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Engaging the public
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Majken Connor
Apr 15, 2014, 6:05:35 PM4/15/14
to gover...@lists.mozilla.org
First, of any new members of the list are reading this, this is not at all
meant as a suggestion that you're not welcome here.
The governance list is the best place we have for discussing the current
issues, but it's really not a good place to engage the public on individual
issues. SUMO isn't the right place either, even though at first glance it
might seem like it (when thinking of the feedback that's starting to come
in with Australis). We also have Input, but that won't satisfy people
looking to have a conversation.
It has been both challenging and rewarding engaging with, and seeing others
engage with the public on our issues and how we work. We should have a
mechanism for this that:
1. Is easy for the public to use
2. Allows existing communication channels to maintain their current
function (having to deal with 100 threads about our CEO issues shifts the
governance list's effectiveness)
3. Allows us to create deditcated spaces to send people when we have "hot
button" issues
4. Allows Mozillians and core contributors to engage with the public
When this issue hit, and before we sent people here, it occurred to me that
what we really needed was some sort of "disposable" forum, so that we had a
clear place to engage with people, but so that it was contained to an
appropriate place.
It does occur to me that Discourse would be a very good tool for this,
though I'd recommend a stand-alone instance from one we might use for
team/community communications. An area of SUMO might work as well, though
it would need to be a separate forum that doesn't rely on the SUMO
contributors to moderate and monitor.
Maybe PR/Engagement would want their own SUMO instance? They could use the
knowledge base function to host and localize PR statements and news
releases, as well as archives and localizations of important blog posts
(like the resignation FAQ) and the manifesto.
meant as a suggestion that you're not welcome here.
The governance list is the best place we have for discussing the current
issues, but it's really not a good place to engage the public on individual
issues. SUMO isn't the right place either, even though at first glance it
might seem like it (when thinking of the feedback that's starting to come
in with Australis). We also have Input, but that won't satisfy people
looking to have a conversation.
It has been both challenging and rewarding engaging with, and seeing others
engage with the public on our issues and how we work. We should have a
mechanism for this that:
1. Is easy for the public to use
2. Allows existing communication channels to maintain their current
function (having to deal with 100 threads about our CEO issues shifts the
governance list's effectiveness)
3. Allows us to create deditcated spaces to send people when we have "hot
button" issues
4. Allows Mozillians and core contributors to engage with the public
When this issue hit, and before we sent people here, it occurred to me that
what we really needed was some sort of "disposable" forum, so that we had a
clear place to engage with people, but so that it was contained to an
appropriate place.
It does occur to me that Discourse would be a very good tool for this,
though I'd recommend a stand-alone instance from one we might use for
team/community communications. An area of SUMO might work as well, though
it would need to be a separate forum that doesn't rely on the SUMO
contributors to moderate and monitor.
Maybe PR/Engagement would want their own SUMO instance? They could use the
knowledge base function to host and localize PR statements and news
releases, as well as archives and localizations of important blog posts
(like the resignation FAQ) and the manifesto.
jsabash
Apr 15, 2014, 7:56:32 PM4/15/14
to gover...@lists.mozilla.org
On 4/15/2014 6:05 PM, Majken Connor wrote:
> 1. Is easy for the public to use
Governance seemed very easy to use for a lot of folks.
> 1. Is easy for the public to use
I understand that it expanded it's original purpose.
But Mozilla is open right.
> 2. Allows existing communication channels to maintain their current
> function (having to deal with 100 threads about our CEO issues shifts the
> governance list's effectiveness)
To most, I think it is a mysterious process, so random comments should
> function (having to deal with 100 threads about our CEO issues shifts the
> governance list's effectiveness)
not be dismissed out of hand.
> 3. Allows us to create deditcated spaces to send people when we have "hot
> button" issues
As long as dissent doesn't amount to throwing them into the bitbucket
> button" issues
> 4. Allows Mozillians and core contributors to engage with the public
A lot of energy would be required for this.
Given the general response to votes on Bugzilla,
how would this be different
The general consensus in the user community is that Meritocracy rules
and the everyday user is left with 'Take it or leave it'
This is not a personal complaint....Generally, I'll take it.
But when i get on a train, I generally want to be sure where it is going.
I rode that train in the 70's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvsAqkOhI48&feature=player_detailpage
I know this is not social media, but sometimes I need a song to help my
expressions.
So I'll take advantage of it while posting is loose here.
--
*JoeS*
Nicholas Nethercote
Apr 15, 2014, 9:49:36 PM4/15/14
to Majken Connor, gover...@lists.mozilla.org
I think implementing a new system to address the recent situation is a
waste of time and effort. Issues like this one are incredibly rare.
And if you don't want to read the critical emails to governance it
doesn't take long to skim over them.
Nick
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Majken Connor <maj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, of any new members of the list are reading this, this is not at all
> meant as a suggestion that you're not welcome here.
>
> The governance list is the best place we have for discussing the current
> issues, but it's really not a good place to engage the public on individual
> issues. SUMO isn't the right place either, even though at first glance it
> might seem like it (when thinking of the feedback that's starting to come
> in with Australis). We also have Input, but that won't satisfy people
> looking to have a conversation.
>
> It has been both challenging and rewarding engaging with, and seeing others
> engage with the public on our issues and how we work. We should have a
> mechanism for this that:
>
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
waste of time and effort. Issues like this one are incredibly rare.
And if you don't want to read the critical emails to governance it
doesn't take long to skim over them.
Nick
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Majken Connor <maj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, of any new members of the list are reading this, this is not at all
> meant as a suggestion that you're not welcome here.
>
> The governance list is the best place we have for discussing the current
> issues, but it's really not a good place to engage the public on individual
> issues. SUMO isn't the right place either, even though at first glance it
> might seem like it (when thinking of the feedback that's starting to come
> in with Australis). We also have Input, but that won't satisfy people
> looking to have a conversation.
>
> It has been both challenging and rewarding engaging with, and seeing others
> engage with the public on our issues and how we work. We should have a
> mechanism for this that:
>
> 1. Is easy for the public to use
> 2. Allows existing communication channels to maintain their current
> function (having to deal with 100 threads about our CEO issues shifts the
> governance list's effectiveness)
> function (having to deal with 100 threads about our CEO issues shifts the
> governance list's effectiveness)
> 3. Allows us to create deditcated spaces to send people when we have "hot
> button" issues
> button" issues
> 4. Allows Mozillians and core contributors to engage with the public
>
>
> When this issue hit, and before we sent people here, it occurred to me that
> what we really needed was some sort of "disposable" forum, so that we had a
> clear place to engage with people, but so that it was contained to an
> appropriate place.
>
> It does occur to me that Discourse would be a very good tool for this,
> though I'd recommend a stand-alone instance from one we might use for
> team/community communications. An area of SUMO might work as well, though
> it would need to be a separate forum that doesn't rely on the SUMO
> contributors to moderate and monitor.
>
> Maybe PR/Engagement would want their own SUMO instance? They could use the
> knowledge base function to host and localize PR statements and news
> releases, as well as archives and localizations of important blog posts
> (like the resignation FAQ) and the manifesto.
> _______________________________________________
> what we really needed was some sort of "disposable" forum, so that we had a
> clear place to engage with people, but so that it was contained to an
> appropriate place.
>
> It does occur to me that Discourse would be a very good tool for this,
> though I'd recommend a stand-alone instance from one we might use for
> team/community communications. An area of SUMO might work as well, though
> it would need to be a separate forum that doesn't rely on the SUMO
> contributors to moderate and monitor.
>
> Maybe PR/Engagement would want their own SUMO instance? They could use the
> knowledge base function to host and localize PR statements and news
> releases, as well as archives and localizations of important blog posts
> (like the resignation FAQ) and the manifesto.
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
Majken Connor
Apr 16, 2014, 12:40:48 PM4/16/14
to Rubén Martín, gover...@lists.mozilla.org
Nicholas,
At the level of the current situation, yes, this is rare, but it's not so
rare that things are going on where we should try to engage the general
public* outside of a support capacity.
* We probably have a better term for this. I mean people who aren't
identified Mozillians who might want more information or to engage on a
single issue - a single new feature, a single campaign - and then want to
disengage.
>From the perspective of that user, the current communication channels have
too high a bar. A category on the current discourse isn't ideal as it would
basically be a firehose of information for someone who only wants to engage
on a single issue. On the flip side, that firehose is exactly why we have
the communication channels we have. Cannibalising a forum for a new purpose
will make it less good at serving its current purpose.
Dealing with an onslaught of criticism is hard for the best of us. Simply
ignoring those threads isn't well, that simple. It was an incredibly
demoralizing experience at best.
jsabash - what you're afraid of is basically what happens now. There is no
place for someone to come and engage as an outsider on a single issue. If
they post in a bug they will be told that is the wrong place, if they
complain on SUMO they will be told to register their complaint on input.
Input gets you no response. If they do make it to the relevant mailing
list, they will also probably be told to check the past discussion and the
decision was already made. None of these places are designed to engage with
users on the same questions and concerns over and over again. We made an
exception for the CEO issue because we understood how serious an issue it
was.
I also realized that the Reps program is basically tailor made to run such
a forum if we agreed it would be a good idea. Engaging with the public to
discuss Mozilla and its mission, as well as connecting them back to the
greater community is basically what Reps are entirely (I haven't run this
past other Reps leadership yet ;D )
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Rubén Martín
<nuke...@mozilla-hispano.org>wrote:
> El 16/04/14 00:05, Majken Connor escribió:
> discourse <https://discourse.mozilla-community.org/> instance?
>
> If then we find topics very diverse, we can create a new category to
> handle them and grow organically.
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
> Mozilla Reps Mentor
> http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
> http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
> http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
At the level of the current situation, yes, this is rare, but it's not so
rare that things are going on where we should try to engage the general
public* outside of a support capacity.
* We probably have a better term for this. I mean people who aren't
identified Mozillians who might want more information or to engage on a
single issue - a single new feature, a single campaign - and then want to
disengage.
>From the perspective of that user, the current communication channels have
too high a bar. A category on the current discourse isn't ideal as it would
basically be a firehose of information for someone who only wants to engage
on a single issue. On the flip side, that firehose is exactly why we have
the communication channels we have. Cannibalising a forum for a new purpose
will make it less good at serving its current purpose.
Dealing with an onslaught of criticism is hard for the best of us. Simply
ignoring those threads isn't well, that simple. It was an incredibly
demoralizing experience at best.
jsabash - what you're afraid of is basically what happens now. There is no
place for someone to come and engage as an outsider on a single issue. If
they post in a bug they will be told that is the wrong place, if they
complain on SUMO they will be told to register their complaint on input.
Input gets you no response. If they do make it to the relevant mailing
list, they will also probably be told to check the past discussion and the
decision was already made. None of these places are designed to engage with
users on the same questions and concerns over and over again. We made an
exception for the CEO issue because we understood how serious an issue it
was.
I also realized that the Reps program is basically tailor made to run such
a forum if we agreed it would be a good idea. Engaging with the public to
discuss Mozilla and its mission, as well as connecting them back to the
greater community is basically what Reps are entirely (I haven't run this
past other Reps leadership yet ;D )
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Rubén Martín
<nuke...@mozilla-hispano.org>wrote:
> El 16/04/14 00:05, Majken Connor escribió:
> > It does occur to me that Discourse would be a very good tool for this,
> > though I'd recommend a stand-alone instance from one we might use for
> > team/community communications. An area of SUMO might work as well, though
> > it would need to be a separate forum that doesn't rely on the SUMO
> > contributors to moderate and monitor.
> Why not having a "General discussion" category on the already existing
> > though I'd recommend a stand-alone instance from one we might use for
> > team/community communications. An area of SUMO might work as well, though
> > it would need to be a separate forum that doesn't rely on the SUMO
> > contributors to moderate and monitor.
> discourse <https://discourse.mozilla-community.org/> instance?
>
> If then we find topics very diverse, we can create a new category to
> handle them and grow organically.
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
> Mozilla Reps Mentor
> http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
> http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
> http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
g41...@gmail.com
Apr 16, 2014, 3:33:15 PM4/16/14
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
I am stuck using Opera now. Pressure from my peers and all. I didn't want to do it, but it's safer for me to remain quiet than for them to think I don't agree with them. I apologize, I'm weak.
Just a temporary bump in the road. Stay silent, ignore the users, insult their intelligence when it's appropriate, or at every opportunity, so that the impression that you don't give a shit is abundantly clear. It's working great so far. I'm with you guys. I got your back. Remember, you are smarter, better informed, and experts on the public's psychology, because, well I can't think of why right now, but it will come to me.
Stay strong!
Desiree
Apr 16, 2014, 10:34:24 AM4/16/14
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
much if you allow comments here or some new place. You have already
created a negative experience and indicated no discussion wanted. Why
bother having a Mozilla blog if no one can comment? It would be more
honest to just have press releases.
Till Schneidereit
Apr 17, 2014, 12:07:21 PM4/17/14
to g41...@gmail.com, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 9:33 PM, <g41...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 7:49:36 PM UTC-6, Nicholas Nethercote wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 7:49:36 PM UTC-6, Nicholas Nethercote wrote:
> > I think implementing a new system to address the recent situation is a
> >
> > waste of time and effort. Issues like this one are incredibly rare.
> >
> > And if you don't want to read the critical emails to governance it
> >
> > doesn't take long to skim over them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
>
> >
> > waste of time and effort. Issues like this one are incredibly rare.
> >
> > And if you don't want to read the critical emails to governance it
> >
> > doesn't take long to skim over them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
>
considerable amounts of time to actively engage with people posting highly
critical things over the last few weeks here. Reading your message the way
I think I'm supposed to, i.e., exactly inverted, I'm pretty sure he agrees
on a great deal of points with you.
All he said was that it's not useful to implement an entirely new system
instead of keeping to use existing ones, like this one. People who want to
keep using the governance mailing list for other things can just do so.
David Rajchenbach-Teller
Apr 17, 2014, 5:59:58 PM4/17/14
to Desiree, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi Desiree,
As you may have noticed, the Mozilla blog never allows comments. I'm
pretty sure it never has. For conversations, we have dozens of
mailing-lists/newsgroups/forums that are better places, including this
one. And we suspect that Discourse would be an even better place.
Personally, I'd like to give it a try.
Best regards,
David
On 16/04/14 16:34, Desiree wrote:
> When you close comments totally on the Mozilla blog it doesn't matter
> much if you allow comments here or some new place. You have already
> created a negative experience and indicated no discussion wanted. Why
> bother having a Mozilla blog if no one can comment? It would be more
> honest to just have press releases.
David Rajchenbach-Teller, PhD
Performance Team, Mozilla
As you may have noticed, the Mozilla blog never allows comments. I'm
pretty sure it never has. For conversations, we have dozens of
mailing-lists/newsgroups/forums that are better places, including this
one. And we suspect that Discourse would be an even better place.
Personally, I'd like to give it a try.
Best regards,
David
On 16/04/14 16:34, Desiree wrote:
> When you close comments totally on the Mozilla blog it doesn't matter
> much if you allow comments here or some new place. You have already
> created a negative experience and indicated no discussion wanted. Why
> bother having a Mozilla blog if no one can comment? It would be more
> honest to just have press releases.
> _______________________________________________
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
--
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
David Rajchenbach-Teller, PhD
Performance Team, Mozilla
Chris Peterson
Apr 17, 2014, 9:24:18 PM4/17/14
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
On 4/17/14, 2:59 PM, David Rajchenbach-Teller wrote:
> As you may have noticed, the Mozilla blog never allows comments. I'm
> pretty sure it never has.
The Mozilla blog should just remove its comment section. That the
> As you may have noticed, the Mozilla blog never allows comments. I'm
> pretty sure it never has.
comment section exists but is (always) disabled causes confusion or
people to shout "censorship!" every time there is a controversial blog post.
chris
Desiree
Apr 19, 2014, 7:26:22 AM4/19/14
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
comments. I was thinking of Mitchell Baker's blog that does allow
comments....well, sometimes does and there was a really good discussion
on her blog when she first posted about Brendan resigning.
I think the comments section on the Mozilla blog should just be removed.
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