Thread lines in messages

[Ken Springer]

After reading some web posts, I gather it's no longer possible to have
thread lines for messages?


--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Firefox 83.0
Thunderbird 60.9.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

[WaltS48]

On 12/14/20 5:03 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
> After reading some web posts, I gather it's no longer possible to have
> thread lines for messages?
>
>

In the Thread pane or message body?

I have them in the Thread pane of 78.5.1 on Ubuntu Linux using the
Thunderbird Dark, Default or Light themes.

I'll have to check on Windows after the update to 78.6.0 tomorrow.

--
OS: Ubuntu Linux 18.04LTS - Gnome Desktop
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/get-involved/
https://give.thunderbird.net/en-US/

[Ron K.]

On 12/14/2020 5:03 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
> After reading some web posts, I gather it's no longer possible to have
> thread lines for messages?
>
>

I have tise in my CSS file to set a black solid line in place of the
default dotted line.

/* make lines for threaded msgs solid black */
tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,
tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,
treechildren::-moz-tree-line { border: 1px solid black !important;}

--
Ron K.

[WaltS48]

No CSS File here, and mine are a solid white on a dark background using
the Thunderbird Dark theme in Thunderbird 78.5.1 on Windows 10.

Ken is using version 60.9.1, so there may be a difference.

[Big Al]

On 12/14/20 5:03 PM, this is what Ken Springer wrote:
> After reading some web posts, I gather it's no longer possible to have thread lines for messages?
>
>

This is a bit long, But you can drop all this into one tree.css and just import it into your existing userchrome.css with the following on
the first line

@import "tree.css";

I wish I could take credit but I got this off the internet. No idea where though. Watch out for line wraps.
---------------------------------------

/* This Source Code Form is subject to the terms of the Mozilla Public
* License, v. 2.0. If a copy of the MPL was not distributed with this
* file, You can obtain one at http://mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/. */

/* ===== tree.css ===================================================
== Styles used by the XUL outline element.
======================================================================= */

/*** THE SHORT STORY: This is here to draw the lines connecting threaded messages and folders. */


/* ::::: tree ::::: */

tree {
margin: 0px 4px;
border: 1px solid rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
background-color: -moz-Field;
color: -moz-FieldText;
-moz-appearance: listbox;
}

/* ::::: tree rows ::::: */

treechildren::-moz-tree-row {
border: 1px solid transparent;
background-color: transparent;
min-height: 18px;
height: 1.3em;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-row(selected) {
background-color: -moz-Dialog;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-row(selected, focus) {
background-color: Highlight;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-row(current, focus) {
border: 1px dotted #000000;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-row(selected, current, focus) {
border: 1px dotted #C0C0C0;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-row,
tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-row {
border: none;
background-color: transparent;
}

/* ::::: tree cells ::::: */

treechildren::-moz-tree-cell {
padding: 0px 2px 0px 2px;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text,
tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text,
treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text {
color: inherit;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(selected) {
color: -moz-DialogText;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell {
border: 1px solid transparent;
padding: 0px 1px 0px 1px;
}

tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text {
border: 1px solid transparent;
padding: 0px 1px 1px 1px;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell(active, selected) {
background-color: -moz-Dialog;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(active, selected) {
color: -moz-DialogText;
}

tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(active, selected) {
background-color: -moz-Dialog;
color: -moz-DialogText;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(selected, focus) {
color: HighlightText;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell(active, selected, focus) {
background-color: Highlight;
}
tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(active, selected, focus) {
color: HighlightText;
}

tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(active, selected, focus) {
background-color: Highlight;
color: HighlightText;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell(active, current, focus) {
border: 1px dotted #000000;
}

tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(active, current, focus) {
border: 1px dotted #000000;
}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell(active, selected, current, focus) {
border: 1px dotted #C0C0C0;
}

tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(active, selected, current, focus) {
border: 1px dotted #C0C0C0;
}

/* ::::: lines connecting cells ::::: */

treechildren::-moz-tree-line {
visibility: visible;

}

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,
tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,
treechildren::-moz-tree-line {

border: 1px dotted rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
}

/* ::::: tree separator ::::: */

treechildren::-moz-tree-separator {
border-top: 1px solid rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
border-bottom: 1px solid ThreeDHighlight;
}

/* ::::: drop feedback ::::: */

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(primary, dropOn),
tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(primary, dropOn),
treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(primary, dropOn) {
background-color: Highlight;
color: HighlightText;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-drop-feedback {
background-color: Highlight;
width: 50px;
height: 2px;
margin-left: 5px;
}

/* ::::: tree progress meter ::::: */

treechildren::-moz-tree-progressmeter {
margin: 2px 4px;
border: 2px groove rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
background-color: -moz-Dialog;
color: rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-progressmeter(progressUndetermined) {
list-style-image: url("chrome://global/skin/progressmeter/progressmeter-busy.gif");
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-cell-text(progressmeter) {
margin: 2px 4px;
}

/* ::::: tree columns ::::: */

treecol,
treecolpicker {
border: 2px groove rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
background-color: -moz-Dialog;
color: -moz-DialogText;
-moz-box-align: center;
-moz-box-pack: start;
text-shadow: none;
padding: 1px 2px 2px;
-moz-context-properties: fill;
fill: currentcolor;
}

..treecol-image {
padding-top: 2px;
-moz-padding-start: 2px;
-moz-padding-end: 2px;
}

..treecol-text {
margin: -1px 2px -1px 0px !important;
}

..treecol-icon,
..tree-columnpicker-icon {
margin: -2px;
}

treecol[hideheader="true"] {
-moz-appearance: none;
border: none;
padding: 0;
}

/* ..... internal box ..... */

treecol:hover:active,
treecolpicker:hover:active {
border: 2px ridge rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
}

/* ::::: column drag and drop styles ::::: */

treecol[dragging="true"] {
border-color: ThreeDShadow !important;
background-color: rgba(24, 24, 24, .32) !important;
color: ThreeDHighlight !important;
}

treecol[insertafter="true"] {
border-right-color: ThreeDShadow;
}

treecol[insertbefore="true"] {
border-left-color: ThreeDShadow;
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-column(insertbefore) {
border-left: 1px solid rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-column(insertafter) {
border-right: 1px solid rgba(24, 24, 24, .32);
}

/* ::::: sort direction indicator ::::: */

..treecol-sortdirection {
list-style-image: none;
width: 7px; /* The image's width is 7 pixels */
height: 4px; /* Scale the image's height to 4 pixels */
}

..treecol-sortdirection[sortDirection="ascending"] {
list-style-image: url("chrome://messenger/skin/icons/arrow/arrow-up.svg");
}

..treecol-sortdirection[sortDirection="descending"] {
list-style-image: url("chrome://messenger/skin/icons/arrow/arrow-down.svg");
}

/* ::::: twisty ::::: */

treechildren::-moz-tree-twisty {
padding-right: 5px;
width: 10px; /* The image's width is 9 pixels */
list-style-image: url("chrome://global/skin/tree/twisty-clsd.png");
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-twisty(open) {
padding-right: 5px;
width: 10px; /* The image's width is 9 pixels */
list-style-image: url("chrome://global/skin/tree/twisty-open.png");
}

treechildren::-moz-tree-indentation {
width: 16px;
}

/* ::::: gridline style ::::: */

treechildren.gridlines::-moz-tree-cell {
border-right: 1px solid GrayText;
border-bottom: 1px solid GrayText;
}

treechildren.gridlines::-moz-tree-row {
border: none;
}

[Ken Springer]

Hi, Walt,

I trying to make the latest version palatable for my eyes. :-) But I
have little hope of doing it.

In the thread pane, so you can immediately see which message is being
answered by the subject. Originally, someone posted a mod to the css
file, which turned the lines on, but I think this version has the lines
as an option. ATM I can't find that, so I could be dreaming. LOL

I've also added Account Colors and Theme and Font Size Changer also to
make things easier and more efficient for me.

The default of the current version, on Macs, looks so much like Apple
Mail I want to "expel recently eaten food". LOL Wen I bought my first
Mac in 2009, I tried Apple Mail... For about 2 hours, and pitched it
out the window, and never looked back. That's when I started using TB,
Since then, TPTB have slowly gotten rid of the features that originally
attracted me to TB, but haven't bothered to fix little bugs.

When they made the "big change" after version 60.x, and I found out what
had happened to my addons when I upgraded to 68, I went back to 60, and
have no plans to ever upgrade from here. Unless the Thunderbird group
returns to easy addon customization so I can easily use and enjoy TB, I
won't be upgrading.

I used to heartily recommend both TB and Firefox, but I stopped doing
that years ago.

[Ken Springer]

Hi, Ron,

Sorry for the late reply, other things got in the way of pursuing this.

Installed TB 78.5.1 in Mac High Sierra 10.13.6, no thread lines of any
kind as a default. Could this be something that's in the Windows
version but not part of the Mac version?

I looked at my user.chrome file here in 60.9.1. and it's a complication
of your file and instructions from Chris Ilias back in 2011. I copied
my file to vers. 78.x.x, nothing.

Installed TB in W10 20H2. No thread lines with or without a userChrome.css.

I bet I worked 15 minutes or more, never could bet TB to do a POP3
account. @$%&@^&@

Looked in config editor for something that looked like it might indicate
thread lines, but nothing,

Where did your thread lines come from?

[Ken Springer]

On 12/14/20 4:52 PM, Big Al wrote:
> On 12/14/20 5:03 PM, this is what Ken Springer wrote:
>> After reading some web posts, I gather it's no longer possible to have thread lines for messages?
>>
>>
> This is a bit long, But you can drop all this into one tree.css and just import it into your existing userchrome.css with the following on
> the first line
>
> @import "tree.css";

<snip>

Hi,, Big Al,

Sorry for the late reply, other things got in the way.

Just finished writing a reply to Ron K., and will wait for a reply there
before trying you code.

One thing I forgot to mention to Ron, with a fresh install, there is no
Chrome folder or existing userchrome.css. Both Windows and Mac.

[WaltS48]

On 12/19/20 4:45 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
> On 12/14/20 4:52 PM, Big Al wrote:
>> On 12/14/20 5:03 PM, this is what Ken Springer wrote:
>>> After reading some web posts, I gather it's no longer possible to
>>> have thread lines for messages?
>>>
>>>
>> This is a bit long, But you can drop all this into one tree.css and
>> just import it into your existing userchrome.css with the following on
>> the first line
>>
>> @import "tree.css";
>
> <snip>
>
> Hi,, Big Al,
>
> Sorry for the late reply, other things got in the way.
>
> Just finished writing a reply to Ron K., and will wait for a reply there
> before trying you code.
>
> One thing I forgot to mention to Ron, with a fresh install, there is no
> Chrome folder or existing userchrome.css.  Both Windows and Mac.
>
>

Users have to create the chrome folder in the profile folder and enable
an preference in the Config Editor so userChrome.css files work.

<https://www.ghacks.net/2019/05/24/firefox-69-userchrome-css-and-usercontent-css-disabled-by-default/>

For Firefox, but also applies to Thunderbird.

[Big Al]

On 12/19/20 4:45 PM, this is what Ken Springer wrote:
> On 12/14/20 4:52 PM, Big Al wrote:
>> On 12/14/20 5:03 PM, this is what Ken Springer wrote:
>>> After reading some web posts, I gather it's no longer possible to have thread lines for messages?
>>>
>>>
>> This is a bit long, But you can drop all this into one tree.css and just import it into your existing userchrome.css with the following on
>> the first line
>>
>> @import "tree.css";
>
> <snip>
>
> Hi,, Big Al,
>
> Sorry for the late reply, other things got in the way.
>
> Just finished writing a reply to Ron K., and will wait for a reply there before trying you code.
>
> One thing I forgot to mention to Ron, with a fresh install, there is no Chrome folder or existing userchrome.css.  Both Windows and Mac.
>
>

Yes, you have to create both. It's not default.
And you need to go into about:config and find this setting and set it true.
toolkit.legacyUserProfileCustomizations.stylesheets

Al

--
Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.0 64bit, Dell Inspiron 5570, Quad Core i7-8550U, 16G Memory

[Ron K.]

See the response below because the default is NO userChrome folder or
file. The code I provided I got from another User of TB a few months
ago. It worked for Me with Win10 and the userChrome fix.

--
Ron K.

[Ken Springer]

Ah, the secret to the problem. I don't remember doing this long, long
ago when I did the userChorme.css in the TB of the day.

[Nobody]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 18:22:24 -0700, Ken Springer <snow...@q.com>
wrote:

I run Win 10 TB 78.6.0.. and I see thread lines with a sort-of stock
install.

But they're really faint... just a series of small dots to delineate
the route.

[Ron K.]

The code I provided changed the dotted line into solid black lines that
are easier to see.

--
Ron K.

[WaltS48]

Why do I have solid lines without any file in Thunderbird on Windows 10
and Linux?

[Big Al]

Do you use some theme? I've had many themes over the years and some have the lines, some have only the lines and not the icons at the
junction of the lines and some only the icons. A complete mixture.
I've always had those lines of code in my userchrome.css that force the decoration so I'm not sure if my current setup has lines or not.

[WaltS48]

No I use the default OS themes and Thunderbird Dark theme.

This is TB 78.6.0 on Windows 10.

<https://imgur.com/VKg2ckL>

[Ken Springer]

One possibility with the dotted lines may be the monitor itself.

I can guarantee you all screens are not created equal. As I've posted
before, with my eyes, I won't be updateing from TB 60 until TB gives me
back *all* the customization I've done to make the program easy for me
to use.

One "customization", if you will, that is outside of TB's control is
your monitor/screen. When I talk to people about solving a visual
issue, I always tell them the best first place to start is to get a
monitor/screen that uses an IPS panel.

It won't solve cataract issues, I've had that, and it won't help macular
degeneration, I've got that, but it sure helps.

[Nobody]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 12:02:11 -0500, WaltS48 <sch...@invalid.net>
wrote:

'Lines' in that screenshot display as dots with my monitor. They're
certainly more visible in the Dark Theme when I switch as well in
78.6.0 on Win 10, though they're less obvious in light and default, as
well as my 'Dream of Waves'.

Thread lines within individual postings are definite solid verticals.

[WaltS48]

On 12/20/2020 8:57 AM, Big Al wrote:

Apologies again.

When I look at my monitors the lines look solid to me, but after finding
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1682971> I had to take a
closer look. Like with my face 2 inches away from the screen.

They are dotted lines. 🤬🤐

[Big Al]

I added this to make the lines solid. userChrome.css

/* make lines for threaded msgs solid black */
tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,
tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,
treechildren::-moz-tree-line { border: 1px solid black !important; }

[WaltS48]

We are happy for all users that have done that.

It's not needed here.

I've also noticed the new borders around selected folders in the Folder
pane and messages in the Thread pane are also dots.

Must be hell on a hi res monitor.

[WaltS48]

Taking an even closer look, it appears everything is dotted.

I think they are called pixels.

YMMV

[Big Al]

Even more simple, I'm sure some of that code is needed for something, but it's way over my head. I did delete a few lines and kept going
and found all I needed was the visibility and a solid entry. So I simplified the logic in my css to just these lines.

/* make lines for threaded msgs solid black more extensive work done in tree.css*/

tree[seltype="cell"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,
tree[seltype="text"] > treechildren::-moz-tree-line,

treechildren::-moz-tree-line { border: 1px solid black !important; }

/* ::::: lines connecting cells ::::: */

#folderTree treechildren::-moz-tree-line { visibility: visible; }

I'm using the light theme built into TB 68 on Linux and a soft drawing paper theme in Windows to make the lines and joining icons appear.
https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/addon/soft-drawing-paper/

[Big Al]

Yes, that's what the code I posted is supposed to change.
border: 1px solid black should, AFAIK should fix it.
This is a problem I have trying to diagnose issues other people have. I have my system so doctored I don't see a lot of the other issues
with visual elements. I saw your image you posted on the web and I noticed you have .... dots and no icon images at the junctions of the
vertical and horizontal lines in the treads. I do however.

https://postimg.cc/9RtyDDBq
Al

[WaltS48]

Thanks for reminding me I need to take that image down. It does show dots.

[Ken Springer]

How did you get the icons at the junctions?

It just baffles me as to why developers for all software and OSes remove
the helpful visual cues while the computer get more and more powerful.


--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Firefox 84.0.1

[WaltS48]

Why do I need icons and what visual cue do they provide?

What was the last version of Thunderbird to have them?

This is TB 17.0 and an image I posted 8 years ago. The thread lines are
dotted.

<https://imgur.com/V4HLx>

This is what I see in Thunderbird 78.6.0 when I select a message.

<https://imgur.com/pGeL1mu>

[Lindsay Graham]

The last few messages in this thread are an excellent example of how ridiculous bottom posting can be.  The time I wasted paging down to find that morsel tucked away at the bottom, when it would have been immediately apparent if top posted!  Let's all use top posting -- it's what we're all used to in both personal and business correspondence, so why revert to an outmoded and cumbersome system in this mailing list?

Lindsay Graham
Canberra, Australia

On 4/1/21 00:33, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 1/2/21 11:43 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

[Molly Mockford]

On 03/01/2021 13:43, Lindsay Graham wrote:
> The last few messages in this thread are an excellent example of how
> ridiculous bottom posting can be.  The time I wasted paging down to find
> that morsel tucked away at the bottom, when it would have been
> immediately apparent if top posted!  Let's all use top posting -- it's
> what we're all used to in both personal and business correspondence, so
> why revert to an outmoded and cumbersome system in this mailing list?

Better still - stick with netiquette in bottom-posting (or interleaved
posting, when relevant) but just take a second to snip away all the
quoted text to which you are not directly replying.
--
Molly Mockford
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton Diamond
Ph.D.)
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

[Big Al]

Some logic I found here/there and just made some new icons. Not sure about the last 3 lines though.
The message.svg is 3 rows of icons 24x24, 6 per row. https://postimg.cc/qt0NJ872 is a png. That's all it saves it as. It might work,
change the code below to png not svg. The image is not transparent. Postimg screwed everything up changing svg to png. Anyway, take it
as a guide. I made the image in inkscape.
I put all this code in one message.css and then in my userchrome.css I just did
@import "message.css";


/* ..... subject column top, right, bottom, left
a lot of the icons in the SVG are not used like: read,new - middle row last item, just can't be true. */

treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol) {
-moz-margin-end: 2px !important;
list-style-image: url("images/message.svg") !important;
-moz-image-region: rect(0 24px 24px 0) !important; } /* top 1st */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, dummy) {
list-style-image: none !important; }
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, read) {
-moz-image-region: rect(24px 24px 48px 0) !important; } /* middle 1st */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, forwarded) {
-moz-image-region: rect(0 72px 24px 48px) !important; } /* top 3rd */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, read, forwarded) {
-moz-image-region: rect(24px 72px 48px 48px) !important; } /* middle 3rd */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, replied) {
-moz-image-region: rect(0 48px 24px 24px) !important; } /* top 2nd */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, read, replied) {
-moz-image-region: rect(24px 48px 48px 24px) !important; } /* middle 2nd */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, replied, forwarded) {
-moz-image-region: rect(0 96px 24px 72px) !important; } /* top 4th */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, read, replied, forwarded) {
-moz-image-region: rect(24px 96px 48px 72px) !important; } /* middle 4th */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, new) {
-moz-image-region: rect(0 144px 24px 120px) !important; } /* top 6th */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, news) {
-moz-image-region: rect(48px 24px 72px 0) !important; } /* bottom 1st */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, news, forwarded) {
-moz-image-region: rect(48px 72px 72px 48px) !important; } /* bottom 3rd */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, news, replied) {
-moz-image-region: rect(48px 48px 72px 24px) !important; } /* bottom 2nd */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, news, replied, forwarded) {
-moz-image-region: rect(48px 96px 72px 72px) !important; } /* bottom 4th */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, news, new) {
-moz-image-region: rect(48px 144px 72px 120px) !important; } /* bottom 6th */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, rss, forwarded) {
-moz-image-region: rect(0 72px 24px 48px) !important; } /* top 3rd */
treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, rss, new) {
-moz-image-region: rect(0 48px 24px 24px) !important; } /* top 2nd */

/* IMPORTANT: make sure the imap-deleted column always comes after the replied/forwarded style rules.
This ensures that we show that the message is marked as deleted over status information. */

treechildren::-moz-tree-image(subjectCol, imapdeleted) {
list-style-image: url("images/message.svg") !important;
-moz-image-region: rect(0 120px 24px 96px) !important; } /* top 5th */

#sizeCol,#unreadCol,#totalCol { text-align: right !important; }
/* Make sure the min height is small so we can resize the pane vertically. */
#messagepanebox { min-height: 10px !important; height: 0px !important; }

[WaltS48]

On 1/3/21 8:43 AM, Lindsay Graham wrote:
> The last few messages in this thread are an excellent example of how
> ridiculous bottom posting can be.  The time I wasted paging down to find
> that morsel tucked away at the bottom, when it would have been
> immediately apparent if top posted!  Let's all use top posting -- it's
> what we're all used to in both personal and business correspondence, so
> why revert to an outmoded and cumbersome system in this mailing list?
>
> Lindsay Graham
> Canberra, Australia
>
>

Well, trimming could help, but I don't get much personal and business
email so bottom posting is what I'm used to using.

"To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting."

<https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/forums/etiquette/>

Apologies for not following da guidelines.

<snip>

[Ken Springer]

On 1/3/21 6:43 AM, Lindsay Graham wrote:
> The last few messages in this thread are an excellent example of how ridiculous bottom posting can be.  The time I wasted paging down to find that morsel tucked away at the bottom, when it would have been immediately apparent if top posted!  Let's all use top posting -- it's what we're all used to in both personal and business correspondence, so why revert to an outmoded and cumbersome system in this mailing list?

I too have been bad a snipping, just got lazy. At the same time, I
wonder what percentage of users even know about netiquette and "doing
the job right"?

So this one is snipped. <G>

As for top or bottom posting, neither way is perfect or "correct".

What is important is everyone in a group follow the rules, and that the
rules are enforced. And enforcement seems to be lacking, so we end up
with a "free for all" of everyone just doing what they want.

And as Walt's post just showed us, neither top or bottom posting is the
newsgroup rule. :-)

[Big Al]

On 1/2/21 11:43 PM, this is what Ken Springer wrote:
>> https://postimg.cc/9RtyDDBq
>
> How did you get the icons at the junctions?
>
> It just baffles me as to why developers for all software and OSes remove the helpful visual cues while the computer get more and more powerful.

The css code I posted earlier requires an SVG image and all I could post is a PNG. Postimg converts my upload to a PNG. So for the heck of
it, I converted the svg to a png and changed the code and sure enough, it works. There is a new png image at https://postimg.cc/gallery/hdgxLFC
Two message.png files, one with and one without envelopes on the reply/forward icons. I saw Walt's image of his threads
https://imgur.com/pGeL1mu and kinda liked the arrows without the envelope. So pick the one you like and change the filename and path in
that css code I posted to fit your image/location.

Anyway, I like the icons, but the single reply arrows are even more revealing.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Or here's a thought that dates back to the early days of Usenet: Use a
reasonably current newsreader that offers threaded viewing (context) and
judiciously trim replies to just the relevent portions.

[Ken Springer]

Thanks, Al, but this is above my paygrade. <G>

[Big Al]

After reading more of your posts, I started to get that impression. It's not everybody's cup of tea.

[Ken Springer]

On 1/3/21 6:33 AM, WaltS48 wrote:
>> It just baffles me as to why developers for all software and OSes remove
>> the helpful visual cues while the computer get more and more powerful.
>>
>>
> Why do I need icons and what visual cue do they provide?

Which of these is more likely to thing of delete/trash? A square with a
triangle on top (Gmail at one time) or a picture of a trash can?

Which of these is more likely to tell you there's seeings or a list if
you click on it? 3 dots or the word Menu?

Which of these is more likely to tell you, you are about to do something
with your document? An arrow, or a filing cabinet.?

I knew an immigrant high school kid one time, from Thailand. I'll be he
didn't know 500 words of English. But he figured out how to use a Mac
with System 6.

The whole purpose of a GUI interface is to make computers easier to use,
not to play a guessing game as to where to click to get some kind of
reaction from the computer.

From https://www.omnisci.com/technical-glossary/graphical-user-interface

Advantages of Graphical User Interfaces

The advantage of a graphical user interface is a stark improvement in
useability for the average person. The features of a graphical user
interface leverage familiar metaphors, such as drag-and-drop for
transferring files, and use familiar icons, such as a trash bin for
deleted files, creating an environment in which computer operations are
intuitive and easily mastered without any prior practice or knowledge of
computing machinery or languages. Graphical user interface applications
are self descriptive, feedback is typically immediate, and visual cues
encourage and steer discoverability.

[WaltS48]

On 1/3/21 3:40 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
> On 1/3/21 6:33 AM, WaltS48 wrote:
>>> It just baffles me as to why developers for all software and OSes remove
>>> the helpful visual cues while the computer get more and more powerful.
>>>
>>>
>> Why do I need icons and what visual cue do they provide?
>
> Which of these is more likely to thing of delete/trash?  A square with a
> triangle on top (Gmail at one time) or a picture of a trash can?
>
> Which of these is more likely to tell you there's seeings or a list if
> you click on it?  3 dots or the word Menu?
>
> Which of these is more likely to tell you, you are about to do something
> with your document?  An arrow, or a filing cabinet.?
>

I thought the discussion was about the dotted thread lines and icons in
the Thread pane and should have been more precise.

My Folder pane has Trash cans for the Trash folder icons.

I prefer the Menu bar over the Menu button, but can use either one. Less
clicking using the Menu button.

I just read the documents. Arrow?

[Ken Springer]

On 1/3/21 12:20 PM, Big Al wrote:
>> Thanks, Al, but this is above my paygrade.  <G>
>>
>>
> After reading more of your posts, I started to get that impression. It's not everybody's cup of tea.

After I bought my first computer, an Atari 800 that I still own, I went
to the local community college and took a course in Basic programming.
Learned one big thing, I don't want to be a programmer! LOL

But I like little things like your folders. I don't think they add much
to make it easier or harder to understand, just cool to have. Rather
like having a hot rod with a great metallic paint job, and then adding
flames to the side. The car doesn't work any better, but it look's
pretty! LOL

To put it more "efficiently", I want to use the wheel, not make the wheel.

[Ken Springer]

On 1/3/21 11:29 AM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
> Or here's a thought that dates back to the early days of Usenet: Use a
> reasonably current newsreader that offers threaded viewing (context) and
> judiciously trim replies to just the relevent portions.

And how did they determine what was relevant? What is relevant to you
may not be relevant to me.

> Lindsay Graham <LDGr...@aapt.net.au> wrote:
>
>> The time I wasted paging down to find that morsel tucked away at the bottom, when it would have been immediately apparent if top posted!
>

[Ken Springer]

On 1/3/21 2:09 PM, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 1/3/21 3:40 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
>> On 1/3/21 6:33 AM, WaltS48 wrote:
>>>> It just baffles me as to why developers for all software and OSes remove
>>>> the helpful visual cues while the computer get more and more powerful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Why do I need icons and what visual cue do they provide?
>>
>> Which of these is more likely to thing of delete/trash?  A square with a
>> triangle on top (Gmail at one time) or a picture of a trash can?
>>
>> Which of these is more likely to tell you there's seeings or a list if
>> you click on it?  3 dots or the word Menu?
>>
>> Which of these is more likely to tell you, you are about to do something
>> with your document?  An arrow, or a filing cabinet.?
>>
>
> I thought the discussion was about the dotted thread lines and icons in
> the Thread pane and should have been more precise.

I took your question to be more generic, sorry.

> My Folder pane has Trash cans for the Trash folder icons.

I have the same icons in the folder pane as you, but I don't remember
ever seeing dotted lines in either the folder pane or message pane. The
thread lines used in File Manager in W3.x makes it really easy to
explain the file system hierarchy. W10's File Explorer is crap for
this, and Apple's Finder is even worse. However, Double Commander does
a decent job in this regard, and it's cross-platform, including Linux.

The icons I have in 60 are much more sophisticated or classy that the
current 74. The 74 default icons look like they are for kindergartners,
IMO. My icons may be due to an extension I've got installed. All but 2
(I think) of the extensions I have installed do not work in the "new"
Firefox.

> I prefer the Menu bar over the Menu button, but can use either one. Less
> clicking using the Menu button.

I do to, which is why I have it selected in Firefox. But some browsers
don't have a menu bar, although there is an extension for Chrome that
does this. I prefer a design where you can have an icon, text, or both.

> I just read the documents. Arrow?

In the current Libre Office, for example, the File Save icon is a square
with a down pointing arrow. Export is a square with a right pointing
arrow. I think a file cabinet with an open drawer is more intuitive, at
the same time stipulating there are no perfect GUIs where an icon evokes
the same response from everyone. Or you could have open folders with an
arrow coming out for loading a file, going in for saving a file.

[Nobody]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:13:38 -0700, Ken Springer <snow...@q.com>
wrote:

>On 1/3/21 11:29 AM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>> Or here's a thought that dates back to the early days of Usenet: Use a
>> reasonably current newsreader that offers threaded viewing (context) and
>> judiciously trim replies to just the relevent portions.
>
>And how did they determine what was relevant? What is relevant to you
>may not be relevant to me.
>
>> Lindsay Graham <LDGr...@aapt.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> The time I wasted paging down to find that morsel tucked away at the bottom, when it would have been immediately apparent if top posted!
>>

But with absolutely no clue as to the context of how that latest
posting relates to the overall discussion... without, er, scrolling
down... and, er, picking through the needles and threads.

[Ken Springer]

Doesn't ForteAgent have thread lines so you don't have to scroll
anywhere? Just point and click?

[Nobody]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:43:18 -0700, Ken Springer <snow...@q.com>

wrote:

>On 1/3/21 5:18 PM, Nobody wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:13:38 -0700, Ken Springer <snow...@q.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/3/21 11:29 AM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>> Or here's a thought that dates back to the early days of Usenet: Use a
>>>> reasonably current newsreader that offers threaded viewing (context) and
>>>> judiciously trim replies to just the relevent portions.
>>>
>>> And how did they determine what was relevant? What is relevant to you
>>> may not be relevant to me.
>>>
>>>> Lindsay Graham <LDGr...@aapt.net.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The time I wasted paging down to find that morsel tucked away at the bottom, when it would have been immediately apparent if top posted!
>>>>
>>
>> But with absolutely no clue as to the context of how that latest
>> posting relates to the overall discussion... without, er, scrolling
>> down... and, er, picking through the needles and threads.
>
>Doesn't ForteAgent have thread lines so you don't have to scroll
>anywhere? Just point and click?

Yes, but so does TB. Therefore, I don't unnerstand others' annoyance
at keeping track in the same way?

Long-time Usenet practice has always been 'bottom post'. Mass email
use later brought in the 'top post' habit, which to me, is
'annoying'... and mail-list followers seem to be the major culprits.