Firefox 4 dumbing down?
EE
interfaces for Firefox 4. I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
like that to be removed. I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
would not like to see those reduced to one button. On the toolbar, the
reload button is not there any more. I use that quite a bit also. What
is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
understand anything that is a bit more complex?
Jim S
They should also note that several IE7/8 users appear to have moved to FF
as they missed the familiar and sensible layout.
--
Jim S
Tyneside UK
www.jimscott.co.uk
Ron Hunter
I certainly agree about the bookmarks toolbar, which is my main way to
run everything. My interface is minimal, but I could certainly go with
recovering that Windows title bar space for better use. As long as they
preserve the ability to customize the interface any way I want, I don't
really care that much, but I STILL contend that Firefox should have a
basic 'trademark' interface, rather than copying IE, or Chrome, as they
appear to intend.
JM
I don't even like the pictures I've seen of firefox 3.7, much less of 4.
I use the bookmarks toolbar every time I open firefox. The menu bar is
definitely something that they should leave alone. I don't want the stop
and reload buttons combined either. Firefox 4 looks like a combination
of Safari, Google Chrome, and Firefox 3.5. I can deal with some of the
changes in 3.5, such as the new firefox icon and the absence of a close
button when there's only one tab-but they are taking things too far with
4. If it stays that way, 3.5 might be my last major update.
Ron Hunter
I still want a distinctive 'look and feel' that says FIREFOX, rather
than a 'me too' copy of IE or Chrome, or whatever.
While I strongly agree with attempts to maximize the usable screen space
for the website, or application, some things MUST remain, and the
bookmarks toolbar, for me, is indispensable. If it goes, I go.
JM
its own look/feel. As for maximizing the usable screen space, I think
3.5 does a good job of that and I personally wouldn't try to change
anything. And yes, I don't want the bookmarks toolbar to go either.
It is very useful.
Jack Gillis
"JM" <nospam@nospam> wrote in message
news:bcKdnTz_VJ-SqeHX...@mozilla.org...
I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar. I use it every time I load
Firefox. PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT. (Yes, I know I shouted!)
Chris Barnes
> I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar. I use it every time I load
> Firefox. PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT. (Yes, I know I shouted!)
And now for another point of view: I jumped through massive hurdles to
not only hide the bookmarks toolbar, but to eliminate it from my FF3.x
completely....
I despise the thing...
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
ch...@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
You always have freedom of choice, but you never have freedom of
consequence.
BJ
Do the devs look at this NG? While I wouldn't classify the responses
here as a "groundswell", they do indeed reflect that some experienced
users think that FF is going down the wrong path.
While I wouldn't put myself in the category of "experienced user",
though I do know my way around an OS (Windows and Ubuntu) and browsers,
I do in fact agree with all the comments that have been made here.
Is there a way we can communicate these concerns to the devs (not that
they would listen, but at least if FF goes south, we can say "I told you
so")
BJ
--
Bob Jamieson
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete all the NOSPAMs from the email address after clicking Reply.
BJ
> EE wrote:
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4. I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would
>> not like that to be removed. I also use the bookmarks toolbar
>> buttons, and would not like to see those reduced to one button. On
>> the toolbar, the reload button is not there any more. I use that
>> quite a bit also. What is the point of gutting the interface like
>> that anyway?
>> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
>> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
>
> Do the devs look at this NG? While I wouldn't classify the responses
> here as a "groundswell", they do indeed reflect that some experienced
> users think that FF is going down the wrong path.
>
> While I wouldn't put myself in the category of "experienced user",
> though I do know my way around an OS (Windows and Ubuntu) and browsers,
> I do in fact agree with all the comments that have been made here.
>
> Is there a way we can communicate these concerns to the devs (not that
> they would listen, but at least if FF goes south, we can say "I told you
> so")
>
> BJ
>
couldn't because the post was made at the same time) take into account
Chris B's remark.
Still, the majority (so far, anyway) seems to disagree with the FF
direction.
The Real Bev
> Jack Gillis wrote:
>> I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar. I use it every time I load
>> Firefox. PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT. (Yes, I know I shouted!)
>
> And now for another point of view: I jumped through massive hurdles to
> not only hide the bookmarks toolbar, but to eliminate it from my FF3.x
> completely....
>
> I despise the thing...
So did I. Then I took off the default crap and put stuff on it that *I* wanted
and now I like it. I suppose I could just move that stuff to the top of my
bookmarks page, but I already have stuff there that I want.
--
Cheers, Bev
=================================================================
"There's an apocryphal (I hope not !) story about a Bristol bike
thief found cold, wet and bedraggled one morning, D locked by the
neck to a local bridge." -- Anon
The Real Bev
> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
> interfaces for Firefox 4.
Got a URL? I hunted around for a while with no success.
David McRitchie
> Chris Barnes wrote:
>> I despise the thing... [bookmarks toolbar]
>
> So did I. Then I took off the default crap and put stuff on it that *I* wanted
> and now I like it. I suppose I could just move that stuff to the top of my
> bookmarks page, but I already have stuff there that I want.
and therefore on that basis it would be right to get rid of it. But with
my stuff on it, that is entirely another matter. I have almost only folders
on the toolbar, and that makes it very simple to get to the bookmark that
I want to get to. To give you a quick look at what my bookmarks toolbar
looks like see. (about 2/3 height of original, and about half size on width)
Bookmarks Toolbar Blue/Folders, Red/Bookmarks | userstyles.org
http://userstyles.org/styles/9091
I found the Firefox 4 mock-ups,
Firefox 4.0 theme mockups - Mozilla Links
http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2009/07/firefox-4-0-theme-mockups/
I'd seen them before, there is nothing there
to say that they got rid of the bookmarks toolbar, you always had ability to take
it out of view. The interesting thing is that they dumped the title bar, I like the
title bar but would like control over it, like exactly 1/2 the height would be nice,
so I still have all wording and controls. Without the title bar my arrangement, I think,
uses about the same space and I have 4 toolbars . Can't tell for sure, but I think that
their mockup is reduced in size. Examples of mine. If you move the cursor over them
and see a plus sign click on the image to see it full size.
http://userstyles.org/styles/9349
http://userstyles.org/styles/13115
Although the pictures don't show it, I do remove the down arrow from the
unified back/forward button similar to the Firefox 4 mockup.
#back-forward-dropmarker{display:none!important} /* use Right-click to view dropdown */
Ron Hunter
It's an early capture of my toolbar arrangement.
http://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk389/rphunter42/Screenshot.jpg
Ron Hunter
> EE wrote:
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4. I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
>> like that to be removed. I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
>> would not like to see those reduced to one button. On the toolbar, the
>> reload button is not there any more. I use that quite a bit also. What
>> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
>> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
>> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
>
> Do the devs look at this NG? While I wouldn't classify the responses
> here as a "groundswell", they do indeed reflect that some experienced
> users think that FF is going down the wrong path.
>
> While I wouldn't put myself in the category of "experienced user",
> though I do know my way around an OS (Windows and Ubuntu) and browsers,
> I do in fact agree with all the comments that have been made here.
>
> Is there a way we can communicate these concerns to the devs (not that
> they would listen, but at least if FF goes south, we can say "I told you
> so")
>
> BJ
>
David McRitchie
> http://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk389/rphunter42/Screenshot.jpg
You don't use the tabs bar? I'd be lost without it, though sometimes
I do hide them so they only show up on mousing over, is that what you
do. In fact as I recall that is what the mockups of Firefox 4 did, hide some
toolbars until you mouse over, in other words nothing you can't already do
with styling changes.
JM
> EE wrote:
>
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4.
>
> Got a URL? I hunted around for a while with no success.
>
Ron Hunter
close them, and the tabs bar hides when only one tab is open. So, yes,
it is there, just not in use in the examples. However, for me, the
bookmarks toolbar is always in sight since it is my primary navigation
method.
Johnny
It seems like every time someone comes up with something that works,
they don't know when to stop.
JM
The Real Bev
You can't really tell how it's going to work just by looking. I certainly like
to see ALL the things I generally use without having to hunt through a
sub-menu, and it looks like the new version makes you do that. I use tree tabs
at the side, which gives me enough vertical space to make me happy. In fact,
we have to see how the new version works with our old favorite extensions --
and I'm ticked because Video Downloader and Abudction won't work with FF 3.5.1
and Nightly Tester Tools can't fix them.
Do the developers pay any attention to what the users want, or only to what
THEY want?
--
Cheers, Bev
======================================================================
"Steve Balmer, CEO of Microsoft[0], recently referred to LINUX as a
cancer. Unsurprisingly, that's incorrect; LINUX was released on August
25th, 1991 and is therefore a virgo." -- Kevin L
BJ
So who do these guys (gals?) listen to? And who do the ones they listen
to listen to . . . and on up the chain? Somewhere along the line
there's got to be some user input, or is it just an individual at the
top or some "committee", that channels users through esp?
Ron Hunter
circle, and we are supposed to stand up and cheer. Still, as long as
they make the system customizable so that I don't have to look at a
visual clone of IE or Chrome, or (Heaven forbid, Safari), I will stick
around, unless they eliminate something critical like the bookmarks toolbar.
I think the whole idea is to make the browser as transparent as possible
so that they can sell online applications, for which I have exactly zero
use. Still, that aim, common to Mozilla and Google, seems a lot better
than MSIE which is merely a vehicle for delivering advertising, and 'media'.
EE
without a menu bar? How do you switch themes, or change settings for
extensions? I also depend on the menu bar to access bookmarks.
EE
> EE wrote:
>
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4.
>
> Got a URL? I hunted around for a while with no success.
>
Ron Hunter
suppose, you would find such things as options, and bookmarks, etc.
Still, it seems to me that IF you want to get rid of the menus, then
using the 'tiny menu' extension serves the need just fine. I have it
installed, but currently don't have it enabled as it renders the menus
somewhat harder to access.
The thing just looks TOO much like Google Chrome. Not that I don't like
Chrome, but I think Firefox SHOULD be distinctive, and have its own look
and feel, not something borrowed from Chrome, or IE.
Ron Hunter
Ok, IF they want to save space, they can get rid of the wasted space
around the graphic elements, and save a whole text line!
IF they want to uncomplicate the interface, then they can retain the
standard Windows menus that we are familiar with.
IF they want to reduce mouse travel distance, WHY is the back and
forward navigation buttons on the LEFT when most people are scrolling on
the right?
I notice SOME of the images on this page have a 'bookmarks' button. If
this implies that the bookmarks toolbar is NOT present, then I will NOT
be using that version, period.
David McRitchie
> IF they want to uncomplicate the interface, then they can retain the
> standard Windows menus that we are familiar with.
> IF they want to reduce mouse travel distance, WHY is the back and
> forward navigation buttons on the LEFT when most people are scrolling on
> the right?
>
> I notice SOME of the images on this page have a 'bookmarks' button. If
> this implies that the bookmarks toolbar is NOT present, then I will NOT
> be using that version, period.
Hardly making it uncomplicated. The pictures still waste so much space
that they could have everything they always had in the same amount of
space. But more to the point if they want to provide more space to the
web page then add the option as to which toolbars will appear once one
mouses above the tabs bar if it were to remain where it is now, and then
those toolbars disappear again on any click within the page or page up/down
or scrolling. Just like some of the extensions (and styles).
It seems that they like the (Microsoft) Office Ribbon maybe it's easier to program, but
it is impossible for Excel users to add things to the menu and navigate
comfortably so much so that there is no widespread adoption of Office 2007
by existing users. Especially not by those who customize things and had macros.
Customers did not buy into it, but will be forced into upgrading. Yet Mozilla
seems to be buying into it.
Peter Boulding
wrote in <qaCdnRBCk8qvhOPX...@mozilla.org>:
>It seems that they like the (Microsoft) Office Ribbon maybe it's easier to program, but
>it is impossible for Excel users to add things to the menu and navigate
>comfortably so much so that there is no widespread adoption of Office 2007
>by existing users. Especially not by those who customize things and had macros.
>
>Customers did not buy into it, but will be forced into upgrading. Yet Mozilla
>seems to be buying into it.
As a new user of Firefox, who is fast coming to appreciate it--now that I've
found the add-ons that give me back Opera's must-have features--I couldn't
agree more. It appears that no sooner have I decided to make it my default
browser, Firefox--and for no obvious reason--is planning to jump the shark
and I sure as Hell won't be bothering to up^Wdowngrade.
<goes to Tools > Options > Advanced and switches off auto-updating>
Your comments re Excel 2007 are spot on. (BTW, I take it you are *that*
David McRitchie?)
--
Regards, Peter Boulding
pjbn...@UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk (to e-mail, remove "UNSPAM")
Fractal Music and Images: http://www.pboulding.co.uk/ and
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=794240&content=music
Hector
> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
> interfaces for Firefox 4. I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
> like that to be removed. I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
> would not like to see those reduced to one button. On the toolbar, the
> reload button is not there any more. I use that quite a bit also. What
> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
Well, I think they need to take a timeout, lock it down, stabilized
the browser before any more damage to it.
--
Sincerely
Hector Santos
http://www.santronics.com
Ron Hunter
> On 07.08.2009 19:04, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused Chris Barnes
> to generate the following:? :
>> Jack Gillis wrote:
>>
>>> I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar. I use it every time I load
>>> Firefox. PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT. (Yes, I know I shouted!)
>>>
>> And now for another point of view: I jumped through massive hurdles to
>> not only hide the bookmarks toolbar, but to eliminate it from my FF3.x
>> completely....
>>
>> I despise the thing...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> As to saving/gaining screenspace - I saw an ad yesterday.... for a 28"
> screen... so just who are the devs trying to kid ??
>
> reg
IF you have a widescreen monitor, then you might like a sidebar, but on
a small, say 10 inch, screen, it is NOT an option, at least unless you
want to spend half your online time scrolling sideways, as well as up
and down. Not my idea of fun.
Those who don't like the bookmarks toolbar are welcome to hide it, and
forego its usefulness. Just as I ignore the sidebar. But don't deprive
the rest of us of it!
David McRitchie
"Peter Boulding" wrote
> As a new user of Firefox, who is fast coming to appreciate it--now that I've
> found the add-ons that give me back Opera's must-have features--I couldn't
> agree more. It appears that no sooner have I decided to make it my default
> browser, Firefox--and for no obvious reason--is planning to jump the shark
> <goes to Tools > Options > Advanced and switches off auto-updating>
>
> Your comments re Excel 2007 are spot on. (BTW, I take it you are *that*
> David McRitchie?)
Thanks, and yes, I am.
With Firefox things probably won't get so out-of-hand, because there are
a lot of people watching the development process. Nevertheless, we do
have a horrible waste of space in the default toolbars, specifically empty
space above/below navigation bar and a huge back/forward button which
can be fixed with the "Stylish" extension and use of small style code changes.
There are lots of extensions and styles that will hide toolbars until you move
cursor past were they would be, so from looking at pictures it is hard to tell
what is actually planned. In general, I don't like things that jump around,
but will sometimes switch to disappearing toolbars as opposed to full
screen view.
Sometimes something better comes out of bad development before it actually
gets implemented. This one appears to be obviously targeted to the few
people who appear to be using Firefox without any extensions (and possibly
those who turn off tracking mechanisms).
The "Stylish" extension itself though has "jumped the shark" which is quite
unusual when the developer of a single developer application does that to
his own application.
EE
As far as the big toolbar buttons go, if you do not like the big ones,
you can use little ones. I don't see any problem there. I have not
seen much wasted space above or below the toolbar in most themes. There
is usually a small border there, but that is no big deal. My pet peeve
with some themes is that the authors put too much padding to right and
left of the button icon to make the button too wide, but I can fix that
by removing the excess padding.
scipio6
> Jack Gillis wrote:
> > I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar. I use it every time I load
> > Firefox. PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT. (Yes, I know I shouted!)
>
> And now for another point of view: I jumped through massive hurdles to
> not only hide the bookmarks toolbar, but to eliminate it from my FF3.x
> completely....
>
> I despise the thing...
>
>
> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
> Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
> ch...@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
>
> You always have freedom of choice, but you never have freedom of
> consequence.
Chris, you only have to add two little lines to your userChrome.css
and POOF! it's hidden.
What on earth is wrong with having the option to have the toolbar or
not?
The Real Bev
> On 07.08.2009 19:04, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused Chris Barnes
> to generate the following:? :
>> Jack Gillis wrote:
>>
>>> I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar. I use it every time I load
>>> Firefox. PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT. (Yes, I know I shouted!)
>>
>> And now for another point of view: I jumped through massive hurdles to
>> not only hide the bookmarks toolbar, but to eliminate it from my FF3.x
>> completely....
>>
>> I despise the thing...
>
> which is why I use the sidebar - far more efficient .
>
> As to saving/gaining screenspace - I saw an ad yesterday.... for a 28"
> screen... so just who are the devs trying to kid ??
Yeah! 23" ought to be good enough for everybody!
--
Cheers, Bev
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bender: And so I ask you this one question: Have you ever tried simply
turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?
Graham P Davis
>> As to saving/gaining screenspace - I saw an ad yesterday.... for a 28"
>> screen... so just who are the devs trying to kid ??
>
> Yeah! 23" ought to be good enough for everybody!
The way my eyesight's going, I reckon 28" won't be nearly big enough before
long.
--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks., UK. E-mail: newsman not newsboy
"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me."
Chris Barnes
> Chris, you only have to add two little lines to your userChrome.css
> and POOF! it's hidden.
> What on earth is wrong with having the option to have the toolbar or
> not?
Adding lines to a hard-to-find file isn't hard *for me* (once I know
what lines to add). But for the 400+ users I support, I suspect that
fewer than 5 would be able to handle this task without throwing their
hands on their head chanting
"oh woe is me".