Getting projects alive: Ultratonal Piano? Ratchet Tuning Peg?

[Ozan Yarman]

Hi Melm group.

Now that the MELM initiative has sparked action among the microtonalist elite and spurred us to work on new ideas together, let me bring to your attention some prospects for possible mutual collaboration.

You will undoubtedly remember that I have conceived many years ago a Hydraulic design aimed to convert any acoustical piano to a fully automatic micro-tunable piano. As pretentious as this sounds, here is a link to an old webpage in my site:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/hydraulichord.html

http://www.ozanyarman.com/hidrolikord.html

more details can be found here (albeit in Turkish only):

http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/ultratonalpiyano.pdf

http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/utp_projesi.pdf

In the same flair of mechanical engineering feat, you can also scrutinize this ratchet tuning peg design of mine:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/ratchetpeg.html

While microtonal applications so far on our part focus on software/hardware, I wonder if it might be feasible to slowly progress on a hybrid path incorporating acoustical too.

Consider the Ultrapiano Design, where software and hardware control units must be implemented aside the regular mechanical parts. The workings of the parts depend on a master console at the behest of the pianist.

Also consider the Ratchet Peg, which can be so manufactured as to be computer-controlled, so that a qanun's strings could perhaps be automatically tuned on-the-fly, without the need for mandals.

I am hoping that Uğur Keçecioğlu will interject here with his brilliant slide-mandal design presented to one of the Qanun Circle gatherings.

Let the brainstorming commence!

Cordially,

Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩

www.ozanyarman.com

[Aaron Andrew Hunt]

Hydraulichord is a clever idea, but I'm left wondering if is it physically possible. I'm not an engineer, so I don't know. BTW, I don't mean to shoot down ideas; I just respond honestly; this can often expose my own ignorance, in which case I sincerely want to be taught, corrected.

I checked the documents and don't see any physics / engineering equations or data, so this would be the first thing to consider adding to your documents, as it leaves me skeptical that it could work. Needless to say, modern piano strings are under tremendous tension. If it is possible to turn a peg in this manner (data and equations could convince), then I imagine there would still be a considerable problem with torsion to deal with (again, equations needed). This mechanism presumably needs to be hermetically sealed on both sides of the stopple? (physical data needed) Also, that the fluid has to be under huge pressure (again, need data, equations).

Since I can't read Turkish, I don't know what text may be included in the other documents related to these issues, but this is my first reaction: a clever concept, but I'm not sure it could work practically.

Cheers,
AAH
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[Robert Walker]

Hi Ozan,

Thanks, interesting idea. I don't know anything about engineering practicality or how to get it underway but enjoyed reading it.

What would be great would be if you could have a midi interface to it, so that it receives tuning tables  then you could retune it using SCALA from a scala scale or a .tun tuning table. 

For that to work you would need some way for the controller units to detect the pitch of the string as it is retuned,, so it can automatically adjust the tuning to any desired pitch. Probably with some override to prevent it tuning the strings too high or too low in pitch for the physical capabilities of the piano.

Then it could also automatically retune the piano as well when it goes out of tune. If you could market it like that it would be of general interest not just to microtonalists, as a piano that never goes out of tune. 

So also the other way, inventors who are trying to devise such pianos may have come up with ideas already that could be of interest for your invention. A search for automatically self tuning pianos turns up a couple of interesting links:

This one auto tunes the piano by running an electric current through the wires to adjust the temperature of the strings:

http://www.amica.org/Live/Publications/Past-Bulletin-Articles/SelfTuning-Article.PDF

I suppose it depends on what range of pitch is possible by that method. You could perhaps combine the two, e.g. use heating of strings for fine tuning (if the mechanical methods didn't achieve fine enough tuning or to get beyond the resolution  of the ratchet peg if you used that) or for silent retuning in the middle of a performance.

Discussion of that and other ideas  here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1324766/Any_successful_auto_tuning_pia.html

Perhaps it could be interesting to link up with these inventors and share ideas with them?

Robert

[Aaron Andrew Hunt]

About 10 years ago there was a flurry of press around self-tuning pianos. Links from around then are at the bottom of this page: <http://www.h-pi.com/eop-keyboards.html> The problem with the idea generally is the huge tension of standard piano strings. AFAIK the British self-tuning piano eventually became the FluidPiano having moveable bridges for the strings which are under much lower tension than a standard piano. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Cq3pbcMkI>

Cheers,
Aaron
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[Robert Walker]

Thanks for the links. I wonder if that means the fluid piano can be adapted to be auto retuned by adding pitch detection and feedback? Also to quickly change tuning mid performance?

Is there any way high tension could cause issues with the electrical heating method? I had a look at the faq in the pdf.

The high tension is a challenge but challenges can be solved sometimes with new ideas or approaches, things are invented and become commonplace and most people then forget that they ever were an issue and that a new idea needed to be invented to solve the problem.

Cheers,

Robert

[Aaron Andrew Hunt]

On Dec 31, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Robert Walker wrote:
> Is there any way high tension could cause issues with the electrical heating method? I had a look at the faq in the pdf.

No, I think that method was developed as a clever way of avoiding problems with high tension.

What I meant to say is that the high tension is probably the biggest difficulty faced in auto-retuning pianos, that inventions attempting to change tuning of pianos by mechanically turning tuning pins meet directly with this problem.

Cheers,
Aaron

[Ozan Yarman]

Dear Aaron Andrew and Robert, as well as the rest of MELM group members,

Firstly I celebrate your New Year and hope that it brings along much goodness for everyone.

Coming to the matter of my sketchy Ultratonal Piano and Ratched Tuning Peg ideas:

1. Yes, I concur with you Aaron Andrew that these projects demand lot's of mechanical  engineering calculations let alone all the required software/hardware coding plus beta-testing. They remain as cute ideas and their applicability to real-life requires much deliberation and planning aforehand. Still, I am confident that current technology and the suggested techniques are within the limits of practicability. People here might remember that I had had attempted to bend a bass string of my Hermann Mayer practice piano some years ago using a hydraulic piston (via a really amateurish contraption using a long stick tied to the piston drawing support from a wall). The results were indeed much to my satisfaction since the bending of the bass string was quick and accurate with no visible dent to the string itself - even after several trys. Hyraulichord is a major improvement on the same line of reasoning; viz. using the piston mechanism to directly change individual string tensions (conversion of translational motion to rotational force) instead of using pistons to apply presssure on the strings externally.

2. I agree fully with Robert that the master console commanding each Hydraulichord must accept incoming MIDI tuning table messages as well as SCALA scale file input among other things. The controller must function in such a manner as to automatically assure the total tension of strings on the piano frame remains under the designated excessive load given any selective/collective pitch changes, notwithstanding taking into account individual piano wire break strengths. I'm confident that all these can be automated after several tests if one ever comes to that.

3. Given the necessity to measure the frequency of each string on-the-fly, including also the harmonics of each string individually & collectively, I had had also come up with an idea which I christened the "Doppler Tonometer". I conceived this device as an array of mini-laser guns pointing and continously shooting at each string, all the while reading the light wave that bounces back from the vibrating wires. A Fast-Fourier transform or suchlike analysis of the reflected lightwave (the workable wavelength of which requires calculations) would then yield the spectral information of the string. A feedback loop can assure how far the fluid in the Hydraulichord must go before the desired frequency is reached. If it goes too far, and immediate automatic fluid flow counteraction could assure that we lock in on the desired pitch.

4. As could be discerned from my interest in the subject of auto-tunable piano, I did do some research and did indeed find many studies/applications some of which have been patented and even built. Certainly I know of the invention that heats up piano wires by Karl Ellison. It's clever, but obviously does not take into consideration the risks involved with metal fatigue. Piano wires are quite sensitive to rapid changes in temperature, and will definitely weaken when this method is constantly applied to tune the strings. This guy also introduced electromagnetic coils that come into resonance with the vibrating strings - which yields the frequencies of each and every one of them. Ingenious though, but I think my "Doppler Tonometer" approach is better (if it works at all), because it does not necessitate lengthy moments of pitch measurement via coils, but can be so designed as to yield the spectral information at light speed while the pianist plays on any tuning.

5. I am glad that Neil Sundberg in one of the links already mentions of the obvious next step: "improved pin block". Hydraulichord implies just that. Each pinblock of the piano will be delicately removed and replaced with parts holding as many Hydraulichords as needs to be housed in that particular section of the piano. The housing hosts all the tubes and whatnot to operate the Hydraulichords and must be so designed as to fit many piano brands. Possibly, just 4 housing models could suffice to convert any piano to an Ultratonal Piano. I also notice that another guy has suggested "electrical extremely heavy-duty servos" in place of the pins, which reminds me of the long nights of discussions we have pursued with Uğur Keçecioğlu on just the idea of suchlike torque motors! However, this might just be more applicable to the qanuns than pianos. I remember Ömer Tulgan along with a friend has once suggested movable frets under the strings.

6. Which brings me to Geoff Smith, whom I met this year in Hakan Ali Toker's house. The Fluidpiano he built is just that: a specially manufactured piano whose individualy strings can be re-tuned with slides under them acting as frets. As Aaron says, the strings involve much lower tensions compared to the piano, which allows one to slide the moving bridges under them without much effort. But this is a new instrument altogether. Robert is quite right in stating that it could be improved by building a mechanism that moves the slides without the players interventions. My approach is to convert any ordinary acoustical piano to a fully micro-tunable piano.

7. As for mixing the best of both worlds, if extreme torques create immense problems with the Hydraulichord, one can indeed try to boost up the tuning procedure by perhaps getting those ratchets as coarse tuning pins, and the Hydraulichords as precise tuning pins, both of them working in tandem.

Cordially,

Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩

www.ozanyarman.com