Re: Lightning: Calendar. Tasks. What about Notes/Memos?
Peter Lairo
I think we are SOL, unless some kind developer reconsiders the
unfortunate decision from 2005.
On Sat. 12.12.2009 21:45, Rolf Gloor wrote:
> I would love to replace my Outlook with Thunderbird/Lightning. However,
> having such a tremendous amount of information in contacts, calendar,
> tasks as well as in the notes/memos, it is important to me to not loose
> those informations.
>
> While Thunderbird includes the contacts, Lightning adds almost the rest.
>
> There is one part missing. The notes / memos.
>
>
> Is it in Lightning and I have just not found it?
>
> If not, what are the plans.
>
> I really would love to switch to TB+L.
>
>
> Thanks for your feedback.
--
Regards,
Peter Lairo
The browser you can trust: www.Firefox.com
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Anthropogenic Global Warming skepsis: http://tinyurl.com/AGW-Skepsis
Pascal Sartoretti
> See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116945
This bugzilla entry specifically calls for a "notes" feature in
Lightning, which is debatable. Maybe this explains why its state is
"won't fix".
This one, however, has not been rejected (yet?) :
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=285864
And there are a few extensions which provide this, such as ThunderNote:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/7742
My point of view is that notes should be a standard feature of TB :
- All other PIMs have something like this.
- Many Outlook users (TB's target customers) won't migrate without notes.
- It is not so complex.
- Relying on extensions is dangerous : if you choose ThunderNote today,
you have no guarantee that it won't be abandoned by its author in 6
months because of the success of XNote or QuickNote (or the opposite).
An alternative could be an official, Mozilla-blessed extension such as
Lightning for calendering.
- Relying on an external application (such as Tomboy Notes) is overkill.
Pascal
John Thompson
I've never used Outlook so perhaps I'm missing something, but what would
a "Notes" feature add that isn't available e.g. the text "Description"
field of a calendar event?
--
-John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
Andrew DeFaria
I've never used Outlook so perhaps I'm missing something, but what would a "Notes" feature add that isn't available e.g. the text "Description" field of a calendar event?
Rolf Gloor
> See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116945
>
> I think we are SOL, unless some kind developer reconsiders the
> unfortunate decision from 2005.
>
While bug 116945 asks for a more powerfull version of memos/notes in
style of Lotus Organizer / Notes (with chapters, table of contents,
etc.), I was more looking for a very basic plain notepad a là Outlook or
on PDA's.
Greetings,
Rolf
Rolf Gloor
I agree with you regarding the PIM. It is a standard feature of many PIM
app, and therefore should be Standard in TB / Lightning Installation.
Many users - like me - want to transfer there COMPLETE PIM information
into TB/L and not loosing data.
Many also want to sync their data with a PDA/Smartphone, which often
includes a notes / memo part as well.
Also to allow syncing ALL with other services like SyncML with a hosted
solution, it is easier when all apps are within one app / add-on.
Either straight in TB (which presently is not the case) then only in THE
ONE PIM extension Lightning. Which then should include the missing
parts: CALENDAR, TASKS, MEMOS/NOTES.
All with categories and ready to sync with standard apps and sync tools.
Rolf
Rolf Gloor
Hi John
No. This is no replacement.
You can write notes in contacts, events and tasks.
But many PIM's include a seperate notes / memo app.
This does indeed make sense to sketch down some notes.
Moreover this, in Ligthning integrated, notes part is important to
properly sync with other applications.
See as well my comment to Pascals entry.
Rolf
Andrew DeFaria
While bug 116945 asks for a more powerfull version of memos/notes in style of Lotus Organizer / Notes (with chapters, table of contents, etc.), I was more looking for a very basic plain notepad a là Outlook or on PDA's.
Andrew DeFaria
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
Rolf Gloor
> On 12/17/2009 11:25 PM, Rolf Gloor wrote:
>> While bug 116945 asks for a more powerfull version of memos/notes in
>> style of Lotus Organizer / Notes (with chapters, table of contents,
>> etc.), I was more looking for a very basic plain notepad a là Outlook
>> or on PDA's.
> How does making a task and using its description for the note fail to
> mean your needs?
> --
> The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the
> point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
Hi Andrew
Because I use tasks with categories VERY heavily for planning my
complete work. (Based on David Allen's Getting-Things-Done methology GTD).
I have over 250 tasks in 15 categories.
For all notes and information to store, I heavily use the notes
function, with it's own category system.
I have presently almost 100 notes (memos) in 10 categories.
Those entries in tasks and now especially also notes is increasing
heavily, because I am planning on moving a lot of information of another
app into the notes section in order to better sync between my
smartphone, the Groupware solution at my hoster (which will become the
personal cloud central storage for my syncing), and the local
installation on my desktop at the home office as well as on the work side.
So I heavily use ALL functions of a PIM.
For the desktop, I wished I could replace Outlook with TB. Hence the
requirement to cover above mentioned urgent needs.
Does that make sense to you?
Greetings
Rolf
gNeandr
once I used also OL but moved to TB and Reminderfox. But with that
combination I also missed the "Categories" implementation.
Nowadays we have a system including multiple Category items, Filter and
a 'View' system which allows to predefine project oriented listing of
all the event or todos. One of the user I know is also very much driven
by the GTD approach and he loves the concept.
I would like to hear your feedback also, have a look here:
http://reminderfox.mozdev.org/
There is a open point: TB/AB and Lightning doesn't support category
item, you can add the "MorefunctionsforAddressbook"
https://nic-nac-project.org/~kaosmos/index-en.html but you to separate
ICS data with Reminderfox from LG or you will loose all the categories.
Waiting for improvement for LG
Günter
Pascal Sartoretti
> On 12/17/2009 03:54 PM, John Thompson wrote:
>> I've never used Outlook so perhaps I'm missing something, but what
>> would a "Notes" feature add that isn't available e.g. the text
>> "Description" field of a calendar event?
Such a hack is feasible if you seldom use notes. I currently have 188
notes...
> Instead I'd just use a Task that doesn't have a due date and use it's
> description for the "note".
Same thing. It is just a workaround. I wouldn't do it everyday.
I agree that notes are rather used by power users, but they are exactly
the target users of Thunderbird !
Pascal
PS: yes, I am also a GTD fanatic...
Pascal Sartoretti
> Also to allow syncing ALL with other services like SyncML with a hosted
> solution, it is easier when all apps are within one app / add-on.
Yet another reason to have notes as a standalone element : SyncML
supports them.
Pascal
Pascal Sartoretti
I fully agree. Implementing bug 116945 would be a mistake, this goes
much too far. If you really need chapters, pages and formatting, then
use a dedicated application such as Tomboy Notes; it is open source, and
available on Linux/Windows/Mac.
Pascal
Peter Lairo
How would a *simple HTML editor* that provides the most basic HTML
features be "overkill"? All we really need is a web page that is
integrated into Thunderbird/Lightning that can handle the following
basic HTML:
- TOC
- Heading1, Heading2, ...
- anchor (to jump to chapters aka headings)
- bold, underline, italic
- font-family
- font-size
- link (to web pages)
- image (optional/later, because it requires handling external files)
- Bonus: Link to entries in Thunderbird's address book, events, etc.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=137777
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167669
https://bug137777.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=418349
We already have a HTML editor, so it's not like we're creating one from
scratch. Most of what we need is already there.
Regarding and external dedicated application: I don't want yet another
program that I have to maintain and another file that I have to remember
to copy to all my PCs every day.
I need a convenient and central place where I can keep information that
I can access quickly and from anywhere.
Examples of information I store in Lotus Organizer's (still the best
PIM) built-in notepad:
- Computer instructions
- my ISP settings, UNs and PWs
- How-to steps for the software I use
e.g. Excel: Combine a formula and text
IrfanView: Batch rename photo files to use the ISO date
format using the EXIF tag "DateTimeOriginal"
- List of serial numbers of my hardware and home appliances
- Work-related reference info
- Summary of AHERA requirements
- sampling procedures
- unit-costs and important steps for surveys
- easy to forget office procedures (e.g., forms for sick leave)
- How-to's for advanced features of office phone system
- Other
- books i want to buy / read
- B-Day Poem from Mom
- favorite recipes
- etc...
Check out the screen-shots of Lotus Organizer's Notepad:
- TOC: https://bug116945.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=67590
- Page: https://bug116945.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=62767
Pascal Sartoretti
> How would a *simple HTML editor* that provides the most basic HTML
> features be "overkill"? All we really need is a web page that is
> integrated into Thunderbird/Lightning that can handle the following
> basic HTML
Ok, but then you lose the ability to sync with other devices which only
understand text notes. Or the ability to easily migrate to an other
application (trust me : I had to migrate from Evernote and it was a
nightmare).
> - TOC
> - Heading1, Heading2, ...
> - anchor (to jump to chapters aka headings)
> - bold, underline, italic
> - font-family
> - font-size
> - link (to web pages)
> - image (optional/later, because it requires handling external files)
And then you probably want to add links _between_ notes, or you want to
organize your notes in folders, and then suddenly the project gets 10
times bigger because of feature creep.
> I need a convenient and central place where I can keep information that
> I can access quickly and from anywhere.
I fully agree. I need these infos on my smartphone, and _all_ the
smartphones I have owned (Treos, SonyEricsson, iPhone) supported text
notes, but _none_ knew about HTML notes.
> Examples of information I store in Lotus Organizer's (still the best
> PIM) built-in notepad
I am also a former Lotus Organizer user, and what I long for is its
simplicity :-)
> - Computer instructions
> - my ISP settings, UNs and PWs
> - How-to steps for the software I use
> e.g. Excel: Combine a formula and text
> IrfanView: Batch rename photo files to use the ISO date
> format using the EXIF tag "DateTimeOriginal"
> - List of serial numbers of my hardware and home appliances
>
> - Work-related reference info
> - Summary of AHERA requirements
> - sampling procedures
> - unit-costs and important steps for surveys
> - easy to forget office procedures (e.g., forms for sick leave)
> - How-to's for advanced features of office phone system
>
> - Other
> - books i want to buy / read
> - B-Day Poem from Mom
> - favorite recipes
> - etc...
I store the same kind of infos in my notes, and text format is enough in
99% of the times. The only thing that would have helped me in some cases
: tables. I did an Excel sheet instead, stored in DropBox.
Pascal
Keith Nuttle
author has not issued the TB 3.0 comparable version.
It provides several free form page.
Andrew DeFaria
Hi Andrew
Because I use tasks with categories VERY heavily for planning my complete work. (Based on David Allen's Getting-Things-Done methology GTD).
I have over 250 tasks in 15 categories.
For all notes and information to store, I heavily use the notes function, with it's own category system.
I have presently almost 100 notes (memos) in 10 categories.
Good luck.
Peter Lairo
> On 18.12.2009 12:34, Peter Lairo wrote:
>> How would a *simple HTML editor* that provides the most basic HTML
>> features be "overkill"? All we really need is a web page that is
>> integrated into Thunderbird/Lightning that can handle the following
>> basic HTML
>
> Ok, but then you lose the ability to sync with other devices which only
> understand text notes. Or the ability to easily migrate to an other
> application (trust me : I had to migrate from Evernote and it was a
> nightmare).
Snyc could just strip the HTML - like Thunderbird does when sending
e-mails as plaintext.
>> - TOC
>> - Heading1, Heading2, ...
>> - anchor (to jump to chapters aka headings)
>> - bold, underline, italic
>> - font-family
>> - font-size
>> - link (to web pages)
>> - image (optional/later, because it requires handling external files)
>
> And then you probably want to add links _between_ notes, or you want to
> organize your notes in folders, and then suddenly the project gets 10
> times bigger because of feature creep.
Feature creep can be managed on an as-needed and available-resources
basis. That is not a good reason to not implement a very useful feature.
Links between notes should be easy via the already needed anchors &
links. Folders (aka pages) would be nice to have, but not essential.
>> I need a convenient and central place where I can keep information that
>> I can access quickly and from anywhere.
>
> I fully agree. I need these infos on my smartphone, and _all_ the
> smartphones I have owned (Treos, SonyEricsson, iPhone) supported text
> notes, but _none_ knew about HTML notes.
Strip the HTML when syncing (see above) and/or don't use HTML when
creating your notes (they'll be gone when you sync back from non-HTML
devices anyhow). I (and I suspect most others) don't need notes on my
smartphone.
>> Examples of information I store in Lotus Organizer's (still the best
>> PIM) built-in notepad
>
> I am also a former Lotus Organizer user, and what I long for is its
> simplicity :-)
Amazingly, Organizer still works with Windows 7, except that the date
entry fields don't work (workaround: double-click on the desired date to
create an event for that date).
>> - Computer instructions
>> - my ISP settings, UNs and PWs
>> - How-to steps for the software I use
>> e.g. Excel: Combine a formula and text
>> IrfanView: Batch rename photo files to use the ISO date
>> format using the EXIF tag "DateTimeOriginal"
>> - List of serial numbers of my hardware and home appliances
>>
>> - Work-related reference info
>> - Summary of AHERA requirements
>> - sampling procedures
>> - unit-costs and important steps for surveys
>> - easy to forget office procedures (e.g., forms for sick leave)
>> - How-to's for advanced features of office phone system
>>
>> - Other
>> - books i want to buy / read
>> - B-Day Poem from Mom
>> - favorite recipes
>> - etc...
>
> I store the same kind of infos in my notes, and text format is enough in
> 99% of the times.
For large amounts of info (as I have), it helps to have a TOC with links
to the sections. Also being able to highlight important text (bold) is
very useful.
> The only thing that would have helped me in some cases
> : tables. I did an Excel sheet instead, stored in DropBox.
Yes, tables would be great too (I forgot about them because Organizer
doesn't do them). Fortunately, Thunderbird's rendering engine has
table-capability already built-in.
PS. Please vote for bug 116945
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116945
Peter Lairo
> On 16.12.2009 22:41, Peter Lairo wrote:
>> See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116945
>
> you have no guarantee that it won't be abandoned by its author in 6
> months because of the success of XNote or QuickNote (or the opposite).
> An alternative could be an official, Mozilla-blessed extension such as
> Lightning for calendering.
I fully agree with that assessment. That is why is strongly disagree
that bug 116945 was WONTFIXed.
gNeandr
Does this mean finally you are going to code for Lightning?! A lot of
people would appreciate it very much ..
[18.12.2009 12:34] »Peter Lairo« wrote:
> so it's not like we're creating one from scratch
To be honest. Speaking about an application like Lightning is one story,
the other is about apps like Lotus.
This comparison isn't OK. Lotus maybe the best program on the planet
(for what ever purpose), but it's not a calendar based on RFC/ICS etc
standards.
And here are the important points:
- AFAIKS 'DESCRIPTION:' (the part where an Event/Todo has it's free
text) are described very precise
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-07#section-3.1),
this doesn't allow a HTML notation
- the URL is the vehicle for links
- 'X-'Property
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-07#section-3.8.8.2)
is the vehicle for any 'additional' information, element, action .. what
ever you want -- BUT using this you create very much a (calendar) system
which isn't compatible with the rest of the 'ICS'-word.
Not to say a much more 'integrated' system of mailing, addressbook,
calendering, note handling would be a fine tool. But all of that is a
matter of resources .. and you are following the different threads and
news groups so know about that thematic.
I'm sure the MOZ/TB teams and leaders would be more than happy to find
additioanl resources and manpower.
Christmas is around the corner: The time for wishes, a good time for
children.
Frohe Weihnachten
Günter
Peter Lairo
> @Peter
> Does this mean finally you are going to code for Lightning?! A lot of
> people would appreciate it very much ..
No, I will not be coding. My capabilities and talents lie in different
(and equally important) areas (like earning a living and raising my
children).
Your snarky comment was unnecessary, condescending, and insulting. I had
hoped that the arrogant attitude that "only programmers can make
meaningful contributions" had died long ago. I have spent countless
hours of my personal time thinking about improvements to mozilla,
formulating bug reports, creating design specifications, and argumented
against what I thought were bad decisions. My time is valuable to me.
For you to then come with a snarky comment like that just pisses me off
and makes me think that much less of you.
> [18.12.2009 12:34] »Peter Lairo« wrote:
>> so it's not like we're creating one from scratch
>
> To be honest. Speaking about an application like Lightning is one story,
> the other is about apps like Lotus.
> This comparison isn't OK. Lotus maybe the best program on the planet
> (for what ever purpose), but it's not a calendar based on RFC/ICS etc
> standards.
Your comment makes no sense at all. The "purpose" is to have a great
PIM. Organizer is 10+ years old. For its time, it supported
import/export of a HUGE(!!!) number of the then current standards.
> And here are the important points:
> - AFAIKS 'DESCRIPTION:' (the part where an Event/Todo has it's free
> text) are described very precise
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-07#section-3.1),
> this doesn't allow a HTML notation
I'm not talking about the "Description" field. I'm talking about a
"Notes" section in Thunderbird that is independent of individual events.
The more I think about it, the more I realize that a Notes feature
should probably be a separate "module" like the address book and
Lightning. So this NG might not be the best place to discuss a Notes
feature. But since it is so similar to Lightning (i.e. a module),
somewhat related to a calendar (track & remember info), and since I
don't know where else to best bring this up (and up until just now
didn't realize it's not primarily a calendar issue - but its own
"module"), perhaps, for now, it can be discussed here?
> - the URL is the vehicle for links
> - 'X-'Property
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-07#section-3.8.8.2)
> is the vehicle for any 'additional' information, element, action .. what
> ever you want -- BUT using this you create very much a (calendar) system
> which isn't compatible with the rest of the 'ICS'-word.
Sounds true. Perhaps a Notes feature doesn't need to be part of the ICS
world? Perhaps it would be sufficient if it could be synced via calDAV
or webDAV or Weave?
> Not to say a much more 'integrated' system of mailing, addressbook,
> calendering, note handling would be a fine tool. But all of that is a
> matter of resources .. and you are following the different threads and
> news groups so know about that thematic.
I'm not complaining about the lack of progress. I'm disappointed that
bug 116945 was WONTFIXed and I want to generate some support and
consensus on a Notes feature (to make the chance of it ever being
implemented be greater than zero). "Future" would be fine with me.
> I'm sure the MOZ/TB teams and leaders would be more than happy to find
> additioanl resources and manpower.
As would we all.
Perhaps the OSS community should pool its resources and merge the
programmers from several calendar projects...? We're moving too slowly
right now to ever get a competitive product out the door.
> Christmas is around the corner: The time for wishes, a good time for
> children.
It's all pretend. (but yes, children really do enjoy the fantasy)
> Frohe Weihnachten
Happy Winter Solstice / Frohe Wintersonnenwende ;-)
gNeandr
On Fri. 18.12.2009 19:16, gNeandr wrote:
@Peter
Does this mean finally you are going to code for Lightning?! A lot of
people would appreciate it very much ..
No, I will not be coding. My capabilities and talents lie in different (and equally important) areas (like earning a living and raising my children).
Your snarky comment was unnecessary, condescending, and insulting. I had hoped that the arrogant attitude that "only programmers can make meaningful contributions" had died long ago. I have spent countless hours of my personal time thinking about improvements to mozilla, formulating bug reports, creating design specifications, and argumented against what I thought were bad decisions. My time is valuable to me. For you to then come with a snarky comment like that just pisses me off and makes me think that much less of you.
a point I forgot, compare with the above:
Does this mean finally you are going to code for Lightning?! A lot of people would appreciate it very much .. ;-)
Maybe it was not intended that serious :-) ... this was what got my attention here:
We already have a HTML editor, so it's not like we're creating one from scratch.
Take it easy
Günter
Peter Lairo
>> from scratch.
Perhaps XUL is overrated for efficiently creating UI (for Notes); and
the need to create cross-platform software for very minor OSs (Linus &
Max) is overrated too, if my impression that the rendering engine is by
far the most complex part of creating HTML + a UI for it is false. :-\
But that's almost certainly not something that is up for consideration.
Pascal
> Perhaps XUL is overrated for efficiently creating UI (for Notes); and
> the need to create cross-platform software for very minor OSs (Linus &
> Max) is overrated too
I strongly disagree. Thunderbird is intended for power users, who
certainly use more Mac or Linux machines than regular users. The average
Windows user is happy with web mail for private use (and MS Outlook at
work).
Maybe Mozilla can provide us with their downloads statistics for
Win/Mac/Linux ?
Pascal
Peter Lairo
I sure hope Thunderbird is *not* primarily or solely "intended for power
users". That is IIRC what Seamonkey is for (and the low usage stats show
it). I hope Thunderbird's philosophy is closer to mozilla's ("developed
in a way that benefits *everyone*") and Firefox's (simple and easy to use).
I suspect you would be surprised at the download stats (Windows vs.
minor players). ;-)
Power to the masses! ;:o
Anyhow, this is all kinda OT.