Interactions with the E3 Workshop

[Rachel Northey]

Below is the draft of what I was going to share with Gorbet, MacGregor, and Calamai. Is this just an informative email or should I be asking the department to compensate us rather than just look into ways to help people in the future?

Hello, 

We recently had interactions with the shop in E3 to help build our final prototype as they had the tools needed to accurately create our design where the student shop could not teach us how to accurately build our project. We had approval to do this but when it came to completion we had some troubles. My complaint is two-fold, one that we had an understanding of what work would be created by a specific time and it wasn't, the second being that student teams get a discount on the cost per hour of work at $15 per hour where as students who are not part of a team have to pay $25. 

In terms of the cost my understanding from the people in the shop, specifically Rick, is that the cost for teams is supplemented by the dean, it seems unfair that some student projects are supplemented while others aren't. I understand that teams tend to take their projects off campus and are tied to promoting the university, but design projects also get promoted to the general public through outreach and symposium days. If the dean isn't willing to supplement all students perhaps the department would be willing to match what student teams pay. 

When it came to paying for our project there was some challenge, the shop likes having an account to put the charges through rather than on a WatCard but the department was not willing to help us with this because they cannot accept cash to deposit into the department account. This became part of the challenge when attempting to pay for the work that was done.  In future it would be appreciated if there was some support from the department on tasks such as this so that we could put it through an account. 

More of the challenge was that there was an agreement with the shop that all of the work we had requested would be finished by March 8th. On March 1st we went to see the shop to determine if they would be able to complete our project in the time line we had. At this point we were told that yes it could be done and that Fred who would be working on it would be leaving on vacation on Friday and thus it would be done. We were also told that it would take 20-30 hours to complete the work and we would be responsible for the full cost. In the morning of March 4th we dropped off all of the materials that would be needed to do the project, this had  been agreed upon on the 1st as a way to help reduce costs. On March 6th we went back to the shop to check in and make sure that things were going well and at that point some mention was made that measurements on the wood itself were not quite exact and that was causing some problems but that it would still be done on time. In the afternoon of March 7th we called into determine what time on the 8th we would be able to pick up the completed project. At this point Rick informed us that there was a problem and that we should come in. In the morning of March 8th we went back to the shop to find out what the problem was, Fred said that there hadn't been any unexpected problems but another task had to be done and would take up his time so our project would not be finished. This resulted in the group needing to pick up the remaining pieces and attempt to get the project done. Fred did say that he could change his vacation and come in on Monday but we said that we needed the project by Friday night and thus Monday would not be helpful. Monday afternoon March 11th we received an email saying that we owe $450, with no explanation  When we went to ask for a full invoice that would show where this number came from we were told there wasn't one and that since it was just labour we could divide by $25 to get the number of hours ourselves to find out the total costs. We then approached them to say that the work wasn't finished and as such we wanted a discounted costs. We were told that they don't want to set that precedent, that it was a last minute job and we should be happy that it all worked out in the end, that workload on everyone is high, we should have checked in through out the week to see how things were going, that if this was a real world application and the contract wasn't complete we would still have to pay it, and that since it was an hourly rate and we only paid for the hours that were worked if it had been finished the cost would be higher. While many of these are good points it was the treatment of our project that we were unappreciated of. We should have been informed before Friday that the project wouldn't have been done. While there isn't anything that we think can be done at this point to make things better for us it would be appreciated if this story was made aware of to help prevent treatment of students like this from happening in the future. 

"Maud Gorbet" <mgo...@uwaterloo.ca>, "Paul Calamai" <phca...@uwaterloo.ca>,

"Suhaila Baheyeldin" <sub...@gmail.com>, "Mihika Kashyap" <kashya...@hotmail.com>, "Carolyn MacGregor" <carolyn....@uwaterloo.ca>,

[Mihika Kashyap]

Here are my edits:

Hello, 

This email is regarding our fourth year design project. We recently had interactions with the shop in E3 to help build our final prototype as they had the tools and machines needed to accurately create our design, where the student shop in E5 could not teach us how to accurately build our project. We had approval to do this but when it came to completion we had some troubles. Our complaint is two-fold, one that we had an understanding of what work would be created by a specific time and it wasn't, the second being that student teams get a discount on the cost per hour of work at $15 per hour, where as students who are not part of a team have to pay $25. 

In terms of the cost my understanding from the people in the shop, specifically Rick Forgett, is that the cost for teams is supplemented by the dean. It seems rather unfair that some student projects are supplemented while others are not. I understand that teams tend to take their projects off campus and are tied to promoting the university, but design projects also get promoted to the general public through outreach and symposium days. If the dean isn't willing to supplement all students perhaps the department would be willing to match what student teams pay. 

When it came to paying for our project there was some challenge, the shop likes having an account to put the charges through rather than on a WatCard but the department was not willing to help us with this because they cannot accept cash to deposit into the department account. This became part of the challenge when attempting to pay for the work that was done.  In future it would be appreciated if there was some support from the department on tasks such as this so that we could put it through an account. 

More of the challenge was that there was an agreement with the shop that all of the work we had requested would be finished by March 8th. The following are the series of events that took place:

Friday, March 1st - Met with the E3 shop to determine if they would be able to complete our project in the timeline projected. It was deemed that the project would be completed by Friday, March 8th as Fred Bakker who would be working on it would be on vacation the next week. We were further told that it would take about 20-30 hours to complete the work, and we would be responsible for the full cost. We decided to supply them with the materials to lower our costs.

Monday, March 4th - We dropped off all of the materials for the project in the morning.

Wednesday, March 6th - We went back to the E3 shop to ensure that the project was on track. It was mentioned on this day that the measurements on the wood for our project were not accurate and was therefore causing problems. We were reassured that the project would still be completed by Friday, March 8th.

Thursday, March 7th - We randomly decided to call the shop in the afternoon to determine what time we would need to pick up our project the next day. While on the phone with Rick Forgett, we were informed that there were problems with the project and that we should meet with Fred Bakker.

Friday, March 8th - In the morning, we met with Fred Bakker to find out the issue. Fred said that there hadn't been any unexpected problems other than the fact that he was pulled into another project at the last minute. As such, our project would not be finished. Fred mentioned that he would cut his vacation short by coming in on Monday, March 11th to finish the project. However, our team required the project by Friday and thus Monday would not be helpful. As such, the team had to work double time over the weekend to complete the task.

Monday, March 11th - We received an email from the E3 shop requesting to pay $450 without an invoice, or any explanation. We went to ask for a full invoice to determine where the $450 came from. Unfortunately, we were told there was no invoice and that we should divide $450 by $25/hour to determine the number of hours worked by Fred. This came to 18 hours. We further approached Rick Forgett to say that the job was not finished and as such we would like to pay less than $450. We were told that they don't want to set that precedent, that it was a last minute job and we should be happy that it all worked out in the end, that workload on everyone is high, we should have checked in through out the week to see how things were going, that if this was a real world application and the contract wasn't complete we would still have to pay it, and that since it was an hourly rate and we only paid for the hours that were worked if it had been finished the cost would be higher.

Looking back at the situation, and while many of these are good points it was the treatment of our project that was unappreciated. Had we not called the shop on Thursday, we would not have been aware of the fact that the project would not be completed. Through the explanation presented in this email, we are hoping that the department of Systems Design Engineering will be able to help us out. Additionally, we would appreciate it if this story was made clear to future design groups to help prevent such situations from happening. 

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[Rachel Northey]

In the last paragraph I'm not sure what we are asking for the department to help us with. 

I think that the main point of this is just that we want our story known and that in future it would be good if the department was more supportive of our projects, it seems like the only thing we are asking for is changes moving forward and increasing the awareness that the shop isn't nice to it's students. 

If this is the case I'm okay to send this to MacGregor once we know what we are asking the department to help us with. 

[Suhaila B]

I agree that we want the department to know of the issue, but also to work towards helping future students in situations like this whether it is to partially subsidize the cost, asking the Dean to give the same discounted rate to student projects, or provide students with other options. I think we should also raise the issue of the department not securing sponsorship money this term (until the very end) and as a consequence none of us had any subsidization for our project, where past years had.

As for us, I thought we wanted to ask the department to partially subsidize the cost, specifically $10/hour so that we would be paying the same rate as the student teams.

On Sunday, March 17, 2013, Rachel Northey wrote:

In the last paragraph I'm not sure what we are asking for the department to help us with. 

I think that the main point of this is just that we want our story known and that in future it would be good if the department was more supportive of our projects, it seems like the only thing we are asking for is changes moving forward and increasing the awareness that the shop isn't nice to it's students. 

If this is the case I'm okay to send this to MacGregor once we know what we are asking the department to help us with. 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Mihika Kashyap <kashya...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Here are my edits:

Hello, 

This email is regarding our fourth year design project. We recently had interactions with the shop in E3 to help build our final prototype as they had the tools and machines needed to accurately create our design, where the student shop in E5 could not teach us how to accurately build our project. We had approval to do this but when it came to completion we had some troubles. Our complaint is two-fold, one that we had an understanding of what work would be created by a specific time and it wasn't, the second being that student teams get a discount on the cost per hour of work at $15 per hour, where as students who are not part of a team have to pay $25. 

In terms of the cost my understanding from the people in the shop, specifically Rick Forgett, is that the cost for teams is supplemented by the dean. It seems rather unfair that some student projects are supplemented while others are not. I understand that teams tend to take their projects off campus and are tied to promoting the university, but design projects also get promoted to the general public through outreach and symposium days. If the dean isn't willing to supplement all students perhaps the department would be willing to match what student teams pay. 

When it came to paying for our project there was some challenge, the shop likes having an account to put the charges through rather than on a WatCard but the department was not willing to help us with this because they cannot accept cash to deposit into the department account. This became part of the challenge when attempting to pay for the work that was done.  In future it would be appreciated if there was some support from the department on tasks such as this so that we could put it through an account. 

More of the challenge was that there was an agreement with the shop that all of the work we had requested would be finished by March 8th. The following are the series of events that took place:

Friday, March 1st - Met with the E3 shop to determine if they would be able to complete our project in the timeline projected. It was deemed that the project would be completed by Friday, March 8th as Fred Bakker who would be working on it would be on vacation the next week. We were further told that it would take about 20-30 hours to complete the work, and we would be responsible for the full cost. We decided to supply them with the materials to lower our costs.

Monday, March 4th - We dropped off all of the materials for the project in the morning.

Wednesday, March 6th - We went back to the E3 shop to ensure that the project was on track. It was mentioned on this day that the measurements on the wood for our project were not accurate and was therefore causing problems. We were reassured that the project would still be completed by Friday, March 8th.

Thursday, March 7th - We randomly decided to call the shop in the afternoon to determine what time we would need to pick up our project the next day. While on the phone with Rick Forgett, we were informed that there were problems with the project

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Suhaila

[Rachel Northey]

Mihika any thoughts on asking the department to subsidize our costs? I thought that from the outset they had said they wouldn't help us with any costs, I'm not really sure that this changes that. 

Rachel

[Mihika Kashyap]

I don't think that the department will help us with the costs. Now that we are receiving $500 that will significantly cover our costs and so I don't think we should push the department.

Mihika

[Suhaila B]

Yeah I was just thinking about that. Would it make sense to ask the department to do that for future students (subsidize the $10 so that they get the same rate as student teams)?

Suhaila

[Rachel Northey]

Ok so we don't want to ask them to do anything for us but would like them to seriously consider helping other people in the future? Do I have that right? 

[Suhaila B]

Yup, I think that's the reasonable thing to ask them to do. It's too late for us, but hopefully they can make things better for future students.

Suhaila

[Rachel Northey]

Ok, then I shall send it to MacGregor and see what she says about it.