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Many explanations have been put forward such as cavalry dominance in aom and Poseidon has the best cavalry; cheaper stables/cavalry; slightly better on water maps; easier to play, etc, etc. Other things such as the fact that Zeus isn't really an infantry civilization; Hades problems on water; etc have also been mentioned.Not to say that these aren't true, but I was thinking last night, ok what does Poseidon have that Hades/Zeus doesn't?And that's when I looked again at the minor god distribution.And noted that Hades/Zeus has Athena and Apollo whereas Poseidon does not.I would argue that since these two minor gods are not very good compared to their alternatives this puts Zeus/Hades at a disadvantage.Consider how many times a Zeus player picks Hermes over Athena or a Hades player picks Ares over Athena. The decision, in most cases, is automatic.Why does this happen? Well, the athena myth techs only benefit one unit and are very costly. 300w 25fav for 10% pierce upgrade on just hoplites (half an army at best) is just not worth the investment unless you're in mythic and have everything else and by this time athena's time to contribute is long past. I would hope that "Infantry defense" really does become infantry defense and that the techs benefit both hoplites and hypaspists and either give more bonus or cost less.What else does Athena have? A god power and a myth unit. The myth unit suffers from a chicken-and-egg situation. Without the bull upgrade the minotaur is quite food expensive and not very powerful (especially when compared to the cyclops). But, if you invest in the bull upgrade (a hefty amount of wood and favour), you have no minotaur on the field and you just spent a pile of resources.And the god power? A portable, one-shot healing spring. Decent, but only best used at pop-max, or better yet in heroic where you can have an even larger army. Healing spring, while not portable, still offers the opportunity for multiple-healing. I would argue that, well decent, restoration is not that appealing, especially when compared to the flexibility offered by ceasefire and how dismal the rest of Athena is.Apollo is in a similar situation. The myth unit costs 5 pop and is really not a pop-effective unit (unless massed and even then it's debatable). The god power is not as effective as bronze (though may be argued to be as decent as curse depending on the situation). And the techs are just not worth the investment. Just take a look at how much favour the sun ray costs. Will you be able to AFFORD any other techs after getting this one??The temple of healing, while attractive, only heals one unit *slowly* at a time. Other than healing myth units, this tech is not that good.Compare this with aphrodite's econ techs or dionysus' hp techs and they're just not as good.I'd argue that these minor gods contribute to why Zeus/Hades are not as good.Any thoughts?fh AuthorReplies: Creso
Mortal posted 29 August 2003 08:57 AM EDT (US) 1 / 19 I disagree, these "bad minor gods", are not so bad. Why is Athena not bad:1) She has one of the best classical myth units in the game, they are pop effective, though one does falls really fast to a couple of hersirs, but not to one. 2) Aegies shield is not a useless tech, especially for Zeus, with .5 faster hops, plus more piece armor, & copper shields, your hops will get to their archers in time before getting sluaghter. 3) Sarissa is a good tech against cav, it gives your hops more hack armor, making them less vulnerable to hack attacks. That plus copper armor give the oplite a pretty decent hack armor.4) As Hades Athena is not a viable choice, but as Zeus it is, cause all her upgrades affect your hoplites, thus they last longer, & remember Zeus infantry bonus against buildings5) Restoration can help you retain a tc, survive a siege, etc. Though Cease fire is betterApollo1) Temple of Healing is the only way Greeks get healing in 1 vs 1 games. That is unless you capture a healing spring.
It's in no way bad, besides it's fairly cheap, 150 gold,20 favor?, come on. As Zeus, favor never is a trouble.2) Oracle does help you see whats comming wa ahead of you. Combine that with the pelt of argus relic, & you'e've got yourself in every soldier a movile lightnouse.3) Sun Ray is not a terrible tech, nor expensive, 200 gold, come on, 40 favor is a little over the edge, but with Zeus that tech is available. FU Zeus toxotes with Sun Ray do 11 pierce damage, you'll need taht to chew up myrmidons counters.4) Underground Passage is indeed far less powerful than bronze, but it isn't useful.OK, there are maybe reasons why you never choose Athena or Apollo vs Hermes & Dyonissus(spell?), one o those is because you're a cav spammer, or you're just too lazy to optimize your eco in order to use hop/toxThere is also something Zeus has that the other 2 Greek Gods don't have, & that is a unique minor god choice. Why Hera is not a bad choice.1) Lightning Storm may give you that necessary help to win a game.2) Her myth tech improves your myth units attack, no other myth tech around compares to that.3) Her myth unit has a one hit kill special, & fu has 19 pierce attack, that's great.The god choices depend on your style, personally, as Zeus I don't use cav unless I'm being rushed by a Hades who masses archers, which rarely happens.If you wanna spam cavarly, play Poseidon.ESO: TheWiseDux, TheSmartDux, TheDuxGnothi Seauton Mokon
Mortal posted 29 August 2003 09:09 AM EDT (US) 2 / 19 One word...... Lure..... This gives poseidon the offensive advatage.Zeus in fact is acturely better than poseidon vs norse but to do this it takes some skill...... and newb levels give most of the win percentagesMokon AoE3 Rate 2200
Thegl
Banned posted 29 August 2003 11:07 AM EDT (US) 3 / 19 You've been saying this for months now, and it always makes me cringe. Athena rules for zeus. Minos are zeus' biggest benefit, he can afford to actually make them, and 1 unupgraded mino can beat 5 RCs. I'll definetly grant that restoration sucks and that the two hoplite techs are WAY overpriced. Compared to the exact same norse techs that affect everything and cost 1/3 what athenas cost.I wrote an article on the comparison of god advantages to relics in the game, and it clearly showed which god advantages were better than others. The jist of it is that cheaper cav wasn't that big a deal (there are relics that do the same to other mainline units), but that militia was a big deal (imagine a relic granting that ability).Aside from militia, the real problem is inherent to infantry. Obviously cavalry rules the game, for many reasons including ability to raid, being more cost efficient in classical, and are barely countered by thier counters (infantry die miserably to thier counters). Since it is a game of cavalry at this point (hopefully changing in xpac somehow), posieden is simply 10 percent better for all intents and purposes. x_Scarface_x
Mortal posted 29 August 2003 11:21 AM EDT (US) 4 / 19 I agree Cresco. Appollo and Athena are not bad at all. If you are zeus Athena gives you great techs for your hoplite, a unit that is very important to zeus. And appollos god power is awsome, to spring up somewhere through underworld passage. Also if you are hades you want apollo for his archer bonus's.*S c a r f a c E* goodbaby
Mortal posted 29 August 2003 11:50 AM EDT (US) 5 / 19 I believe the major difference is poseidon's civil bonus is more useful.
Comparing Zeus vs Poseidon,poseidon's cavalry bonus is not as significant as Zeus,but in Age of Cavalry,cavalry bonus is easy to use.The cheaper stable bonus also means Poseidon player can get cavalry faster,which Zeus lacks.
And Poseidon have militia.I really dont understand this.The militia are too strong.With normal upgrades,they are as strong as egypt spearman,which cost 50f and 20 gold.A 75 stable,can pump units,and when destroyed,it can give 2 or 3 spearman,and only cost 1 pop? Comparing militia with Hades's shades,militia are much useful because they come right from where the building is destroyed.To play against poseidon,normally you need a lot of sieges,because knock down 1 building,at least 2 militia will be attacking the siege.Militia is also better than Hades's stronger building bonus.Another thing about Zeus is his bonus mainly focus on infantry.Infantry normally have low survive rate(except TA).That makes Zeus need a superior economic to keep the size of the army which Zeus doesnt have until myth age.Cavalry and archers normally live longer.Hades is weak.Hades's civ bonus on his major army is not as good as Poseidon.Even comparing with Zeus,it's not that great.Poseidon's cheaper cavalry equals save resource gives 10% more HP and 10% more attack.Hades only have 10% attack.Cheaper stables means with same wood,poseidon can get cavalry 33% faster,Hades's stronger building bonus does not directly bring him such benefit.
Shades dont appear as often as militia.In AOM cavalry in general is overpowered.It can be seen among 3 greek civs. Mojo14
Mortal posted 29 August 2003 01:15 PM EDT (US) 6 / 19 I wish the bonus for Zeus, Hades and Poseidon were nicer so it would give them each different, but equal strength. Like:Zeus:Gathers favor faster.Infantry 10% cheaper.Infantry 10% faster.Military Academy 10% cheaper.Hero's have a 5-10% chance of bolting an enemy unit around them.Hades:Buildings stronger.Archers 10% cheaper.Archers 10% more attack.Archery Range 10% cheaper.Units have a chance of turning into shades when they die. I think that this bonus should be made so the shades appear right where the unit died.Poseidon:Gets militia.Calvary 10% cheaper.Stables 10% cheaper.Reduced market buy/sell rates.Dock 10% cheaper + gets re-spawning Hippocampus./-Mojo14-\
You go to the editor
But you neva design nuttin'
You been designing a long time
And you ain't got nuttin'[This message has been edited by Mojo14 (edited 08-29-2003 @ 01:16 PM).] futurehermit
Mortal posted 29 August 2003 04:45 PM EDT (US) 7 / 19 First of all, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't call me a cavalry-spammer when I have mentioned nothing about that nor have you seen me play. I've talked with 2k+ players who agree that Zeus is not an infantry civilization before at least hitting heroic.Now, to reply to comments:"Why is Athena not bad:1) She has one of the best classical myth units in the game, they are pop effective, though one does falls really fast to a couple of hersirs, but not to one."Unupgraded minotaur is the 4th toughest unit in straight-up combat (Loses to valk, einherjar, cyclops). If you want to talk upgrade then you would either have to factor in that cost or give other MUs an upgrade as well. Beating up on ranged units defeats the purpose. With a meatshield, a centaur could have its way with a minotaur before it could reach the centaur. So I wouldn't say one of the best since it can't be fairly compared vs. ranged units or raiders like the anubite and it doesn't fair well against the other melee classical units.2) Aegies shield is not a useless tech, especially for Zeus, with .5 faster hops, plus more piece armor, & copper shields, your hops will get to their archers in time before getting sluaghter. 300w 25 fav. When exactly would you suggest researching this tech? Likely late heroic when you have enough hoplites on the field for this tech to be effective. If you say classical, you haven't played greek because you can't afford to gather and spend 300 w in classical in this way. If we agree mid-to-late heroic, then it begs the question as to whether athena is effective as a classical minor god choice. When you factor in the cost, as well as the fact that it only effects one unit you will see this tech is not cost-effective.Take for example playing vs. norse in heroic. They have jarls, huskarls, and taxmen. Is aegis shield helpful? No, don't get this tech vs. norse. What about vs. eggy? Axemen, slingers, and say maybe camels. Is aegis shield helpful? No, this tech has not much use vs. eggy. Best case scenario is vs. greek when you face toxotes, and particularly hades toxotes. So you may get this tech vs. 1/3 of your opponents and only if you have enough of one particular troop on the field to make it cost-effective. Not that great.Now you may argue that it helps vs. buildings; however, you first must make it through the opposing army if you are to take down their buildings so this must be taken into account. If aegis shield/sarissa benefited hypaspists as well you would have more reason to research these techs because it is not as odd to have a large enough mass of hoplites AND hypaspists on the field to make the techs more cost-effective (esp vs. norse in heroic --> hypaspists)3) Sarissa is a good tech against cav, it gives your hops more hack armor, making them less vulnerable to hack attacks. That plus copper armor give the oplite a pretty decent hack armor.No question. I would say sarissa is much better than aegis shield, more cost effective and more useful, especially vs. norse opponents who only really deal hack dmg. I don't have too much of a beef with sarissa other than the fact that it should benefit hypaspists as well because only benefitting one unit really lowers the potential range of effect of these techs. Say for example, what % of your army will be hoplites? This is the % effectiveness of the tech.4) As Hades Athena is not a viable choice, but as Zeus it is, cause all her upgrades affect your hoplites, thus they last longer, & remember Zeus infantry bonus against buildingsInfantry bonus vs. buildings is no big deal. I've played approx. 200 games with Zeus if you have similar experience give me some of your nicks and I will agree with you. In few cases will you be able to take down a lot of buildings with hoplites. It is a good idea in theory but not in practice. Only when massed in heroic vs. an opponent that makes few counters will you have this opportunity.5) Restoration can help you retain a tc, survive a siege, etc. Though Cease fire is betterYeah, and I can think of others that are better as well. I can live with restoration but really think that its effectiveness comes mostly into play in heroic (you see a theme here?)Apollo1) Temple of Healing is the only way Greeks get healing in 1 vs 1 games. That is unless you capture a healing spring.
It's in no way bad, besides it's fairly cheap, 150 gold,20 favor?, come on. As Zeus, favor never is a trouble.Yeah, it's reasonably priced, I'll give you that. The problem is that it's not a practical tech. How long do I have to stand my army in one place before it's healed? Can I wait that long before you attack again? Even with multiple temples how long until my 20+ units are healed? Imo, it's only good for healing MUs but even then I would question how practical this is.2) Oracle does help you see whats comming wa ahead of you. Combine that with the pelt of argus relic, & you'e've got yourself in every soldier a movile lightnouse.Well, how often will I get that relic? I wouldn't call it a mobile lighthouse. It's "useful" but comparatively to other techs I wouldn't argue that this tech is amazing. Decent, but again not overly practical.3) Sun Ray is not a terrible tech, nor expensive, 200 gold, come on, 40 favor is a little over the edge, but with Zeus that tech is available. FU Zeus toxotes with Sun Ray do 11 pierce damage, you'll need taht to chew up myrmidons counters.A little over the edge is maybe an understatement when u're supposedly saving for those MUs that the tech benefits. And no you don't need it to chew up myrm counters. Tox do fine without this help (speaking from a fair amount of experience). I think that if this tech was lowered in favour cost by say 10-15 it would be a bit better. It's not really anything individually for apollo that makes him bad, but collectively he has not much to offer (comparatively) to a Zeus player.4) Underground Passage is indeed far less powerful than bronze, but it isn't useful.Well, you said it yourself, it isn't useful. J/K. It has its place, mostly in team games, but like you said, compared to bronze not that good. I'd also take curse with aphro's techs and mu before uwp with apollo's techs and mu. Like I said it's the collective of apollo that makes him much less appealing."OK, there are maybe reasons why you never choose Athena or Apollo vs Hermes & Dyonissus(spell?), one o those is because you're a cav spammer, or you're just too lazy to optimize your eco in order to use hop/tox"Well, I wouldn't call myself a cav-spammer I'll leave that to the norse However, if you actually play Zeus/Hades at 1700+ you will see that it's not just "optimizing your eco" to make hop/tox. You can do that. It's that Athena's techs are not cost-effective techs to supplement this combo in classical. Like I said before, heroic may be better, but it again puts into question Athena's usefulness as a classical goddess.Cav-spamming also has nothing to do with Apollo's deficiencies as well. It has to do with how pragmatic his techs, mu, and godpower are."There is also something Zeus has that the other 2 Greek Gods don't have, & that is a unique minor god choice. Why Hera is not a bad choice.1) Lightning Storm may give you that necessary help to win a game.2) Her myth tech improves your myth units attack, no other myth tech around compares to that.3) Her myth unit has a one hit kill special, & fu has 19 pierce attack, that's great.The god choices depend on your style, personally, as Zeus I don't use cav unless I'm being rushed by a Hades who masses archers, which rarely happens.If you wanna spam cavarly, play Poseidon."Did I say I was a cav spammer? Anywhere? Did I say Hera was bad? Anywhere? Hera is the reason why Zeus is the best greek god in mythic. Last time I checked this was about Classical and Heroic minor god choices."You've been saying this for months now, and it always makes me cringe. Athena rules for zeus. Minos are zeus' biggest benefit, he can afford to actually make them, and 1 unupgraded mino can beat 5 RCs. I'll definetly grant that restoration sucks and that the two hoplite techs are WAY overpriced. Compared to the exact same norse techs that affect everything and cost 1/3 what athenas cost.
I wrote an article on the comparison of god advantages to relics in the game, and it clearly showed which god advantages were better than others. The jist of it is that cheaper cav wasn't that big a deal (there are relics that do the same to other mainline units), but that militia was a big deal (imagine a relic granting that ability).Aside from militia, the real problem is inherent to infantry. Obviously cavalry rules the game, for many reasons including ability to raid, being more cost efficient in classical, and are barely countered by thier counters (infantry die miserably to thier counters). Since it is a game of cavalry at this point (hopefully changing in xpac somehow), posieden is simply 10 percent better for all intents and purposes."Well, all cringing aside, if you go heavy on minos you've decided to win the fight in classical, which is of course a possibility with massed-minos. I'm not saying the mino is bad. I'm just saying that it isn't as good as most other MUs at what it's supposed to do (see above). Unupgraded they also only have 300hps which isn't really that much when you compare it to some of the other melee MUs. The main problem with athena is the techs and i think we agree with that so moving on...I'd def agree that possy's militia is a huge advantage, esp when combined with the offensive adv given by cheaper stables, cheaper hippikons, and lure. Possy can afford to be aggressive as long as he builds a base with good defens