Extra spaces in Thunderbird messages I write lead to ?? inserted when others receive them

[hm...@compuserve.com]

I use Thunderbird 60.0 (32 bit) as my Email program. I run this on a Windows 7 Pro (64 bit) computer). I use IMAP Mail servers, and SMTP Outgoing Servers.

I have a problem with the space key on my keyboard. When writing an Email, it sometimes gives me two spaces when I click it, rather than one. The recipient gets one or two ? characters printed for each extra space. Go here [ https://imgur.com/qUkuAq6 ] to see the attachment for an example. I first noticed this problem when someone would answer one of my Emails, and my original was included.

I searched this forum and found a thread titled: 'gibberish in some emails'. In that case, the information was copied and pasted into Thunderbird from an Amazon website, and the gibberish was different characters than ??.

I normally use 'Body Text' and 'Variable Width' when I Write an Email. Based on what was suggested in that forum, I went to Options->Display->Formatting->Advanced, and set the Text Encoding for both Outgoing and Incoming to Unicode (UTF-8). No change. Then I tried changing both (together and one at a time) to Western (Windows-1252). No change. I also tried changing, in Write. 'Variable Width' to 'Fixed Width' and also to 'Arial'. Again, no improvement. Because I have several add-ons, I also tried 'Safe Mode'. Same problem. I tested most of these by sending an Email with varying spaces from one of my Email accounts to another.

If I open what I sent in Thunderbird, and go to View->Message Source, everything looks fine. But if I check my Inbox after the message is received, both the message and View->Message Source display the ? symbols. I am not a programmer, so have no idea what, if anything, I should be looking for in the Message Source. Because of another Thunderbird issue I have, I don't open Thunderbird directly. I use a batch file instead, so I create an imap log file each time Thunderbird is opened. But again, I don't know what I am looking for here.

I noticed several responses to the 'gibberish..' thread which mentioned Yahoo mail. My primary Email account is Compuserve (AOL). Compuserve/AOL uses a rebranded Yahoo mail account. MY ISP is AT&T. It is my secondary Email account. AT&T also uses a rebranded Yahoo mail account. So everything I either send or receive goes through Yahoo mail.

Does anyone have any ideas what the problem might be, and/or how I might trace the problem?

One caveat: I am NOT getting rid of my special KeyPro FK-9000 (20 year old) keyboard. So far, my cleaning it has not helped.


Harry

[Wolf K]

On 2019-05-03 01:05, hm...@compuserve.com wrote:
> I use Thunderbird 60.0 (32 bit) as my Email program. I run this on a Windows 7 Pro (64 bit) computer). I use IMAP Mail servers, and SMTP Outgoing Servers.
>
> I have a problem with the space key on my keyboard. When writing an Email, it sometimes gives me two spaces when I click it, rather than one. The recipient gets one or two ? characters printed for each extra space. Go here [https://imgur.com/qUkuAq6 ] to see the attachment for an example. I first noticed this problem when someone would answer one of my Emails, and my original was included.

[etc][

It sounds like the keyboard is sending some code other "space". Since
the code it's sending isn't part of the character description, the
character decoder find it in its character list, so by default it
inserts the ?

IOW, the keyboard is defective. I would get a new(er) one.

Good luck,

--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
You are who you intend to be. (Kurt Vonnegut)

[Andy Burns]

hm...@compuserve.com wrote:

> I am NOT getting rid of my special KeyPro FK-9000

does your special keyboard use a special drive or keymap?
maybe <space><space> is entering a hard space?

could you send a reply to this thread with the mystery space or question
marks in it?

[Wolf K]

On 2019-05-03 01:05, hm...@compuserve.com wrote:

[...]

> One caveat: I am NOT getting rid of my special KeyPro FK-9000 (20 year old) keyboard. So far, my cleaning it has not helped.

Well, I can understand your attachment to the keyboard. I have an at
least 10 year-old Logitech (inherited), the A , N, H and I keys no
longer have letters on them, and several others are wearing away. But
I'll not get another keyboard just yet. This one just feel right. :-)

But 20-years old means that the keyboard that contacts have worn. It
could be that when you hit 'space' the keyboard sends a double code
because of worn contacts. Cleaning won't change worn contacts, you just
get nice clean worn contacts. :-(

I hope you are able to find another Keypro FK-9000. But the newest info
on used Keypro FK-9000s that I found was dated 2017. :-(

OTOH, as Andy suggests, there may be a scancode variation. Here's a site
that may help understand that possibility:
https://oelzant.priv.at/~aoe/mystuff/agenda/kbd-1.05/doc/scancodes/scancodes-2.html

Good luck and best wishes,


It's sad but true that everything human make eventually fails. Even vast
statues made of stone.:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46565/ozymandias

[Steve]

On 2019-05-03 12:05 a.m., hm...@compuserve.com wrote:
> I use Thunderbird 60.0 (32 bit) as my Email program. I run this on a Windows 7 Pro (64 bit) computer). I use IMAP Mail servers, and SMTP Outgoing Servers.
>
> I have a problem with the space key on my keyboard. When writing an Email, it sometimes gives me two spaces when I click it, rather than one. The recipient gets one or two ? characters printed for each extra space. Go here [ https://imgur.com/qUkuAq6 ] to see the attachment for an example. I first noticed this problem when someone would answer one of my Emails, and my original was included.
>

> I searched this forum and found a thread titled: 'gibberish in some emails'.. In that case, the information was copied and pasted into Thunderbird from an Amazon website, and the gibberish was different characters than ??.

>
> I normally use 'Body Text' and 'Variable Width' when I Write an Email. Based on what was suggested in that forum, I went to Options->Display->Formatting->Advanced, and set the Text Encoding for both Outgoing and Incoming to Unicode (UTF-8). No change. Then I tried changing both (together and one at a time) to Western (Windows-1252). No change. I also tried changing, in Write. 'Variable Width' to 'Fixed Width' and also to 'Arial'. Again, no improvement. Because I have several add-ons, I also tried 'Safe Mode'. Same problem. I tested most of these by sending an Email with varying spaces from one of my Email accounts to another.
>
> If I open what I sent in Thunderbird, and go to View->Message Source, everything looks fine. But if I check my Inbox after the message is received, both the message and View->Message Source display the ? symbols. I am not a programmer, so have no idea what, if anything, I should be looking for in the Message Source. Because of another Thunderbird issue I have, I don't open Thunderbird directly. I use a batch file instead, so I create an imap log file each time Thunderbird is opened. But again, I don't know what I am looking for here.
>
> I noticed several responses to the 'gibberish..' thread which mentioned Yahoo mail. My primary Email account is Compuserve (AOL). Compuserve/AOL uses a rebranded Yahoo mail account. MY ISP is AT&T. It is my secondary Email account. AT&T also uses a rebranded Yahoo mail account. So everything I either send or receive goes through Yahoo mail.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas what the problem might be, and/or how I might trace the problem?
>
> One caveat: I am NOT getting rid of my special KeyPro FK-9000 (20 year old) keyboard. So far, my cleaning it has not helped.
>
>
> Harry
>

It's a well-known issue for those sending on ATT/Rogers/AOL/Verizon/Yahoo servers, all of which use Yahoo mail infrastructure. Open Tools/Options/Advanced/General/Config. editor and double-click the preference mail.strictly_mime to true, OK to close Options.

[😉 Good Guy 😉]

On 03/05/2019 06:05, hm...@compuserve.com wrote:

 

One caveat: I am NOT getting rid of my special KeyPro FK-9000 (20 year old) keyboard. So far, my cleaning it has not helped.

At least try a different keyboard to see if this is an issue with the keyboard or a software.  You need to trouble-shoot the problem before a solution can be found.  Trying a different keyboard is a start.

--

With over 950 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

[Grant Taylor]

On 5/2/19 11:05 PM, hm...@compuserve.com wrote:
> Does anyone have any ideas what the problem might be, and/or how I
> might trace the problem?

This really sounds like something is interpreting the two spaces and
actually entering another character. It's this different character
that's being sent that receiving email systems don't know how to
properly display. Hence why they are displaying it as (likely pairs of)
question mark(s).

Their reply will have what they see, question mark(s), hence why you see
it then.

I usually hear about this with some form of fancy editor ~cough~MS
Word~cough~.

> One caveat: I am NOT getting rid of my special KeyPro FK-9000 (20
> year old) keyboard. So far, my cleaning it has not helped.

Other than the keyboard sometimes double typing, I see no reason to
replace it. If you like it, see if you can repair it.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

[Wolf K]

Now that's interesting. Filed for future reference. Thanks.

[hm...@compuserve.com]

Steve said:
> It's a well-known issue for those sending on ATT/Rogers/AOL/Verizon/Yahoo servers, all of which use Yahoo mail infrastructure. Open Tools/Options/Advanced/General/Config. editor and double-click the preference mail.strictly_mime to true, OK to close Options.

Works perfectly! I tried creating the first message entirely in T'bird, and then again in MS Word, and doing a copy paste. Both worked fine.

I did notice that when I did a View>Message Source of either what I sent, or what my other Email address received, several characters had been added.

On one test, here are the words I sent:
"This is a third test to see what happens when I have 2 spaces between words. Again 2 spaces between words.

Now 3 spaces between words. Again 3 spaces between words."

Here is what the Message Source indicates:
"This is a third test to see what happens when I have=A0 2 spaces between words. Again=A0 2 spaces between words.

Now=A0=A0 3 spaces between words. Again=A0=A0 3 spaces between words."

Perhaps you can explain to me what changing mail.strictly_mime to true actually does, and how that change relates to the =A0 that was added?

But in any case, this is a simple fix, and I really appreciate it.


Harry

[hm...@compuserve.com]

Andy:

> could you send a reply to this thread with the mystery space or question
marks in it?

Here is what a received Email looks like (same as in the link I included in my original post):

"This is a seventh test to see what happens when I have? 2 spaces between words. Again? 2 spaces between words. This time I am sending FROM XXX@YYY, to ZZZ@YYY.
Now?? 3 spaces between words. Again?? 3 spaces between words."

Note that with two leading spaces there is one ? inserted, and with three leading spaces there are two (i.e. ??) inserted.

Harry

[PietB]

Wolf K wrote:
> Well, I can understand your attachment to the keyboard. I have an at
> least 10 year-old Logitech (inherited), the A , N, H and I keys no
> longer have letters on them, and several others are wearing away. But
> I'll not get another keyboard just yet. This one just feel right. :-)
>
> But 20-years old means that the keyboard that contacts have worn. It
> could be that when you hit 'space' the keyboard sends a double code
> because of worn contacts. Cleaning won't change worn contacts, you
> just get nice clean worn contacts. :-(

Get yourself a Hall sensors keyboard. No wearing contacts. Eventually
all keys will be blank though, turning typing into playing dice. :-)

-p

[Steve]

I don't know much about this issue, but changing the pref. apparently enforces 'quoted printable' format.

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Emulate_Microsoft_email_clients#Attachments

To read about the Yahoo encoding: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1435903

As a separate issue, to avoid introducing unwanted MS formatting characters, always paste without formatting (Ctrl+Shift+V) when copying from Word to TB.

[Harry Ward]

On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 1:48:31 PM UTC-4, Steve wrote:

> >
> I don't know much about this issue, but changing the pref. apparently enforces 'quoted printable' format.
>
> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Emulate_Microsoft_email_clients#Attachments
>
> To read about the Yahoo encoding: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1435903
>
> As a separate issue, to avoid introducing unwanted MS formatting characters, always paste without formatting (Ctrl+Shift+V) when copying from Word to TB.

Thanks for the links. I don't understand all the details, other than the Yahoo folks and the Thunderbird folks want to blame each other for the problem.

When I draft in Word, I always copy to a clipboard utility I have (ClipCache). It saves html files also as text files. So I usually pick the text file to copy into Thunderbird.

Harry

[Andy Burns]

Harry Ward wrote:

> When I draft in Word, I always copy to a clipboard utility I have
> (ClipCache). It saves html files also as text files. So I usually pick
> the text file to copy into Thunderbird.

Did you mention before that you were composing in word, then pasting to
thunderbird? If you did then I missed that, I'd say you're much more
likely to get the "hard spaces" =A0 that you were seeing by doing it
that way ...

[Harry Ward]

First, I got the =A0 no matter whether I composed the message in Tbird or in Word. I tested it both ways. Likewise, the config setting of mail.strictly_mime true fixed it no matter whether I composed in Tbird or Word.

Where I compose depends of the length of the message. If it is short and fairly simple, I use the Write command in Tbird. If it is many paragraphs, and/or contains technical information that I have to go look up, I have found it is easier using Word, and then doing a Copy->Paste. I use the same technique for forum posting. For example, my initial post in this thread was done in Word. I think all the subsequent posts were done by typing directly on this page. Then for backup in case something goes wrong, I copy my entries to ClipCache before I click on Post.


Harry

[Witziges Rätsel]

On 5/3/2019 1:05 AM, hm...@compuserve.com wrote:
>
> I use Thunderbird 60.0 (32 bit) as my Email program. I run this on a Windows 7 Pro >(64 bit) computer). I use IMAP Mail servers, and SMTP Outgoing Servers.
>
> I have a problem with the space key on my keyboard. When writing an Email, it >sometimes gives me two spaces when I click it, rather than one. The recipient gets one >or two ? characters printed for each extra space. Go here [https://imgur.com/qUkuAq6 >] to see the attachment for an example. I first noticed this problem when someone >would answer one of my Emails, and my original was included.
>

> [snipped]
>
> Harry
>
Try this:
1. Open Thunderbird.
2. Go to Tools>Options>Advanced>General.
3. Press Config Editor.
4. Accept the Risk.
5. Search for or scroll down to mail.strictly_mime (If it is False,
change it to True.)
6. Close Tools.

[Harry Ward]

Thanks for the tip.
Steve previously suggested that. I did it, and it works great!


Harry

[ishikawa]

On 2019年05月03日 14:05, hm...@compuserve.com wrote:
> One caveat: I am NOT getting rid of my special KeyPro FK-9000 (20 year old) keyboard. So far, my cleaning it has not helped.

I am glad to see that your problem was solved by TB's option setting and
that the keyboard seems to be doing fine (except for some extra spaces here
and there).

Today, I use a Japanese keyboard called Happy Hacking Keyboard and its
variation mostly at home.
(https://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/en/products/hhkb.html)

The cheapy keyboards these days suck. So I share your sentiment about the
keyboard.

I miss my old keyboard on the first home PC I had (I had used workstations
at work and was familiar with IBM-PC, Sun, HP, DEC keyboards.).
The first home PC had a nice mechanical keyboard made in U.S.A., but when I
moved, the space bar got mungled somehow during transport, and eventually I
had to part with it.
Mechanical keyboard space bar is very wide and is amenable to external rough
handling :-(

Today, I can no longer find a keyboard that reminds me of the nice click of
old IBM-selectric typewriter keyboard at a reasonable price range. When I
visit a computer shop and find myself near the rack of keyboards, I often
try the sample models.
[I am a bit surprised today that if my old favorite keyboard had been still
with me, it would have been 26+ years(!). ]

I am glad to see that the TB's option setting has a feature to work with
the strange behavior yahoo e-mail service so that you can continue using the
friendly old keyboard.
Please take good care of your KeyPro FK-2000 (!)

Chiaki Ishikawa

[Harry Ward]

Ishikawa-san:

Thanks for the kind words. You can still find some of the original IBM keyboards for sale on the internet. I have one a friend gave me. Most everything works, but a few key repeat when struck (sound familiar). I was able to get some very thin mylar sheet, and when I have time, plan to create a new separation layer between the contacts and the keys. But it is not as versatile as my FK-9000.


Harry

[Mr Smith]

You should do what I did. Turn the keyboard upside down and tap it
vigorously so that all the rubbish like paperclips falls out. You'd be
surprised what gets in between the cracks !

[bg.12...@gmail.com]

I get this when typing with three separate 17" Macbook Pros (late 2011). It probably started in early 2019. The keyboards are "defective" only in Thunderbird. Any thoughts on a correction?
-Bruce

[bg.12...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 10:20:39 AM UTC-4, Witziges Rätsel wrote:

Thank you. This solves the immediate problem I have with my Macbook Pro.
Will mail.strictly_mime=True affect non-text email attachments or emails (rarely) received French or German?

[Wolf K]

Sorry, no. It's an intriguing puzzle, though. Hope someone has a solution.

Best wishes,

[Nobody]

Isn't this really better handled by changing your 'text encoding'?

Go Tools > Options > Display > Advanced (to the right of Fonts &
Colours).

Mine is Unicode (UTF-8) for both incoming and outgoing.

My <mail.strictly_mime> is false/default.

Win 10 64bit T'bird 60.9.0

[Dave Royal]

Nobody <jo...@soccer.com> wrote:
>
> Isn't this really better handled by changing your 'text encoding'?
>

I agree. From this bug:
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1379096>
(which proposes changing this setting for an entirely different reason)
it would seem that the effect is to change the content encoding to
quoted-printable. If the problem in this thread is an unusual space
character then then will perhaps encode it properly. But encoding it as
UTF-8 is more standard.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

[Chris Ramsden]

On 2019-09-09 14:59, Wolf K wrote:
> On 2019-09-08 16:58, bg.12...@gmail.com wrote:
>>

>> I get this when typing with three separate 17" Macbook Pros (late
>> 2011). It probably started in early 2019.  The keyboards are
>> "defective" only in Thunderbird.  Any thoughts on a correction?
>> -Bruce
>>
>

> Sorry, no. It's an intriguing puzzle, though. Hope someone has a
> solution.
>
> Best wishes,
>

Is anyone here using Yahoo for email? They have been known to do some
odd substitutions, specifically involving a double space.

--
Chris

[responder]

I use bellsouth.net....which is owned by AT&T and they farm it out to Yahoo.
AT&T was going to take it back last year but nothing yet.

Is it any wonder things get screwed up?