Re: who wrote this
eBoundHost: Artur
> specific ("don't put something in the offensive list because you find
> the source offensive"), but at this point the motivation still seems to
> be "I'm scared of reading 'Hitler'", and because of that I am opposed to
> changing the page. Quite frankly, the man's been dead for over fifty
> years. I think we can safely mention his name with reasonable assurance
> that he won't jump out of a dark alley and boogeyman us to death.
You're missing the point. This is about the fact that this content is not
appropriate for the page its listed on, not about any kind of hitlerphobia.
If there was an explanation that we're all for freedom of voice and that
even hitlers quotes will be acceptable, that would be fine. but instead all
we have is that "exceptable content: - hitlers quotes" no explanation, no
commentary.
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Marian Hettwer
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:04:11 -0600, Reid Linnemann <lr...@cs.okstate.edu> wrote:
> Written by eBoundHost: Artur on 11/26/07 10:05>>
>> This has nothing to do with anything that I'm saying. Listen, my
>> grandmother also has some interesting things to say but you don't put
>> her name on the front page of the Fortune program because it's not
>> appropriate. Same thing here. Just not an appropriate forum.
>
> I can understand your point that you'd like the reference to be less
> specific ("don't put something in the offensive list because you find
> the source offensive"), but at this point the motivation still seems to
> be "I'm scared of reading 'Hitler'", and because of that I am opposed to
> changing the page. Quite frankly, the man's been dead for over fifty
> years. I think we can safely mention his name with reasonable assurance
> that he won't jump out of a dark alley and boogeyman us to death.
This thread really has nothing to do with being scared of reading 'Hitler'.
The point is that folks could visit FreeBSD's website, reading "ah, so Hitler is not offensive". Some folks would agree, some would disagree. Why would you like to polarize in the first place?
Second point is, that Hitler is a politicial historical person. FreeBSD has nothing to do with politics or history, so come on and delete that bloody name of the website.
It can't be that hard, eh?
Regards,
Marian
Marian Hettwer
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:51:13 +0100, Dominic Fandrey <LoN_Ka...@gmx.de> wrote:
> eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
>> 2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying
>> to do. I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if
>> that's what the community thinks is appropriate. What I'm suggesting is
>> that we remove his name from the website:
>> (http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to
>> innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and
>> unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of
>> insensitive jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings.
>> ...
>
> Quote from the linked website:
>> If an entry offends more than a couple of FreeBSD committers and does
> not
>> contain any objective poignant historical reference, the entry should be
> in
>> the offensive file.
>
> I'm not a freebsd committer, but I do feel offended by Hitler quotes
> (being
> German that is understandable, I think). And it's unthinkable for me to
> put
> anything he said anywhere else but into offensive.
> Just by being his words a quote is put into an offensive (and not amusing)
> context.
I do agree with this statement above!
Besides I wouldn't like to see the name Hitler on freebsd's website. It just doesn't belong there. Especially when the website is saying, that the quotes are not offensive.
Please remove that entry, at least.
Thanks,
John J Fitzgerald
and forth exchanges? I'm on the freebsd-questions list and it's clogging up
my inbox and has nothing to do with the FreeBSD operating system. I think
most agree the website should be change to exclude the specific reference to
Hitler and I'm going to email the freebsd-www list to see if I can get this
change made, unless someone has a better suggestion on how to get it
changed. Everything else is very OT. Here's one man's plea to stop this
thread now.
-JJF
Thanks,
Marian
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Frank Shute
>
>
<snip>
>
> >
> >You also failed to address most of my points.
>
> Frank, No offense, but who has time to go through all points of every post
> and respond. There was much said here but i want to keep this post on
> topic.
Artur, you shouldn't have kicked a hornet's nest if you aren't
prepared to respond ;)
<snip>
>
> >And you haven't got the right to excise Hitler's name from FreeBSD
> >material. Don't you see the irony in that? When he banned certain
> >artists on the grounds of "decency" just like you're proposing to do.
> >
>
> Two points
>
> 1) first of all, i don't think that freebsd operating system is an
> appropriate forum to express political views. so whether we are for or
> against censorship or democracy or fascism or communism, it really does not
> matter.
chat@ is an appropriate forum to discuss politics as it relates to
FreeBSD and you bought it up in the first place! It's you who wants to
indulge in censorship.
As for your assertion it doesn't matter, it *does* matter. Most people
within this community are against censorship of any form, it goes with
the territory of open source software.
> what matters is how good our coding is, and how appropriate the
> wording on our website. because like it or not, we have to present a
> decent website that does not offend our users and does not make us look bad
> in front of non-users.
We went through this when the new logo was created. One of the reasons
it was created was a result of some stupid people thinking the OS was
to do with satanism (because of the daemon logo). My opinion, is that
if people are that stupid then they don't deserve to use FreeBSD.
>
> 2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying to
> do. I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if that's
> what the community thinks is appropriate. What I'm suggesting is that we
> remove his name from the website:
> (http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to
> innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and
> unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of insensitive
> jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings.
Where does it say we condone Hitler's sayings? It doesn't and maybe
some of his sayings are worth condoning.
All it says is they don't belong in the offensive fortunes just
because they happen to be said by Hitler. It's a good example made in
context.
> People who come accross this wording will not stop to think about
> all the deep philosophical reasons why the text needs to be there to
> protect freedoms. All they will see is that we seemingly support
> Hitler. Why don't we have other names controversial during our
> times like Mussolini, Stalin, or even Gorge Bush?
If people are so shallow that they think FreeBSD supports Hitler and
all his works from that page, then they don't deserve to use FreeBSD &
good riddance to them.
As to why we shouldn't have another name? Well, people would obviously
think we support all the satanic works of Mussolini, George Bush etc.
We'd be back to square one again.
>
> >Just because he was "evil" doesn't mean he and the rest of his
> >henchmen didn't have something interesting to say about the human
> >condition. If you don't believe me, read "Brave New World: Revisited"
> >by A.Huxley.
>
> This has nothing to do with anything that I'm saying. Listen, my
> grandmother also has some interesting things to say but you don't put her
> name on the front page of the Fortune program because it's not appropriate.
> Same thing here. Just not an appropriate forum.
I just don't agree with you. His name is used entirely appropriately
on that page.
<snip>
PS. Please note that I use <snip> to indicate excised content & I
didn't quote you out of order or context.
Regards,
--
Frank
Contact info: http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/misc/contact.html
sor...@cydem.org
> > I can understand your point that you'd like the reference to be less
> > specific ("don't put something in the offensive list because you
> > find the source offensive"), but at this point the motivation still
> > seems to be "I'm scared of reading 'Hitler'", and because of that I
> > am opposed to changing the page. Quite frankly, the man's been dead
> > for over fifty years. I think we can safely mention his name with
> > reasonable assurance that he won't jump out of a dark alley and
> > boogeyman us to death.
>
> This thread really has nothing to do with being scared of reading
> 'Hitler'. The point is that folks could visit FreeBSD's website,
> reading "ah, so Hitler is not offensive". Some folks would agree,
> some would disagree. Why would you like to polarize in the first
> place? Second point is, that Hitler is a politicial historical
> person. FreeBSD has nothing to do with politics or history, so come
> on and delete that bloody name of the website. It can't be that hard,
> eh?
All right.
"This thread really has nothing to do with being scared of reading
'emacs'. The point is that folks could visit FreeBSD's website,
reading "ah, so emacs is not offensive". Some folks would agree, some
would disagree. Why would you like to polarize in the first place?"
The point missed was that the example warns those with an itch to stick
Hitler's quotes or emacs jokes into an offensive list to reconsider
contributing to the fortunes. This kind of thinking in rather absolute
terms is not so compatible with FreeBSD's philosophy of 'free', meaning
in this context 'unbiased'.
The concrete example used is there for a reason. Read the whole page,
especially near the end. Not all the fortunes have nothing to do with
history, don't they?
> Regards,
> Marian
[SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2
jonathan michaels
removed for brevity
> > And you haven't got the right to excise Hitler's name from FreeBSD
> > material. Don't you see the irony in that? When he banned certain
> > artists on the grounds of "decency" just like you're proposing to do.
> Two points
> 1) first of all, i don't think that freebsd operating system is an
> appropriate forum to express political views. so whether we are for or
> against censorship or democracy or fascism or communism, it really does not
> matter. what matters is how good our coding is, and how appropriate the
> wording on our website. because like it or not, we have to present a decent
> website that does not offend our users and does not make us look bad in
> front of non-users.
so just using a name is a political statement ?? a political comment ??
explain to me please when this happened, i'm not truely current as
regards my political education.
> 2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying to
> do. I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if that's
> what the community thinks is appropriate. What I'm suggesting is that we
> remove his name from the website:
> (http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to
> innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and
> unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of insensitive
> jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings. People who come
> accross this wording will not stop to think about all the deep philosophical
> reasons why the text needs to be there to protect freedoms. All they will
> see is that we seemingly support Hitler. Why don't we have other names
> controversial during our times like Mussolini, Stalin, or even Gorge Bush?
ummmm i would like to add a third point .. question, view.
you seem to talk like a person who hasn't a clue .. like teh majority
off the politically correct opinion 'pushers' in this world. most of
my family didn;t make it out of europe during wwII but my grandmother
did and her daughter my mother did did as well. they didn't talk much
about what really happened but i remember teh scream nightmares like
they are happening right now.
note, i am not advocating any political position. maybe i didn't need
to say this .. but just in case..
one thing that my grandmother taught me was that the day we start to
sucomb tot eh opinions of those that would hide the not so nice things
in this world that is teh day we start the clock to teh next episode.
you want to take out those things because tehy are truely ofensive or because
you personally find them offensive for what ever justification you care
to choose ? if they are truely offensive then sure BUT if it is a case
of personal offence because of what others might think of you and
you are frightened of what they might say about you ?? this is what it
sounds like to my simple mind.
we as a group wil eventually need to make our minds up as regards to
how far we go to appease the nefarious 'others' that rule us all be
fear, fear of being left out, fear of being cast as teh outsider.
my grandmother asked me to remember what happened because she was
frightened that me and people like me (i am intellectuall and
physically disabled) will, at best be discriminated against or at worst
be 'scrubed out' because we are a burden, don;t fit.
the only way we can remember is to have those items before our eyes,
yes they might be hard to swallow they might even be politically
incorrect at this point in time but we as a society need to remember
what teh real costs of appeasment really is .. it has already started
with freebsd change from teh logo come mascot beastie being change to a
LESS offensive image were is it going to stop ??
>
> > Just because he was "evil" doesn't mean he and the rest of his
> > henchmen didn't have something interesting to say about the human
> > condition. If you don't believe me, read "Brave New World: Revisited"
> > by A.Huxley.
>
> This has nothing to do with anything that I'm saying. Listen, my
> grandmother also has some interesting things to say but you don't put her
> name on the front page of the Fortune program because it's not appropriate.
> Same thing here. Just not an appropriate forum.
then where are the apprepriate fora ?
in conclusion, i hope your grandmother didn't have to see and do teh
things that my grandmother needed to too survive wwII.
please excuse my writing style, its teh best that i can do and i am not
pointing fingures, i hope i am saying what i think that i am saying.
we as a group as a society need to remember so that we won;t repeat our
past mistakes, current wisdom comes to us from/by learning the lessons
that our history/events have teh capacity to teach, us, .. at least those
that (are willing to) learn.
most kind regards
jonathan
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==== === appropriate solution in an inappropriate world === ====
Bart Silverstrim
Erich Dollansky wrote:
> Hi,
>
> eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
>>> On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 08:12:36PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
>>>>
>>
>> 1) first of all, i don't think that freebsd operating system is an
>> appropriate forum to express political views. so whether we are for
>> or against censorship or democracy or fascism or communism, it really
>> does not matter. what matters is how good our coding is, and how
>> appropriate the wording on our website. because like it or not, we
>> have to present a decent website that does not offend our users and
>> does not make us look bad in front of non-users.
>
> this reasoning was one of the main excuses of Germans after the war was
> lost. 'I only did my job'.
This thread has been a wonderful demonstration of how people rationalize
and interpret information.
The poster before you was saying that they don't care what your non-BSD
related views are, keep them to yourself. They're saying the priority
is to promote and evangelize BSD. The political commentary has nothing
to do with the OS, so it reflects on the community when threads like
this are pursued.
Somehow, you're saying the "Germans rationalized their atrocities with
the excuse they were only doing their jobs."
A) I don't see how the two are related at all. You're not making any
clear justification for that reply.
B) What happened was more a demonstration of society and psychology than
having an entire nation suddenly "go insane." Every society has
elements that to an outsider with their own culture and standards seems
insane, and events of the period will also influence perceptions.
It's also very clear that Germany wasn't one cohesive anti-Jewish loony
bin. They were people, plain Jane citizens with their own beliefs and
lives.
>> that's what the community thinks is appropriate. What I'm suggesting
>> is that we remove his name from the website:
>
> Is there a shorter way to express the same thing?
Replace everything mildly offensive with the string Anonymous or Chuck
or Beastie. Whitewashing everything is the clearest way to having an
enlightened community.
William Palfreman
Ahh top post! Now I will rot on hell with Hitler, anyone who is
offended by seeing a Hitler quote in the Fortune program (an
electronic fortune cookie for crying out loud)
and whichever numpty thought that stupid new logo was ok and that it
mattered if a few very clearly non-FreeBSD uses thought it was
satinic.
Bill.
(BTW, top posting can be useful if you want to refer to a text as a
general overview, not a line by line flame war)