Music XML Test

[Michael Johnston]

Jason wanted to know if I knew of a source for Music XML files that
could be used for producing notation. I don't. The concept of using a
base that was common to everyone and could be used to produce results in
all systems for easy comparison is appealing to me. Music XML is mostly
concerned with describing the physical attributes of music but it could
be used this way, don't you think? So can MIDI, but neither system is great.

I took my shortest little piece and created a MIDI file from Sibelius;
my version cannot export Music XML. Then, I read that MIDI into Finale
and exported the attached Music XML file.

http://michaelsmusicservice.com/music/JohnstonM.ChristTheLife.html shows
a bit of the printed music and a couple of recordings not played by
computer. I offer this little piece as a test if anybody wants to try
it. There is so much that needs tweaking that I'm not impressed that
this will be part of making our transnotation solution.

Cheers!
Michael
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704-567-1066 ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **
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[Doug Keislar]

On 11/18/2010 5:48 AM, Michael Johnston wrote:
> Jason wanted to know if I knew of a source for Music XML files that
> could be used for producing notation. I don't.

See the links at
http://www.recordare.com/musicxml/music

> The concept of using a base that was common to everyone and could be
> used to produce results in all systems for easy comparison is
> appealing to me. Music XML is mostly concerned with describing the
> physical attributes of music but it could be used this way, don't you
> think? So can MIDI, but neither system is great.
>
> I took my shortest little piece and created a MIDI file from Sibelius;
> my version cannot export Music XML. Then, I read that MIDI into Finale
> and exported the attached Music XML file.

Interesting. It's too bad that MIDI is a very "lossy" protocol for
representing music notation information. It's good for conveying
actions on a keyboard instrument, which was its original purpose.

>
> http://michaelsmusicservice.com/music/JohnstonM.ChristTheLife.html
> shows a bit of the printed music and a couple of recordings not played
> by computer. I offer this little piece as a test if anybody wants to
> try it. There is so much that needs tweaking that I'm not impressed
> that this will be part of making our transnotation solution.

Do you mean tweaking the MusicXML code to convert it from TN to an AN?
I don't think anyone expects people to edit MusicXML by hand in this
way; there would need to be software to import MusicXML, convert it from
TN to an AN, optionally allow edits, and finally export MusicXML and/or
PDF. (I a see a note at the above URL saying they did hand-tweak those
MusicXML files as needed...but probably not for anything as extensive as
conversion to an AN.)

Doug

[Doug Keislar]

I went to one of the sites mentioned at the recordare.com site:
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:The_Sheet_Music_Project
I clicked on "Advanced Search" at the left.
Under "Filetype," I selected "XML" and did a search. There were 59
results, including a Brandenburg Concerto. I've attached one movement
from it.

Doug

[Jason Maccoy]

Yes, we need to identify repositories of Public Domain songs that are already in the MusicXML, Sibelius, Finale or Midi formats.  This way they can be converted to our respective Alternative Notation styles.

 

I took what Michael sent and converted it to Numbered Notes.  It came out pretty good....

 

If anyone knows where to go for large repositories of sheet music in the afformentioned file types please post so we can adress this issue.

 

If we want to change music notation we are going to have to be able to have access to the world's inventories and convert them. 

 

Soon my website (www.numberednotes.com) will offer the ability for users to send in their sheet music files (.xml, Finale, Sibelius or Midi) and I will convert them ($2.95).  This way even if I can find the music or make a deal with the publishers I can still offer individuals the abiltiy to convert their own music.

 

This is a huge issue for the group because at some point we are going to need to deal with the issue of converting large amounts of songs.

 

If anyone has good ideas....let's figure it out.

 

I have attatched a converted version of what Micheal sent so you all can see how NN handles Pitch and Timing.

 

all the best, Jason

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[Doug Keislar]

Wow, that was fast, Jason!  Does your software convert from MusicXML to NN automatically, or did you have to do a lot of hand tweaking?

It's great to be able to see side-by-side comparisons of the same music in TN and in ANs.

 Comparing your PDF to Michael's TN (http://michaelsmusicservice.com/music/JohnstonM.ChristTheLife.html), I have to say frankly that the first thing that strikes me is that it's very hard to discriminate the note numbers when viewing your NN PDF at 100% (which even at that size is larger than the TN).  The noteheads in the TN are much clearer.  It makes me wonder whether combining numbers and staff lines is a good idea after all.  The Carrillo style of notation seems more legible, even if it lacks pitch-proportional spacing.  But this is just a first impression; I would be interested to hear counter-arguments and other people's impressions.

Doug

[Jason Maccoy]

Great find Doug,

 

This is exactly what we need to locate so that we can show how our respective notation systems handle a variety of songs.

 

Sheetmusicdigital.com is also a resource.

Thanks, Jason
www.NumberedNotes.com

[Michael Johnston]

> Wow, that was fast, Jason! Does your software convert from MusicXML to
> NN automatically, or did you have to do a lot of hand tweaking?

I think this was the output from Jason's software. If I had a proper XML
file (need money to upgrade Sibelius <G>), it would have been even
better with a separate line for the chorale melody, as in the printed music.

Doug's point about MIDI is well taken, and it's one I always put in the
back of my mind, forgetting about it. Can someone else contribute a 100%
perfect Music XML file? Finale 2009 has it so if anyone has a Finale
file, it could be exported from that.

[Paul Morris]

[Paul Morris]

Jason MacCoy wrote:
> If anyone knows where to go for large repositories of sheet music in the
> afformentioned file types please post so we can adress this issue.

See http://musicnotation.org/software/index.html

with links to:

Mutopia Project,
Gutenberg Sheet Music Project,
Wikifonia.

If anyone knows of others let me know and we can add them to that webpage.

Cheers,
Paul M

[Jason Maccoy]

Thanks, yes....my new converter can pretty much convert any .xml, .sib, .fin or midi in seconds (even the most complex peices)

This is why I am now ready to try to expand into larger inventories.  I should add I spent a lot of money and time developing this so I'm hopeful to be able to offer publisher the abiltiy to directly convert their inventories.

 

I have Sibelius 6 and Finale2010 so if you need me to make content just send me files and I can export them as .xml.

 

Infact, if anyone would like to work with me on this I am eager to collaborate with others on getting me songs to convert.  In another two months I will be persuing investors again and with new content I think I will get funding.  They usually want to see significant traction with downloads, users and involvement before they put up money.

 

At this point my goal is to create 1000 songs in NN and develop the user base.

 

So, if anyone is interested in working with me on getting songs I'd love to talk more.  If you just want songs converted from the other file formats to .xml I would be happy to help you out with that too.

 

Thanks J

www.numberednotes.com

ps, here is another comples song converted, in the past I just showed basic songs but these show more sophisticated use of the pitch and timing elements.

--

[Doug Keislar]

On 11/18/2010 11:27 AM, Jason Maccoy wrote:
>
> Thanks, yes....my new converter can pretty much convert any .xml,
> .sib, .fin or midi in seconds (even the most complex peices)

That's excellent! Great work!

Can your software handle orchestral scores? Here's a page of a piece by
Rimsky-Korsakov, from his book on orchestration, available also as
MusicXML, PDF, and MP3:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33900/33900-h/rimsky2.html#No_204

Pages of orchestra scores really put ANs to the test in terms of the
AN's use of space. That's one reason the MNMA Evaluation Project used
an excerpt from the Rite of Spring as the final example in its
evaluation test (http://musicnotation.org/mnma/research.html#four).

Doug

[Doug Keislar]

Or, even more demanding in terms of vertical space, consider the very
last example on that same Web page (it has 24 staves -- still less than
the Rite of Spring example the MNMA used, which had 30).

Doug

[Jason Maccoy]

I just tried to convert it and it did not look very good, I will look into why not and likely be able to get a version working soon.

 

My converter can do .Xml, .Sib, .Fnl and Midi.  I'm choosing not to deal with .PDF's because even the best Musical Character Optical Recognition software is prone to errors.  For this reason I'm going to let the customer get things the way they want it and then send it to me in a file formate I will be able to convert with high (100%) accuracey if possible.  I think I could also do .MP3 but I have not thought about this yet.....I'll have to look into that and get back to you.

As for the text pieces listed on the MNP webpage.....do you guys know if they are available in .xml ?  If so, please send to me and I will see how well my converter handles them.

 

Thanks, Jason

www.NumberedNotes.com

[Doug Keislar]

On 11/18/2010 12:19 PM, Jason Maccoy wrote:
> I just tried to convert it and it did not look very good, I will look
> into why not and likely be able to get a version working soon.
> My converter can do .Xml, .Sib, .Fnl and Midi. I'm choosing not to
> deal with .PDF's because even the best Musical Character Optical
> Recognition software is prone to errors. For this reason I'm going to
> let the customer get things the way they want it and then send it to
> me in a file formate I will be able to convert with high (100%)
> accuracey if possible. I think I could also do .MP3 but I have not
> thought about this yet.....I'll have to look into that and get back to
> you.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting processing the PDF or MP3, just
using them for reference possibly. I agree about OCR. As for MP3,
transcribing audio recordings of orchestra to music notation is an
unsolved research problem, so I wouldn't bother going down that route.

>
> As for the text pieces listed on the MNP webpage.....do you guys know
> if they are available in .xml ? If so, please send to me and I will
> see how well my converter handles them.

I don't know. The MNMA test was done in the late 1990s, when the Web
was still relatively young and before MusicXML existed.

Doug

[Jason Maccoy]

Has anyone else who converted these songs created Finale files?  John Keller perhaps?  If so it would be great to post them so that they are available for attempted conversions.

Also, it may be a good idea for everyone to convert the same song so people could see direct comparisons between notation systems.  Like everyone do Twinkle Twilnkle or something.

 

Jason

www.NumberedNotes.com

Doug

[John Keller]

Naturally I went straght to work and converted both the Midi and the XML of Michael's piece into Finale. The midi was the most successful because of the options Finale offers. The best result was to choose "Channels become staves" (rather than "Tracks become staves") and then delete the blank staves. Also important to set Key Signature to C major (no sharps or flats).

 

Once you have a decent Finale file, you can use my method to convert to any AN that has the percussion map set up. Just copy and paste the style from the converter over the staves of the music.

 

If you want new clefs or timing methods you have to add in more tweaking. Actually all I did was load the library of clefs and stem connections etc.

 

I attach the 2 Finale files and 2 PDFs of the conversion to ES.

 

John K

 

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