reed, one of the energetic souls behind MNMA and who has chosen not to
participate here online preferring to work on his own piano method for
young people, would be very pleased also.

I was hoping to meet and hear from musicians and inventors from China
but this was always prevented. (See
http://musicnotation.org/mnma/index.html for a list of MNMA members from
China.) As late as the MNMA convention in the Philippines, the Chinese
were denied visas to travel to Sibu City to participate. Then, the
translation hindered things. Now, you can use UTF-8 to communicate in
English with adjacent Chinese characters and the online translation
facilities can solve anything that needs solving in every language.
Also, English language skills have greatly increased in the larger
cities and schools.

Thank you very much for your participation and for expressing your views
and ideas. I wish we could have members interested in notation from all
areas of the world.

[書瀚張]

Hi Michael, 

  Thank you ^_^, I am happy, too.

2011/11/8 Michael Johnston <mic...@michaelsmusicservice.com>

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[Enrique Prieto]

Hi Zhang,

From time to time I reconsider the importance of vertical writing as
great part of the world is used to it and “might” have some appeal for
keyboard player, also synchronization with lyrics in those cultures
should be better, I allow for that option as part of the IMN (is not
supported yet in the application but I turn the tablet PC) but it does
not work for me as I am so used to horizontal reading.

I wonder how important is that issue for you or other Chinese people
and how much effort is required to cope with horizontal writing.

Regards
Enrique Prieto.

[dominique.waller]

Hi Zhang,

            1. Yes!

           

             2. There is a lot of definition in it, but maybe you read it too fast. There’s a paragraph that explains how rhythms should be written and understood, and how chords are written and coded. But it’s not very straightforward, it’s true.

 

            4. You want short information, here it comes

 

Notes : chromatic scale of twelve numbers from 0 to 11:

 

            C = 0 ; C# =1 ; D = 2 ;  Eb = 3 ; E = 4 ; F = 5 ; F# = 6 ;

            G = 7 ;  G# = 8 ; A = 9 ; Bb = 10 ; B = 11 (with special symbols for 10 and 11)

 

Intervals : measured by half-tones notated °

 

Fingers : the five vowels a e i o u  (from thumb to little finger) written in handwriting characters.

 

Time notation : see the table in the attached file. You can see that your half note have something in common with mine.

 

Rests : the same symbols but without cipher attached.

 

Comparison example: see attached file.

            The space between each line represents an octave. All the notes that belong to the same octave are written horizontally. That way, four octaves can be represented (if you include the space below the lower line and the space above the upper line). The star indicates the central octave that contains A = 440 Hz.

            The notes of a chord that belong to the same octave are written horizontally, the others vertically. When a group of notes have different duration, a comma is added to discriminate which note is attached to which time symbol.

            3. In the vocabulary of music, there’s always been some confusion between points and distances. For example in Latin, tonus means the tension of the string, and by metonymy the pitch produced by that string. Later on, tonus gave ‘tone’ and ‘half-tone’ which measures intervals between pitches.

            There’s the same ambiguity with the word degree. Originally, the degree is a level, like the level of a temperature. But as this level is measured by degrees, the word degree also means a quantity, the distance between two temperatures in this example.

            In the major scale, there are seven steps, which are seven levels, but this word ‘step’ also came to mean an interval, like in the word ‘half-step’.

            To dissipate this ambiguity, I call ‘degrees’ the intervals (measured in degrees notated ° and written in Arabic numerals) and ‘steps’ the diatonic levels (notated with Roman numeral).  In your example, a major third is originally the third note of the major scale, thus step III, and it came to indicate an interval of 4° that separates that third note from the tonic.

Cheers ! Dominique

           

[書瀚張]

Hi Enrique, 

  

  Theoretically China characters can be written in many orders, top to bottom, right to left, left to right, without obvious bad effect.

  Every character is ‘方塊字’（square-alike).

  It's like arranging different equal-size squares, and most China words contains 2 or 3 squares(In ancient language, one China character = one English word). 

  So it doesn't matter.

  

  Check here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_characters, especially the pictures ^_^.

  In most of these pictures, the characters are written vertically from top to bottom, the 'vertical lines' are ordered from right to left.

  This kind of layout is massively used from the beginning of China civilization to recent 60 years, and we sill use them in Art work, Traditional events.

  The biggest reason for this layout is: in ancient time before paper was invented, we use bamboo slips to write, like this one(no punctuation ^_^):

  

  In fact, sometimes we not only write from top to bottom and from left to right, we also to write from right to left ^_^.

  See the biggest 4 characters in the following picture, which means honesty, greatness, decent like brightness:

  Gradually the layout of most documents in China are set from left to right only for one reason:

  If not, it would be a pain in the ass (T-T) if you want to insert some foreign language/marks(including math formula) between the text. 

  Nevertheless, books purely about China, especially our cultural, are often set vertically top to bottom.

  I write in top-down pattern when writing calligraphy(almost all people learning China calligraphy will) and diary(my personal choice).

  I never feel uncomfortable^_^.

  I did see some people complains that in top-down layout they don't feel as comfortable as the left-right layout. Well, I guess it's just complaint.

  For Latin character-based language or other has chars like 'l', I don't think it's a good choice. 

  For example, word [if, listing, synchronization, ing], if written horizontally, it's compact and space-saving, 

  but become to fat if written vertically.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/8 Enrique Prieto <mtall...@gmail.com>

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[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique, 

   There's one problem, the tricky part you picked isn't tricky at all. I mentioned that I tried to transcribe some dazzling classic music in Jianpu before. 

I asked many people what music staff look visually complex. Here are some parts I suggest:

1. [1]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai

[2]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai

[3]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt

[4]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt

I chose REMINISCENCES DE NORMA as the test material at that time.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/9 dominique.waller <dominiqu...@wanadoo.fr>

[dominique.waller]

Hi Zhang,

            The example I sent you is tricky enough for you to understand how my system works. I don’t feel you took much time to analyze it. Every time I respond to you, you say it’s not enough.

            I absolutely could transcribe any of those extreme examples. It’s just that it would take hours of hard work for me. And all this for what? It’s clear enough you wouldn’t change your mind at the end anyway.

[Doug Keislar]

Hi Zhang,

Welcome to the forum!  It's great to have the participation of someone from China. As Michael mentioned, Tom Reed (the founder of the Music Notation Modernization Association, the predecessor of the Music Notation Project) was very interested in China.  He named one of his notation systems (later abandoned for Twinline) after Ling Lun, the legendary founder of music in ancient China.  Apparently the legend says that Ling Lun heard a male and a female bird, each singing the notes of a different whole-tone scale, interlocked so as to form the cycle of fifths.  Tom even published some of the early issues of his Musical Six-Six Newsletter with parts of the material translated into Chinese.  (He also published portions of it in Esperanto.)  One of the items in the newsletter concerned some ancient stone chimes in China that were laid out as two whole-tone scales -- the earliest 6-6 instrument known (to Tom, anyway).

I'm glad to know about your notation system, which as Dominique mentioned is similar to some previously proposed ones.   One that I recall is the Howe-Way 6+3+3 system, which like yours was designed in conjunction with a 6-6 piano keyboard.  (I don't find it on the Web.)

I'd suggest that you consider using novel clef signs in place of the treble and bass clef signs.  People with musical training will expect that the treble clef (also known as the G clef) is centered on the line for G, and that the bass clef (also known as the F clef) is centered on the note F.  Having a novel clef sign will let people know right away not to expect the traditional pitch-to-staff correspondence.

I want to clarify one minor point:  the "tricky" example that Dominique sent was called "tricky" not by Dominique but by Stephen Hazel, who first posted it to this forum over a year ago.  Also, it is in fact rhythmically complex because of its syncopation, even if it isn't as technically demanding to play on the piano as the piano examples you propose.  You seem to have chosen "visually complex" examples, which is good, but it's a different criterion.  Stephen was specifically inquiring about rhythmic notation, observing that traditional notation is a bit clumsy at representing the syncopations of popular music (which sound quite natural but look complicated in traditional notation).

Regarding your critique of Paul Morris's TwinNote, there has been quite a bit of discussion about the "center of gravity" of a notehead.  TwinNote, like the various versions of Twinline, assumes that an upward-pointing triangle appears visually to be lower than a downward-pointing triangle, even if they have the same vertical extent.  See, for example, http://musicnotation.org/wiki/TwinNote#Pitch-Proportionality .

Best,
Doug

Hi Dominique, 

2011/11/9 dominique.waller <dominiqu...@wanadoo.fr>

張 書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

[書瀚張]

Hi Dominique, 

  Maybe I didn't express myself clearly.

  Thanks for you patient reply, now I've known one more competent system better.

  It is said the hardest thing in the world is to set up new rules. 

  I am not saying "Hey! give me something right now, or I won't believe in you". No, No. 

  I just said "Looking forward to see". I thought I was suggesting you to add one of these example sometime, maybe the time you are building your own website, whatever. 

  Maybe there is some subtle error in my grammar, sorry for that.

  A real difficult comparison is quite necessary to persuade someone who never saw numbered notation before, who have already mastered the traditional notation, and it will definitely make your system more persuasive. 

  And by transcribing the hard section, we'll know the advantages and disadvantages of a notation system more clearly than by just thinking about it, then we can optimize it.

  The choice of time is totally up to you. I'll wait for that patiently ^_^. You can post it on this group anytime, I am definitely going to see it.

  For now, I am nigher reject your notation nor accept it, I'll wait for your future works.

  I am also trying to be objective to my own proposal, that's why I put it here to hear criticism, why I said [I want to check it more thoroughly before trying to put it on MNP wiki].

  The notation problem is an unsolved problem in past hundreds of years. Many talented people were failed, even great people like Rousseau. So why don't we both be a little more patient about it?

[書瀚張]

Hi Doug,

   Thanks, I am happy to be here.

   About the 'center of gravity': I feel that without clear explanation, maybe I will never find or feel the proportionality by myself. 

   Actually I just stared to this picture for a long time:

trying to feel the difference in height, but still in vain.

It seems that I can feel the difference only if the triangle is enlarged big enough and with the center point dot marked.

Maybe it doesn't work to most people? Maybe this system is very excellent but I am a special case? 

The only way to get the answer of this problem is one person one vote. I could not make any conclusions.

If most people can't feel the difference in height, I think the notation I proposed is basically identical to TwinNote with a more traditional-looking, which in my opinion is visually more beautiful(That' what I said in reply to Paul).

If the opposite is true, than TwinNote is absolutely much more effective.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/9 Doug Keislar <do...@musclefish.com>

[Paul Morris]

Hello  張書瀚（Zhang),

Thanks for your thoughts on TwinNote. :-)  I see what you're saying about the triangles occupying the same space or line (based on the tops and bottoms of the triangle shapes).  As Doug mentioned, the idea is that the center of gravity is different for the two triangle shapes, which helps to indicate that one note is higher or lower than the other.  There's the discussion of this on the wiki that Doug linked to, but it may be easiest to see the effect by comparing the chromatic scale in Equiton and TwinNote, for example:

 

 

(images from http://twinnote.org/learn/influences/ ) 

But not everyone likes the triangle shaped notes, and they do take getting used to.  I do see the appeal in keeping consistency with the old look, and traditional notation can be quite beautiful.  Of course, I like to think that TwinNote is beautiful too, in its own way.  :-)  There's room for many different approaches.

You say: "In my proposal, the position sharing rule is [white first and then black]" meaning that the white note is lower than the black note when they share the same line or space.  My thinking is that it makes sense to have the darker/black note be lower, and the lighter/white note be higher.  While this is somewhat arbitrary, there's a tendency to associate light color with the sky, height, upwards, light-weight, etc.  (In English the word "light" has all these meanings: light weight, light color, light vs darkness, etc...)  Also, dark color is associated with the earth, depth, lowness, heavy-weight.  So since we think of notes as being high or low...   This is why I made the light note higher than the dark note when they share the same line or space in TwinNote.  I think this also helps with the perception that one note is higher or lower than the other (in addition to the triangle shapes).  So that's something you might consider. 

(I also think of the Chinese Yin and Yang symbolism of dark and light here...)

Finally, let me also welcome you to the forum!  It is good to have your participation, particularly given the history of the Chinese members of the MNMA.  I've occasionally wondered whether a better notation system might have better chances of catching on in a different culture (like China's) where there wasn't so much weight of European classical music and history wrapped up in people's allegiance to the traditional system. 

Cheers,
Paul M

[John Keller]

The centre of gravity of a solid triangle is at one third of the distance from the base to the tip. But for a hollow triangle this is only true if the triangle is equilateral (three equal sides). For narrow triangles the centre moves up towards the halfway point. For fatter triangles the centre moves down towards the quarter height. A small difference I know, but I think that you can see the difference visually between an up pointing and down pointing triangle if both are solid.

 

On the wiki this file shows black triangle Twinline in which you can see solid up and down triangles and judge whether they appear higher and lower to the eye.

http://musicnotation.org/w/images/b/bf/Bach_Invention_9_in_F_minor_in_4_notations2.pdf

 

Cheers, John K

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Morris

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:25 AM

Subject: Re: [MNP] My analysis on improving music notation and a proposal of alternative notation ^_^

[Doug Keislar]

Hi John,

Where did you get your info about the solid versus hollow triangles' centers of gravity?  I'm not disputing it; just curious.  If it refers to the centers of gravity of actual physical objects (with actual weight), then the question is whether the same difference between solid and hollow applies to the visual perception of triangles.

BTW, the PDF file you mention is not the best illustration of your point, because if you zoom in (say, to 800%), you'll see that in fact the vertical extents of the upward- and downward-pointing rectangles are different.  I assume that has to do with where the Finale software places the noteheads relative to the staff lines.  It seems that the downward triangles are a little too high and the upward ones a little too low, causing the triangles' bases to cross over the staff lines instead of starting at the beginning of the spaces.   This is a small difference, and not one that I think is a big problem, but it might rule out using this rendering of the notation as an illustration of the perception of centers of gravity.

Doug

[書瀚張]

Hello Paul,

   [comparing the chromatic scale in Equiton and TwinNote]: Check the picture below:

I said I am not able to feel the proportionality, because I am not able to feel the white triangle higher than the black one ( the two bounded in same line/space) in normal size without center dot.

I am not sure what you want me to compare by showing that picture, but I basically do these compare below:

1. Compare the chromatic scale starting from #C in equation, with the chromatic scale starting from C in TwinNote.

2. Compare the chromatic scale starting form #C in TwinNote, with the chromatic scale starting from C in equation.

For people who can feel the center/proportionality difference, the whole thing must be different.

So far, I only feel they have difference in shape(circle/triangle), no difference in height/proportionality .(T-T)

[there's a tendency to associate light color with the sky, height, upwards, light-weight, etc.] [Chinese Yin and Yang symbolism of dark and light here]: 

Indeed, using white to indicate the higher note is better ^_^. I din't able to think of the meaning of the color itself at that time. Awesome, thanks a lot!

About [people's allegiance to the traditional system]: In fact, this problem might not be better in China. 

Many professionals majored in western music in China worship the traditional notation as the 'very real way to note music', too.

But we have lots of ethnic musical instruments, for most of them, Jianpu notation is pretty good, and Jianpu is widely used in this area.

But every professionals are supposed to master Jianpu and traditional notation very well, and every professionals learns western music more or less, 

so some of them uses the 'very real way to note music' instead of Jianpu in ethnic musical instruments, too. (T-T)

BTW, there is one very special notation, Guqin Notation(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin_notation), which can not be identically transcribed to any other existing notation, including all these in MNP.

For amateur, most of them learn what teachers teach. 

If a normal amateur (I mean, not able to hire a team to transcribe the staffs for him/her, not able to travel abroad to buy books) in China want to learn keyboard now, 

I am afraid he will have to learn traditional notation anyway(maybe HongKong or some super big cities are exception? not sure.), even if he/she is open-minded.

The problem is big and simple: How to get staffs/books printed in the your notation? 

So in my opinion, an open library of music staff in interchangeable file type is an essential condition for promoting any kind of new notation.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/9 Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com>

[John Keller]

Hi Doug,

 

Re the solid versus hollw triangles, I just thought it through. The limiting cases for the hollow triangle is a vertical line as the  thinnest (centre is midheight) and two (very long but equal) horizontal lines as the fattest, being (1) the base and (2) the sides at their "average" position which is half the height. Just a thought experiment but im pretty sure its correct.

 

Re the Twinline, you are right! I think the original description of the triangles by Tom Reed had them only taking 3/4 of a space each, so that their centres were correctly spaced. I set up the Finale map and font glyphs accordingly. So indeed, that does not show whether the perceived centres of up and down triangles are higher and lower.

 

I do feel however that if you squint so as to blur your eyes and look at solid up and down triangles alligned top and bottom, you will see the shapes appear higher and lower in sync with their centres of gravity.

[Enrique Prieto]

Zhang, thanks for the explanation, my question was rather regarding to music.

 

My concern is if Chinese people would have additional preference for top-bottom notation of music in addition of what any other culture may have.

 

Thanks.

 Enrique.

2011/11/8 書瀚張 <zrq...@gmail.com>

[Paul Morris]

Hello 張書瀚（Zhang),

When I sent my last message, I had not yet read your message where you replied to Doug about not seeing the difference in the triangles' positions. 

With the chromatic scales, I just had in mind looking at the progression of notes as a whole.  To me, in Equiton the progression upwards does not seem to be even, but moves like stair steps (with two notes on each step).  Whereas in TwinNote the progression upwards seems to me to be much more even and continuous as it goes from note to note.  But it sounds like your perception of it is different.  That is interesting to me since most everyone I have talked with about it seem to see it as I do (or they just haven't told me otherwise).  Evidently not everyone sees it this way.

Glad you agree with me on the white and black notes and which should represent the higher and lower pitches.  :-)

It is interesting to hear about the different notation systems in China and how traditional notation is also viewed as authoritative there.  I agree that having music available in an alternative notation is essential, and that an open library of music in an interchangeable file type would be good for that.  That is something I'd like to see happen, but it is a lot of work.

Cheers,
Paul M



書瀚張 wrote:

Hello Paul,

   [comparing the chromatic scale in Equiton and TwinNote]: Check the picture below:

I said I am not able to feel the proportionality, because I am not able to feel the white triangle higher than the black one ( the two bounded in same line/space) in normal size without center dot.

I am not sure what you want me to compare by showing that picture, but I basically do these compare below:

1. Compare the chromatic scale starting from #C in equation, with the chromatic scale starting from C in TwinNote.

2. Compare the chromatic scale starting form #C in TwinNote, with the chromatic scale starting from C in equation.

For people who can feel the center/proportionality difference, the whole thing must be different.

So far, I only feel they have difference in shape(circle/triangle), no difference in height/proportionality .(T-T)

[there's a tendency to associate light color with the sky, height, upwards, light-weight, etc.] [Chinese Yin and Yang symbolism of dark and light here]: 

Indeed, using white to indicate the higher note is better ^_^. I din't able to think of the meaning of the color itself at that time. Awesome, thanks a lot!

About [people's allegiance to the traditional system]: In fact, this problem might not be better in China. 

Many professionals majored in western music in China worship the traditional notation as the 'very real way to note music', too.

But we have lots of ethnic musical instruments, for most of them, Jianpu notation is pretty good, and Jianpu is widely used in this area.

But every professionals are supposed to master Jianpu and traditional notation very well, and every professionals learns western music more or less, 

so some of them uses the 'very real way to note music' instead of Jianpu in ethnic musical instruments, too. (T-T)

BTW, there is one very special notation, Guqin Notation(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin_notation), which can not be identically transcribed to any other existing notation, including all these in MNP.

For amateur, most of them learn what teachers teach. 

If a normal amateur (I mean, not able to hire a team to transcribe the staffs for him/her, not able to travel abroad to buy books) in China want to learn keyboard now, 

I am afraid he will have to learn traditional notation anyway(maybe HongKong or some super big cities are exception? not sure.), even if he/she is open-minded.

The problem is big and simple: How to get staffs/books printed in the your notation? 

So in my opinion, an open library of music staff in interchangeable file type is an essential condition for promoting any kind of new notation.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/9 Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com>

Hello  張書瀚（Zhang),

Thanks for your thoughts on TwinNote. :-)  I see what you're saying about the triangles occupying the same space or line (based on the tops and bottoms of the triangle shapes).  As Doug mentioned, the idea is that the center of gravity is different for the two triangle shapes, which helps to indicate that one note is higher or lower than the other.  There's the discussion of this on the wiki that Doug linked to, but it may be easiest to see the effect by comparing the chromatic scale in Equiton and TwinNote, for example:

 

(images from http://twinnote.org/learn/influences/ ) 

But not everyone likes the triangle shaped notes, and they do take getting used to.  I do see the appeal in keeping consistency with the old look, and traditional notation can be quite beautiful.  Of course, I like to think that TwinNote is beautiful too, in its own way.  :-)  There's room for many different approaches.

You say: "

In my proposal, the position sharing rule is [white first and then black]" meaning that the white note is lower than the black note when they share the same line or space.  My thinking is that it makes sense to have the darker/black note be lower, and the lighter/white note be higher.  While this is somewhat arbitrary, there's a tendency to associate light color with the sky, height, upwards, light-weight, etc.  (In English the word "light" has all these meanings: light weight, light color, light vs darkness, etc...)  Also, dark color is associated with the earth, depth, lowness, heavy-weight.  So since we think of notes as being high or low...   This is why I made the light note higher than the dark note when they share the same line or space in TwinNote.  I think this also helps with the perception that one note is higher or lower than the other (in addition to the triangle shapes).  So that's something you might consider. 

(I also think of the Chinese Yin and Yang symbolism of dark and light here...)

Finally, let me also welcome you to the forum!  It is good to have your participation, particularly given the history of the Chinese members of the MNMA.  I've occasionally wondered whether a better notation system might have better chances of catching on in a different culture (like China's) where there wasn't so much weight of European classical music and history wrapped up in people's allegiance to the traditional system. 

Cheers,
Paul M

書瀚張 wrote:

Hello Paul, 

  Thank you very much for your reply. ^_^

  About the [two notes share the same line or space ---> two pattern of same interval] problem, for the time being I think it is in inevitable for vertically compact graphic chromatic notation.

  In TwinNote, G and #G share the same line, F and #F share the same space, etc. So it's not difficult to enumerate inconsistent examples.  Here is one:

 

  In my proposal, the position sharing rule is [white first and then black]; In TwinNote, [black first and white next]. 'Consistent' means not only the equivalents should look similar, but also inequivalents look different. The inconsistent problems are still there, just in different shape. I am not sure which one of the two inconsistency is better temporarily.

  So basically the notation I proposed is an identical one as yours, just looking more like the traditional notation. ^_^

  I personally feel the traditional notation visually very beautiful. I think the inventors of traditional notation may not be mathematics or rigorous theorist, but they were definitely very good at design beautiful symbols and marks. So I would prefer maintaining the old look as much as possible.  In China, many calligraphy fans enjoy learning to write in 小篆（Small Seal Script http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Seal_Script）, a quite different ancient way to write our language dating back to about 2300 years ago only because it looks beautiful and elegant：

  About the half note, it's another personal taste problem ^_^. It is difficult to cater for all tastes, we don't have to change each other.

  

在 2011年11月7日 下午11:57，Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com>写 道：

Hello  張書瀚（Zhang),

I think your proposal is a good one, and shares a lot with my own approach with TwinNote.  I particularly agree about how the increased distance between notes on most chromatic staves could potentially make reading more difficult for larger intervals and music with a large pitch range, when compared with traditional notation.  Here's an example from the influences page on the TwinNote site:   ( http://twinnote.org/learn/influences/ )

 

The main reservation I have about your proposal is one you mention yourself -- that your system, like Equiton where two notes also share the same line or space, is not as consistent for interval appearance.  Here's the same example in Equiton:

 

You can see the two different sizes of 5ths, while the 6ths have only one size.  This is why TwinNote uses two different triangle note shapes (borrowing this triangle approach from Reed's Twinline).   I think this works better for identifying intervals, while still providing the vertically-compact staff.  Here is the same example in TwinNote:

 

[Paul Morris]

Hi John,

That's interesting about hollow and solid triangles possibly having different centers.  I wonder if people see the white triangles as hollow, or as solid white with a black border?  I don't seem to notice a difference when reading TwinNote...

Oh, and I found an old image (below) of an earlier version of TwinNote TD,  "traditional duration"[1].  The note names are no longer accurate[2], but it's an example of all solid triangles...

Cheers,
Paul M

[1] http://twinnote.org/learn/twinnote-td/
[2] http://twinnote.org/blog/2011/04/fine-tuning-twinnote-part-two/

[John Keller]

To me, the chromatic scale in Twinnote gives the illusion of progressing upward smoothly, not in stepping pairs. Maybe Zhang is looking too closely!

[Victor Mataele]

Hello Zhang,

Heres a sample of what I call getting out of the box. Its for the piano and guitar as well.  Its simple and easy and friendly. Which is what I believe we should strive for.

Victor Mataele

 

From: 書瀚張 <zrq...@gmail.com>
To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [MNP] My analysis on improving music notation and a proposal of alternative notation ^_^

Hi Dominique, 

   I've tried but I'm afraid I have no way to get Gardner Read's <<Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms>> book in China. 

I'm very interested in the part about [Johannes Rohleder in 1792], can you upload the picture of this part? Thanks in advance.

2011/11/6 dominique.waller <dominiqu...@wanadoo.fr>

Hi Zhang,

You are right to say that Souhaitty came before. But without the books of Rousseau and his followers (among them Emile Chevé), I think this number notation wouldn’t have reached China, unless Chinese people had reinvented it by themselves, inspired by their own gongche notation.

            All those systems, Souhaitty, Rousseau, Chevé, where diatonic systems; they were built in reaction against the equal temperament, they were made for vocal music primarily, not for instruments, even if they were adapted to them later. And originally, they were conceived in the idea of the movable do, a relative approach.

            For all these reasons, I prefer the chromatic jianpu you had thought of. Myself, I advocate for an absolute notation taking advantage of the equal temperament and conceived for singing as well as playing, with a numeric nomenclature going from 0 to 11. And I think this type of notation takes place in the course of a general evolution in history. For more details, see the newly updated tutorial on numerical notation on our MNP website.

            About the 6+6 keyboard, I perfectly agree with you.

            About your proposal, I’m sorry to say that it’s not new. According to Gardner Read, it was first proposed by Johannes Rohleder in 1792, and exactly for the same reasons than you: to limit the vertical expansion of the chromatic octave on the staff (which is too fat in its primary form), and to fit the system with the newly invented chromatic keyboard with black and white keys. As not everyone possesses a 6+6 keyboard at home with black and white keys, another version of this staff was invented fifty years later after the colors of the piano keyboard.

            I was interested by your remark that your proposal is more beautiful than a numeric notation. I see what you mean, and I wouldn’t say the contrary. I just think that the visual beauty of a notation may not be a definitive criterion. There are other, more rational criteria. The use of numbers allows having a common language for notes, intervals and chords that can be used on different type of staves, on chord diagrams, in tablatures and in the written text itself for music theory and commentary. For all these reasons, it is preferable to me.

Cheers! Dominique

----- Original Message -----

From: 書瀚張

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 5:51 AM

Subject: Re: [MNP] My analysis on improving music notation and a proposal of alternative notation ^_^

Hi Dominique, 

   Well, I am not very sure but every Jianpu book in China says Souhaitty is the first one. @_@ OK, that not so important anyway, they are all French people ^_^

Can you say something about the 6+6 keyboard and the notation I said in the original post? What are the pros and cons of them in your opinion ? Thanks in advance!

張書瀚(Zhang ShuHan)

2011/11/6 dominique.waller <dominiqu...@wanadoo.fr>

Hi Zhang,

I knew about the French origin of the jianpu. I thought you would have mentionned Jean-Jacques Rousseau instead of Souhaitty.

Thank you very much for your answering thoroughly.

Dominique

----- Original Message -----

From: 書瀚張

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 5:15 PM

Subject: Re: [MNP] My analysis on improving music notation and a proposal of alternative notation ^_^

--

[Keislar, Doug]

Today I found some documentation of the Howe-Way music notation, which I had mentioned in a previous post as being similar to Zhang's notation. An excerpt is attached. This is from the cover of Book Two of the Howe-Way Music Method, by Hilbert A. Howe (year: 1964). There are three lines per octave, but in practice the music is apparently always written on a six-line staff, covering two octaves. The third line from the top is a heavier line (this is not so obvious in the attached scan). This line and the bottom line of the six-line staff are both C. For piano music, each hand has its own six-line staff.

The method is designed for learning to play a 6-6 piano having two rows of keys. The keys in the upper row are shaped like the black keys of a regular piano, grouped in two groups of three per octave: three black keys alternating with three red keys. All the keys in the lower row are white keys, shaped like the D key on a standard keyboard. C is in the lower row (as on a standard keyboard). C#, D#, and F are black keys in the back row; G, A, and B are red keys in the back row. This piano keyboard was built by Orville Wood of the piano company Pratt & Read and is mentioned here:
http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/KEYBOARD.HTM#experiment

So the references to "black" and "red" in the attached image don't refer to colors in the notation, but to colors on the keyboard (in the back row of keys). The notation is black and white.

Pitches are named with numbers. Unlike most numerical nomenclatures, successive numbers refer to whole steps. One whole-tone scale (corresponding to the white keys of the piano) has regular numerals, the other has numerals with underlines. 1 is C, 1 with an underline is C#, 2 is D, etc. C# is referred to as "one and a half," D# as "two and a half," etc., but for speed they can be pronounced 1u, 2u, etc.

Registers are indicated with Roman numerals. Middle C is the beginning of register IV (matching the Acoustical Society of America and later the ISO standard).

Rhythmic notation is mostly traditional. The whole note has a stem, half of which rises from the notehead, and half of which descends from it. The half note has no stem. (Odd. You'd think he would have switched these two time values, to keep the whole note without a stem, as in TN.) There is a note saying that the inventor hoped for a special typewriter key that would render a special notehead shape for a whole note, perhaps a diamond shape, in place of the aforementioned special stem on a regular round notehead.

Doug

[Enrique Prieto]

When comparing two separate heads they look at the same position but yes there is a difference when using triangles, they can be differentiated without using different colors, also the different positions of the stems in the triangles is what gives that impression of a uniform proportionality, but what if the stems were in opposite positions, what about real complex scores that continue being avoided.

 

B.R.

Enrique.

[書瀚張]

Hi Enrique, 

   The answer is no. The two most widely used notations in China are Jianpu and the Traditional Notation, they are both written horizontally.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

[書瀚張]

Hello Victor, 

I read the piano part.

Your notation is a completely different one. Very creative. It amazes me.

Mark the fingering clearly, arranging notes in the staff at the same time. Awesome.

With a enough music staff in your notation, I think your notation will be popular.

In my opinion, it definitively works much better than any abstract notation for piano/guitar, 

while the abstract notations ignore instrument-dependent detail to make one staff potentially suitable to many instruments.

The instrument in this picture is 箏（GuZheng：http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guzheng）

It'll take some time to make your notation suitable for a new instrument, right?

I believe the good notations in both kind, abstract/vivid need to be invented, and provide enough staffs in interchangeable file format, then let the people to make decision.

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/9 Victor Mataele <victor_...@yahoo.com>

[書瀚張]

Hi Keislar, 

Thank you very much for providing such a precious material! 

This would be what I proposed:

The tail of half note looks slightly different from the reversed tail of eighth note.

The true inventor of this series of notation are the inventors of traditional notation and the first person who put neighboring two notes in the same line and distinguish them with black and white(Maybe Johannes Rohleder in 1792 according to Dominique) ^_^ .

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/9 Keislar, Doug <do...@musclefish.com>

Doug

[Waller]

Hi Zhang,

Thanks for your sensible answer. Dominique

> 2011/11/9 dominique.waller <dominique.wal...@wanadoo.fr>
>
>
>
> > **

>
> > Hi Zhang,
>
> >             The example I sent you is tricky enough for you to understand
> > how my system works. I don’t feel you took much time to analyze it. Every
> > time I respond to you, you say it’s not enough.
>
> >             I absolutely could transcribe any of those extreme examples.
> > It’s just that it would take hours of hard work for me. And all this for
> > what? It’s clear enough you wouldn’t change your mind at the end anyway.
>
> > ----- Original Message -----

> > *From:* 書瀚張 <zrqs...@gmail.com>
> > *To:* musicn...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 08, 2011 7:07 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [MNP] My analysis on improving music notation and a

> > proposal of alternative notation ^_^
>
> > Hi Dominique,
>
> >    There's one problem, the tricky part you picked isn't tricky at all. I
> > mentioned that I tried to transcribe some dazzling classic music in Jianpu
> > before.
> > I asked many people what music staff look visually complex. Here are some
> > parts I suggest:
> > 1. [1]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai
> > [image: [1]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai.png]
> > [2]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai
> > [image: [2]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai.png]
> > [3]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt
> > [image: [3]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt.png]
> >  [4]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt
> > [image: [4]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt.png]
>
> > I chose REMINISCENCES DE NORMA as the test material at that time.
>
> >   張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

> >  2011/11/9 dominique.waller <dominique.wal...@wanadoo.fr>
>
> >> **

>
> >> Hi Zhang,
>
> >>             1. Yes!
>
> >>              2. There is a lot of definition in it, but maybe you read
> >> it too fast. There’s a paragraph that explains how rhythms should be
> >> written and understood, and how chords are written and coded. But it’s not
> >> very straightforward, it’s true.
>

> >> ******

>
> >>             4. You want short information, here it comes
>

> >> ****

>
> >> Notes : chromatic scale of twelve numbers from 0 to 11:
>

> >> ****
>
> >>             C = 0 ; C# =1 ; D = 2 ;  Eb = 3 ; E = 4 ; F = 5 ; F# = 6 ; **
> >> **

>
> >>             G = 7 ;  G# = 8 ; A = 9 ; Bb = 10 ; B = 11 (with special
> >> symbols for 10 and 11)
>

> >> ****

>
> >> Intervals : measured by half-tones notated °
>

> >> ****

>
> >> Fingers : the five vowels a e i o u  (from thumb to little finger)
> >> written in handwriting characters.
>

> >> ****

>
> >> Time notation : see the table in the attached file. You can see that your
> >> half note have something in common with mine.
>

> >> ****

>
> >> Rests : the same symbols but without cipher attached.
>

> >> ****

> >> *From:* 書瀚張 <zrqs...@gmail.com>
> >> *To:* musicn...@googlegroups.com
> >>  *Sent:* Tuesday, November 08, 2011 8:39 AM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [MNP] My analysis on improving music notation and a

> >> proposal of alternative notation ^_^
>
> >> Hi Dominique,
> >>    I have read it ^_^, here are my thoughts:
>
> >> 1. I think that document talks about: why numbers,
> >> potential benefits(Simplify the chord, interval, singing), some the
> >> experience of author.
>
> >> 2. I didn't find a lot of definition in it, such as how you're going to
> >> mark half note, quarter notes, fingering, transpose, rest, staccato, Treble
> >> Clef, Bass Clef..... and how good the system works when transcribing
> >> dazzling music paragraph. The picture at the end of the doc has many
> >> undefined (in your doc) mystery symbols to me (T-T) .
>
> >> 3. There's an interesting coincidence in the document. 'Major third '
> >> translated in our language is '大三度', which is 'Big three degree'. 7° is
> >> read as '七度' which is 'seven degree'. In some informal circumstance, I
> >> write ‘大3°’ or '大三' for short of '大三度(Major third )' ^_^.
>
> >> 4. Looking forward to see your: [3. mapping table between traditional
> >> notation and your notation] and [4. comparison example].
>
> >>  張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）
>

> >> 2011/11/7 dominique.waller <dominique.wal...@wanadoo.fr>
>
> >>> **

> >>> Zhang,
>
> >>> Have you read the attached file I sent to you ?  Theres' a lot of
> >>> definition in it.
> >>> Read it first and then I'll give you more.  Dominique
>
> >>>  ----- Original Message -----

> >>> *From:* 書瀚張 <zrqs...@gmail.com>
> >>> *To:* musicn...@googlegroups.com
> >>>  *Sent:* Monday, November 07, 2011 2:31 PM
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [MNP] My analysis on improving music notation and a

> >>> proposal of alternative notation ^_^
>
> >>> Hi Dominique,
>
> >>>    It doesn't matter whether the book is translated or not, because:
> >>> 1.  At most one page of definition
> >>> 2. A mapping table between traditional notation and your notation
> >>> 3. An comparison example, i.e, a difficult section of classic music
> >>> with complex chords in your notation and traditional notation.
> >>> 4. For people dislike reading, A tutorial video in YouTube.
>
> >>>    These would be very very enough materials to recognize an elegant
> >>> notation system.
> >>> For me, 123 is enough. And these above do not need as much translation
> >>> as a book  ^_^.
>

> >>> *About 10, 11: *

> >>> Before writing last post to you, I had already read your paper about 10
> >>> and 11. I won't say your proposal is bad.
> >>> But being a student of computer science, I am familiar with the
> >>> hexadecimal.
> >>> I don't know how many people know it, but for anyone knows hexadecimal,
> >>> A/a=10, B/b=11 is quite natural. And I humbly guess that the resembling α,β
> >>> might also be quite natural.
>
> >>>  張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）
>

> >>>  2011/11/7 dominique.waller <dominique.wal...@wanadoo.fr>
>
> >>>> **

>
> >>>> Hi Zhang,
>
> >>>> This is a link to our website where I justify my choice of two symbols
> >>>> for ten and eleven.
> >>>>http://musicnotation.org/w/images/2/21/Waller_single_digit_symbols.pdf
>
> >>>> Maybe you’ve read it already, as it is mentioned in the tutorial.
>
> >>>>             There’s no presentation of my system elsewhere on the site
> >>>> and I don’t have a personal website either. One of the reasons is that it
> >>>> has changed through the years. The other is that I’m preparing a book in
> >>>> French that won’t be published before several years where I discuss all the
> >>>> aspects of it. I hope it will be translated in English thereafter so you
> >>>> can read it…
>
> >>>>             Nevertheless, there’s
>

> ...
>
> plus de détails »

>
>  [4]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt.png

> 329KAfficherTélécharger

>
>  [1]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai.png

> 50KAfficherTélécharger

>
>  [2]From HuanHe Chapter 4 composed by Xian XinHai.png

> 59KAfficherTélécharger

>
>  [3]From REMINISCENCES DE NORMA, composed by Liszt.png

> 275KAfficherTélécharger- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

[Michael Johnston]

> Hi Zhang,
> Thanks for your sensible answer. Dominique

Ah, the French and the Chinese, great friends. Now, we just need some
Iranians, Afghans, and North Koreans. But seriously, the *South* Koreans
are 100% Traditional Notation as I understand it. There are a number of
fine Korean organists who are delving into Western organ music.

Is anyone aware of a music notation from an Arabic country? (not
historical Moorish Spain) My understanding is that their music is almost
all religious chants. Even in the midst of the "Arab Spring," I still
don't have a clue how to attract their interest, if there is any to be
attracted.

[Doug Keislar]

Good question. I did a quick Web search (not a scholarly approach). It
appears that the Arab world didn't have an indigenous music notation per
se, and they adopted Western musical notation in the 19th and 20th
centuries, with microtonal accidentals.

http://leb.net/rma/Articles/Samaie_Farhafza.pdf
http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/notation02.asp

Some examples of notated music:
http://www.classicalarabicmusic.com/Classical%20Notation%20samples/07-Bashraf%20Rast-Tatius%20Afandi.htm
http://www.classicalarabicmusic.com/Muwashahat%20Samples/03-Darij%20Jhar%20Kah.htm

Doug

On 11/9/2011 1:12 PM, Michael Johnston wrote:
> [...]

[Doug Keislar]

P.S. BTW there's a lot of folk music, popular music, and secular "art"
music in Arabic countries -- it's not all sacred music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_music
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_pop_music

[Doug Keislar]

P.P.S. The forum has among its readers a former Iraqi national, Saieb
Khalil, whose notation system can be seen at
http://musicnotation.org/wiki/I-Accord_Music_Notation . Perhaps he
knows more about music notation in the Middle East and the Arab world.
The use of microtonal accidentals, including in key signatures, is
interesting (you can see some such key signatures in the URLs of
notated music I posted in my original email below of 11/9/2011 2:20
PM). The Muslim world is one place you can commonly hear real
quarter-tones, as opposed to slightly inflected intonations of diatonic
notes. When I visited Mali, Africa, I was awoken early every morning by
an amplified chant (a call to prayer) coming from a nearby mosque, with
the melody containing a perfectly tuned pitch one-and-a-quarter whole
steps above the tonic. (This note lies halfway between the tonic and
the perfect fourth above the tonic.) Unforgettable.

[Paul Morris]

Doug, That's fascinating stuff!  Especially about the quarter-tone call to prayer in Mali. 

I created a wiki page for Howe-Way notation with the image and information you sent about it:
http://musicnotation.org/wiki/Howe-Way_Music_Notation

Hi 張書瀚（Zhang),
Looking at the most recent image you sent, with the five-line staff, reminded me of the experimental 5-line version of TwinNote I've been trying out:
http://twinnote.org/labs/five-line-staff-version/

(As I mention on that page, I've been thinking of using a lighter / dashed middle line to differentiate it from the traditional staff.  It looks like you're using a thicker, bold one, which could work too.)

And that made me think of something else you might consider.  If you're using a 5-line staff, and you make the middle line and the ledger lines represent B and C, rather than C and C#...  then the natural notes on the bottom half of the staff correspond to those of the the traditional treble clef staff.  This is what I did with TwinNote.  Here's a blog post with better explanations and illustrations:
http://twinnote.org/blog/2011/04/fine-tuning-twinnote-part-two/

Maybe it's a small thing, but I think it makes sense.  Thought I would suggest it, FWIW (for what it is worth).

Cheers,
Paul M

[書瀚張]

Hello Paul,

  [experimental 5-line version of TwinNote I've been trying out]:

  I have to admit that:

  1. I have partiality for preserving traditional looks~ ^_^.  If I preserve the five line I can use C/F/G clef symbols. The proficient user can use the existing printed staff papers.

  2. The two-line pattern is evidently a more simple and direct way to makes things clear.

  [If you're using a 5-line staff, and you make the middle line and the ledger lines represent B and C, rather than C and C#]:

  I've noticed the difference before my first rely to you. I'm still not sure about this. See this picture:

  

The first one is the ascending G major scale in the current fine-tuned TwinNote.

The second is the comparison of two arpeggios of the same structure. The first one is started from C, and the second one is started from G;

So you know what I mean, in my opinion, if you choose to make the the scales starting from the white look more like the traditional treble staff,

than the scales starting from the black won't, and vice versa.

The second comparison is to show that I think it is almost inevitable to have two pattern of same structure if a graphic chromatic notation tries to be vertically more compact than the direct chromatic notation in MNP homepage.

So I wonder if there's any difference between the two ways, temporarily I think I'll just say:"Guys, this notation basically compressed the direct chromatic vertically to make staffs more readable when the music range becomes wide. There would be two patterns. Nevertheless, compared with the TD, it is regular, easy, and predictable.". 

Have you thought this before? What do you think?

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/11 Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com>

[Paul Morris]

書瀚張 wrote:

So you know what I mean, in my opinion, if you choose to make the the scales starting from the white look more like the traditional treble staff,

than the scales starting from the black won't, and vice versa.

Hello 書瀚張 (Zhang),

Hmmm... I see what you're saying, and I think you're probably right, but...   I'm not thinking about what the *scales* look like, but rather which notes the *lines and spaces* of the new staff represent, and to what extent this matches the traditional staff. 

So... on the traditional staff the lines and spaces each represent one of the "natural" notes (A B C D E F G).  In either of our systems each line and space also represents one of those notes -- except for one line or space (per octave) which represents two of them (either E&F or B&C).  So for someone transitioning from the traditional system they will ask, "how many of the lines and spaces still represent the same notes?" (A B C D E F G) 

To put it another way, since the traditional staff is based on the C major (or A minor) scale, it is the C major (A minor) scale that matters more than the others, when thinking about transitioning between the two systems.

This deserves images...  apologies for their poor quality.

Here's your current proposal, where 3 notes match the traditional treble staff (like the earlier version of TwinNote):




Here's another possibility where it would match 7 notes instead (like TwinNote):




Hopefully that helps clarify it?  In some ways it's a minor consideration, but I do think the greater consistency with the traditional treble staff is helpful.

The second comparison is to show that I think it is almost inevitable to have two pattern of same structure if a graphic chromatic notation tries to be vertically more compact than the direct chromatic notation in MNP homepage.

Yes, in TwinNote there are two different appearances for each interval:  http://twinnote.org/learn/intervals/
I think the triangles help to make the patterns clearer and easier to recognize, but some may not see it that way.

I think looking at all the intervals like this in any new system is a good practice.

Cheers,
Paul M

[書瀚張]

Hi Paul, 

  I consider this problem for a long time, and ask some classmates. Almost all of them say "TwinNote layout is definitely good for people who has learn the TN before",

  some of them say for who never learn TN before, the Equation layout might be a little more natural.

 

  I would like to keep Equation layout because:

  1. TwinNote is a excellent notation system, I will recommend everyone who want a new notation to take a look at it .

      For people prefer TwinNote layout , I will recommend them to use TwinNote directly. And I feel the new TwinNote layout works better with TwinNote's two-line pattern.

  2. Some of my classmates and I feel that the Equation layout is mathematically more natural because it keeps 12 notes in an octave in less lines and spaces.

      So offering a Equation layout notation provides an alternative choice.

  Thanks very much for your insightful suggestions!

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/12 Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com>

[Paul Morris]

Hi 張書瀚（Zhang),

Thanks for considering my thoughts on the layout question.  I hope they were helpful.  It's good to discuss these things with you.  Thanks also for your kind words about TwinNote, and for telling others about it.  I look forward to learning more about your system as you get the all details worked out!

-Paul M




書瀚張 wrote:

Hi Paul, 

  I consider this problem for a long time, and ask some classmates. Almost all of them say "TwinNote layout is definitely good for people who has learn the TN before",

  some of them say for who never learn TN before, the Equation layout might be a little more natural.

 

  I would like to keep Equation layout because:

  1. TwinNote is a excellent notation system, I will recommend everyone who want a new notation to take a look at it .

      For people prefer TwinNote layout , I will recommend them to use TwinNote directly. And I feel the new TwinNote layout works better with TwinNote's two-line pattern.

  2. Some of my classmates and I feel that the Equation layout is mathematically more natural because it keeps 12 notes in an octave in less lines and spaces.

      So offering a Equation layout notation provides an alternative choice.

  Thanks very much for your insightful suggestions!

張書瀚（Zhang ShuHan）

2011/11/12 Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com>

[Michael Johnston]

>> Almost *all of them* say "TwinNote layout is *definitely *good**for

>> people who has learn the TN before"

Hi, Zhang. Would either of these be good names for Paul's system? Why or
why not? And how would an inventor best decide on a Chinese name for a
system?

双注
双子座

[書瀚張]

Hi Michael,

双注 isn't very suitable. It has multiple meanings. Sometimes 双注 means mark or interpret something in two different ways（双注解, 双解）, for example ; but 注 has other meanings such as Gamble stake(双赌注).

双子座 = Gemini( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_(astrology) ). 

座 here means constellation.

I recommend subtracting the [座]:

双子(or [雙子] in traditional form)记谱法(means Notation System) is good one ^_^.

张书瀚(Zhang ShuHan)

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