Firefox 71 moves tabs to top again

[John Corliss]

At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar and
bookmarks toolbar.

Not only this, but the new about:config window is more difficult to get
into and also is now lacking the ability to sort the prefs. No
explanation for these changes has been provided AFAIK.

For the time being, the old sortable about:config is still available at:

chrome://global/content/config.xul

--
John Corliss

[Andy Burns]

John Corliss wrote:

> the latest version of Firefox ignores the old userchrome.css hack that
> moved them back down below the address bar and bookmarks toolbar.

it's going to be an on-going battle ...

Have you enabled
"toolkit.legacyUserProfileCustomizations.stylesheets" in about:config?

[WaltS48]

See:
<https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/forum-response-tabs-below-url-bar>

--
OS: Ubuntu Linux 18.04LTS - Gnome Desktop
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/get-involved/

[John Corliss]

On 19/12/04 12:24 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> John Corliss wrote:
>
>> the latest version of Firefox ignores the old userchrome.css hack that
>> moved them back down below the address bar and bookmarks toolbar.
>
> it's going to be an on-going battle ...

Since tabs at the top is such an unpopular UI feature, you'd think that
Mozilla would make it optional. However, these days they're not in the
business of adding good features, just removing them.

One has to wonder which hidden agenda is making this happen.

Another thing I notice is that although they claim that the user's
privacy is of paramount importance to them, they sure do everything in
the world to call out to servers at startup and then hide why it's
happening.

> Have you enabled
> "toolkit.legacyUserProfileCustomizations.stylesheets" in about:config?

Yes, a while back.

--
John Corliss

[WaltS48]

On 12/4/19 8:09 AM, John Corliss wrote:
> On 19/12/04 12:24 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> John Corliss wrote:
>>
>>> the latest version of Firefox ignores the old userchrome.css hack
>>> that moved them back down below the address bar and bookmarks toolbar.
>>
>> it's going to be an on-going battle ...
>
> Since tabs at the top is such an unpopular UI feature, you'd think that
> Mozilla would make it optional. However, these days they're not in the
> business of adding good features, just removing them.

What percentage of users have changed the UI to put tabs on the bottom?

>
> One has to wonder which hidden agenda is making this happen.
>
> Another thing I notice is that although they claim that the user's
> privacy is of paramount importance to them, they sure do everything in
> the world to call out to servers at startup and then hide why it's
> happening.

You may be interested in the Firefox Private Network.

<https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2019/12/03/news-from-firefox-on-mobile-private-network-and-desktop/>

[John Corliss]

On 19/12/04 5:07 AM, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 12/3/19 9:05 PM, John Corliss wrote:
>> At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
>> userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar
>> and bookmarks toolbar.
>>
>> Not only this, but the new about:config window is more difficult to
>> get into and also is now lacking the ability to sort the prefs. No
>> explanation for these changes has been provided AFAIK.
>>
>> For the time being, the old sortable about:config is still available at:
>>
>> chrome://global/content/config.xul
>>
>
> See:
> <https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/forum-response-tabs-below-url-bar>

Unfortunately, that website is undated so I don't know if that's
something I've already done. In the remarks down at the bottom here:

https://www.ghacks.net/2019/12/03/firefox-71-0-release-information-last-firefox-release-of-2019/

"Thorky" provides instructions that look a lot like what's at the link
you provided.

(seconds later)

Well, I read over those remarks and noticed that if you set this

layout.css.xul-box-display-values.survive-blockification.enabled

to "false", it helps. Since I've already done the userchrome.css hack
in the past, it's strange that this setting wasn't already disabled. It
must have gotten reset somehow. I changed it back to "false" and
restarted Firefox. Now my tabs are back below the bookmarks toolbar
where they should be.

--
John Corliss

[WaltS48]

May be another solution here.

<http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=14851112#p14851112>

[mick]

On 04/12/2019 13:18:44, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 12/4/19 8:09 AM, John Corliss wrote:
>> On 19/12/04 12:24 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> John Corliss wrote:
>>>
>>>> the latest version of Firefox ignores the old userchrome.css hack that
>>>> moved them back down below the address bar and bookmarks toolbar.
>>>
>>> it's going to be an on-going battle ...
>>
>> Since tabs at the top is such an unpopular UI feature, you'd think that
>> Mozilla would make it optional. However, these days they're not in the
>> business of adding good features, just removing them.
>
> What percentage of users have changed the UI to put tabs on the bottom?
>

Who knows. All I can say is that 14 people I know who use Firefox have
and want them at the bottom and only one has them at the top and that
is on an iPad.

--
mick

[Wilf]

I've always liked them on the top! But I can see why there should be an
option to do otherwise.

Wilf

[Chris Ilias]

On 2019-12-03 9:05 p.m., John Corliss wrote:
> At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
> userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar and
> bookmarks toolbar.

I haven't tested this, but hear that it works:

#TabsToolbar {
position: absolute !important;
bottom: 0 !important;
width: 100vw !important;
display: block !important;
}


Remember that these scripts are not officially supported. :)

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

[mick]

Yes it does work (on my win10 and linux mint desktops)
Thank you Chris.

--
mick

[John McGaw]

I must admit to being baffled as to why folks get so agitated about this.
Why would someone care that the tabs have been moved, what, 25mm? They are
still there and are still legible and usable. What more is needed? What am
I missing?

It isn't as though the devs decided that tabs should randomly rearrange
themselves around the periphery of the screen every time the program runs
or to make them move themselves so as to be difficult to click (as some
"cute" programs did back when a mouse was a novelty).

[EnDeeGee]

AFAIC a tab is part of the page you are viewing and not be on top of the
screen.

[WaltS48]

The tab will never be part of the page we are viewing.

The page is a website the tab is part of the UI and does contain the
pages URL.

If I disable the Bookmarks Toolbar then it appears to be closer to the
page, but isn't a part of it.

Is having the tabs under the Bookmarks Toolbar what the complaining
users want?

You can use Customize to move the Bookmarks Toolbar into the Tab bar.
But that puts the first tab on the far right of the UI.

[Jeff Layman]

On 05/12/19 01:21, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 12/4/19 7:59 PM, EnDeeGee wrote:
>> On 04-Dec-2019 19:17, John McGaw wrote:
>>> On 12/3/2019 9:05 PM, John Corliss wrote:
>>>> At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
>>>> userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar
>>>> and bookmarks toolbar.
>>>>
>>>> Not only this, but the new about:config window is more difficult to
>>>> get into and also is now lacking the ability to sort the prefs. No
>>>> explanation for these changes has been provided AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>> For the time being, the old sortable about:config is still available at:
>>>>
>>>> chrome://global/content/config.xul
>>>>
>>> I must admit to being baffled as to why folks get so agitated about
>>> this. Why would someone care that the tabs have been moved, what, 25mm?
>>> They are still there and are still legible and usable. What more is
>>> needed? What am I missing?
>>>
>>> It isn't as though the devs decided that tabs should randomly rearrange
>>> themselves around the periphery of the screen every time the program
>>> runs or to make them move themselves so as to be difficult to click (as
>>> some "cute" programs did back when a mouse was a novelty).
>>
>> AFAIC a tab is part of the page you are viewing and not be on top of the
>> screen.
>
> The tab will never be part of the page we are viewing.

I think that he, and I, consider the tab to be an extension of the page
and not removed from it in the way it is now - above the URL bar. If you
consider the equivalent in paper books or files, the tab - for example a
letter in an alphabet list - is directly linked to the page. If it's a
"W" tab, you would expect to find "Walt" directly beneath it, not find
other (irrelevant) wording first.

> The page is a website the tab is part of the UI and does contain the
> pages URL.

Where does that appear in/on the tab? If I open a new tab and click on
"Help | Firefox Help" in the Menu, it opens at
<https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/firefox?as=u&utm_source=inproduct>,
and the tab displays "Firefox Help". How do you get the URL from the
tab? Right-clicking on any tab gives quite a few options, but as far as
I can see none of them reveal the URL

> If I disable the Bookmarks Toolbar then it appears to be closer to the
> page, but isn't a part of it.
>
> Is having the tabs under the Bookmarks Toolbar what the complaining
> users want?

I don't believe so; I think it's having it *below* the URL bar with all
its icons, and effectively "bleeding" into the page you are viewing.

> You can use Customize to move the Bookmarks Toolbar into the Tab bar.
> But that puts the first tab on the far right of the UI.

? I moved mine to the Menu bar, but it doesn't make any difference to
the basic issue of tabs below the URL bar.

I have no idea why the devs seem so against this position of tabs.
Unless there is a basic programming or coding reason why they shouldn't
be there, why are they apparently making it so difficult to attain this
position? If previously effective positioning through prefs or scripts
in a userChrome.css file become inactive with new versions of FF, one
really has to ask why.

--

Jeff

[John Corliss]

On 19/12/04 5:18 AM, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 12/4/19 8:09 AM, John Corliss wrote:
>> On 19/12/04 12:24 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> John Corliss wrote:
>>>
>>>> the latest version of Firefox ignores the old userchrome.css hack
>>>> that moved them back down below the address bar and bookmarks toolbar.
>>>
>>> it's going to be an on-going battle ...
>>
>> Since tabs at the top is such an unpopular UI feature, you'd think
>> that Mozilla would make it optional. However, these days they're not
>> in the business of adding good features, just removing them.
>
> What percentage of users have changed the UI to put tabs on the bottom?

All I know is that there is a lot of complaining about the toolbar being
moved to the top and there being no easy way to move it back to below
the bookmarks toolbar. A LOT of complaining.

>> One has to wonder which hidden agenda is making this happen.
>>
>> Another thing I notice is that although they claim that the user's
>> privacy is of paramount importance to them, they sure do everything in
>> the world to call out to servers at startup and then hide why it's
>> happening.
>
> You may be interested in the Firefox Private Network.
>
> <https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2019/12/03/news-from-firefox-on-mobile-private-network-and-desktop/>

Not sure why, but for some reason this latest update seems to have cut
back on the calling out quite a bit. Notice though, "seems to". I'll be
keeping an eye on it, as usual.

--
John Corliss

[John Corliss]

Thank you. Choice is what it's all about.

--
John Corliss

[John Corliss]

Thanks, but so far so good.

--
John Corliss

[John Corliss]

John McGaw wrote:
> John Corliss wrote:
>> At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
>> userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar
>> and bookmarks toolbar.
>>
>> Not only this, but the new about:config window is more difficult to
>> get into and also is now lacking the ability to sort the prefs. No
>> explanation for these changes has been provided AFAIK.
>>
>> For the time being, the old sortable about:config is still available at:
>>
>> chrome://global/content/config.xul
>>
> I must admit to being baffled as to why folks get so agitated about
> this. Why would someone care that the tabs have been moved, what, 25mm?
> They are still there and are still legible and usable. What more is
> needed? What am I missing?

To me, moving the tab bar above the bookmarks toolbar makes no sense.
The bookmarks toolbar applies to ALL the tabs, unlike the address bar,
which is specific for the currently selected tab.

> It isn't as though the devs decided that tabs should randomly rearrange
> themselves around the periphery of the screen every time the program
> runs or to make them move themselves so as to be difficult to click (as
> some "cute" programs did back when a mouse was a novelty).

People are different. That so many people have objected to the toolbar
being moved to the top speaks loads.

--
John Corliss

[John Corliss]

Agreed. Why is it such a big deal to make the position optional, one has
to ask.

--
John Corliss

[WaltS48]

See <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1601164#c1>

[John McGaw]

On 12/5/2019 8:11 AM, John Corliss wrote:
> People are different. That so many people have objected to the toolbar
> being moved to the top speaks loads

Yes people are different but I would argue that the number of people who
just accept the tabs wherever they show up, as long as they are usable, is
vastly larger than the number who have objected. How many would bother to
try to fine tune something that works just fine given, at most, a few
minutes of mental adjustment?

I'm a long-time heavy user of FF and have never once bothered to override
any CSS to place things where and how I might prefer. It does the job for
me as-is so I've only gone so far as to install a small handful of add-ons,
all security and privacy related.

Just me, of course but as a former software designer and coder I still
believe Voltaire's "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

[Luis]

After fixing (once again) my FF to render rounded orange-border tabs
below the toolbar, I showed the default FF and the fixed one to my 75
years old mom and the younger 7 years old kid in the family. What do you
think I asked. My mom said "I don't know, both are the same". The kid
said "the one with the tabs below."

[Jeff Layman]

LOL! "Opened yesterday Closed yesterday". How does that old maxim go?
"Act in haste; repent at leisure". :-)

For those interested in the background to all this have a look at
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755593>

--

Jeff

[😉 Good Guy 😉]

On 05/12/2019 14:40, John McGaw wrote:

Yes people are different but I would argue that the number of people who just accept the tabs wherever they show up, as long as they are usable, is vastly larger than the number who have objected. How many would bother to try to fine tune something that works just fine given, at most, a few minutes of mental adjustment?

Thank you.  You have put it better than I would have.

I always try to get used to what is available in the new version.  There is no point in grumbling about something when the product has a new design, probably a new programmer and so it is what it is. 

I have left my windows 10 as it is and I really like the new design of it but there are people who have installed all sorts of gadgets to make it look like Windows XP and now they are getting crashes almost everyday and they blame Windows 10.

You can't win them all.

I think this thread is getting OT so I have followed it up to Mozilla General.

--

With over 1,000,000 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

[WaltS48]

I think there is another browser out there, that isn't named Chrome,
that will allow the user to place tabs on top, on the bottom, on the
right or on the left.

I checked it out and preferred the top.

YMMV

[lawofg...@gmail.com]

WOW! Thanks, John! I set layout.css.xul-box-display-values.survive-blockification.enabled to false and it solved my problem. I had been looking for an answer for about an hour this evening.

[John Corliss]

> WOW! Thanks, John! I set layout.css.xul-box-display-values.survive-
> blockification.enabled to false and it solved my problem. I had been
> looking for an answer for about an hour this evening.

Glad I could help somebody. You're very welcome.

--
John Corliss

[auz...@k9kw.com]

I did this also and it worked. THANK YOU VERY MUCH !

[davids...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 9:05:16 PM UTC-5, John Corliss wrote:
> At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
> userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar and
> bookmarks toolbar.
>
> Not only this, but the new about:config window is more difficult to get
> into and also is now lacking the ability to sort the prefs. No
> explanation for these changes has been provided AFAIK.
>
> For the time being, the old sortable about:config is still available at:
>
> chrome://global/content/config.xul
>

> --
> John Corliss

Setting
layout.css.xul-box-display-values.survive-blockification.enabled

to false also put the tabs back on the bottom for me as well. Thanks very much.

Dave Speck

[robe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 9:05:16 PM UTC-5, John Corliss wrote:
> At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
> userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar and
> bookmarks toolbar.
>
> Not only this, but the new about:config window is more difficult to get
> into and also is now lacking the ability to sort the prefs. No
> explanation for these changes has been provided AFAIK.
>
> For the time being, the old sortable about:config is still available at:
>
> chrome://global/content/config.xul
>
> --
> John Corliss

Thanks John! I had the userchrome.css hack from FF 65. Changing about:config worked. Paste the following line into the search bar for best results.

layout.css.xul-box-display-values.survive-blockification.enabled

Then change the status from true to false and restart FF.

Happy to have my lower tabs back.

Best wishes,

RVQ

[ram...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 8:24:04 AM UTC-5, John Corliss wrote:
> On 19/12/04 5:07 AM, WaltS48 wrote:

> > On 12/3/19 9:05 PM, John Corliss wrote:
> >> At least on my computer, the latest version of Firefox ignores the old
> >> userchrome.css hack that moved them back down below the address bar
> >> and bookmarks toolbar.
> >>
> >> Not only this, but the new about:config window is more difficult to
> >> get into and also is now lacking the ability to sort the prefs. No
> >> explanation for these changes has been provided AFAIK.
> >>
> >> For the time being, the old sortable about:config is still available at:
> >>
> >> chrome://global/content/config.xul
> >>
> >

> > See:
> > <https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/forum-response-tabs-below-url-bar>
>
> Unfortunately, that website is undated so I don't know if that's
> something I've already done. In the remarks down at the bottom here:
>
> https://www.ghacks.net/2019/12/03/firefox-71-0-release-information-last-firefox-release-of-2019/
>
> "Thorky" provides instructions that look a lot like what's at the link
> you provided.
>
> (seconds later)
>
> Well, I read over those remarks and noticed that if you set this
>
> layout.css.xul-box-display-values.survive-blockification.enabled
>
> to "false", it helps. Since I've already done the userchrome.css hack
> in the past, it's strange that this setting wasn't already disabled. It
> must have gotten reset somehow. I changed it back to "false" and
> restarted Firefox. Now my tabs are back below the bookmarks toolbar
> where they should be.
>

> --
> John Corliss

Thank you so much John, you're a genius. My tabs are back on bottom.

[Nobody]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 20:44:29 -0800 (PST), lawofg...@gmail.com
wrote:

Ditto... thank you!

Just came back from a long vacation break and updated to v71.0... to
find tabs going north.

Setting that <layout.css> to 'false' cured two things: tabs are back
on bottom... and the superfluous (for me) Overflow Menu bar
disappeared.

[Nobody]

On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 05:23:48 -0800, John Corliss <r9j...@yahoo.com>

Thank you!