So disappointed in TB3 :(
Ray Hughes
Major FOSS package has seen such a backwards step.
I have a few machines here :
2 desktops
1 XP pro with Outlook for compatibility with work
1 Ubuntu 8.04 With TB2 (Main PC)
1 Dual boot Sony laptop Vista premium and Ubuntu 9.10
The 9.10 on the laptop runs Evolution by default
The Vista was TB2 until week or so ago when I made the foolish error of
upgrading it to TB3.
Its not just the bugs of which I have reported several, its the whole
thing. The "design team" seem to gone for a totally new philosophy which
has just left many TB2 users totally bemused or just plain mad.
I confess that I am mainly a Gnome desktop man on Linux but use KDE as
well and the only other FOSS software that drove me this crazy was the
KDE 3.5 - 4.* farce.
My Future plans had included upgrading ALL of our systems here to TB but
that is certainly on the back burner for now.
Anyway I just felt the need to add my 2 cents worth of rant. Sorry.
Ray
Ron Hunter
there are still some quirks. My desktop system seems to absolutely
REFUSE to check my email on startup. It will check, and download, at 10
minute intervals, just fine, and the XP Netbook downloads on startup.
Funny thing is that the desktop profile was cloned from the Netbook
profile.
Other than that, the most annoying problem is that the 3 pane
arrangement keeps trying to come back every time I make any change, like
loading an add-on. I can deal with those little problems, but hope that
3.0.2 will correct them.
--
Ron Hunter -- rphu...@charter.net
Martin Jungowski
> Anyway I just felt the need to add my 2 cents worth of rant. Sorry.
It's a .0 release - what did you expect?
You can customize it and make it look and behave like its predecessor.
It's a bit work but it can be done. And rest assured that you're not the
only one disappointed by several design choices made by the Thunderbird
developers. For the first few weeks (been using it on and off since b4)
I couldn't stand it, and I'm still every now and then thinking about
reverting back to 2.x
Infact on our company servers we went back to 2.0.0.23 since even 3.0.1
proved completely unusable - crashes on close so users were not able to
open it again (thunderbird-bin still running, had to be killed manually
each time by our operating crew), some mails were unprintable because
the print dialog crashed, etc. It's a major catastrophe, and it'll have
a major impact on Thunderbird's reputation.
Martin
--
Rieke Computersysteme GmbH
Hellerholz 5
D-82061 Neuried
Email: mar...@rhm.de
HRB Muenchen 73617
Carey
delays while typing.
--
Steve
careystevens.blogspot.com
Carey
newsgroups, and there are periodic delays in typing and font switching
in mid-message.
--
Steve
careystevens.blogspot.com
Ron Hunter
While my problems weren't that major, I had a lot of trouble with the
3.0 release, but the 3.0.1 release is much more stable, and usable.
However, I certainly agree that it was not, and still is not, ready for
a public release. Pushing a product out too soon is about the worst
thing a software company can do.
Ron Hunter
Coke) prevents me from noticing anything about a slowdown with my
Netbook, and the dual core processor in my desktop makes delays
unlikely, but there have been times when it just 'goes away' for a
while. Not sure what behind that.
Mark Banner
> Infact on our company servers we went back to 2.0.0.23 since even 3.0.1
> proved completely unusable - crashes on close so users were not able to
> open it again (thunderbird-bin still running, had to be killed manually
> each time by our operating crew), some mails were unprintable because
> the print dialog crashed, etc. It's a major catastrophe, and it'll have
> a major impact on Thunderbird's reputation.
Whilst I've heard of the odd crash-on-shutdown issue, I've not heard of
significant issues. Likewise I've not heard of issues with print dialog
crashing.
Maybe you could encourage your server operators to get in contact with
us (via bugzilla would probably be the best option) about some of these
issues so that we can try and track them down? Having direct contact
with people seeing the issues is definitely useful in a lot of cases.
Standard8
Mark Banner
> Other than that, the most annoying problem is that the 3 pane
> arrangement keeps trying to come back every time I make any change, like
> loading an add-on. I can deal with those little problems, but hope that
> 3.0.2 will correct them.
What do you mean by "come back"? Do you mean the preview pane keeps
re-appearing?
Standard8
Phalbe Henriksen
company can do.
Microsoft's been doing it since forever! :)
Phalbe Henriksen
Ron Hunter
I don't use the preview pane, preferring to have a full size window for
reading my email, displaying images, etc. So, I turn off the preview
pane, but if the program ends in a crash (not common with 3.0.1), or I
load an add-on, it comes back up with the preview pane restored.
But, by far the most annoying 'feature' is that 3.0.1 always comes up
with the last account I used active, and I can't seem to change that
action. I want it to come up with my email account open, and it would
be really nice if I could figure out why my desktop machine (W7) won't
check my email on startup.
Ron Hunter
Yes. That's true, but in order to not have the problem, one has to give
up about 90% of the support in hardware, software, and users.
JoeS
> and it would be really nice if I could figure out why my desktop machine (W7) won't check my email on startup.
Under Account Setting>>Server Settings
Do you have both options checked:
Check for new messages at startup
And
Automatically download new messages.
As I recall, the later is also required.
--
JoeS Using TB3
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_3.0_-_New_Features_and_Changes
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Thunderbird/Thunderbird_Binaries
Pete Holsberg
> On 1/31/2010 9:35 AM, Phalbe Henriksen wrote:
> > Pushing a product out too soon is about the worst thing a software
> > company can do.
>
> up about 90% of the support in hardware, software, and users.
Define "too soon"? At what point is a program debugged "enough"?
Ron Hunter
> On 1/31/2010 11:25 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:
>> and it would be really nice if I could figure out why my desktop
>> machine (W7) won't check my email on startup.
>
> Under Account Setting>>Server Settings
> Do you have both options checked:
> Check for new messages at startup
> And
> Automatically download new messages.
> As I recall, the later is also required.
>
restartings, and resetting both. No effect.
Larry Sheldon
>> Anyway I just felt the need to add my 2 cents worth of rant. Sorry.
>
> It's a .0 release - what did you expect?
I expected to be able to come here of information, to make complaints,
to ask questions, and so on.
I did not expect to be dumped on, to be belittled, to have my form and
format attacked, to be the recipient of insults, and finally, I did not
expect be censored and my postings deleted when I complained about the
insults.
>
> You can customize it and make it look and behave like its predecessor.
> It's a bit work but it can be done. And rest assured that you're not the
> only one disappointed by several design choices made by the Thunderbird
Th only approved behavior is to welcome all the damage done and say
thank you, respectfully and adoringly.
On the other hand, I will be searching for replacements, or will at last
admit defeat and learn to get along with the "Industry Standard"
Microsoft products.
Larry Sheldon
Definitely want to get rid of the support of customers^Wusers
--
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to
take everything you have."
Remember: The Ark was built by amateurs, the Titanic by professionals.
Requiescas in pace o email
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio
Eppure si rinfresca
ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
JoeS
I'm sorry that I didn't see any inappropriate responses, or deletions in your participation in this thread.
"Big Brother" google groups doesn't show any posts there that have been deleted here.
http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.thunderbird/browse_thread/thread/c884199edcdafdd5/0f04299a09496970#0f04299a09496970
Anyhow, you are welcome to expand on your assertions in mozilla.general
cross-posted and follow-up set to general.
There is nothing wrong with dissent in the the direction of development, as a matter of fact, alternative opinions
should be welcomed. If that's not the case, then the community concept is gone.
Clunker
Ray Hughes
> On 31/01/2010 7:54 AM, Ray Hughes wrote:
>> I have to say it has been many years since a major version upgrade of a
>> Major FOSS package has seen such a backwards step.
>>
>>
>>
> Lighten up Ray - TB 3 is great - GREAT I tell you!
GRIN - I am sure it "Will" be Clunker. Thank you.
XS11E
> I have to say it has been many years since a major version upgrade
> of a Major FOSS package has seen such a backwards step.
> Anyway I just felt the need to add my 2 cents worth of rant.
> Sorry.
I'm delighted that TB2 is still available, like you I was unhappy with
TB3 and not because of anything wrong with it, I never ran it! I was
unhappy because for whatever reasons, the add-ons I need have not been
updated.
--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
XS11E
> Ray Hughes <r...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I have to say it has been many years since a major version
>> upgrade of a Major FOSS package has seen such a backwards step.
>
>> Anyway I just felt the need to add my 2 cents worth of rant.
>> Sorry.
>
> I'm delighted that TB2 is still available, like you I was unhappy
> with TB3 and not because of anything wrong with it, I never ran
> it! I was unhappy because for whatever reasons, the add-ons I
> need have not been updated.
Ooops, meant to add: I deleted it as soon as I found that the Header
Tools Extension and several others would not run in TB3. I'll try it
again when updates are available.
Arivald
> On 1/31/2010 5:37 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:
> I don't have either of Ron's problems, but I do occasionally notice
> delays while typing.
Yes, I have this problem too...
TB3 seems to be published a bit early...
--
Arivald
Man-wai Chang to The Door (24000bps)
> that is certainly on the back burner for now.
>
> Anyway I just felt the need to add my 2 cents worth of rant. Sorry.
I suggest start a *NEW* profile for TB 3 given your complaints. Remember
to backup your profiles first.
--
@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY.
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you!
/( _ )\ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.32.7
^ ^ 18:48:01 up 2 days 2:54 1 user load average: 1.16 1.18 1.13
嚙踝蕭嚙褕貸! 嚙踝蕭嚙畿嚙瘤! 嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭! 嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭! 嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙確! 嚙踝蕭嚙諛梧蕭! 嚙請考慮嚙踐援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa
Torsten Villnow
Have you also choosen to include the account for checking on new mails
under "Server Settings / Advanced"? (I am not sure about the correct
terms, as I have got the German version of TB installed)
--
Torsten Villnow
Wayne Mery
It may be related to the server you are using, because we don't have
widespread shutdown hangs. Although several do exist. We could
certainly use your help in determining why they happen for your
installation. You can use the procedure at
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Testing:Shutdown_Hang
--
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Testing
http://www.spreadthunderbird.com/aff/165/
Ron Hunter
>> My Future plans had included upgrading ALL of our systems here to TB but
>> that is certainly on the back burner for now.
>>
>> Anyway I just felt the need to add my 2 cents worth of rant. Sorry.
>
> I suggest start a *NEW* profile for TB 3 given your complaints. Remember
> to backup your profiles first.
>
I agree. A completely new profile, retaining ONLY my sent, and inbox
files, with my passwords, got rid of periodic index file corruption
issues for me, making it possible to use TB3, although there are still a
few quirks, like not being able to click 'next' to get to the next
unread message after replying to a message.
Man-wai Chang to The Door (24000bps)
> files, with my passwords, got rid of periodic index file corruption
> issues for me, making it possible to use TB3, although there are still a
> few quirks, like not being able to click 'next' to get to the next
> unread message after replying to a message.
In fact, the new profile approach should be considered when there is a
major version upgrade (e.g., from 1.x to 2.x, from 2.x to 3.x,....)
--
@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY.
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you!
/( _ )\ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.32.7
^ ^ 15:52:01 up 2 days 23:58 2 users load average: 1.06 1.16 1.19
david foster
On 1/31/2010 6:54 AM, Ray Hughes wrote:
>
> Its not just the bugs of which I have reported several, its the whole
> thing. The "design team" seem to gone for a totally new philosophy which
> has just left many TB2 users totally bemused or just plain mad.
>
> I confess that I am mainly a Gnome desktop man on Linux but use KDE as
> well and the only other FOSS software that drove me this crazy was the
> KDE 3.5 - 4.* farce.
>
> My Future plans had included upgrading ALL of our systems here to TB but
> that is certainly on the back burner for now.
>
>
>
>
I have to say, I haven't experienced any of the problems I hear people
complaining about. Thunderbird 3.0 here, all's well. I haven't upgraded
beyond that because I understand Lightning isn't compatible, so I'm
happy to wait a bit.
Anyway, here's one happy T'bird user.. frankly, the visual changes I
see are pretty minor and it took me no time to get used to 3.0...
And truth is, I'm trying to figure out just how to get everybody here
off of their silly Outlook addiction! No new employees get the option of
using Outlook.. it's the old timers; you know, the ones who have no
idea how to use the capabilities of Outlook, but insist they must have
it? :)
So. Congratulations TB team..
David
ps - oh, WinXP SP3, numerous Extensions, including Lightning 1.0b2pre,
Dell Precision W/S 370, P4, 2gb RAM, etc, etc..
--
David Foster, CNE
Nashville - The Music City
Mike Easter
> Ray Hughes wrote:
>>
>> Its not just the bugs of which I have reported several, its the whole
>> thing.
> I have to say, I haven't experienced any of the problems I hear people
> complaining about.
Maybe you are experiencing Tbird3 problems you haven't noticed yet.
> Thunderbird 3.0 here, all's well.
All is not well with your Tbird 3's handling of format=flowed, often
abbreviated f=f. It is a stripper; while Tbird 2 was a proper f=f.
Basically there are 4 kinds of EOL handling by newsreaders, full f=f,
trailing spaces, no spaces, and strippers as regards the RFC 3676.
Full f=f means that f=f is announced in the header and trailing spaces
are placed and the trailing spaces of others are respected.
Trailing spaces means that f=f is *not* announced in the header, but
that the trailing spaces placement and respect are the same as full f=f.
No spaces means that f=f isn't announced, trailing spaces aren't placed
in the post, but that preexisting trailing spaces are respected.
Strippers means the agent doesn't place trailing spaces and 'goes to the
trouble' of stripping the trailing spaces of those agents which have
placed them.
Trailing spaces placement and respect are essential to compliance with
RFC 3676 (previously 2646). Tbird 3 has messed it all up; whereas
Tbird 2 was much better behaved.
Ray Hughes posted with Pan which placed trailing spaces but did not
announce f=f in the header. If I reply to RH with Tbird 2, it will
respect the Pan trailing spaces and also place my own. However, it will
not display the Pan's citation as f=f because of the lack of header.
But david foster's Tbird 3 *disrespected* Ray Hughes trailing spaces and
stripped them out. Whenever anything else comes along which could
handle trailing spaces citations 'graciously' it will have been ruined
by the stripping which Tbird 3 did.
> Anyway, here's one happy T'bird user..
Just because you don't know that your Tbird has regressed doesn't mean
that it hasn't.
--
Mike Easter
responder
you cited, could you please post a few examples so at least I can
understand what is happening, and maybe explain what effects this has if
one is not aware.?
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> Trailing spaces placement and respect are essential to compliance with
>> RFC 3676 (previously 2646). Tbird 3 has messed it all up; whereas Tbird
>> 2 was much better behaved.
>> But david foster's Tbird 3 *disrespected* Ray Hughes trailing spaces and
>> stripped them out.
>> Just because you don't know that your Tbird has regressed doesn't mean
>> that it hasn't.
>>
>>
> For those of us who either don't see or are not aware of the problems
> you cited, could you please post a few examples so at least I can
> understand what is happening, and maybe explain what effects this has if
> one is not aware.?
You just posted an example.
I posted with Tbird 2's f=f and my EOLs had trailing spaces. My Tbird 2
also *announced* f=f in the headers.
Then along came your Tbird 3 and disrespected my trailing spaces and
stripped them out, very RFC 3676 noncompliantly.
You can examine my message (that you subsequently replied to) by using
your ctrl-U to examine the/my message source. You can use your cursor
on the source to see the trailing spaces of the lines which do not end
paragraphs.
Then, you can examine *your* message (that cited mine) with ctrl-U again
and see that my lines which do not end paragraphs no longer have the
trailing spaces because your Tbird 3 stripped them out. It/Your tbird3
should not do that.
--
Mike Easter
goodwin
I've noticed that f=f is a bug up your butt lately. Personally, I
haven't a clue about what this is about - could that be cause I using TB
2? Anyway, I fail to see anything amiss - the 2 posts you suggest
looking at appear the same to me. What am I missing?
Stanimir Stamenkov
> For those of us who either don't see or are not aware of the problems
> you cited, could you please post a few examples so at least I can
> understand what is happening, and maybe explain what effects this has if
> one is not aware.?
I've disabled sending in f=f (while still viewing o.k.) for number
of bugs:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448198
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=456053
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=519165
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=519471
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=536670
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=541978
--
Stanimir
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter scribbled:
>> I posted with Tbird 2's f=f and my EOLs had trailing spaces. My Tbird 2
>> also *announced* f=f in the headers.
>>
>> Then along came your Tbird 3 and disrespected my trailing spaces and
>> stripped them out, very RFC 3676 noncompliantly.
> I've noticed that f=f is a bug up your butt lately.
Yes.
> Personally, I
> haven't a clue about what this is about - could that be cause I using TB
> 2?
Your tbird2 which is posting *without* f=f headers and without trailing
spaces (classed as no spaces in my characterization) is an example of an
agent which is still *respecting* my post's trailing spaces. Thus Tbird
2 is good even when it is not f=f and Tbird 3 is bad even when it *IS*
supposed to be f=f.
The business of agents which strip the trailing spaces of others is an
agent which is 'anti-3676'. Tbird3 is supposed to be f=f or 'pro-3676'
definitely not anti-3676.
> Anyway, I fail to see anything amiss - the 2 posts you suggest
> looking at appear the same to me. What am I missing?
I gave explicit instructions in another post about how to see the
trailing space problem using ctrl-U on a post by post basis.
If you want to research the basis for the RFC 3676 and RFC 2646 before
it, you should go read those RFCs. It isn't something I can express in
a few lines here.
--
Mike Easter
Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter
replacing them, I assume, with a soft return? What's the significance?
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
> So you see some value to to those spaces that TB3 just leave out,
> replacing them, I assume, with a soft return? What's the significance?
If you are going to discuss the issue of what the trailing spaces are
all about, you should start by reading the RFCs, eg 3676; see below.
Before 3676, RFC 2646 was written in 1999. Its successor 3676 was
written in 2004.
The format=flowed properties and problems of Tbird have been discussed
in places such as bugzilla since 2002 or earlier
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168420 Bug 168420 - We
need Format=Flowed Evangelization
That thread runs from 2002 thru' 2009.
Moz has a format=flowed minifaq to explain how f=f works written in 2003
https://bug168420.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=134270
Mozilla: Format=Flowed Mini-FAQ
A more recent faq is here http://joeclark.org/ffaq.html The
format=flowed FAQ
RFC 3676 is here http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3676.txt The Text/Plain
Format and DelSp Parameters
This is not a new idea. Tbird 2 made good progress. Tbird 3 is a
regression to the dark ages before f=f. I have no idea when the
developers of tbird3 completely lost it with respect to tbird's
responsibilities to rfc 3676 and f=f.
Other newsreaders which don't even acknowledge f=f are doing a better
job of handling the issues of rfc 3676 than tbird3 which is
hypocritically stamping it in its headers as a baldfaced noncompliant lie.
To my mind, the development of tbird 3 in this f=f area is totally
incompetent.
--
Mike Easter
goodwin
> goodwin wrote:
>> Mike Easter scribbled:
>
<snip>
>
>> Anyway, I fail to see anything amiss - the 2 posts you suggest
>> looking at appear the same to me. What am I missing?
>
> I gave explicit instructions in another post about how to see the
> trailing space problem using ctrl-U on a post by post basis.
And I followed those instructions explicitly and saw no difference in
the formatting of the posts.
What am I supposed to see?
>
> If you want to research the basis for the RFC 3676 and RFC 2646 before
> it, you should go read those RFCs. It isn't something I can express in
> a few lines here.
>
>
I'm not a RFC reader but I'll take a look...well, thats 30 mins. of my
life I won't get back.
So far, haven't ascertained much of the basis for 3676 outside of uRL
splitting, line length >80, and sig delims.
Are you addressing any of these?
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter scribbled:
>> goodwin wrote:
>>> Mike Easter scribbled:
>>
>> trailing space problem using ctrl-U on a post by post basis.
>
> And I followed those instructions explicitly and saw no difference in
> the formatting of the posts.
I have no power over what you are or are not capable of seeing after
I've spent time explaining how to see what you can see with you own eyes.
> What am I supposed to see?
Trailing spaces or their absence, depending.
>> If you want to research the basis for the RFC 3676 and RFC 2646 before
>> it, you should go read those RFCs. It isn't something I can express in
>> a few lines here.
> I'm not a RFC reader but I'll take a look...well, thats 30 mins. of my
> life I won't get back.
I don't care one way or the other whether you read the RFCs or if you
already know what they say or if you consider the time to know what is
going on lost time or not or whether you continue to respond in this
thread or not.
I have no idea why you are whining about not knowing what is going on.
If you don't understand or don't want to understand, then drop out.
Your absence in this thread won't bother me one way or the other.
> So far, haven't ascertained much of the basis for 3676 outside of uRL
> splitting, line length>80, and sig delims.
What is your point?
> Are you addressing any of these?
I'm addressing tbird3's inability to comply with its intentions to be
f=f according to rfc3676. It did very well in tbird2. It completely
failed in spite of the fact that it made 'revisions' in f=f in tbird3.
Mike Easter
<snip>
Incidentally, I am able to determine, whether you are or not, that your
agent is a tbird2, and that you are configured to not be f=f, which is
optional, and that because you are tbird2 and configured to not f=f,
that your tbird2 nonf=f (still) properly respects the trailing spaces of
my currently tbird3.0.1 in f=f configuration, while at the same time
your own posting is made with no trailing spaces correctly so.
If you were to follow my ctrl-U instructions properly, you would also be
able to see all of that.
goodwin
> Trailing spaces or their absence, depending.
control-u doesn't indicate spaces other than as white space.
> I don't care one way or the other whether you read the RFCs or if you
> already know what they say or if you consider the time to know what is
> going on lost time or not or whether you continue to respond in this
> thread or not.
>
> I have no idea why you are whining about not knowing what is going on.
> If you don't understand or don't want to understand, then drop out.
I thought I was trying to understand and was not whining.
> Your absence in this thread won't bother me one way or the other.
sorry you are having a bad f-f day, but I don't seem to be alone in
asking what the noise is about.
>
>> So far, haven't ascertained much of the basis for 3676 outside of uRL
>> splitting, line length>80, and sig delims.
>
> What is your point?
just trying to figure out yours
>
>> Are you addressing any of these?
<snip non answer to a specific question>
lighten up, ME
Mike Easter
> On 02/04/2010 07:24 PM Mike Easter scribbled:
>
>> Trailing spaces or their absence, depending.
>
> control-u doesn't indicate spaces other than as white space.
That white space is the trailng space of which I speak.
> I thought I was trying to understand and was not whining.
OK.
> lighten up, ME
Don't try to burden me with your concept of whether or not your knowing
or not knowing what a RFC says requires spending any of your time or
mine either while you discuss your time with me.
I'm presently assessing whether or not this newest v. of Tbird 3.0.1 for
Win might be working better than the previous versions of tbird3 which I
have observed here and elsewhere - win versions and mac versions.
--
Mike Easter
goodwin
> Don't try to burden me with your concept of whether or not your knowing
> or not knowing what a RFC says requires spending any of your time or
> mine either while you discuss your time with me.
must be either the Chargers performance or the recent rain....
Remember Holden Caulfield?
LuKreme
> It's a .0 release - what did you expect?
It's a 3.0 product release though. I certainly was not expecting the
instability nor the ... well, crappy UI to put it bluntly.
I agree with the OP, TB3 seems like a big step backwards.
John Corliss
I disagree. I was able to tweak the settings until the main difference
is that tabs are available. Search capabilities are vastly improved as
is (and my sincere thanks to the developers for this) usenet filtering.
IMO, version 3 is a great step forward.
--
John Corliss
Mike Easter
> LuKreme wrote:
>> I agree with the OP, TB3 seems like a big step backwards.
>
> I disagree. I was able to tweak the settings until the main difference
> is that tabs are available. Search capabilities are vastly improved as
> is (and my sincere thanks to the developers for this) usenet filtering.
>
> IMO, version 3 is a great step forward.
I'm beginning to think that the f=f regression problems seen going from
2 to 3 may have been fixed in 3.0.1 in the windows version.
It looks to me like this reply using a win 3.0.1 f=f replying to a win
3.0.1 f=f is doing what it is supposed to. I'll see if it 'sticks'
after I send.
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
> I'm beginning to think that the f=f regression problems seen going from
> 2 to 3 may have been fixed in 3.0.1 in the windows version.
Wrong; absolutely wrong. The problem persists.
> It looks to me like this reply using a win 3.0.1 f=f replying to a win
> 3.0.1 f=f is doing what it is supposed to. I'll see if it 'sticks'
> after I send.
Nope. 3.0.1 is still b0rken. My reply stripped the trailing spaces
from JC's par/s. The/His spaces were there in his citation while I was
editing my reply, but they disappeared after the send.
Now I'm back to a linux 2.0.0.23 which looks the same - re the citation
spaces - during the editing, but those spaces will persist after the
send in this v.
--
Mike Easter
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Calm down for cripes sake ... File a bug, that's why bugzilla is
available. You're wasting your time (politely spoken) here in a
"support" group. ;-)
--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Mike, you're in a support group speaking developer-speak to
non-developers (users) that are trying to understand the issue you're
presenting. Back up a bit and with that in mind, simplify your issue so
that "users" can participate and comment. Thanks :-)
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> I'm addressing tbird3's inability to comply with its intentions to be
>> f=f according to rfc3676.
> Calm down for cripes sake ... File a bug, that's why bugzilla is
> available. You're wasting your time (politely spoken) here in a
> "support" group. ;-)
OK.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=544471 Bug 544471 -
format=flowed strips trailing spaces in citations
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> I'm presently assessing whether or not this newest v. of Tbird 3.0.1 for
>> Win might be working better than the previous versions of tbird3 which I
>> have observed here and elsewhere - win versions and mac versions.
> Mike, you're in a support group speaking developer-speak to
> non-developers (users) that are trying to understand the issue you're
> presenting. Back up a bit and with that in mind, simplify your issue so
> that "users" can participate and comment. Thanks :-)
The participants in news.software.readers didn't have any problem
following these same issues, and very few - almost none - of them were
using either Tbird 2 or 3.
In fact, the helpful participation with various agents there revealed
that quite a number of other agents which do not claim to be f=f perform
perfectly well at posting with trailing spaces as well as respecting
preexisting trailing spaces. ie RFC 2646/3676 compliant.
The new Win Lanikai 3.1a1 is still very much b0rken.
--
Mike Easter
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
We're not in news.software.readers ... You have "some" users that don't
understand that posted such and I can guarantee you that there are many
"readers" that aren't posting that don't understand the issue either.
Address those that request to simplify the issue. The whole idea in a
support group is to simply issues enough so that the entire community
understands, is able to intelligently comment and possibly lend a hand
in solving the issue a bit quicker. Isn't that what "we" are after?
Ray Hughes
That's why ya gotta love FOSS, you can be happy with TB3 I can be not so
happy with TB3. It hasn't cost any of us a dime. :)
I would also like to thank ALL at Mozilla for the terrific work and I am
sure that soon I will be much happier with TB3 too.
Have a great day all.
--
Ray
LuKreme
> Mike, you're in a support group speaking developer-speak to non-
> developers (users) that are trying to understand the issue you're
> presenting. Back up a bit and with that in mind, simplify your issue
> so that "users" can participate and comment. Thanks :-)
I thought Mile was perfectly clear and I have also been frustrated by
the seeming lack of comprehension on this.
It's very sime, TB3 breaks f=f. It not only doesn't honor it, it
actively destroys it. If this is not important to you, that's one
thing. If you can't look at lines and see that trailing spaces are
removed and can't read the RFC and claim this is mikes fault? That's
something else.
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm presently assessing whether or not this newest v. of Tbird 3.0.1
>>>> for
>>>> Win might be working better than the previous versions of tbird3
>>>> which I
>>>> have observed here and elsewhere - win versions and mac versions.
Notice the result above caused by the improper handling of soft break
EOLs. That illustrates what I call shortlines; what RFC 3676 calls
'embarassing line wrap'. That shouldn't be happening.
>> The participants in news.software.readers didn't have any problem
>> following these same issues,
>> quite a number of other agents which do not claim to be f=f perform
>> perfectly well at posting with trailing spaces as well as respecting
>> preexisting trailing spaces. ie RFC 2646/3676 compliant.
> We're not in news.software.readers ...
I don't consider those who read and post here to be 'inferior' to those
who read and post to nsr. This is another newsgroup focusing on issues
which relate to its topic -- this tbird group is about tbird; the nsr
group is about various newsreaders including tbird as well as about how
editors format and reformat.
> You have "some" users that don't
> understand that posted such and I can guarantee you that there are many
> "readers" that aren't posting that don't understand the issue either.
If we discuss something, more people will understand. The business of
conveying and idea and someone understanding is a bilateral process;
some of the work falls on the conveyer/poster and some of the work falls
onto the reader.
Anyone who wants to 'get into' this idea needs to become familiar with
what it is about if they aren't already. Alternatively they can remain
oblivious to the fact that their Tbird is default configured to f=f and
what that really means in terms of plaintext handling. Personally I
think they should find out what is going on.
> Address those that request to simplify the issue.
The best way to simplify the issue is to refer to the pages which
describe it in detail both simplistically and complexly. I've done
that. I don't believe that this is the place to paste all of the pages
which I've linked to.
> The whole idea in a
> support group is to simply issues enough so that the entire community
> understands, is able to intelligently comment and possibly lend a hand
> in solving the issue a bit quicker. Isn't that what "we" are after?
The web support pages for tbird refer to the newsgroups as a place to
discuss problems. This is an excellent place to elaborate on problems
and to discuss them and to expand upon them.
The developers are supposed to keep up with what is going on in these
support groups.
A person who finds and discusses a problem in here shouldn't even have
to mess with the bug pages. Personally I prefer discussing problems in
newsgroups, not with a web browser in a web forum.
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm presently assessing whether or not this newest v. of Tbird 3.0.1
>>>> for
>>>> Win might be working better than the previous versions of tbird3
>>>> which I
>>>> have observed here and elsewhere - win versions and mac versions.
This part got fixed when I cited it with 2.0.0.23. It displayed as
shortlines during editing but after posting the shortlines were
repaired. This will illustrate if 3.1a1 will fix it.
--
Mike Easter
responder
Mike...
It appears that maybe you are pulling on the wrong end of the rope.
Not everyone cares about formatting and perfect text handling and such,
as Jay indicated.
I've used every iteration of Netscape since the beginning and will
probably continue to do so until the end of my days.
I would guess that the greater majority of users use their browsers and
email/news group clients for just those purposes. Although I build my
own PCs and have been doing this for 20 years, I am not a developer, nor
do I expect anything but good functionality, and when I have the rare
problem that I can't solve myself, I come to the forum..Isn't that its
purpose?
I'm sure your points are well taken, but maybe there should be some sort
of developer/advanced forum for your depth of discussion. That in itself
would un-clutter the forums for ordinary users and keep the rhetoric
away from those who are actually pleased and grateful for programs such
as these that are totally "FREE."
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> The web support pages for tbird refer to the newsgroups as a place to
>> discuss problems. This is an excellent place to elaborate on problems
>> and to discuss them and to expand upon them.
>>
>> The developers are supposed to keep up with what is going on in these
>> support groups.
>>
>> A person who finds and discusses a problem in here shouldn't even have
>> to mess with the bug pages. Personally I prefer discussing problems in
>> newsgroups, not with a web browser in a web forum.
>>
>>
>
> Mike...
>
> It appears that maybe you are pulling on the wrong end of the rope.
I disagree. This is a tbird 'issues' group. This is a place where we
can discuss what we like and what we don't like about tbird. And
especially a regression issue, in which tbird 2 was much better than
tbird 3.
> Not everyone cares about formatting and perfect text handling and such,
> as Jay indicated.
Guess what? I don't care about some of the tbird problems which others
are discussing in here! So what?! Different people care about
different problems.
This isn't just a configuration problem which can be configured away.
> I've used every iteration of Netscape since the beginning and will
> probably continue to do so until the end of my days.
I don't see what that has to do with anything. I didn't use netscape at
all. I was partial to OE the offspring of IE6 SP1 because I was using
Win98se and couldn't advance to the IE6 SP2 which required XP.
I had no use for netscape anything. I don't think that discussion
pertains here.
> I would guess that the greater majority of users use their browsers and
> email/news group clients for just those purposes.
Errrmmm. What you just said means nothing as far as I can tell.
> Although I build my
> own PCs and have been doing this for 20 years, I am not a developer, nor
> do I expect anything but good functionality, and when I have the rare
> problem that I can't solve myself, I come to the forum..Isn't that its
> purpose?
I presume when you use the word 'forum' you are speaking about this
newsgroup. This newsgroup is a place where people can come ask
questions and get answers which may help them know if a problem can be
solved by reconfiguring.
It is also a place where people can discuss problems which *can't* be
solved by reconfiguring -- that makes it also a place where the
developers are supposed to be reading so that they can find out what is
wrong with tbird; what the bugs are that need to be stamped out.
The developers have a responsibility to know when problems are being
discussed in this newsgroup which need to be fixed by developers. If
developers like to use webpages and mailing lists to discuss problems,
then let them use webforums and mailing lists, but I'm going to discuss
my problems and try to give answers when I can, in newsgroups like this one.
> I'm sure your points are well taken, but maybe there should be some sort
> of developer/advanced forum for your depth of discussion.
The developers need to pay attention to what is going on in here. This
group isn't just inhabited by people who just found a newsreader or a
mailuser agent. There are newbs and there are experienced and all kinds
of intermediates in here.
> That in itself
> would un-clutter the forums for ordinary users and keep the rhetoric
> away from those who are actually pleased and grateful for programs such
> as these that are totally "FREE."
This newsgroup -- not forum -- isn't cluttered.
--
Mike Easter
Chris Ilias
> I disagree. This is a tbird 'issues' group. This is a place where we can
> discuss what we like and what we don't like about tbird. And especially
> a regression issue, in which tbird 2 was much better than tbird 3.
Mike,
Could you please take the time to read the forum etiquette page at
<http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html>. In particular, there
is a section dedicated to using bugzilla for bug reports, not these
newsgroups.
This newsgroup is for users to hep each other in their use of
Thunderbird. It's usually not that big of a deal, but I don't want
people to get the wrong impression of the purpose of this newsgroup.
--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
Keeper of the Knowledge Base: <https://support.mozilla.com/kb/>
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Wrong attribution, I didn't write that.
Ron Hunter
understand what your point regarding format flowed IS. My display flows
properly, no matter what I do with the width of the window. Beats me
entirely what you are so upset about. But since you are not making your
point, and refuse to explain what you mean so others can understand, I
have added you to my filters.
Good luck shouting to the wilderness.
Ron Hunter
have been running 3.01 since it came out. It looks like the format
flows properly no matter what I do with my window width.
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> It looks to me like this reply using a win 3.0.1 f=f replying to a win
>> 3.0.1 f=f is doing what it is supposed to. I'll see if it 'sticks' after
>> I send.
The trailing spaces didn't stick - as I feared above; they were
stripped. 3.0.1 f=f is broken as is the beta 3.1a1
> Maybe that is why I can't understand what you are complaining about. I
> have been running 3.01 since it came out. It looks like the format
> flows properly no matter what I do with my window width.
This isn't about window width per se. This isn't about the display, per
se. This is about what happens to the soft line breaks in citations
quoted in tbird3. They are not handled according to the RFC and
according to the intentions of f=f tbird developers. It is a bug. It
is a deep bug which goes to the core which changed after tbird2.
As much as I hate conversing in bugzilla webforum, that's where I am.
They understand. There is a patch but I don't understand what to do
with it.
--
Mike Easter
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
You'd be much better off by posting your issue in:
mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird
Good luck.
pen
much more appropriate. This is a support group. Populated by
users with much more mundane problems, most of whom have no
idea and no interest in whatever it is you're talking about.
Zar Zifodow
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>> Mike Easter wrote:
> The trailing spaces didn't stick - as I feared above; they were
> stripped. 3.0.1 f=f is broken as is the beta 3.1a1
You know, Mike, that totally sucks. I feel your pain. I don't know how
you can live with the broken f=f. Tell you what, I'll tell you how to
fix it if you tell me how to get newsgroups to open collapsed. How's
that for a trade? Don't anyone be telling me about a bug that's two
years old, I know about it. At least you could gimmick it in config in
TBird 2.
Zar
Roy Smith
> responder wrote:
>> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>>> The web support pages for tbird refer to the newsgroups as a place to
>>> discuss problems. This is an excellent place to elaborate on problems
>>> and to discuss them and to expand upon them.
>>>
>>> The developers are supposed to keep up with what is going on in these
>>> support groups.
>>>
>>> A person who finds and discusses a problem in here shouldn't even have
>>> to mess with the bug pages. Personally I prefer discussing problems in
>>> newsgroups, not with a web browser in a web forum.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Mike...
>>
>> It appears that maybe you are pulling on the wrong end of the rope.
>
> I disagree. This is a tbird 'issues' group. This is a place where we
> can discuss what we like and what we don't like about tbird. And
> especially a regression issue, in which tbird 2 was much better than
> tbird 3.
Yes this is a newsgroup to discuss issues with Thunderbird, and how to
fix or work around them. So is this something that the average user can
fix? If so how? If the fix requires rewriting code, then shouldn't
this be discussed in a developers forum instead?
--
Roy Smith
Windows 7 Home Premium
Timestamp: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:14:56 PM
Roy Smith
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:42, Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike, you're in a support group speaking developer-speak to
>> presenting. Back up a bit and with that in mind, simplify your issue
>> so that "users" can participate and comment. Thanks :-)
>
> I thought Mile was perfectly clear and I have also been frustrated by
> the seeming lack of comprehension on this.
>
> It's very sime, TB3 breaks f=f. It not only doesn't honor it, it
> actively destroys it. If this is not important to you, that's one thing.
> If you can't look at lines and see that trailing spaces are removed and
> can't read the RFC and claim this is mikes fault? That's something else.
I think I understand the problem being discussed, but I ask you. Is
this something that the average user can fix, either by using an add-on
or adjusting a setting? If the fix involves rewriting code, then
shouldn't it be discussed in a developer newsgroup instead?
--
Roy Smith
Windows 7 Home Premium
Timestamp: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:20:50 PM
Ken Whiton
*-* In Article <JuKdnd9VU9hdCPHW...@mozilla.org>,
*-* Ron Hunter wrote
*-* About Re: So disappointed in TB3 :(
> On 2/5/2010 10:08 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> The whole idea in a
>>> support group is to simply issues enough so that the entire
>>> community understands, is able to intelligently comment and
>>> possibly lend a hand in solving the issue a bit quicker. Isn't
>>> that what "we" are after?
>
>> The web support pages for tbird refer to the newsgroups as a place
>> to discuss problems. This is an excellent place to elaborate on
>> problems and to discuss them and to expand upon them.
>>
>> The developers are supposed to keep up with what is going on in
>> these support groups.
>>
>> A person who finds and discusses a problem in here shouldn't even
>> have to mess with the bug pages. Personally I prefer discussing
>> problems in newsgroups, not with a web browser in a web forum.
>
> While I completely agree with your last statement, I can't even
> begin to understand what your point regarding format flowed IS. My
> display flows properly, no matter what I do with the width of the
> window. Beats me entirely what you are so upset about.
The problem isn't with flow/wrap of original text, but with
flow/wrap of quoted text. Mike's original text in the post you
replied to was flowed/wrapped properly, but your (TB's) quote of it
wasn't. Instead, it was hard-wrapped to (probably) the width of your
Compose window.
Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: kenw...@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)
Ken Whiton
*-* In Article <X6-dnTdfk9qiIfHW...@mozilla.org>,
*-* Mike Easter wrote
*-* About Re: So disappointed in TB3 :(
[ ... ]
> As much as I hate conversing in bugzilla webforum, that's where I
> am. They understand. There is a patch but I don't understand what
> to do with it.
AIUI, patches posted to Bugzilla are developer-level patches to
be applied to the source code, not user-level patches to be applied to
compiled executables.
Ron Hunter
Not here, it wasn't. It seems wrapped/flowed to the original width,
unless my window was set smaller. In any case, none of the data had any
left-overs, or improperly wrapped, or indicated parts in the quoted
data, regardless of how narrow, or wide, I made my window. To me, that
is what it should look like. I think Mike is arguing about how many
angles can dance on the head of a pin.
Bob Jamieson
Yes, echo on what pen and Jay are saying.
I am one of those people who doesn't completely understand what ME is
saying. It seems like this is just a cosmetic issue (and if that's
incorrect, it goes along with what I just said . . . I don't understand
ME's issue).
Question (for ME in particular): Does this defect in TB3 have any
consequences, other than cosmetic, that would make my ng/email postings
be unreadable (that is, if I used TB3 . . . more on that in a second)?
If so, then I need to learn more about this f=f stuff.
If not, and it's only cosmetic or some "violation" of an inconsequential
standard, then I can get on to more important things.
Right now, it's wayyyyy down my list of priorities. But if you, ME,
think this is something that will have an impact on the average user
(that would be me and a lot of others), then maybe I'd better bump this
up on my priority list.
BTW, I'm using 2.0.0.23 (Ubuntu Karmic) and plan to stay at 2.0.0.23 for
a while yet, so as I understand what you're saying, this is much ado
about nothing for me anyway. But since I will someday go to 3.x, should
I be worried about this?
BJ
--
Bob Jamieson
Remove the "no spam" before replying via email
Mike Easter
> Question (for ME in particular): Does this defect in TB3 have any
> consequences, other than cosmetic, that would make my ng/email postings
> be unreadable (that is, if I used TB3 . . . more on that in a second)?
> If so, then I need to learn more about this f=f stuff.
>
> If not, and it's only cosmetic or some "violation" of an inconsequential
> standard, then I can get on to more important things.
During a string of replies to replies in newsgroups, if the conversation
is taking place in flowed, then the formatting of the line wraps of the
successive citations is progressively adjusted. In order for this
adjustment to take place, it is necessary that the trailing spaces (at
the ends of the cited lines which don't end paragraphs) be
maintained/preserved.
If Tbird3 strips the trailing spaces from preceding citations, then it
doesn't work; but tbird is suppoed to be posting in flowed which
includes how it is supposed to handle previous trailing spaces.
This is explained and illustrated in a number of the links I provided
earlier, here are just two snipped from earlier in this thread.
<my cite>
> A more recent faq is here http://joeclark.org/ffaq.html The format=flowed FAQ
>
> RFC 3676 is here http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3676.txt The Text/Plain Format and DelSp Parameters
--
Mike Easter
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Quotes here are the width of the compose window. Your post is full
window width but when it's quoted as it is in this reply it is compose
windows width. How do YOU explain it??
Bob Jamieson
Right now I'm just asking for a simple yes or no . . . in your opinion,
is it cosmetic and inconsequential, or is it not?
If your opinion is that this thing is MORE than that, IOW it will have a
negative impact on the AVERAGE use of TB3, then I will read up on this
f=f thing and then be better able to understand your reply here.
Don't misunderstand . . . I'm not trivializing your response here (and I
do appreciate your patience), but I need to learn how to walk and then
run with regard to your answers if this is necessary to my use of TB3
(when that time comes). If I don't first get a yes or no answer from
you, then your patience with me is going to wear thin because I'll be
asking ignorant questions about your replies.
If your answer is YES, meaning you think this is MORE than just cosmetic
and inconsequential for the average user, then before I ask more
questions about it, I will read up on it . . . so I can ask questions
that make sense.
Roy Smith
What Mike's whole complaint is about in this thread is the way quoted
text is put into the compose pane, and how it appears in the send
message. Instead of having a space and soft return at the end of each
line, the space has been stripped and is replaced with a hard return.
What this does is when you quote previously posted text in a message, it
loses it's ability to be rewrapped properly each time it's quoted again
after the first time.\
To give an example. Let's say the following line was quoted in a message:
This is quoted text.
Naturally real quoted text would have indicators in front of it to show
that it has been quoted from a previous message. From that point on,
each time that text is quoted in another message, another quote
indicator is added for each nested level. Eventually that line of text
is going to reach the 72 character (or whatever value one may use) line
length setting, so it gets quoted like so:
This is quoted
text.
If it keeps getting quoted, eventually it happens again and it should
look like this if there is enough room before the user defined line length:
This is
quoted text.
but this is not the case and it would look like this instead:
This is
quoted
text.
This is what he's complaining about, something that doesn't happen that
often so as a result isn't noticed by most people.
--
Roy Smith
Windows 7 Home Premium
Timestamp: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:50:22 AM
Ron Hunter
way across. If I reduce the window width the quotes don't reflow (never
have as far as I can recall). In the message window, they DO reflow,
and properly, as far as I can tell.
Looks like Mike is making a mountain out of a mole hill everyone else
just steps over, and goes about their way.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
It appears to only be cosmetic on this end, no effect on basic
communications of posts/replies, etc. However, one bug leads to another.
So with that in mind there is no telling exactly what this "cosmetic
appearance" bug's impact actually is. IOW, it needs to be fixed.
Roy Smith
It's just a cosmetic issue that affects how multiple layers of quoted
text appears. This is also a problem that is not unique to Thunderbird,
so I wouldn't worry about it.
--
Roy Smith
Windows 7 Home Premium
Timestamp: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:07:42 AM
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
What are your config editor settings for the two "flowed" entries? It
makes no difference here what they are set to, the quotes are the same
size/width as the default compose window size. f=f is broken, plain and
simple.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Both of my "flowed" settings are "false".
Bob Jamieson
OK . . . ME . . . let me save you some time and typing.
In the f=f FAQ link you provided, I see the author said "Yes, f=f text
usually looks better.".
Plus, Roy Smith in a post in this thread said, "something that doesn't
happen that often so as a result isn't noticed by most people."
So my conclusion is that this is NOT an overwhelming or pressing issue
that I should bump up in my priorities . . . IMO, it IS cosmetic.
As Gilda Radner used to say on Saturday Night Live, "Nevermiiiiind".
But you did help me to put this to bed, so your efforts were not wasted.
Mike Easter
> So my conclusion is that this is NOT an overwhelming or pressing issue
> that I should bump up in my priorities . . . IMO, it IS cosmetic.
Your tbird is 2.0.0.23 which is not regressive like the tbirds 3; ie it
handles flowed pretty well.
Tbird 2.0.0.23 only has a few little f=f glitches which I would like to
see remedied in some future tbird. I'll bring up some of that in the
developer group.
--
Mike Easter
Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter
hundreds of thousands? dead in Haiti! Gimme a break! I have a MUCH
worse problem here, I should be battering your eyes with. When I select
a 'From;" entry in order to add to my address book, or to make a filter,
it STAYS selected, and when I hit 'next' to go the next message, THAT
one is selected, as long as my message window is open.
I'm sure that violates some king of standard. Horrible. Maybe I should
sue?
I have seen no case, yet, in which multiple levels of quotes have been
made difficult to read by flowing to my window width, and I have even
tried to force this, without success.
So, if the devs. want to work on something, they should work on my
problem FIRST. At least I can show how that one happens, every time.
goodwin
Curious, Mike.
Some time ago, you were a proponent of Quote Fix for OE. I've never
used OE. Would Quote Fix and this f=f problem be related?
Ray Hughes
Well that's cleared it up for me. Thanks for transparent explanation.
--
Ray
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter scribbled:
>>> A more recent faq is here http://joeclark.org/ffaq.html The format=flowed FAQ
>>>
>>> RFC 3676 is here http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3676.txt The Text/Plain Format and DelSp Parameters
>>
>>
> Curious, Mike.
> Some time ago, you were a proponent of Quote Fix for OE. I've never
> used OE. Would Quote Fix and this f=f problem be related?
OE's editor has always been terrible. The OE I used for so long came
with IE Internet Explorer 6 SP1. I could never graduate to IE6sp2 OE
because that required XP and I was (still) driving W98se.
That old OE had a number of bug/features which made it a target of
derision in newsgroups. The shortlines problem was particularly glaring
and problematic, along with the inability to trim sigs and numerous
other handicaps.
OEQuoteFix came along and fixed those ugly characteristics and QF was
quite useful and I felt essential to my usage of OE (of sp1) at that
time. The shortlines business was especially aggravating to me.
However, OEQF has a number of its own flaws, and it also hasn't kept up
with the times. Its development and maintenance ceased some years ago.
Since then, OE and subsequently WM & WLM windows(live)mail have adopted
format=flowed, a concept which hadn't even been born when OEQF was
developed.
f=f is a good idea and I'm an advocate for its proper implementation by
as many newsreaders as possible.
--
Mike Easter
goodwin
>
> f=f is a good idea and I'm an advocate for its proper implementation by
> as many newsreaders as possible.
>
>
Funny, several years ago the word around these support groups was to
disable format flow. I entirely forget the reason (over 3 years, I
believe) but since that time I have had that feature turned off - you
may have seen in my headers for TB 2.0.0.21 there is no f=f mention, if
you looked - and I guess that has carried over many upgrades since I've
not even thought about it until you started pounding the table.
re: QuoteFix
Didn't realize that was /that/ long ago...
Gord McFee
I have always had it turned off too because I don't want the entire
screen filled with text. I remember the reason advanced at the time
was that FF was fine on small screens, but could be difficult on the eyes
on big screens. And that was my experience, so I turned it off.
Thunderbird does have some editor-caused and annoying quoting and
formatting issues that have never been fixed, so I doubt they ever will
be. One is the wrapping mistake where it wraps random lines a space or
two from the left of the screen instead of flush. You get this:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
ssssssssssssssss
instead of
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
ssssssssssssssssssss
Another is how wrapping is borked if you edit in the middle of a line.
That is why Edit -> Rewrap had to be invented.
I don't expect to live long enough to see either of these fixed.
--
Best regards
Gord McFee
Mike Easter
> goodwin wrote:
>> Mike Easter
>>> f=f is a good idea and I'm an advocate for its proper
>>> implementation by as many newsreaders as possible.
>> Funny, several years ago the word around these support groups was to
>> disable format flow.
> I have always had it turned off too because I don't want the entire
> screen filled with text.
There are a number of - two basic - optional configurations for f=f such
as how the display works. The configurations are different for Tbird2
vs Tbird3.
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Plain_text_e-mail_(Thunderbird)#Flowed_format
or http://snipr.com/u65vv Plain text e-mail - Thunderbird -- There are
separate preferences to disable flowed message display and sending
flowed e-mails. -
To disable flowed paragraphs, enforcing line breaks as formatted in the
message, set the preference:
mailnews.display.disable_format_flowed_support true
To disable paragraph flow when you send plain text messages, and in the
plain text part of multipart messages, set the preference:
mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed false
--
Mike Easter
Phillip Jones
Supposedly, using the "|" characters saved space on the screen. The
Format Flowed character resembled the thin blue threading line in HTML
Mail (one reason *I* like HTML Mail). For a long time I had Format
flowed turned off. Until I started using QuoteColors. QuoteColors uses
the Format Flowed Character to come up with a Character similar to the
Thread line in in HTML, only they are colored according the thread, the
text related related to the thread and the thread line is also colored
the same.
--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com
Ron Hunter
lines for each quot level on both sides of the screen in the message.
And I don't have Quotecolors installed, just TB3....
G. R. Woodring
The colored quote bars are available natively in TB2.0 and can be modified in
userContent.css. Should also be possible in 3.0. I have eliminated the ones on
the right, made the first bar for the most recent poster black and alternated
the remaining in blue and gray. I've also moved them closer together. All
quoted text is blue. It looks very natural with the SkyPilot theme (another
reason to stay with 2.0 till the very end :-) )
--
G. R. Woodring
WL
Bob Jamieson <nospamrbj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In the f=f FAQ link you provided, I see the author said "Yes, f=f text
>usually looks better.".
>
>Plus, Roy Smith in a post in this thread said, "something that doesn't
>happen that often so as a result isn't noticed by most people."
>
>So my conclusion is that this is NOT an overwhelming or pressing issue
>that I should bump up in my priorities . . . IMO, it IS cosmetic.
>
>As Gilda Radner used to say on Saturday Night Live, "Nevermiiiiind".
I used to rail against Outlook users because they blithely did
things like top-post, ignore content-type declarations, not use
content-type at all, etc. Outlook users did not care because it
was something they would never see. "Silly WL," they would say,
"that's what you get for using some random email client with a
funny bird name."
That's the funny thing about breaking RFCs: it is usually
inconsequential for the party that is doing the breaking.
--
WL
real mail: wliao at sdf loSnPesAtarM org
(remove the uppercase letters...)
goodwin
>>
> Strange. I am looking at your message, and guess what.. I see colored
> lines for each quot level on both sides of the screen in the message.
> And I don't have Quotecolors installed, just TB3....
>
>
can I bogart some of what you're smoking? :)
LuKreme
> That's the funny thing about breaking RFCs: it is usually
> inconsequential for the party that is doing the breaking.
This is why Mike was posting, and this is why I agree with him.
Breaking f=f is a bug, and it's a mistake, and it's a step backwards
from 2.x
How is this a good thing?
Bob Jamieson
virtues of this defect. It was just whether or not it was a big deal.
Would be interesting to see how many people on the receiving end of this
"broken RFC" complain to the senders. Since I don't use TB3, I wouldn't
get any complaints on this.
However, here's a question for those that use TB3. Assuming you send in
plain text, do your correspondents complain about word wrapping in your
emails? If a lot of correspondents complain about that, then it would
indeed be consequential. OTOH, if it's just in the realm of the purist,
then maybe not.
I do however agree that it should be fixed. My question just relates to
where on the ladder of priorities it should be.
Ron Hunter
whatever flaws there are in the received data. Having coded word-wrap
to do just that, I know it isn't all that difficult.
Still, it would be nice if TB3 followed the protocol, but there are
dozens of more significant flaws that need to be fixed that really annoy
most people. One I really hate is the bad habit of TB3 sending
newsgroup replies via email, now and then, even though I don't even have
'reply all' in my toolbar. Or the problem where after I reply to a
message, it sometimes won't go to the next message, with 'n', or 'Next',
or any other way but to close my message window, and double-click on the
next unread message. I am sure there are other bad bugs, like the
almost completely unusable 'auto configure' routine.
Compared with those, and purely cosmetic problem doesn't seem that
important, but to Mike, it seems to be at least as significant as the
Earthquake relief in Haiti.