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MDN Product Vision
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Justin Crawford
Aug 29, 2014, 1:38:05 PM8/29/14
to mdn-drivers
Hi there-
Every time we go through a prioritization process[0] or make feature
decisions about existing products, we should be considering product fit:
Does the need or proposal fit with the stated vision of an existing
product? To answer this, I'd like to refer to a product vision[5] and
set of product principles[6]. These materials help us make consistent
decisions about a product and over time make products feel unified and
focused.
Here's an example: If someone proposed that MDN should have some content
behind a paywall in order to support Mozilla's revenue diversification,
we would look to MDN's vision and principles to understand if a
paywall-for-revenue was aligned.
I did a quick audit of MDN's vision-and-mission-type statements and
found a few. An older (original?) vision statement suggests a very broad
vision[3]. The overview on wikimo[1] presents a narrower vision. And the
about page on MDN[2] offers a mission that is narrower still.
Now, there's a difference between missions and visions[4]. It is not
clear if that difference is being expressed by the existing documents,
or whether the two concepts are being used interchangeably. I assume
they are being used interchangeably for now since they aren't both
present at any single source. MDN's mission is the most recent.
So, considering MDN's mission, I have a question for the group to
consider and discuss: Is the Mozilla Developer Network a technical
documentation resource? If not -- if it's something else -- what is it?
What is the great vision[5] MDN is aimed toward?
Have a great weekend!
[0]
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Engagement/Developer_Engagement/Process_Documents#Prioritization
[1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/MDN (circa 2012) says "MDN is a web
development resource that anyone can contribute to. With your help, we
hope to build resources for a better web, regardless of brand, browser
or platform."
[2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/MDN/About (circa Feb. 2014)
says "MDN's mission is simple: to provide complete, accurate, and
helpful documentation for everything about the open Web
<https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web>, whether it's supported
by Mozilla-built software or not. If it's an open technology exposed to
the Web, we want to document it."
[3]
https://docs.google.com/a/mozilla.com/document/pub?id=1MMkTDH2TqGpEm__oZQgCwTCk1wEs6lQ9FL8n74NG2ko&pli=1
(circa 2010) says "The Mozilla Developer Network is a resource that
brings together the various developer communities within the Mozilla
project and provides a platform for all developers to learn, share, and
collaborate."
[4] http://www.diffen.com/difference/Mission_Statement_vs_Vision_Statement
[5]
http://blog.coryfoy.com/2014/01/product-vision-statements-aka-your-elevator-pitch/
[6] http://www.svpg.com/product-principles-aka-product-manifesto/
--
Justin Crawford
Product Manager, Developer Relations | Mozilla
hoos...@mozilla.com
Every time we go through a prioritization process[0] or make feature
decisions about existing products, we should be considering product fit:
Does the need or proposal fit with the stated vision of an existing
product? To answer this, I'd like to refer to a product vision[5] and
set of product principles[6]. These materials help us make consistent
decisions about a product and over time make products feel unified and
focused.
Here's an example: If someone proposed that MDN should have some content
behind a paywall in order to support Mozilla's revenue diversification,
we would look to MDN's vision and principles to understand if a
paywall-for-revenue was aligned.
I did a quick audit of MDN's vision-and-mission-type statements and
found a few. An older (original?) vision statement suggests a very broad
vision[3]. The overview on wikimo[1] presents a narrower vision. And the
about page on MDN[2] offers a mission that is narrower still.
Now, there's a difference between missions and visions[4]. It is not
clear if that difference is being expressed by the existing documents,
or whether the two concepts are being used interchangeably. I assume
they are being used interchangeably for now since they aren't both
present at any single source. MDN's mission is the most recent.
So, considering MDN's mission, I have a question for the group to
consider and discuss: Is the Mozilla Developer Network a technical
documentation resource? If not -- if it's something else -- what is it?
What is the great vision[5] MDN is aimed toward?
Have a great weekend!
[0]
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Engagement/Developer_Engagement/Process_Documents#Prioritization
[1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/MDN (circa 2012) says "MDN is a web
development resource that anyone can contribute to. With your help, we
hope to build resources for a better web, regardless of brand, browser
or platform."
[2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/MDN/About (circa Feb. 2014)
says "MDN's mission is simple: to provide complete, accurate, and
helpful documentation for everything about the open Web
<https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web>, whether it's supported
by Mozilla-built software or not. If it's an open technology exposed to
the Web, we want to document it."
[3]
https://docs.google.com/a/mozilla.com/document/pub?id=1MMkTDH2TqGpEm__oZQgCwTCk1wEs6lQ9FL8n74NG2ko&pli=1
(circa 2010) says "The Mozilla Developer Network is a resource that
brings together the various developer communities within the Mozilla
project and provides a platform for all developers to learn, share, and
collaborate."
[4] http://www.diffen.com/difference/Mission_Statement_vs_Vision_Statement
[5]
http://blog.coryfoy.com/2014/01/product-vision-statements-aka-your-elevator-pitch/
[6] http://www.svpg.com/product-principles-aka-product-manifesto/
--
Justin Crawford
Product Manager, Developer Relations | Mozilla
hoos...@mozilla.com
Stormy Peters
Aug 29, 2014, 3:39:49 PM8/29/14
to Justin Crawford, mdn-drivers
The plan is to integrate the additional services that we have as they prove
successful:
* StackOverflow
* UserVoice
And also to add more ways to learn:
* See what toolsets others use
* Demos
And additional ways to integrate/connect with your other developer sites
and tools:
* Github integration
And ways to share or demonstrate your knowledge:
* Profiles
* Badges
So, if you look at the roadmap, it's more than documentation. It'll be a
hub for developer learning, connection and connections.
Stormy
On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Justin Crawford <hoos...@mozilla.com>
wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
>
successful:
* StackOverflow
* UserVoice
And also to add more ways to learn:
* See what toolsets others use
* Demos
And additional ways to integrate/connect with your other developer sites
and tools:
* Github integration
And ways to share or demonstrate your knowledge:
* Profiles
* Badges
So, if you look at the roadmap, it's more than documentation. It'll be a
hub for developer learning, connection and connections.
Stormy
On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Justin Crawford <hoos...@mozilla.com>
wrote:
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
>
John Karahalis
Sep 2, 2014, 10:47:48 AM9/2/14
to Justin Crawford, mdn-drivers
If it helps, there is one more document that outlines our vision. The document even includes a five-year vision for MDN.
Ali: Do you happen to remember where this document is? If I remember correctly, we were collaborating on it in late 2013 / early 2014.
--
John Karahalis
Mozilla
openjck.com
----- Original Message -----
Ali: Do you happen to remember where this document is? If I remember correctly, we were collaborating on it in late 2013 / early 2014.
--
John Karahalis
Mozilla
openjck.com
----- Original Message -----
Janet Swisher
Sep 2, 2014, 3:53:49 PM9/2/14
to Stormy Peters, Justin Crawford, mdn-drivers
I agree that it would be helpful to define a vision for MDN that
articulates what unifies the plan laid out below.
I created an etherpad, because drafting this kind of thing over email
doesn't work very well. I used the vision statement template from [5] to
create a strawman statement to hack on. If you prefer some other vision
statement format, feel free to throw it in.
https://devengage.etherpad.mozilla.org/MDN-vision-2014
(BTW, I find the 2010 document remarkably relevant, even though many of
the surface details and most of the program owners have changed. I think
much of the work we did to try to define the Mozilla Developer Program
is also still relevant, because it describes what we want to provide for
developers.)
On 8/29/14, 2:39 PM, Stormy Peters wrote:
> The plan is to integrate the additional services that we have as they prove
> successful:
> * StackOverflow
> * UserVoice
>
> And also to add more ways to learn:
> * See what toolsets others use
> * Demos
>
> And additional ways to integrate/connect with your other developer sites
> and tools:
> * Github integration
>
> And ways to share or demonstrate your knowledge:
> * Profiles
> * Badges
>
> So, if you look at the roadmap, it's more than documentation. It'll be a
> hub for developer learning, connection and connections.
>
> Stormy
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Justin Crawford <hoos...@mozilla.com>
> wrote:
>
Mozilla Developer Network <https://developer.mozilla.org>
Developer Relations Community Organizer
articulates what unifies the plan laid out below.
I created an etherpad, because drafting this kind of thing over email
doesn't work very well. I used the vision statement template from [5] to
create a strawman statement to hack on. If you prefer some other vision
statement format, feel free to throw it in.
https://devengage.etherpad.mozilla.org/MDN-vision-2014
(BTW, I find the 2010 document remarkably relevant, even though many of
the surface details and most of the program owners have changed. I think
much of the work we did to try to define the Mozilla Developer Program
is also still relevant, because it describes what we want to provide for
developers.)
On 8/29/14, 2:39 PM, Stormy Peters wrote:
> The plan is to integrate the additional services that we have as they prove
> successful:
> * StackOverflow
> * UserVoice
>
> And also to add more ways to learn:
> * See what toolsets others use
> * Demos
>
> And additional ways to integrate/connect with your other developer sites
> and tools:
> * Github integration
>
> And ways to share or demonstrate your knowledge:
> * Profiles
> * Badges
>
> So, if you look at the roadmap, it's more than documentation. It'll be a
> hub for developer learning, connection and connections.
>
> Stormy
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Justin Crawford <hoos...@mozilla.com>
> wrote:
>
>> [5] http://blog.coryfoy.com/2014/01/product-vision-statements-
>> aka-your-elevator-pitch/
>> [6] http://www.svpg.com/product-principles-aka-product-manifesto/
>>
>>
--
Janet Swisher <mailto:jREMOVE...@mozilla.com>
>> aka-your-elevator-pitch/
>> [6] http://www.svpg.com/product-principles-aka-product-manifesto/
>>
>>
--
Mozilla Developer Network <https://developer.mozilla.org>
Developer Relations Community Organizer
Luke Crouch
Sep 2, 2014, 5:33:37 PM9/2/14
to Justin Crawford, mdn-drivers
Can't fit this into 5 sentences, sorry.
How I see our current "technical documentation resource" vision in the
"Crossing the Chasm" model:
For web developers who need to know how to write their next block of
code, MDN is a reference resource that's up-to-date, cohesive, and accurate.
Unlike w3schools, MDN is actively maintained by hundreds of web
developers and content is distributed under a CC-BY-SA license.
How I'd *like* to see an expanded MDN vision in the "Crossing the Chasm"
model:
For developers who are building web-powered products, MDN is an online
community of their fellow developers discussing and creating the docs,
tools, and services they *need,* to make whatever they *want.*
Unlike Google, Apple, or Microsoft, at MDN, *developers* control the
resources we produce.
My personal vision of MDN:
When I think, "I've got 5 minutes and I want to do something to help the
open web." I should go straight to MDN.
I want to have MDN drive (not necessarily deliver) these notifications
to my Inbox (email or otherwise):
* wbamberg edited Firefox Add-ons Content Scripts page
* Tomorrow: Join 19 developers at "Tulsa Web Developers"
* You can answer: "HTML5: How do I use a query parameter ..."
* You can code: TabView component for Brick 2.0
* Your "App Permissions" idea has been updated
Then, FWIW, this is a mission statement we helped Jay Patel write back
in 2011 that still expresses my vision for MDN.
"We are an open community of developers building resources for a better
web, regardless of brand, browser or platform. Anyone can contribute and
each person who does makes us stronger. Together we can continue to
drive innovation on the Web to serve the greater good. It starts here,
with you."
Note: this would all be a substantial "pivot" from a
docs/resource/writing vision towards a more holistic community/network
vision.
Thanks for starting the thread, Justin.
-L
How I see our current "technical documentation resource" vision in the
"Crossing the Chasm" model:
For web developers who need to know how to write their next block of
code, MDN is a reference resource that's up-to-date, cohesive, and accurate.
Unlike w3schools, MDN is actively maintained by hundreds of web
developers and content is distributed under a CC-BY-SA license.
How I'd *like* to see an expanded MDN vision in the "Crossing the Chasm"
model:
For developers who are building web-powered products, MDN is an online
community of their fellow developers discussing and creating the docs,
tools, and services they *need,* to make whatever they *want.*
Unlike Google, Apple, or Microsoft, at MDN, *developers* control the
resources we produce.
My personal vision of MDN:
When I think, "I've got 5 minutes and I want to do something to help the
open web." I should go straight to MDN.
I want to have MDN drive (not necessarily deliver) these notifications
to my Inbox (email or otherwise):
* wbamberg edited Firefox Add-ons Content Scripts page
* Tomorrow: Join 19 developers at "Tulsa Web Developers"
* You can answer: "HTML5: How do I use a query parameter ..."
* You can code: TabView component for Brick 2.0
* Your "App Permissions" idea has been updated
Then, FWIW, this is a mission statement we helped Jay Patel write back
in 2011 that still expresses my vision for MDN.
"We are an open community of developers building resources for a better
web, regardless of brand, browser or platform. Anyone can contribute and
each person who does makes us stronger. Together we can continue to
drive innovation on the Web to serve the greater good. It starts here,
with you."
Note: this would all be a substantial "pivot" from a
docs/resource/writing vision towards a more holistic community/network
vision.
Thanks for starting the thread, Justin.
-L
Stephanie Hobson
Sep 9, 2014, 5:43:07 PM9/9/14
to Janet Swisher, Stormy Peters, Justin Crawford, mdn-drivers
Maybe this is something we should be discussing in December when we're
all together? (except that might exclude some people who can't travel,
and that would be sad). But I don't think we have much momentum on the
email list and this is an important discussion.
On 2014-09-02, 12:53, Janet Swisher wrote:
> I agree that it would be helpful to define a vision for MDN that
> articulates what unifies the plan laid out below.
>
> I created an etherpad, because drafting this kind of thing over email
> doesn't work very well. I used the vision statement template from [5]
> to create a strawman statement to hack on. If you prefer some other
> vision statement format, feel free to throw it in.
>
> https://devengage.etherpad.mozilla.org/MDN-vision-2014
I added some stuff to the etherpad.
I also really liked this from Luke:
all together? (except that might exclude some people who can't travel,
and that would be sad). But I don't think we have much momentum on the
email list and this is an important discussion.
On 2014-09-02, 12:53, Janet Swisher wrote:
> I agree that it would be helpful to define a vision for MDN that
> articulates what unifies the plan laid out below.
>
> I created an etherpad, because drafting this kind of thing over email
> doesn't work very well. I used the vision statement template from [5]
> to create a strawman statement to hack on. If you prefer some other
> vision statement format, feel free to throw it in.
>
> https://devengage.etherpad.mozilla.org/MDN-vision-2014
I also really liked this from Luke:
Justin Crawford
Sep 10, 2014, 2:09:44 PM9/10/14
to Stephanie Hobson, mdn-drivers, Janet Swisher, Stormy Peters
> Maybe this is something we should be discussing in December when we're
> all together? (except that might exclude some people who can't travel,
> and that would be sad). But I don't think we have much momentum on the
> email list and this is an important discussion.
I think what you are interpreting as a lack of momentum is actually a
> all together? (except that might exclude some people who can't travel,
> and that would be sad). But I don't think we have much momentum on the
> email list and this is an important discussion.
lack of oxygen. A significant reorganization came close on the heels of
this thread's initial email, and many people are talking about it in
many places, which has made this thread a little quiet.
I don't think we should wait until December to continue the conversation
about MDN's vision. It won't wait.
Janet's approach is the same approach I had in mind. I would like to see
more of us try penning a product vision statement in the "Crossing the
Chasm" format. Our collective efforts in this conversation are going to
determine our direction.
https://devengage.etherpad.mozilla.org/MDN-vision-2014
Now is a great time to think expansively about how MDN can change the world!
Justin
> Stephanie Hobson <mailto:sho...@mozilla.com>
> September 9, 2014 3:43 PM
> September 2, 2014 1:53 PM
> I agree that it would be helpful to define a vision for MDN that
> articulates what unifies the plan laid out below.
>
> I created an etherpad, because drafting this kind of thing over email
> doesn't work very well. I used the vision statement template from [5]
> to create a strawman statement to hack on. If you prefer some other
> vision statement format, feel free to throw it in.
>
> https://devengage.etherpad.mozilla.org/MDN-vision-2014
>
> articulates what unifies the plan laid out below.
>
> I created an etherpad, because drafting this kind of thing over email
> doesn't work very well. I used the vision statement template from [5]
> to create a strawman statement to hack on. If you prefer some other
> vision statement format, feel free to throw it in.
>
> https://devengage.etherpad.mozilla.org/MDN-vision-2014
>
> (BTW, I find the 2010 document remarkably relevant, even though many
> of the surface details and most of the program owners have changed. I
> think much of the work we did to try to define the Mozilla Developer
> Program is also still relevant, because it describes what we want to
> provide for developers.)
>
> On 8/29/14, 2:39 PM, Stormy Peters wrote:
>
> Stormy Peters <mailto:sto...@mozilla.com>
> of the surface details and most of the program owners have changed. I
> think much of the work we did to try to define the Mozilla Developer
> Program is also still relevant, because it describes what we want to
> provide for developers.)
>
> On 8/29/14, 2:39 PM, Stormy Peters wrote:
>
> August 29, 2014 1:39 PM
> The plan is to integrate the additional services that we have as they
> prove successful:
> * StackOverflow
> * UserVoice
>
> And also to add more ways to learn:
> * See what toolsets others use
> * Demos
>
> And additional ways to integrate/connect with your other developer
> sites and tools:
> * Github integration
>
> And ways to share or demonstrate your knowledge:
> * Profiles
> * Badges
>
> So, if you look at the roadmap, it's more than documentation. It'll be
> a hub for developer learning, connection and connections.
>
> Stormy
>
>
>
> Justin Crawford <mailto:hoos...@mozilla.com>
> prove successful:
> * StackOverflow
> * UserVoice
>
> And also to add more ways to learn:
> * See what toolsets others use
> * Demos
>
> And additional ways to integrate/connect with your other developer
> sites and tools:
> * Github integration
>
> And ways to share or demonstrate your knowledge:
> * Profiles
> * Badges
>
> So, if you look at the roadmap, it's more than documentation. It'll be
> a hub for developer learning, connection and connections.
>
> Stormy
>
>
>
> August 29, 2014 11:38 AM
> or platform."
Jeremie Patonnier
Sep 12, 2014, 4:53:28 AM9/12/14
to Justin Crawford, Stephanie Hobson, mdn-drivers, Janet Swisher, Stormy Peters
Hi :)
I made a few extra suggestion in the etherpad to enlarge our audience. I
think we focus to much on web developers and we also need to make sure the
general audience is able to find useful information and help regarding web
technologies on MDN
my 2ct
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>
I made a few extra suggestion in the etherpad to enlarge our audience. I
think we focus to much on web developers and we also need to make sure the
general audience is able to find useful information and help regarding web
technologies on MDN
my 2ct
> _______________________________________________
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
>
--
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
>
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>
Luke Crouch
Sep 15, 2014, 1:44:51 PM9/15/14
to Jeremie Patonnier, Justin Crawford, Stephanie Hobson, mdn-drivers, Janet Swisher, Stormy Peters
If MDN's target is "general audience" or "everybody", how is it
different from Webmaker?
-L
Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
A: http://five.sentenc.es
different from Webmaker?
-L
A: http://five.sentenc.es
Stormy Peters
Sep 15, 2014, 1:48:35 PM9/15/14
to Luke Crouch, Justin Crawford, Stephanie Hobson, Jeremie Patonnier, Janet Swisher, mdn-drivers
I thought our audience was web developers. People who are already web
developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people transition from
places like Webmaker to MDN.
developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people transition from
places like Webmaker to MDN.
Ali Spivak
Sep 15, 2014, 1:56:13 PM9/15/14
to Stormy Peters, Jeremie Patonnier, Janet Swisher, Stephanie Hobson, mdn-drivers, Luke Crouch, Justin Crawford
Stormy's understanding is mine, as well.
ali spivak
Manager, MDN Content & Community
408-859-8260
asp...@mozilla.com
ali spivak
Manager, MDN Content & Community
408-859-8260
asp...@mozilla.com
Jeremie Patonnier
Sep 16, 2014, 9:37:29 AM9/16/14
to Ali Spivak, Janet Swisher, Stephanie Hobson, mdn-drivers, Luke Crouch, Stormy Peters, Justin Crawford
Hi :)
Basically by "everyone", I mean everyone interested in technological points
regarding the web, which basically is what Stormy is pointing: Web
developers and people who want to transition to become web developers,
including armature web developer that are not doing this for a living.
To luke; If MDN target a real larger audience than web dev and people who
want to be web dev there is anyway some serious difference with webmaker:
1. MDN is primarily a knowledge base for self teaching where webmaker is
a hub of teachers who help with mentored learning.
2. MDN area of interest is web technologies where webmaker area of
interest is the usage of the web (to use it or to hack it)
To be honest I think that, in a distant future, it would be possible to
merge MDN with webmaker. Currently we are only building bridges between
those two project but if Mozilla (at large) has a real will to build a
super place to learn and teach the web, I see no reason that prevent to
create a super project which would be a fusion of those two (but again, in
a very distant future as we have many thing to accommodate before being
able to moving that way).
Basically by "everyone", I mean everyone interested in technological points
regarding the web, which basically is what Stormy is pointing: Web
developers and people who want to transition to become web developers,
including armature web developer that are not doing this for a living.
To luke; If MDN target a real larger audience than web dev and people who
want to be web dev there is anyway some serious difference with webmaker:
1. MDN is primarily a knowledge base for self teaching where webmaker is
a hub of teachers who help with mentored learning.
2. MDN area of interest is web technologies where webmaker area of
interest is the usage of the web (to use it or to hack it)
To be honest I think that, in a distant future, it would be possible to
merge MDN with webmaker. Currently we are only building bridges between
those two project but if Mozilla (at large) has a real will to build a
super place to learn and teach the web, I see no reason that prevent to
create a super project which would be a fusion of those two (but again, in
a very distant future as we have many thing to accommodate before being
able to moving that way).
Justin Crawford
Sep 16, 2014, 12:23:06 PM9/16/14
to Jeremie Patonnier, Janet Swisher, Stephanie Hobson, mdn-drivers, Ali Spivak, Luke Crouch, Stormy Peters
> MDN is primarily a knowledge base for self teaching
The above is a snapshot of MDN's current state. It could also be a
vision for MDN's future, though most of the submissions so far have a
broader scope.
> I think we focus to much on web developers
I don't think MDN will ever deny someone service or membership (or
whatever) if they do not possess some kind of developer credential.
We're not checking papers at the door. But we do call ourselves a
Developer Network. We're specifically addressing people who develop
software.
I am thrilled by all the input this question has received. Next week,
the developer relations leads have an opportunity to present some of our
ideas for the future of MDN to Chris Beard, CEO of Mozilla. If you have
been wanting to contribute to the conversation about MDN's vision,
please contribute this week!
Personally, I would love to hear more ideas about the unique value
proposition these visions for MDN offer. What sets your vision of MDN
apart? If that future MDN was a product on a store shelf that cost as
much as the other similar products on the shelf, why would someone
choose MDN?
Justin
> Jeremie Patonnier <mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com>
> September 16, 2014 7:37 AM
> Hi :)
>
> Basically by "everyone", I mean everyone interested in technological
> points regarding the web, which basically is what Stormy is pointing:
> Web developers and people who want to transition to become web
> developers, including armature web developer that are not doing this
> for a living.
>
> To luke; If MDN target a real larger audience than web dev and people
> who want to be web dev there is anyway some serious difference with
> webmaker:
>
> 1. MDN is primarily a knowledge base for self teaching where webmaker
> is a hub of teachers who help with mentored learning.
> 2. MDN area of interest is web technologies where webmaker area of
> interest is the usage of the web (to use it or to hack it)
>
> To be honest I think that, in a distant future, it would be possible
> to merge MDN with webmaker. Currently we are only building bridges
> between those two project but if Mozilla (at large) has a real will to
> build a super place to learn and teach the web, I see no reason that
> prevent to create a super project which would be a fusion of those two
> (but again, in a very distant future as we have many thing to
> accommodate before being able to moving that way).
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Basically by "everyone", I mean everyone interested in technological
> points regarding the web, which basically is what Stormy is pointing:
> Web developers and people who want to transition to become web
> developers, including armature web developer that are not doing this
> for a living.
>
> To luke; If MDN target a real larger audience than web dev and people
> who want to be web dev there is anyway some serious difference with
> webmaker:
>
> 1. MDN is primarily a knowledge base for self teaching where webmaker
> is a hub of teachers who help with mentored learning.
> 2. MDN area of interest is web technologies where webmaker area of
> interest is the usage of the web (to use it or to hack it)
>
> To be honest I think that, in a distant future, it would be possible
> to merge MDN with webmaker. Currently we are only building bridges
> between those two project but if Mozilla (at large) has a real will to
> build a super place to learn and teach the web, I see no reason that
> prevent to create a super project which would be a fusion of those two
> (but again, in a very distant future as we have many thing to
> accommodate before being able to moving that way).
>
>
>
>
> Jeremie
> .............................
> Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net <http://jeremie.patonnier.net/>
> Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>
> Ali Spivak <mailto:asp...@mozilla.com>
> September 15, 2014 11:56 AM
> Stormy's understanding is mine, as well.
>
>
>
> ali spivak
> Manager, MDN Content & Community
> 408-859-8260
> asp...@mozilla.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stormy Peters" <sto...@mozilla.com>
> To: "Luke Crouch" <lcr...@mozilla.com>
> Cc: "Justin Crawford" <hoos...@mozilla.com>, "Stephanie Hobson"
> <sho...@mozilla.com>, "Jeremie Patonnier"
> <jeremie....@gmail.com>, "Janet Swisher" <jswi...@mozilla.com>,
> "mdn-drivers" <mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:48:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MDN Product Vision
>
> I thought our audience was web developers. People who are already web
> developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people transition from
> places like Webmaker to MDN.
>
>
>
>
> ali spivak
> Manager, MDN Content & Community
> 408-859-8260
> asp...@mozilla.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stormy Peters" <sto...@mozilla.com>
> To: "Luke Crouch" <lcr...@mozilla.com>
> Cc: "Justin Crawford" <hoos...@mozilla.com>, "Stephanie Hobson"
> <sho...@mozilla.com>, "Jeremie Patonnier"
> <jeremie....@gmail.com>, "Janet Swisher" <jswi...@mozilla.com>,
> "mdn-drivers" <mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:48:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MDN Product Vision
>
> I thought our audience was web developers. People who are already web
> developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people transition from
> places like Webmaker to MDN.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
> Stormy Peters <mailto:sto...@mozilla.com>
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
> September 15, 2014 11:48 AM
> I thought our audience was web developers. People who are already web
> developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people transition
> from places like Webmaker to MDN.
>
>
> Luke Crouch <mailto:lcr...@mozilla.com>
> developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people transition
> from places like Webmaker to MDN.
>
>
> September 15, 2014 11:44 AM
> If MDN's target is "general audience" or "everybody", how is it
> different from Webmaker?
>
> -L
>
> Jeremie Patonnier <mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com>
> different from Webmaker?
>
> -L
>
> September 12, 2014 2:53 AM
> Hi :)
>
> I made a few extra suggestion in the etherpad to enlarge our audience.
> I think we focus to much on web developers and we also need to make
> sure the general audience is able to find useful information and help
> regarding web technologies on MDN
>
> my 2ct
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> I made a few extra suggestion in the etherpad to enlarge our audience.
> I think we focus to much on web developers and we also need to make
> sure the general audience is able to find useful information and help
> regarding web technologies on MDN
>
> my 2ct
>
>
>
>
> Jeremie
> .............................
> Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net <http://jeremie.patonnier.net/>
> Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>
Stephanie Hobson
Sep 16, 2014, 12:42:34 PM9/16/14
to Jeremie Patonnier, Ali Spivak, Justin Crawford, Janet Swisher, Luke Crouch, mdn-drivers, Stormy Peters
On 2014-09-16, 6:37, Jeremie Patonnier wrote:
>
> To be honest I think that, in a distant future, it would be possible
> to merge MDN with webmaker. Currently we are only building bridges
> between those two project but if Mozilla (at large) has a real will to
> build a super place to learn and teach the web, I see no reason that
> prevent to create a super project which would be a fusion of those two
> (but again, in a very distant future as we have many thing to
> accommodate before being able to moving that way).
provide interactive examples like W3Schools does :) It could be the
first bridge between the two projects :)
Stephanie.
[1] https://thimble.webmaker.org/en-US
> <mailto:asp...@mozilla.com>>:
>
> Stormy's understanding is mine, as well.
>
>
>
> ali spivak
> Manager, MDN Content & Community
> 408-859-8260 <tel:408-859-8260>
> Stormy's understanding is mine, as well.
>
>
>
> ali spivak
> Manager, MDN Content & Community
> asp...@mozilla.com <mailto:asp...@mozilla.com>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stormy Peters" <sto...@mozilla.com <mailto:sto...@mozilla.com>>
> To: "Luke Crouch" <lcr...@mozilla.com <mailto:lcr...@mozilla.com>>
> Cc: "Justin Crawford" <hoos...@mozilla.com
> <mailto:hoos...@mozilla.com>>, "Stephanie Hobson"
> <sho...@mozilla.com <mailto:sho...@mozilla.com>>, "Jeremie
> Patonnier" <jeremie....@gmail.com
> <mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com>>, "Janet Swisher"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stormy Peters" <sto...@mozilla.com <mailto:sto...@mozilla.com>>
> To: "Luke Crouch" <lcr...@mozilla.com <mailto:lcr...@mozilla.com>>
> Cc: "Justin Crawford" <hoos...@mozilla.com
> <mailto:hoos...@mozilla.com>>, "Stephanie Hobson"
> <sho...@mozilla.com <mailto:sho...@mozilla.com>>, "Jeremie
> Patonnier" <jeremie....@gmail.com
> <jswi...@mozilla.com <mailto:jswi...@mozilla.com>>,
> "mdn-drivers" <mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> <mailto:mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>>
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:48:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MDN Product Vision
>
> I thought our audience was web developers. People who are already web
> developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people
> transition from
> places like Webmaker to MDN.
>
> Subject: Re: MDN Product Vision
>
> I thought our audience was web developers. People who are already web
> developers. And that the Learn pages were to help people
> transition from
> places like Webmaker to MDN.
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Luke Crouch <lcr...@mozilla.com
> <mailto:lcr...@mozilla.com>> wrote:
>
> > If MDN's target is "general audience" or "everybody", how is it
> > different from Webmaker?
> >
> > -L
> >
>
> > If MDN's target is "general audience" or "everybody", how is it
> > different from Webmaker?
> >
> > -L
> >
> > On 9/12/14 3:53 AM, Jeremie Patonnier wrote:
> > > Hi :)
> > >
> > > I made a few extra suggestion in the etherpad to enlarge our
> audience. I
> > > think we focus to much on web developers and we also need to
> make sure
> > the
> > > general audience is able to find useful information and help
> regarding
> > web
> > > technologies on MDN
> > >
> > > my 2ct
> > >
> > >
> > > I made a few extra suggestion in the etherpad to enlarge our
> audience. I
> > > think we focus to much on web developers and we also need to
> make sure
> > the
> > > general audience is able to find useful information and help
> regarding
> > web
> > > technologies on MDN
> > >
> > > my 2ct
> > >
> > > 2014-09-10 20:09 GMT+02:00 Justin Crawford
> <hoos...@mozilla.com <mailto:hoos...@mozilla.com>>:
> > >
> > >> > Maybe this is something we should be discussing in December
> when
> > we're all
> > >>> >> together? (except that might exclude some people who
> can't travel,
> > and that
> > >>> >> would be sad). But I don't think we have much momentum on
> the email
> > list
> > >>> >> and this is an important discussion.
> > >>> >>
> > >> > I think what you are interpreting as a lack of momentum is
> actually a
> > lack
> > >> > of oxygen. A significant reorganization came close on the
> heels of
> > this
> > >> > thread's initial email, and many people are talking about
> it in many
> > >> > places, which has made this thread a little quiet.
> > >> >
> > >> > I don't think we should wait until December to continue the
> > >> > Maybe this is something we should be discussing in December
> when
> > we're all
> > >>> >> together? (except that might exclude some people who
> can't travel,
> > and that
> > >>> >> would be sad). But I don't think we have much momentum on
> the email
> > list
> > >>> >> and this is an important discussion.
> > >>> >>
> > >> > I think what you are interpreting as a lack of momentum is
> actually a
> > lack
> > >> > of oxygen. A significant reorganization came close on the
> heels of
> > this
> > >> > thread's initial email, and many people are talking about
> it in many
> > >> > places, which has made this thread a little quiet.
> > >> >
> > conversation
> > >> > --
> > >> > Justin Crawford
> > >> > Product Manager, Developer Relations | Mozilla
> > >> > hoos...@mozilla.com <mailto:hoos...@mozilla.com>
> > >> > Justin Crawford
> > >> > Product Manager, Developer Relations | Mozilla
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Mdn-drivers mailing list
> > >> > Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> <mailto:Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>
> > >> > Mdn-drivers mailing list
> > >> > Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> > >> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Jeremie ............................. Web :
> > > http://jeremie.patonnier.net Twitter : @JeremiePat
> > > <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>
> > > _______________________________________________ Mdn-drivers
> mailing list
> > > Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> <mailto:Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>
> mailing list
> > > Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> > A: http://five.sentenc.es
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> > A: http://five.sentenc.es
> >
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
Jean-Yves Perrier
Sep 17, 2014, 1:30:45 AM9/17/14
to Stephanie Hobson, Jeremie Patonnier, Ali Spivak, Justin Crawford, Luke Crouch, Stormy Peters, Janet Swisher, mdn-drivers
On 16/09/2014 18:42, Stephanie Hobson wrote:
>
> On 2014-09-16, 6:37, Jeremie Patonnier wrote:
>>
>> To be honest I think that, in a distant future, it would be possible
>> to merge MDN with webmaker. Currently we are only building bridges
>> between those two project but if Mozilla (at large) has a real will
>> to build a super place to learn and teach the web, I see no reason
>> that prevent to create a super project which would be a fusion of
>> those two (but again, in a very distant future as we have many thing
>> to accommodate before being able to moving that way).
>
> There's a clear place for WebMaker's Thimble[1] already if we want to
> provide interactive examples like W3Schools does :) It could be the
> first bridge between the two projects :)
>
Yep, there were already discussion about this in February. Thimble
>
> On 2014-09-16, 6:37, Jeremie Patonnier wrote:
>>
>> To be honest I think that, in a distant future, it would be possible
>> to merge MDN with webmaker. Currently we are only building bridges
>> between those two project but if Mozilla (at large) has a real will
>> to build a super place to learn and teach the web, I see no reason
>> that prevent to create a super project which would be a fusion of
>> those two (but again, in a very distant future as we have many thing
>> to accommodate before being able to moving that way).
>
> There's a clear place for WebMaker's Thimble[1] already if we want to
> provide interactive examples like W3Schools does :) It could be the
> first bridge between the two projects :)
>
looked as a good like a very good candidate.
--
"Prenez soin des minutes, les heures prendront soin d'elles-m�mes."
P.D. Stanhope (4e baron de Chesterfield, 1694-1773)
Jeremie Patonnier
Sep 17, 2014, 5:43:47 AM9/17/14
to Stephanie Hobson, Janet Swisher, mdn-drivers, Ali Spivak, Luke Crouch, Stormy Peters, Justin Crawford
Hi Stephanie
2014-09-16 18:42 GMT+02:00 Stephanie Hobson <sho...@mozilla.com>:
>
> There's a clear place for WebMaker's Thimble already if we want to provide
Area which will provide some "Text book" content (self teaching articles)
to WebMaker. The next step will be to start using Thimble to create some
active learning material (exercices) to be associated with our article
(should be kicked off at MozFest). So that's the plan.
Now, I spend quite some time digging into Thimble and to be honest, as a
product it's very promising but still very young. If we want to seriously
use it on MDN we'll need to put some serious dev effort in it and I'm not
sure we are able to afford such an R&D effort right now (AFAIK, Kuma remain
our main priority).
2014-09-16 18:42 GMT+02:00 Stephanie Hobson <sho...@mozilla.com>:
>
> There's a clear place for WebMaker's Thimble already if we want to provide
> interactive examples like W3Schools does :) It could be the first bridge
> between the two projects :)
>
Actually, the first bridge between MDN and WebMaker will be the Learning
> between the two projects :)
>
Area which will provide some "Text book" content (self teaching articles)
to WebMaker. The next step will be to start using Thimble to create some
active learning material (exercices) to be associated with our article
(should be kicked off at MozFest). So that's the plan.
Now, I spend quite some time digging into Thimble and to be honest, as a
product it's very promising but still very young. If we want to seriously
use it on MDN we'll need to put some serious dev effort in it and I'm not
sure we are able to afford such an R&D effort right now (AFAIK, Kuma remain
our main priority).
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