Where are we?

[Mr. Viles]

The sequence in the rise and fall of a democracy generally attributed to Alex Fraser Tytler:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;

2. from spiritual faith to great courage;

3. from great courage to liberty;

4. from liberty to abundance;

5. from abundance to selfishness;

6. from selfishness to complacency;

7. from complacency to apathy;

8. from apathy to dependence;

9. from dependency back again to bondage

Where are we?

[Douglas Kimball]

We are going from abundance to selfishness.

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Mr. Viles]

Explain why you think this.

[Andrew Dyer]

I believe that we are on number 8. At our current state where everyone is relying on the government, we may soon find ourselves going back to rule like there was in colonial times (kings). The people of our country are blaming everything on our government and not doing anything about it. Welfare and things like that are being abused by some and the taxpayers have to pick up the slack. We also are trillions of dollars in debt. Because we are so much in debt we are trying to make more money which in turn starts inflation which will eventually lead to either our economic downfall, or major reforms.

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Jacob Cloutier]

My interpretation is that we are on the number 6. I believe that we are in this stage because we went through stage on when we first arrived with the pilgrams. We went through stage two when the declaration was declared. The next stage was the revolutionary war. Then durning the industrial revolution we had great abundance. Then over the past 50 years America has grown selfish we want more oil then we have and we must go to other countries to get it. Now we are at the sixth stage if we move on from it I surely hope that we don't.      

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Jacob Holt]

I think we are in the Phase of "complacency to apathy" because so much of the U.S depends on the government just like stated in this website near the bottom of the page 

http://www.shofarbetzion.com/01/RiseFallofDemocraticSociety.htm 

   

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Andrew Dyer]

Courtesy of http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2012/08/17/surprise-americas-dependence-on-foreign-oil-is-increasing/

How’s that hopey-changey windy-sunny energy plan working for ya, America?

The United States is increasing its dependence on oil from Saudi Arabia, raising its imports from the kingdom by more than 20 percent this year, even as fears of military conflict in the tinderbox Persian Gulf region grow.

The increase in Saudi oil exports to the United States began slowly last summer and has picked up pace this year. Until then, the United States had decreased its dependence on foreign oil and from the Gulf in particular.

This reversal is driven in part by the battle over Iran’s nuclear program. The United States tightened sanctions that hampered Iran’s ability to sell crude, the lifeline of its troubled economy, and Saudi Arabia agreed to increase production to help guarantee that the price did not skyrocket. While prices have remained relatively stable, and Tehran’s treasury has been squeezed, the United States is left increasingly vulnerable to a region in turmoil.

Man.  I was so sure that twisty lightbulbs and electric cars would solve this problem.  Darn it.

If only we had access to oil and natural gas here in the United States!  Oh, wait.

Well, at least we have a president who knows how to handle news like this.  Oh, wait.

[Caleb Wursten]

How? Give links/examples

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:08:51 AM UTC-4, Douglas Kimball wrote:

[Kourtney Webber]

If this "chain" is true, then I think that the US is in a place where we are a dependent democracy. I mean look at how society is right now, so many people are dependent on our government. Look at all the people on food stamps who are literally relying on our government for food. In the year 2012, 46 million people have become dependent on food stamps. I'm not enough of an expert to go on about how else people are dependent on the government and everything, but I feel like there aren't a lot of people who aren't dependent on the government in some way or another, but those who aren't dependent struggle and it shouldn't be that way. As a whole the US is also very dependent on other countries, for things like oil that has become a necessity for our country. That gives the countries with oil power over us because we are so dependent on their product. I think America needs to become much more independent, the people within the country and the country itself.

Wow, and I just found a website that is legit about the benefits you can get from the government......  http://www.benefits.gov/ To me that is not ok... 

[Jacob Cloutier]

Qucik question about the website Jacob H. What is the Lion of Judah?

[Matt Riley]

I believe that we are at the seventh step in the sequence. Step 3 for the USA was very obviously the American Revolution. As it took great courage to rise against the king and after we won we had liberty. Then step 4 of the cycle was the Industrial Revolution, as it gave us an abundance of material goods. The reason  that we are in the seventh step is that we went from thinking that everything is good to just not caring anymore. This is shown by how most people don't care that we are now in $15.8 trillion of debt. However it does not seem that we are completely controlled by the government as we still fight over presidential elections and how some people think that the government is doing a bad job.

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Kirsten Costedio]

America is currently in the "dependency" or 8th stage of Tytler's sequence of the rise and fall of a democracy. Our nation is dependent on numerous countries for oil- a commodity our present day society can not live with out.  Also America is very dependent on other countries for money, as of right now our countries debt to other countries is just over 5.5 trillion dollars. Without money from these other countries, America's sustainability would decrease. Our dependence on a multitude of other countries for money and goods to keep the economy going, is why we are in stage 8 of the 'Democracy Sequence.' (http://www.usdebtclock.org/) 

[Greysen Heatherly]

I truly believe we are on the stage of "apathy to dependence" due to the fact in our current times we are showing carelessness towards everything that is going on around us and we are also beginning to depend on the government to fix the mistakes that we have made. I surely hope we are not on this stage but by all that is going on around us and what the government is showing us today it seems as though we are becoming more dependent.

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Kourtney Webber]

(to andrew) Hah, I love the president part 

[Jacob Holt]

Jake I think where one step further because in 2000 40% of our country depends on the government and has no intrest in working for there own cash    

[Kourtney Webber]

jake, wouldn't this be dependency, not complacency to apathy? Because you say "So much of the U.S. depends on the government" 

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:16:16 AM UTC-4, Jacob Holt wrote:

[Christine Clark]

    I think America's democracy has begun the decline from apathy towards dependency. 

    I think we are approaching this stage because as a nation we have become reliant upon government programs. As stated in the following quote, "When John F. Kennedy was President, just over a quarter of federal spending went to fund programs paying for some 21.7 million Americans to be dependent on Uncle Sam. But as high as that spending and dependence on the federal government was then, it has exploded today, with one in five Americans — more than 67.3 million — depending on Washington for assistance." people of today are more dependent upon government aid then ever before. -site-http://blog.heritage.org/2012/02/09/morning-bell-dependence-on-government-highest-in-history/
     In addition to that, the people of this country have grown lax in the participation in upholding this nation's foundational values. This is clear by simply looking at issues of debate that are currently coming up to vote, such as the definition of marriage, foreign policy, and  involvement of government.    

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Andrew Dyer]

Kirsten, good point with the oil

[Jacob Holt]

Its a website I found am not sure about the names but i checked the facts a couple of times with different places and it doubled since then 

[Bailey Ayer]

I believe that we are at the apathy to dependence stage, because a number of people rely on the government and are not independent. Also the government relies on other countries for resources such as we rely on the middle east for our oil supply.

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Michael Benjamin]

I agree with Courtney, so much people are dependent on the government that first thing the government collapses all the citizens are not going to be able to fuel themselves and essentially we are leaning right on another great depression, and I believe we are on 8. we are completely dependent on other countries, we already had our time of selfishness and then we rode off our accomplishments and now we are mostly out of recourses and were dependent on everyone else for our own good, were only importing not exporting, and I dont think america knows its place in the world at all.

[Alex Black]

We are on step 9, for we have reached dependency and are heading towards bondage. When this country first began we were at number 1. Then the revolutionary war pushed us through numbers 2 and 3. The many developments over the years after that had started abundance. Selfishness was reached in the early 20th century. Complacency was reached as we grew satisfied with the power we had gained in world war 2. Apathy began as people began to not care about the political structure during the 50s through the 80s. As the economy has reached a major decline we have moved into dependence. The government is now gaining more control over the people with the public relying on political figures to fix the problems that were caused by the community. Which is why we are heading in for an unsafe landing in bondage. 

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Kirsten Costedio]

Jake, although you make some valid points about our previous stages on the democracy sequence, I don't believe we are complacent. Our country is over 5.5 trillion in debt- and that's just to other countries. We are dependent on oil, and scrambling to find new sources of energy before all of the worlds accessible oil is used up. Our country is certainly not comfortable economic wise, looking at the position our country is in.   

[Jacob Cloutier]

Does anybody else think that a Democracy can reverse the order of this chain? I only say this because I believe the United States went through a time of great poverty and depression during "The Great Depression", but we managed to dig our country out of it. Does anyone else we can reverse our way out and if so which one do you want to go back too?  

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Mr. Viles]

Many people have alluded to oil as evidence of dependency.

Does this article change that analysis?

[Greysen Heatherly]

Nice point when it came to the fact we are reliant for needed supplies from other countries

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Bailey Ayer wrote:

[Christine Clark]

Andrew, I agree with your point; I would also point out that because our nation's people are not educating themselves to the point where they would be able to do something to help our situation, they are hindering more than helping by using the government, and government officials, as scapegoats for the problems of the United States.

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:13:37 AM UTC-4, Andrew Dyer wrote:

[Jacob Cloutier]

Is this me?

[Michael Benjamin]

"More than half of the US population – 165 million of 308 million Americans – is now dependent on the state in some form."

http://rt.com/usa/news/half-government-million-percent-320/

its 8. all the way

[Jacob Cloutier]

Very true, do you know some ways that people are acting to do something about the economy?

[Andrew Dyer]

Good point Jake C

[Cat Williams]

I believe we are back at the bondage stage. When people started coming to the "new world", they started to create a bondage because they knew they wouldn't be able to survive on their own. From there, when the churches started to be built, many people developed a spiritual faith. From the faith, they developed courage to break away from England. Breaking away from Enland lead to creating a liberty within the community they started to for rights, (The Bill of Rights). From liberty, we created an abundance in the society, the trades, by creating alliances. From there, we started to become selfish, we keep wanting more and more from other countries, until we are satisfied with what we are receiving. We then started to lose interest in what is going on around us, while certain things are on demand, we don't have a care on where it is coming from, as long as we're receiving what we want. This causes us to become dependent on our alliances with other countries and the trades to keep us going. We get oil from the Middle East; we haven't really tried for creating oil here in America. With new technologies being presented, we could start to break away from the dependencies on other countries, having us fall back to the "bonding stage".

[Caleb Wursten]

We have clearly experienced the events 1-4 and are now on the latter step 5, abundance to selfishness. Step one was the British rule and the unrest. Step 2 was the unrest turning into violence most famously in the Boston Massacre. Step 3 was Lexington and Concord w/ the courageous rebels standing up to the number one global super power. Step 4 was after the Revolution was won we were slowly growing as a super power but were brought to the fore front of power post world war II. During the war our manufacturing was supplying the huge military movements in Europe. The USA was also one of the few superpowers not completely destroyed by the war allowing it to blossom. Step 5 was post WWII when we went to declared war on Saddam Hussein and his attempts to grap the oil fields of the area. This was due to the fact that it would have given him power over the prices of gasoline which is the lifeblood of our economy. I cannot think of any instances where Americans are satisfied with the current situation so I would not say we are on step 6. Thus putting us on step 5

[Douglas Kimball]

      We are going from abundance to selfishness. This is manly because in the US's government the senate has no sit down and agree on a budget plan in the past three years. This is do to the fact that the two major parties (Democrats and Republicans) are constantly at a stalemate, making it increasingly difficult for anything to be past. They also constantly saying that if they do agree on something that they are, "giving ground to the other party," which is childish to say, and not a matter of giving or taking ground because they are support to be representing the ideas and opinions of the American people, this initials not arguing about the same topic of three years and not coming to a compromise because they don't want to agree with an idea for another party.

[Matt Riley]

Andrew you never stated where we are, this is great information but you never stated where we are on the cycle

[Caleb Wursten]

Matt, what evidence is there that we have passed step 6? Can you think of anyone that is happy with our current economical status? Just a few minutes ago you were talking about how the Obama was not doing what was right for the economy. Hence you being concerned about the economy not complacent

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:20:30 AM UTC-4, Matt Riley wrote:

I believe that we are at the seventh step in the sequence. Step 3 for the USA was very obviously the American Revolution. As it took great courage to rise against the king and after we won we had liberty. Then step 4 of the cycle was the Industrial Revolution, as it gave us an abundance of material goods. The reason  that we are in the seventh step is that we went from thinking that everything is good to just not caring anymore. This is shown by how most people don't care that we are now in $15.8 trillion of debt. However it does not seem that we are completely controlled by the government as we still fight over presidential elections and how some people think that the government is doing a bad job.

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:26:29 AM UTC-4, Mr. Viles wrote:

[Kourtney Webber]

Caleb, I think you're focusing to much on the past instead of the present. Obviously right now our country is dependent. We're talking about right now, not about past steps. Right now people in our country are dependent on our government!!! 

[Jacob Holt]

Kourtney apathy means lack of will so depending on the government is a lack of will to work  

[Kirsten Costedio]

Current spending on oil in America: over 445.6 billion dollars (http://www.usdebtclock.org)

[Kourtney Webber]

Caleb, you ask everyone else for specific facts, where are yours???? 

Didn't think so..... 

[Caleb Wursten]

Boston Massacre, Lexington&Concord, World War II acting as a stimulus, US going to war with Saddam Hussein. These are called specific facts, Kourtney

[Kourtney Webber]

Pshhhhhhh :P