CUDA under FreeBSD

[Carmel NY]

Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under
FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting supported shortly?

Thanks!

--
Carmel

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

[gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu]

On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote:
> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me the real
> reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under

Arrogance would be my guess.

> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting
> supported shortly?

Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...).

This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations.

Valeri

>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Carmel
>
> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
> not sure about the former.
>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
_______________________________________________
freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org"

[Shane Ambler]

On 04/12/2017 21:19, gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote:
>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me
>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under
>
> Arrogance would be my guess.

The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be
able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps.

>> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting
>> supported shortly?
>
> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just
> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and
> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much
> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...).
>
> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations.

I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev
at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical
reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it.
Still hasn't helped any.


--
FreeBSD - the place to B...Software Developing

Shane Ambler

[Carmel NY]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 2:53 AM, Shane Ambler stated:

> On 04/12/2017 21:19, gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote:
> > On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote:
> >> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me the
> >> real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under
> >
> > Arrogance would be my guess.
>
> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be able to
> run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps.
>
> >> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting
> >> supported shortly?
> >
> > Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just not
> > to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and unwillingness
> > to disclose details of their hardware was always much worse than that
> > of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...).
> >
> > This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations.

Personally, I have always considered Nvidia products to be superior.

> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev at
> one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical
> reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it.
> Still hasn't helped any.

Interesting. I was not aware of that. It would seem to me that there should be more of an
concerted effort to get this issue resolved.

--
Carmel

[Jan Beich]

Shane Ambler <Fre...@ShaneWare.Biz> writes:

> On 04/12/2017 21:19, gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote:
>>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me
>>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under
>>
>> Arrogance would be my guess.
>
> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be
> able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps.

Modern CUDA toolkit is 64bit but runtime only works on 32bit (bug 206711).
Building as -m32 is probably still possible but may not fit all workloads
nor run as fast.

>
>>> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting
>>> supported shortly?
>>
>> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just
>> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and
>> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much
>> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...).
>>
>> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations.
>
> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev
> at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical
> reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it.
> Still hasn't helped any.

Just like Vulkan, just like KMS, just like encoding/capture acceleration.
NVIDIA always conveniently forgets about FreeBSD. However, the ailment
isn't really specific to NVIDIA but affects most binary blob vendors.
For one, Widevine CDM is maintained by Google but EME itself was pushed
to W3C by Netflix, a FreeBSD vendor which conveniently forgot a browser
can run on FreeBSD.

[Baho Utot]

What is FreeBSD market share?
Could be the market share of FreeBSD is so small it is not worth their time?
Maybe the FreeBSD developers are too abrasive?
Or maybe some other reason?
Linux is everywhere so maybe that is why Linux gets all the glory?

[blubee blubeeme]

On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Baho Utot <baho...@columbus.rr.com>
wrote:

> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe
> @freebsd.org"
>

NVIDIA doesn't forget about FreeBSD, there are devs over there that uses
it. The issue is FreeBSD didn't have enough devs willing or able to do the
work necessary to get the graphics ported in a way that would bring
interest to this platform.

The linuxkpi stuff is cute but it's not a real long term solution. The
whole DRM/KMS needs to be ported to FreeBSD and have a few major titles
over here; Steam for example, that would get people's attention.

It's something that will get done but it needs some time.

@Baho
Maybe if you spent more time providing solutions and doing productive work
you wouldn't have to be feeling like nobody wants you around.

How does your answer help anyone overcoming the obstacle of getting CUDA on
FreeBSD?

[Polytropon]

FreeBSD has no market share, as it does not participate in
market measurements such as "units sold" or "licenses obtained".
You cannot - I repeat: you _cannot_ tell the number of FreeBSD
installations.

You can hardly guess it.

The reason is simple: As I said, FreeBSD does not count "units
sold" or "licenses obtained", so all the installations made do
not increase any numbers. Additionally, FreeBSD is being used
in non-PC and non-server systems, such as embedded solutions,
appliances, routers, switches, firewalls, IoT, and so on. You
usually don't even _know_ if FreeBSD is running on a specific
device you are using.

The termini technic you are searching for are:

1. usage share = how many installations are present, how many
people are using it, etc.

2. mind share = how many people or organisations are aware of
FreeBSD existing

Those are numbers you also can hardly guess, and they are still
much more significant (especially no. 1) than market share.

> Could be the market share of FreeBSD is so small it is not worth their time?

The usage share (if you want to understand this as market share,
or at least as an approximation) is not significant for the
manufacturers producing those devices - and supplying the
corresponding software. So it's simply not worth their time
as it doesn't generate revenue that justifies that effort.

> Maybe the FreeBSD developers are too abrasive?

I don't think so. Typically developers invest their time in
getting hardware running when the required specifications and
documentation is made available, and some devices even get
reverse-engineered support.

> Or maybe some other reason?
> Linux is everywhere so maybe that is why Linux gets all the glory?

That is quite possible. Top computers are running Linux, top
companies are using Linux. Linux runs PCs, servers, peripherial
devices and appliances, so you could even say: Linux runs the
whole Internet... so, yes, it actually is everywhere.



--
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...

[JD]

It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers
will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small
installed base.

[Steve O'Hara-Smith]

On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700
JD <jd1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers
> will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small
> installed base.

People have been saying things like that about FreeBSD for the last
twenty years, it's still going strong.

Developers spend time on FreeBSD because they want FreeBSD, they
don't really care how many other people want it as well so long as there
are enough people interested in developing it to keep it going and
improving.

Companies like nVidia do care about market share, they know that if
they provide Linux support it will make a noticeable difference to their
sales but FreeBSD support probably won't.

It seems very likely (but impossible to tell for sure) that the
installed base of FreeBSD is larger today than it was when ftp.cdrom.com
held the record for the busiest ftp site a couple of decades ago. However
the installed base of Linux is far larger than it was then (larger than the
installed base of any other OS if you include Android as a flavour of
Linux).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith <st...@sohara.org>

[blubee blubeeme]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith <st...@sohara.org>
wrote:

> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-
> unsub...@freebsd.org"
>

NVidia just Loves Open Source, even Linux:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oniC93r2o9I

So much they wrap windows binaries and toss them off to Linux. Ask those
Linux Nouveau guys just how much love NVidia shows them.

You have two options, fix it or let it be. What's with kicking up all the
dust? Can't fix it, go do something productive and learn.

[Baho Utot]

exactly my point.  Plus the way development is proceeding it make for
sure that freebsd will bite the dust.  It really does not offer anything
that other os already have

[Baho Utot]

On 12/10/2017 3:27 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700
> JD <jd1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers
>> will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small
>> installed base.
> People have been saying things like that about FreeBSD for the last
> twenty years, it's still going strong.
>
> Developers spend time on FreeBSD because they want FreeBSD, they
> don't really care how many other people want it as well so long as there
> are enough people interested in developing it to keep it going and
> improving.

Except for the fact that the devs are always complaining about not
having enough people to do the work.  That is why the posts almost
always say patches are welcome or something simular.

> Companies like nVidia do care about market share, they know that if
> they provide Linux support it will make a noticeable difference to their
> sales but FreeBSD support probably won't.
>
> It seems very likely (but impossible to tell for sure) that the
> installed base of FreeBSD is larger today than it was when ftp.cdrom.com
> held the record for the busiest ftp site a couple of decades ago. However
> the installed base of Linux is far larger than it was then (larger than the
> installed base of any other OS if you include Android as a flavour of
> Linux).
>

_______________________________________________

[Matthias Apitz]

$ grep baho .spamassassin/user_prefs
blacklist_from baho...@columbus.rr.com


--
Matthias Apitz, ✉ gu...@unixarea.de, ⌂ http://www.unixarea.de/ 📱 +49-176-38902045
Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub

[Gordon Ewasiuk via freebsd-questions]

On Sun, 10 Dec 2017, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700
> JD <jd1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers
>> will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small
>> installed base.
>
> People have been saying things like that about FreeBSD for the last
> twenty years, it's still going strong.

What's that old joke...

"Netcraft confirms FreeBSD is dying!"

Yet, three of the top 10 most reliable web hosts, according to Netcraft,
run FreeBSD as of Nov 2017.

People have been saying FreeBSD is dying for ages now. Yet somehow, all
these new features keep turning up in new releases and those brilliant
FreeBSD developers keep delivering the goods time and time again.

Also, consider that we've seen spinoffs from FreeBSD like the robust
pfSense firewall and the feature-rich FreeNAS storage operating system.

All this angst is much ado about nothing. There's a place for FreeBSD in
our world.

-Gordon

[Baho Utot]

On 12/10/2017 3:52 PM, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> $ grep baho .spamassassin/user_prefs
> blacklist_from baho...@columbus.rr.com
>
>

Thank you I will not have to listen to your nonsense

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Tue, December 5, 2017 4:04 am, Carmel NY wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 2:53 AM, Shane Ambler stated:
>> On 04/12/2017 21:19, gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote:
>> > On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote:
>> >> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me the
real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under
>> >
>> > Arrogance would be my guess.
>> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be
able to
>> run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps.
>> >> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting
supported shortly?
>> >
>> > Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just
not
>> > to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and unwillingness
to disclose details of their hardware was always much worse than that
of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...).
>> >
>> > This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations.
>
> Personally, I have always considered Nvidia products to be superior.

Well, this is just your subjective opinion opposing my subjective opinion.
With all due respect.

I have seen nvidia chips giving artifacts (probably after mild overheat,
really just mild). I can not compare some product (to consider it superior
to another) if I can not use that product fully under variety of systems
_I_ use. And the last is true about nvidia video chips. As opposed to
variety of their competitors.

At some point Apple agreed with me (well, of course independent on me made
up their opinion ;-). There were infamous MacBook Pro 15 inch made by
Apple somewhere around 2012. These contained discrete video chip by NVIDIA
(in addition to integrated on intel CPU substrate... I'm lying, it was
inside CPU case, but etched on different substrate...). Anyway, there was
some crap about that NVIDIA chip, so Apple didn't manage to make later
releases of MacOS work with later hardware and with that 2012 MacBook Pro,
kernel just crashed inside NVIDIA kernel module. Apple even had (really
short lived) program of replacing that hardware, realizing that this is
just crap. Program closed very quickly, so only small portion of bad
hardware was actually replaced. My guess is: nvidia decided not to carry
their side of financial losses. After which Apple made good IMHO decision,
and switched over to AMD (which are actually bought out by AMD well known
ATI). Incidentally, way back someone made excellent argument when
comparing ATI with NVIDIA. Here it is: NVIDIA releases new drivers (or
driver updates) almost monthly. ATI takes about half a year to release
driver. From which the conclusion can be made (which I fully agree with)
that ATI thoroughly tests and debugs drivers before releasing them (and
doesn't need to fix crap in the driver soon after release). Not true about
NVIDIA, whose drivers quite likely are much buggier.

Anyway, just my observations, potentially a bit biased by the fact that
NVIDIA discloses much less about chip internals than, say, ATI (hence the
ability or lack of such by open source driver developers to write decent
open source drivers.

>
>> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev
at
>> one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical
reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it.
Still hasn't helped any.
>

Which just confirms that individual developer is likely less arrogant than
a company as a whole.

Well, all I said is just my subjective opinion based on my (by no means
thorough) observations.

Valeri

> Interesting. I was not aware of that. It would seem to me that there
should be more of an
> concerted effort to get this issue resolved.
>
> --
> Carmel
>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[blubee blubeeme]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:32 AM, Valeri Galtsev <gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu>
wrote:

> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-
> unsub...@freebsd.org"
>

Here's a thorough overview of the history of ATI/AMD vs NVIDIA it's a three
part but very good, for those who want to know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j6TiSdKT0A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd1bp9eSfwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE-YM_3YBm0

[Valeri Galtsev]

The only trouble I have with your links above is: you have misrepresented
what they are. They are not overview of history of ATI/AMD vs NVIDIA as
you said. They are very nice NVIDIA commercials.

Valeri

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
_______________________________________________
freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions

To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org"

[blubee blubeeme]

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017, 02:40 Valeri Galtsev <gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu>

I don't see how you could call those nvidia commercials if u actually
listened to the content of the videos and watch nvidia business practices.