[Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For Android"?

[Stephanie Hobson]

Hi All,

Another compatibility tables UI design question, but I'm separating them to
help keep track of the discussions :)



*Should we change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox for Android"? *
We have the opportunity to re-name some of our browsers when we do the data
import. I'd like to change Firefox Mobile to Firefox for Android.

For: With FirefoxOS and Firefox for iOS floating around "Mobile" is
increasingly ambiguous. This will match our naming convention for "Chrome
for Android".

Against: A change might confuse our users. This opens the door to "Opera
for DS, IE for XBox, Safari for iPad" and maybe we need a better way to
differentiate the different versions.

Recommendation: Change it to "Firefox for Android"

Thanks,
Stephanie.

[Chris Mills]

> Recommendation: Change it to "Firefox for Android”

+1

I think this makes a lot of sense, and Firefox for Android is less ambiguous than Firefox for Mobile, for reasons stated above.

I don’t think it opens the floodgates to listing every browser in existence. After listing the major browsers and mozilla browsers, I don’t think we have any obligation to list every browser. Anyone can add more rows if they want.

I guess one thought is local popular browsers that we don’t know so much about. Do Russian contributors add data for Yandex browser, for example or Sougou in China, etc.?

[Jean-Yves Perrier]

Hi!

I'm cc-ing Karen, Sr Manager for Firefox Mobile, her insight will be
very valuable I guess :-)

>From the last discussion we had in December, my educated guess is that
she will agree with you Stephanie.

When we designed these tables, the situation wasn't the same, Firefox
for Android wasn't yet using the native UI…

Thanks
--
Jean-Yves

On 21/01/2015 23:37, Stephanie Hobson wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Another compatibility tables UI design question, but I'm separating them to
> help keep track of the discussions :)
>
>
>
> *Should we change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox for Android"? *
> We have the opportunity to re-name some of our browsers when we do the data
> import. I'd like to change Firefox Mobile to Firefox for Android.
>
> For: With FirefoxOS and Firefox for iOS floating around "Mobile" is
> increasingly ambiguous. This will match our naming convention for "Chrome
> for Android".
>
> Against: A change might confuse our users. This opens the door to "Opera
> for DS, IE for XBox, Safari for iPad" and maybe we need a better way to
> differentiate the different versions.
>
> Recommendation: Change it to "Firefox for Android"
>

> Thanks,
> Stephanie.
> _______________________________________________
> Mdn-drivers mailing list
> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
>


--
Jean-Yves Perrier
Senior Technical Writer / Mozilla Developer Network

[Jeremie Patonnier]

Hi!

+1 for renaming :)

Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>

[Karen Rudnitski]

Could I have a link to the table to see how it’s laid out?



Thanks!



*From:* Jeremie Patonnier [mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 22 January 2015 09:44
*To:* Jean-Yves Perrier
*Cc:* mdn-drivers; krudn...@mozilla.com >> Karen Rudnitski
*Subject:* Re: [Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For
Android"?

[Jean-Yves Perrier]

Sure!

The current tables are visible there:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/order#Browser_compatibility

Click on the "mobile" tab. They are being redesigned.

--
Jean-Yves

On 22/01/2015 10:16, Karen Rudnitski wrote:
>
> Could I have a link to the table to see how it’s laid out?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> *From:*Jeremie Patonnier [mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com
> <mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* 22 January 2015 09:44
> *To:* Jean-Yves Perrier
> *Cc:* mdn-drivers; krudn...@mozilla.com

> <mailto:krudn...@mozilla.com> >> Karen Rudnitski

> *Subject:* Re: [Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For
> Android"?
>
>
>
> Hi!
>
>
>
> +1 for renaming :)
>
>
>
> 2015-01-22 9:27 GMT+01:00 Jean-Yves Perrier <jype...@gmail.com

> <mailto:jype...@gmail.com>>:

> > Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>

> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
> >
>
> --
> Jean-Yves Perrier
> Senior Technical Writer / Mozilla Developer Network
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mdn-drivers mailing list

> Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org>

> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jeremie
> .............................

> Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net <http://jeremie.patonnier.net/>
> Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>

[Karen Rudnitski]

One more question then – will the info displayed in the tables change? Ie
any changes on the books with how the desktop columns are shown?



*From:* Jean-Yves Perrier [mailto:jype...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 22 January 2015 10:19
*To:* Karen Rudnitski; Jeremie Patonnier
*Cc:* mdn-drivers

*Subject:* Re: [Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For
Android"?

Sure!

The current tables are visible there:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/order#Browser_compatibility

Click on the "mobile" tab. They are being redesigned.

--
Jean-Yves

On 22/01/2015 10:16, Karen Rudnitski wrote:

Could I have a link to the table to see how it’s laid out?



Thanks!

*From:* Jeremie Patonnier [mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com]

*Sent:* 22 January 2015 09:44
*To:* Jean-Yves Perrier

*Cc:* mdn-drivers; krudn...@mozilla.com >> Karen Rudnitski

*Subject:* Re: [Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For
Android"?



Hi!



+1 for renaming :)

> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers
>

--
Jean-Yves Perrier
Senior Technical Writer / Mozilla Developer Network


_______________________________________________
Mdn-drivers mailing list
Mdn-d...@lists.mozilla.org

https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mdn-drivers





--

Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net

[Karen Rudnitski]

Further context to my question below – I’ll run you through my thought
process and you can see why I’m asking the question.



· We don’t call out which platform Firefox desktop runs on in their
table, so it’s a little counter-intuitive to call out the platform upon
which the Firefox mobile browser runs on

· It’s less ambiguous if the title is ‘Mobile Browser’, although
doesn’t 100% wipe that ambiguity since there **is** a mobile browser (of
sorts) on Fx OS, even though they’re moving towards the whole OS as a
‘browser’ (Haida)

· It would be even LESS ambiguous to have a table header for Firefox
OS alongside Firefox Desktop and Firefox Mobile Browser (if that’s how
we’re going to refer to them)

· You’ll see I designated each as ‘Firefox’ – makes the table names
longer, but maybe this helps solve the ambiguity?



I am hesitant to agree to ‘Firefox for Android’ for the following reasons:

· We will be launching Firefox for iOS in 2015, so we’d be adding
this other long title to the table

o [BUT this has the added benefit of distinguishing any differences in
the mobile browser products -> can you think of what differences there
would be? I’m not an expert in MDN by any means so seeking clarity. Firefox
for iOS will run on WebKit and not use Gecko, at least initially, so I do
expect some differences.]

· We don’t refer to Desktop as ‘Firefox for Desktop Windows’ and we
won’t ever. So in terms of naming consistency, it feels weird – but I do
also understand the rationale. We’re not really comparing apples to apples
in this scenario, and I understand that.



Since I don’t understand MDN at this point but also want to create less
ambiguity but also build in some future-proofing, what about the following
proposal given the assumptions listed here:

· Title of the table: “Firefox Browser compatibility” (vs ‘Browser
compatibility).

o [Assumes we **aren’t** including Firefox OS, but if we ARE, the title
could be ‘Firefox compatibility’ to accommodate.]

o [This therefore clearly tells us we’re talking about Firefox products
to avoid the need to re-state this in the table tab titles.]

· Table tab titles: “Desktop Browser”, “Mobile Browser”

o [This allows us to have OS if you so desire, else it just makes it
clear we’re talking about the mobile browser.]

· If there are differences in the Android browser and iOS browser
from your documentation standpoint (which, as I suspect, there are), the
options are:

o Tweak the column names within the Mobile Browser table:

§ ‘Firefox – Android’, ‘Firefox – iOS’, ‘Chrome’, ‘IE’ etc

o Create two different tables: “Mobile Browser – Android”, “Mobile
Browser – iOS”



Phew. Hopefully this lets you see inside my head a bit. We are ourselves
employing a Firefox Mobile terminology and making the Android vs iOS
distinction. I also understand the ambiguity ‘Firefox Mobile’ creates when
comparing to Firefox OS, however to be honest, I haven’t actually come
across a case where anyone **has** made an error. It becomes fairly obvious
on the context and the info provided what we’re referring to, and maybe a
line of text would help in any intro to the information you’re providing.



Happy to discuss further. I’m trying to keep consistency across the
organization with how we refer to our products, and also to not make
‘Firefox for Android’ a special case compared to how we name our Desktop
offering. We’ve become very comfortable assuming Deskop = Firefox desktop
browser (for obvious reasons) but that causes its own brand headaches at
times, so I like to try and keep things consistent as possible with how we
refer to our Firefox products.



Karen



*From:* Karen Rudnitski [mailto:krudn...@mozilla.com]
*Sent:* 22 January 2015 10:47
*To:* 'Jean-Yves Perrier'; 'Jeremie Patonnier'
*Cc:* 'mdn-drivers'
*Subject:* RE: [Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For
Android"?

One more question then – will the info displayed in the tables change? Ie
any changes on the books with how the desktop columns are shown?

*From:* Jean-Yves Perrier [mailto:jype...@gmail.com <jype...@gmail.com>]

[Sebastian Zartner]

On 22 January 2015 at 13:30, Karen Rudnitski <krudn...@mozilla.com>
wrote:

> ...

> o [BUT this has the added benefit of distinguishing any differences in
> the mobile browser products -> can you think of what differences there
> would be? I’m not an expert in MDN by any means so seeking clarity. Firefox
> for iOS will run on WebKit and not use Gecko, at least initially, so I do
> expect some differences.]

> ...
>

That surely makes a huge difference in compatibility between Firefox for
Android and Firefox for iOS as the browser engine determines what is
supported in regard of HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

So my vote would be to rename the column to 'Firefox for Android'.

If Firefox for iOS will be released before the rework of bug 1006017
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1006017> is finished and be
based on WebKit, a new column 'Firefox for iOS' should be added.

Sebastian

[Karen Rudnitski]

Renaming to ‘Firefox for Android’ but not renaming desktop to ‘Firefox for
Desktop’ still doesn’t solve the problem for brand consistency, which is
equally important in any product-facing documentation.



Therefore either rename desktop to reflect Firefox desktop, or rename
mobile to Mobile browser – Android.



*From:* Sebastian Zartner [mailto:sebastia...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 22 January 2015 13:33
*To:* Karen Rudnitski
*Cc:* Jean-Yves Perrier; Jeremie Patonnier; mdn-drivers

*Subject:* Re: [Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For
Android"?

[Biraj Karmakar]

+1 for renaming :)

Biraj Karmakar

Mozilla Reps from India
from Android

[Jeremie Patonnier]

Hi Karen :)

A few extra though as a web developer

Regarding compatibility data, it necessary to be very clear on the nature
of the product we are talking about.

Technically speaking, Firefox Desktop, Firefox for Android, Firefox for
iOS, Firefox OS Browser, and Firefox OS itself are all very different and
it's important to clearly spot those differences to make sure web
developers are able to better build web content for those various targets.

Yes, in a general context, we should call Firefox : "Firefox Desktop". When
the context is implicite, we never give extra name Firefox. For example, if
we build a table of compatibility exclusively for Android browsers, we will
call Firefox without the "for Android" part. It is pointless because the
context is obvious.

When we are going to a Firefox Desktop vs Firefox Mobile naming, we are in
2 different context.

In the Desktop world, there is no difference in terme of functionality
between the Window, Mac and Linux platform, therefor we do not need to make
such a difference. Any small different behavior is only about performance
and/or stability and we only relay on footnote if it really makes a
difference for web developer (most of the time, it doesn't).

In the Mobile world, there is more fuzziness. Firefox for Android, Firefox
for iOS and Firefox OS Browser do not support the same range of
functionalities, technically speaking they are NOT the same product at all.
In many cases there are some huge differences (and I'm not speaking about
Firefox OS in itself which is also a totally different beast). Because of
that, web developers are seeking for those differences in order to be able
to do their job. For that reason, we cannot allow to simply have some
"Firefox Mobile" entry on MDN. There are too many differences to handle
them through simple footnotes.

So yes, In terme of branding, it's all about Firefox. But in terme of
technic there are many differences that we must document on MDN and doing
this under a unique branding will be more damaging than helping. That's why
we need, in some cases, to be a bit more specific than just talking about
Firefox.

my 2ct
Jeremie

[Karen Rudnitski]

Yes, I understand all of those points – that’s why I was going down two
paths, while still trying to be consistent with product naming.



Although I understand the reasoning for being implicit when seemingly
obvious, those implicits get discussed and coded, therefore perpetuating
inconsistent naming.



That’s why I went with two options that would satisfy the need to show the
differences between the various products whilst maintaining branding
consistency.



I don’t think it’s a tough ask that if it’s settled to have ‘Firefox for
Android’ and – later in 2015 – ‘Firefox for iOS’, that we simply rename
desktop to ‘Firefox Desktop’.



(FWIW, I’m perfectly fine referring to the two product names themselves for
the mobile offerings – where I’m arguing is to ensure consistency across
all of the name products listed in the table).



Note that when we were **this close** to releasing the Metro browser for
Windows touch devices, the official product name would have been ‘Firefox
for Windows 8 Touch’ (a mouthful, I know) to maintain some consistency.
That’s an instance where we would have had to make some differences and
distinctions within the Desktop grouping. Given we don’t have that
situation right now, I think it’s still fair enough to simply state
‘Firefox Desktop’.



So if you were to bring in OS, you can then add in ‘Firefox OS’ quite
easily without any ambiguity.



Karen

*From:* Jeremie Patonnier [mailto:jeremie....@gmail.com]

*Sent:* 22 January 2015 15:13
*To:* Karen Rudnitski
*Cc:* Sebastian Zartner; Jean-Yves Perrier; mdn-drivers

[William Maggs]

No way we should EVER call it Firefox for Desktop--my kids don't even know
what one of those is.

Firefox Mobile for Android?

and: Firefox Mobile for iOS?

It's a branding excercise mostly.



On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Karen Rudnitski <krudn...@mozilla.com>
wrote:

[Stephanie Hobson]

If it helps please consider:
- don't worry if the title is too long for the existing tables. I would
like to make sure we have the correct information in the API before
worrying about how to display it ;)
- Our audience for this data is developers, understanding the information
is more important than branding (but they're not un-related)

I think the fact that we treat "Firefox" as the cannonical Firefox and
"Firefox Mobile" as a side project is a fragment of how the compat tables
have developed over time. When the iPhone was launched we could say
"Firefox, Internet Explorer, Safari" and know what we meant - so we had to
differentiate the mobile from those. (Though, that consistency was hard
fought, remember the days of IE for Mac? *shudder*)

I don't think mobile should be an afterthought anymore, and that means we
can't assume that Desktop is canonical when we say "Firefox" anymore. I'd
be in favour of appending some kind of indication of the difference to all
of the browser names.

I don't think it has to be a super technical indication, devs just need to
understand it, "Desktop" is sufficient. This would be a change for us to
make to Chrome, Internet Explorer, etc. as well.

We can always display the data differently from how we store it.

API: Firefox for Desktop, Firefox for Android, Firefox for iOS, FirefoxOS,
Chrome for Desktop, Chrome for Android.
Desktop compatibility table: Firefox, Chrome.
Mobile compatibility table: Firefox for Android, Firefox for iOS,
FirefoxOS, Chrome for Android.
Firefox compatibility table: Desktop, Android, iOS, OS.

Thanks for jumping into the discussion Karen :)

Stephanie.

[Jeremie Patonnier]

2015-01-22 21:53 GMT+01:00 Stephanie Hobson <sho...@mozilla.com>:

> We can always display the data differently from how we store it.
>

+∞

[Karen Rudnitski]

Thanks for taking the time to consider my points, Stephanie – I think what
you outlined below makes great sense in terms of consistency with product
names and providing more clarity on what we’re referring to.



Karen



*From:* Stephanie Hobson [mailto:sho...@mozilla.com]
*Sent:* 22 January 2015 20:54
*To:* mdn-drivers
*Cc:* Karen Rudnitski; Jean-Yves Perrier; Jeremie Patonnier; Sebastian
Zartner

*Subject:* Re: [Compat-data] Change "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox For
Android"?

If it helps please consider:
- don't worry if the title is too long for the existing tables. I would
like to make sure we have the correct information in the API before
worrying about how to display it ;)

- Our audience for this data is developers, understanding the information
is more important than branding (but they're not un-related)



I think the fact that we treat "Firefox" as the cannonical Firefox and
"Firefox Mobile" as a side project is a fragment of how the compat tables
have developed over time. When the iPhone was launched we could say
"Firefox, Internet Explorer, Safari" and know what we meant - so we had to
differentiate the mobile from those. (Though, that consistency was hard
fought, remember the days of IE for Mac? *shudder*)

I don't think mobile should be an afterthought anymore, and that means we
can't assume that Desktop is canonical when we say "Firefox" anymore. I'd
be in favour of appending some kind of indication of the difference to all
of the browser names.

I don't think it has to be a super technical indication, devs just need to
understand it, "Desktop" is sufficient. This would be a change for us to
make to Chrome, Internet Explorer, etc. as well.

We can always display the data differently from how we store it.

> --
>
> Jeremie
> .............................
> Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
> Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>

[Stephanie Hobson]

I'm going to interpret the silence on this thread as an okay to move
forward with appending "for Desktop" to all our desktop versions and to
switch from "Firefox Mobile" to "Firefox for Android". But, since there
was silence, I wanted to put out one last call for feedback before I
announce the decision.

Thanks,
Stephanie.

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:27 AM, Karen Rudnitski <krudn...@mozilla.com>

[Jean-Yves Perrier]

I'm personally ok with this "Firefox for Desktop", "Firefox (for Desktop)".

Not that's my opinion is decisive on this one though :-) :-)

[Jeremie Patonnier]

+1 for Firefox Desktop

I'm less convinced about Firefox Mobile as it's way to vague and fuzzy in a
web dev point of view.

Same problem as for Chrome Mobile, would it be Chrome for Android or Chrome
for iOS (two very different things as for Firefox)

[Justin Crawford]

I agree with the changes you suggest, Stephanie. Thanks for driving this
conversation.

Justin Crawford
Product Manager, MDN
hoos...@mozilla.com

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Stephanie Hobson <sho...@mozilla.com>

[Jeremie Patonnier]

An aside point: When we designed the API, we purposely avoid the OS to be a
formal data. So in the data schema Firefox Desktop, Firefox for Android,
Firefox for iOS, Firefox for Firefox OS and Firefox OS itself are all
different user agents that need to be diferentiate.

That said, how we are displaying the data for each of them is a 100%
different topic and can be adjust for each display context.

2015-01-27 18:56 GMT+01:00 Jeremie Patonnier <jeremie....@gmail.com>:

> +1 for Firefox Desktop
>
> I'm less convinced about Firefox Mobile as it's way to vague and fuzzy in
> a web dev point of view.
>
> Same problem as for Chrome Mobile, would it be Chrome for Android or
> Chrome for iOS (two very different things as for Firefox)
>
> 2015-01-27 18:51 GMT+01:00 Jean-Yves Perrier <jype...@gmail.com>:
>
>> I'm personally ok with this "Firefox for Desktop", "Firefox (for
>> Desktop)".
>>
>> Not that's my opinion is decisive on this one though :-) :-)
>>

>> --
>> Jean-Yves Perrier
>> Senior Technical Writer / Mozilla Developer Network
>>