VAXstation 4000/90 help
John Klos
I am soliciting help with a problem with a VAXstation 4000/90. I got it a
while ago and I should've tested it extensively right after I got it (so I
could've returned it if it was bad), but work kept me too busy, so I'm
trying now.
When I turn it on, I get all eight LEDs on at the same time for a half a
second, then I get 7, 6, 5, 4, and 1, then nothing. I get nothing on the
serial console. If I press the halt button, the LEDs change to 7, 6, 5, 4,
3, 1, and 0. These codes aren't specifically mentioned in the DEC Service
Information manual for the 4000/90.
I tried swapping known good memory with a 4000/60 which works fine, plus
I've tried removing the video card, but nothing changed. I also put in a
brand new real time clock chip.
Does anyone know what kind of problem I might be experiencing?
Thanks,
John Klos
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Johnny Billquist
> Hi,
>
> I am soliciting help with a problem with a VAXstation 4000/90. I got it
> a while ago and I should've tested it extensively right after I got it
> (so I could've returned it if it was bad), but work kept me too busy, so
> I'm trying now.
>
> When I turn it on, I get all eight LEDs on at the same time for a half a
> second, then I get 7, 6, 5, 4, and 1, then nothing. I get nothing on the
> serial console. If I press the halt button, the LEDs change to 7, 6, 5,
> 4, 3, 1, and 0. These codes aren't specifically mentioned in the DEC
> Service Information manual for the 4000/90.
>
> I tried swapping known good memory with a 4000/60 which works fine, plus
> I've tried removing the video card, but nothing changed. I also put in a
> brand new real time clock chip.
>
> Does anyone know what kind of problem I might be experiencing?
The obvious first question is if you changed the switch to use a serial
console, or if it is in fact talking to your graphics subsystem?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
John Klos
> console, or if it is in fact talking to your graphics subsystem?
I wish it were that simple. The S3 switch is up, and I even tried toggling
it to make sure it wasn't half set.
I'd love to find a working 4000/90 or 4000/96 for bulk package builds.
Just getting a bulk build started takes about a month on a 4000/60!
John
Johnny Billquist
>> The obvious first question is if you changed the switch to use a
>> serial console, or if it is in fact talking to your graphics subsystem?
>
> toggling it to make sure it wasn't half set.
Hum. I'd check the switch for a bad connection or something then. If the
LEDs are changing, there should be output on the console.
If not, then it's either directed to the wrong console, or else you have
a broken serial port.
(I assume you are using the right port on the VAX, that your cable is
ok, and that you have a terminal connected that aren't messing you up
with some weird opinions (or a computer with some program connecting you
to a serial port).
There is a lot of serial port debugging that can be done, but it is so
much depending on what you observe, and so on, that it's hard to write a
general checkup.
> I'd love to find a working 4000/90 or 4000/96 for bulk package builds.
> Just getting a bulk build started takes about a month on a 4000/60!
Tell me about it... :-(
John Klos
> are changing, there should be output on the console.
The LEDs only change once, and only once again if the halt button is
pressed.
> If not, then it's either directed to the wrong console, or else you have a
> broken serial port.
> (I assume you are using the right port on the VAX, that your cable is ok, and
> that you have a terminal connected that aren't messing you up with some weird
> opinions (or a computer with some program connecting you to a serial port).
It's the same setup I use for one of my 4000/60, so I know the machine I'm
running cu on is fine and I know the cable is good.
> There is a lot of serial port debugging that can be done, but it is so much
> depending on what you observe, and so on, that it's hard to write a general
> checkup.
Part of the problem is that I don't get anything at all on the serial...
Thanks,
John
Johnny Billquist
>> Hum. I'd check the switch for a bad connection or something then. If
>> the LEDs are changing, there should be output on the console.
>
> The LEDs only change once, and only once again if the halt button is
> pressed.
I believe that is to be expected.
Or did I missunderstand something...? I thought you said they did a
"countdown"?
>> If not, then it's either directed to the wrong console, or else you
>> have a broken serial port.
>> (I assume you are using the right port on the VAX, that your cable is
>> ok, and that you have a terminal connected that aren't messing you up
>> with some weird opinions (or a computer with some program connecting
>> you to a serial port).
>
> It's the same setup I use for one of my 4000/60, so I know the machine
> I'm running cu on is fine and I know the cable is good.
That is good to know.
>> There is a lot of serial port debugging that can be done, but it is so
>> much depending on what you observe, and so on, that it's hard to write
>> a general checkup.
>
> Part of the problem is that I don't get anything at all on the serial...
So I'd break out the oscilloscope and check the wires... You should have
a minus on the Tx from the VAX, which should flutter when it transmits.
Also check the DTR.
Jan-Benedict Glaw
>
> I'd love to find a working 4000/90 or 4000/96 for bulk package builds.
> Just getting a bulk build started takes about a month on a 4000/60!
I just looked into the basement...
1x 4000/96
3x 4000/90A
4x 4000/90
2x 4000/60
(And a good stack of other machines, but I guess these are the most
interesting boxes speed-wise.)
They should all be working (all machines were checked before I put them
there), but I don't know how much RAM they have. If in doubt, two
half-filled machines would probably give one filled...
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbg...@lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
the second :
Matt Dainty
> >Hum. I'd check the switch for a bad connection or something then. If the
> >LEDs are changing, there should be output on the console.
>
> The LEDs only change once, and only once again if the halt button is
> pressed.
I haven't powered my 4000/90 up in a while, but I do remember the LEDs
changed more than once and I got a little warble from the internal speaker
before it gives you a prompt on the console.
Matt
Jan-Benedict Glaw
> On Sun, 2010-11-28 16:49:46 +0000, John Klos <jo...@ziaspace.com> wrote:
> > I'd love to find a working 4000/90 or 4000/96 for bulk package builds.
> > Just getting a bulk build started takes about a month on a 4000/60!
>
> I just looked into the basement...
>
> 1x 4000/96
> 3x 4000/90A
> 4x 4000/90
> 2x 4000/60
>
> (And a good stack of other machines, but I guess these are the most
> interesting boxes speed-wise.)
Seems this was misonderstood by a lot of people. I am *not* to give
the machines away physically, they're also not to be scrapped.
I worked hard to get me a nice collection of different VAX models (and
some speedy boxes, too) to be a build farm for Debian The Other Day.
Right now, Linux isn't that far (and it's still a *very* long way), so
my offer is: I am willing to let these machines run and eg. give
NetBSD a home to build packages.
Caveats:
* I only have RFC1918 addresses and (as a regular DSL user) get a
different public IP address every day. (Though I'm a DynDNS user,
so there's a stable name.)
* Once the machines are set-up, I'd provide a ssh hopper box (along
with serial access) and/or IP port forwarding on high ports to the
NetBSD machines.
* Bandwidth is limited (it always is!), but traffic is flat.
* If they're spinning for more that a day every now and then, it
would be nice to get some bucks for electricity.
* As these machines don't have a lot (if at all) HDD space, I'd
probably provide NFS.
One person asked for (one of) the machines to do graphic hacking. If
anybody is interested to /lend/ a box for a specific project and for
limited time, I'd do that, too. But in the long term, I'd like to
/keep/ those machines, not to /scrap/ them.
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbg...@lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: Arroganz verkürzt fruchtlose Gespräche.
the second : -- Jan-Benedict Glaw
John Klos
Yes. The kits are the same part number from Digital, and a few other
places mention that they're compatible, too. Some model or another
requires sets of four, and the 4000/60 only requires sets, but I tried a
bank of four of the same size just in case.
> If you have a keyboard and monitor, does the graphics console show
> anything? That could at least verify that everything other than the serial
> port is working.
Nah. I have to buy one of those IBM 3W (whatever that's called - I
forgot) to BNC cables. Apparently two of the colors are switched, but who
cares?
I don't even know what the specs on the keyboard are...
John
Johnny Billquist
>> Is the memory compatable with the 4000/60? [I've never actually tried.]
>
> Yes. The kits are the same part number from Digital, and a few other
> places mention that they're compatible, too. Some model or another
> requires sets of four, and the 4000/60 only requires sets, but I tried a
> bank of four of the same size just in case.
What do the LEDs show, btw? It would perhaps seem as if your machine
isn't really coming up. Memory could be the problem, I don't know... But
an error code on the LEDs would be interesting.
>> If you have a keyboard and monitor, does the graphics console show
>> anything? That could at least verify that everything other than the
>> serial port is working.
>
> Nah. I have to buy one of those IBM 3W (whatever that's called - I
> forgot) to BNC cables. Apparently two of the colors are switched, but
> who cares?
SPeaking of which... I'd like to get my hands on such a cable as well.
Anyone know where to buy them?
> I don't even know what the specs on the keyboard are...
Normal LK201 or whatever, I believe. Any DEC keyboard with a 4-pin
modular phone connector.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
John Klos
> really coming up. Memory could be the problem, I don't know... But an error
> code on the LEDs would be interesting.
From earlier:
When I turn it on, I get all eight LEDs on at the same time for a half a
second, then I get 7, 6, 5, 4, and 1, then nothing (happens). I get
nothing on the serial console. If I press the halt button, the LEDs change
to 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 1, and 0. These codes aren't specifically mentioned in
the DEC Service Information manual for the 4000/90.
> SPeaking of which... I'd like to get my hands on such a cable as well. Anyone
> know where to buy them?
Here's one seller:
>> I don't even know what the specs on the keyboard are...
>
> Normal LK201 or whatever, I believe. Any DEC keyboard with a 4-pin modular
> phone connector.
What I mean is that I don't know if that's an IBM AT or PS/2 type
interface which can be used via a PIC translator or something like that,
or something different. But now that you tell me that an LK201 will work,
I see this:
http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/lk201.html
Hmmm... Maybe I'll get one as a present...
John
Johnny Billquist
>> What do the LEDs show, btw? It would perhaps seem as if your machine
>> isn't really coming up. Memory could be the problem, I don't know...
>> But an error code on the LEDs would be interesting.
>
> From earlier:
>
> When I turn it on, I get all eight LEDs on at the same time for a half a
> second, then I get 7, 6, 5, 4, and 1, then nothing (happens). I get
> nothing on the serial console. If I press the halt button, the LEDs
> change to 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 1, and 0. These codes aren't specifically
> mentioned in the DEC Service Information manual for the 4000/90.
So it stops at 1? Or do you mean it becomes dark? And by "7,6,5,4,1" do
you mean that one LED at the time is lit, the LEDs being the ones marked
with those numbers, or do you mean that the binary value shown is those
values?
>> SPeaking of which... I'd like to get my hands on such a cable as well.
>> Anyone know where to buy them?
>
> Here's one seller:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-58F2903-3W3-ADAPTER-3-BNC-RGB-VIDEO-CABLE-/380112073358?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588071f28e#ht_500wt_911
Hmm. Thanks. Will check this out more...
>>> I don't even know what the specs on the keyboard are...
>>
>> Normal LK201 or whatever, I believe. Any DEC keyboard with a 4-pin
>> modular phone connector.
>
> What I mean is that I don't know if that's an IBM AT or PS/2 type
> interface which can be used via a PIC translator or something like that,
> or something different. But now that you tell me that an LK201 will
> work, I see this:
>
> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/lk201.html
>
> Hmmm... Maybe I'll get one as a present...
PC keyboards... I doubt you'd even want to try one of those, even if you
could locate a converter. You do understand that the keyboards are
totally different from PC ones?
It's more than just a simple case of shifting some wires around. Totally
different protocols, and capabilities. But as always, a converter is
always possible to build, and maybe one do exist. I've not seen one, though.
But LK201 keyboards are not uncommon, so it should be fairly easy to get
one. DEC used them for all terminals and computers of the era.
SO, the same keyboards (or compatible) are used for VT220, VT240, VT241,
VT320, VT330, VT340, VT420, DEC Professional, DECmate, DEC Rainbow, all
VAXstations of the time, as well as DECstations (MIPS based) and
whatever other special equipment DEC made.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
John Klos
> mean that one LED at the time is lit, the LEDs being the ones marked with
> those numbers, or do you mean that the binary value shown is those values?
They light up together.
> PC keyboards... I doubt you'd even want to try one of those, even if you
> could locate a converter. You do understand that the keyboards are totally
> different from PC ones?
Yes, but since I see that they can be had for $30 USD or so on eBay, I
guess I won't worry about an adapter. It's not like the prices for Amiga
keyboards, for instance.
> different protocols, and capabilities. But as always, a converter is always
> possible to build, and maybe one do exist. I've not seen one, though.
>
> But LK201 keyboards are not uncommon, so it should be fairly easy to get one.
> DEC used them for all terminals and computers of the era.
> SO, the same keyboards (or compatible) are used for VT220, VT240, VT241,
> VT320, VT330, VT340, VT420, DEC Professional, DECmate, DEC Rainbow, all
> VAXstations of the time, as well as DECstations (MIPS based) and whatever
> other special equipment DEC made.
Good to know that getting one keyboard will cover many uses.
Thanks!
Johnny Billquist
>> So it stops at 1? Or do you mean it becomes dark? And by "7,6,5,4,1"
>> do you mean that one LED at the time is lit, the LEDs being the ones
>> marked with those numbers, or do you mean that the binary value shown
>> is those values?
>
You mean that 7,6,5,4,1 are all lit up together, and nothing more
happens? That would be read out as 0xF2 if we read it binary (expressed
as hex)?
So, you'd see 0xF2 and 0xF3? Seems to be stopping at the end of the self
test before console comes to life then...
Could be a bad console selector switch in that case maybe. I'll
experiment on my machine later tonight if I have time.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Michael L. Hitch
>> Is the memory compatable with the 4000/60? [I've never actually tried.]
>
> Yes. The kits are the same part number from Digital, and a few other places
> mention that they're compatible, too. Some model or another requires sets of
> four, and the 4000/60 only requires sets, but I tried a bank of four of the
> same size just in case.
I had always assumed the memory was different - based on the VAX
hardware reference pages on www.netbsd.org.
That gives the memory part numbers for the 4000/60 as:
Min 8MB, Max 104MB, installed in pairs, MS44L-AA 4 MB parity, MS44-DA 32 MB parity
And for the 4000/90A as:
MS44L-BC 16MB parity, MS44-DC 64 MB parity
The memory information for the 4000/90 and 4000/96 didn't have any part
numbers, but should be the same as the 4000/90A.
If I get a chance, I'll try some 4000/60 memory in either the 4000/90 or
4000/90A and see if it works.
--
Michael L. Hitch mhi...@montana.edu
Computer Consultant
Information Technology Center
Montana State University Bozeman, MT USA
Jochen Kunz
Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote:
[Converting a PS/2 Keyboard to LK201 protocol]
> It's more than just a simple case of shifting some wires around. Totally
> different protocols, and capabilities. But as always, a converter is
> always possible to build, and maybe one do exist. I've not seen one, though.
This has been done already:
http://www.kbdbabel.org/
Parts to build a 3W3 cable are available from
http://www.reichelt.de/
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
Michael L. Hitch
> If I get a chance, I'll try some 4000/60 memory in either the 4000/90 or
> 4000/90A and see if it works.
OK, I tried with 4 4MB modules I pulled out of a 4000/60, and they
worked in the 4000/90.
Which slots did you put your memory in? I noticed that my memory was
in a somewhat odd configuration. It had 4 modules, with slots 1, 3, 6,
and 8 populated. [I.e. the outside slots had memory, the next slots in
were empty, the next populated, and the middle 2 empty.]
Ah, found the slot labeling on the system board on the right edge of the
memory connectors. 0A, 0B, 0C, and 0D where the ones populated on my
system. 4 modules can be installed in either the 0X or the 1X slots.
I also verified that without any memory, the LEDS show 0xF2 and it
sits there with no other action or output. With working memory present,
the LEDS start with 0xFC, runs through a number of other combinations, and
ends with 0xF3 displaying when it's at the ROM prompt. This would seem to
indicate that you don't have working memory.
John Klos
> I also verified that without any memory, the LEDS show 0xF2 and it
> sits there with no other action or output. With working memory present,
> the LEDS start with 0xFC, runs through a number of other combinations, and
> ends with 0xF3 displaying when it's at the ROM prompt. This would seem to
> indicate that you don't have working memory.
This helped me narrow things down. I tried various combinations until I
looked very carefully at both the memory SIMMs and the motherboard and
noticed a strange fuzz which looked a little bit like how circuit boards
look when a battery has leaked and has caused corrosion. I cleaned both
the SIMM which had it as well as the motherboard slot, looked for anything
which might've caused it (leaky capacitor, for instance), but I couldn't
find anything, so I put everything back and got blinky lights, then the
tones that play after several minutes!
5 MEM OK
32MB 0A,0B,0C,0D=4MB, 1E,1F,1G,1H=4MB
Next... Does anyone know what this error means?
2 LCSPX ?? 001 0480
Highres 66Hz - 8 Plane 4Mpixel FB - V1.0
...
>>> T 2
| |
###
?? 001 2 LCSPX 0480
84 FAIL
>>> show error
?? 001 2 LCSPX 01E0
015 01E1 00FC1503 0054C797 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
I'm not using the video display, but it'd be good to know since I'd like
to use it someday... The manual seems to say something about the DAC, but
I can't find the specific error which corresponds to this. Also, the LEDs
show 0010 0111, which isn't even listed in the error code list for the
LCSPX. Any ideas?
Thanks,
John
Michael L. Hitch
> Next... Does anyone know what this error means?
>
> 2 LCSPX ?? 001 0480
> Highres 66Hz - 8 Plane 4Mpixel FB - V1.0
>
> ...
>
>>>> T 2
> | |
> ###
> ?? 001 2 LCSPX 0480
>
>
> 84 FAIL
>>>> show error
>
> ?? 001 2 LCSPX 01E0
> 015 01E1 00FC1503 0054C797 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
I think the graphics board can detect the presence of a monitor, and
will show an error if there is no monitor connected.
John Klos
>> Highres 66Hz - 8 Plane 4Mpixel FB - V1.0
> I think the graphics board can detect the presence of a monitor, and will
> show an error if there is no monitor connected.
Whew! I read something about it being a DAC error, and I suppose the DAC
would have the circuitry to detect the connection of a monitor.
Does anyone know of a way to have the VAX skip this error and boot
automatically anyway?
Just for everyone's general information, a 4000/90 won't boot NetBSD (5.1,
generic kernel) without the graphics card installed. I got a kernel panic
when I booted without the card, and while I'm sure I can just make a
custom kernel to get around it, it might be good for others to know.
Thanks,
John
arca...@iee.org
> Does anyone know of a way to have the VAX skip this error and boot
> automatically anyway?
You can try flicking the switch at the front to tell it to run headless.
That must work - mine boots OpenVMS that way just by being powered up.
> Just for everyone's general information, a 4000/90 won't boot NetBSD
> (5.1, generic kernel) without the graphics card installed. I got a
> kernel panic
> when I booted without the card, and while I'm sure I can just make a
> custom kernel to get around it, it might be good for others to know.
Even with the switch in the "I'm a VAXserver not a VAXstation" position?
Antonio
arca...@iee.org
John Klos
>> automatically anyway?
>
> You can try flicking the switch at the front to tell it to run headless.
> That must work - mine boots OpenVMS that way just by being powered up.
I forgot that when I was trying to diagnose the doing-nothing-at-all
problem I had toggled that switch.
>> Just for everyone's general information, a 4000/90 won't boot NetBSD
>> (5.1, generic kernel) without the graphics card installed. I got a
>> kernel panic when I booted without the card, and while I'm sure I can
>> just make a custom kernel to get around it, it might be good for others
>> to know.
>
> Even with the switch in the "I'm a VAXserver not a VAXstation" position?
That hadn't even occured to me. I'll ty it. I figure if it's just doing
bulk builds, it doesn't need the extra power draw and heat.
Thanks,
John