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Firefox and Christmas
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Majken Connor
Dec 25, 2012, 4:47:32 PM12/25/12
to gover...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi all. I have some concerns about the posts on the official facebook and
twitter accounts.
Most places celebrate the winter solstice either religiously or culturally.
For most of december the posts referred to generic holidays. Today and
yesterday there are posts about tracking santa and getting presents. While
there were no direct religious references and many people don't celebrate
religiously (I try to refer to it as yule myself) it's still very much
entwined with the religious festival.
What is/should the policy be in terms of how we use cultural celebrations
to promote firefox, especially in light of the community guidelines? I
think right now there's a conflict in that we've agreed Mozilla is Mozilla
and personal is personal for community interaction, but the social media
accounts have been trying to increase the personal connection with their
followers.
For example there is a post asking people what presents they got to which
one person replied "I am not a fan of Mozilla Firefox to tell it what I got
for Christmas." That sums up my opinion on it but I also respect the
benefits of the followers feeling a personal connection to the product.
I'm just not sure what to think, as I said, given the community guidelines.
twitter accounts.
Most places celebrate the winter solstice either religiously or culturally.
For most of december the posts referred to generic holidays. Today and
yesterday there are posts about tracking santa and getting presents. While
there were no direct religious references and many people don't celebrate
religiously (I try to refer to it as yule myself) it's still very much
entwined with the religious festival.
What is/should the policy be in terms of how we use cultural celebrations
to promote firefox, especially in light of the community guidelines? I
think right now there's a conflict in that we've agreed Mozilla is Mozilla
and personal is personal for community interaction, but the social media
accounts have been trying to increase the personal connection with their
followers.
For example there is a post asking people what presents they got to which
one person replied "I am not a fan of Mozilla Firefox to tell it what I got
for Christmas." That sums up my opinion on it but I also respect the
benefits of the followers feeling a personal connection to the product.
I'm just not sure what to think, as I said, given the community guidelines.
Rubén Martín
Dec 25, 2012, 5:54:51 PM12/25/12
to gover...@lists.mozilla.org
I agree.
El 25/12/12 22:47, Majken Connor escribió:
Regards.
--
Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
Mozilla Reps Mentor
http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
El 25/12/12 22:47, Majken Connor escribió:
> Most places celebrate the winter solstice either religiously or culturally.
Don't forget the other half of the globe celebrates the summer ;)
Regards.
--
Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
Mozilla Reps Mentor
http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
Majken Connor
Dec 25, 2012, 7:28:22 PM12/25/12
to Rubén Martín, gover...@lists.mozilla.org
Lol yes! I've seen that called out a couple times, need to work on
remembering that, too.
On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Rubén Martín
<nuke...@mozilla-hispano.org>wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
>
>
remembering that, too.
On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Rubén Martín
<nuke...@mozilla-hispano.org>wrote:
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
>
>
Jusai Prieto
Dec 25, 2012, 6:47:52 PM12/25/12
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, gover...@lists.mozilla.org
I don't totally agree.
I am the social media manager at Mozilla Hispano and we have also posted about Christmas (without using terms relating to religion) and we had no negative comments. Regardless, I think what you comment should be voted on by the community, because I see no way how that goes against the community guidelines because we are looking for engagement and not the exclusion.
Maybe the option is changing the tone in the posts on the social media accounts of Firefox...
Regards
--
Jusaí Prieto
Social Media Manager
http://mozilla-hispano.org
http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
I am the social media manager at Mozilla Hispano and we have also posted about Christmas (without using terms relating to religion) and we had no negative comments. Regardless, I think what you comment should be voted on by the community, because I see no way how that goes against the community guidelines because we are looking for engagement and not the exclusion.
Maybe the option is changing the tone in the posts on the social media accounts of Firefox...
Regards
--
Jusaí Prieto
Social Media Manager
http://mozilla-hispano.org
http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
Jusai Prieto
Dec 25, 2012, 6:47:52 PM12/25/12
to mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, gover...@lists.mozilla.org
Gervase Markham
Dec 26, 2012, 4:45:26 AM12/26/12
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
On 25/12/12 21:47, Majken Connor wrote:
> Hi all. I have some concerns about the posts on the official facebook and
> twitter accounts.
For those not on Facebook and/or Twitter, and for clarity, would you
> Hi all. I have some concerns about the posts on the official facebook and
> twitter accounts.
mind quoting the posts you are concerned about?
> Most places celebrate the winter solstice either religiously or culturally.
> For most of december the posts referred to generic holidays. Today and
> yesterday there are posts about tracking santa and getting presents. While
> there were no direct religious references and many people don't celebrate
> religiously (I try to refer to it as yule myself) it's still very much
> entwined with the religious festival.
has about as much to do with the true meaning of the Christian festival
of Christmas (celebrating the awesomeness of the birth of Jesus Christ)
as snow has. In fact, Santa represents much that is _wrong_ about
people's perceptions of God. For an awesome explanation of this, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpu3v5uxZTY
So I don't agree that a reference to Santa is a religious reference.
But even if it were, I also don't agree that references to current
religious festivals by the Firefox Facebook/Twitter accounts are
inappropriate. Mozillians may not all agree on the significance of such
things, but I hope we can agree not to be upset by the fact that others
find them significant, and the fact that they find them significant can
be referred to.
BTW, "Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a religious festival observed by
the Northern European peoples, later being absorbed into and equated
with the Christian festival of Christmas. The earliest references to
Yule are by way of indigenous Germanic month names (Ærra Jéola (Before
Yule) or Jiuli and Æftera Jéola (After Yule). Scholars have connected
the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon
Modranicht."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
So if, by that name, you are attempting not to make a religious
reference, I'm afraid you'll need another one. Or, we could all just
agree not to get stressed about the fact that it's a religious festival :-)
> What is/should the policy be in terms of how we use cultural celebrations
> to promote firefox, especially in light of the community guidelines?
actively used to try and make Mozilla a culture or religion-free zone.
As well as being impossible, the attempt would IMO be damaging and lead
to sterility in our personal interactions.
Gerv
Rubén Martín
Dec 26, 2012, 4:48:20 AM12/26/12
to gover...@lists.mozilla.org
El 26/12/12 00:47, Jusai Prieto escribió:
religious festivities? Which ones should we choose? Why?
It's easier not to refer to any, so you won't exclude anybody.
> I don't totally agree.
>
> I am the social media manager at Mozilla Hispano and we have also posted about Christmas (without using terms relating to religion) and we had no negative comments. Regardless, I think what you comment should be voted on by the community, because I see no way how that goes against the community guidelines because we are looking for engagement and not the exclusion.
> Maybe the option is changing the tone in the posts on the social media accounts of Firefox...
What the reason for referring to Christmas and not to all other
>
> I am the social media manager at Mozilla Hispano and we have also posted about Christmas (without using terms relating to religion) and we had no negative comments. Regardless, I think what you comment should be voted on by the community, because I see no way how that goes against the community guidelines because we are looking for engagement and not the exclusion.
> Maybe the option is changing the tone in the posts on the social media accounts of Firefox...
religious festivities? Which ones should we choose? Why?
It's easier not to refer to any, so you won't exclude anybody.
David Bruant
Dec 26, 2012, 5:47:04 AM12/26/12
to Gervase Markham, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
Le 26/12/2012 10:45, Gervase Markham a écrit :
> On 25/12/12 21:47, Majken Connor wrote:
> On 25/12/12 21:47, Majken Connor wrote:
>> Hi all. I have some concerns about the posts on the official facebook
>> and
>> twitter accounts.
>
>> and
>> twitter accounts.
>
> For those not on Facebook and/or Twitter, and for clarity, would you
> mind quoting the posts you are concerned about?
I also don't see the posts
> mind quoting the posts you are concerned about?
>> What is/should the policy be in terms of how we use cultural
>> celebrations
>> to promote firefox, especially in light of the community guidelines?
>
> I would be surprised and disappointed if the community guidelines were
> actively used to try and make Mozilla a culture or religion-free zone.
> As well as being impossible, the attempt would IMO be damaging and
> lead to sterility in our personal interactions.
I'm balanced on this point.
> actively used to try and make Mozilla a culture or religion-free zone.
> As well as being impossible, the attempt would IMO be damaging and
> lead to sterility in our personal interactions.
Before going any further, I wish to say that I'm aware that what I'm
about to say may be controversial. By saying it, I don't mean to hurt
anyone. I'm describing and analyzing based on my personal experience,
which I know is biaised, uneven, incomplete and inaccurate. Feel free to
correct what I write if you feel I'm mistaken.
I come from France. I've spent a year in California during my studies.
From my experience (I could be wrong because I haven't experienced 100%
of the US), the sterility in personal interactions is a "default"
attitude in the US.
This got me thinking a lot. If I was asked an explanation (and I could
be completely wrong here too), it would be that the US were formed
through lots of immigration waves, bringing people from different
cultures, different contexts I would even say. In order for some many
different people to cohabit, it seems natural that they had to agree on
common grounds to say "hello", things to eat at events, etc. At every
event I went to in the US, there was at least vegetarian food for instance.
At MozFest 2011, IIRC, meals were vegan and gluten-free. That a common
denominator so that people from most known religions and with most known
allergies eat safely according to their eating restrictions. Now, the
MozFest organization could have set up 2 or 3 different menus, some with
meat, some with pork, but that would have probably been much more
annoying to organize.
A common denominator is the best chance to be offense-free. I agree with
you that there is some loss (what you call "sterility") in the choice of
a common denominator, but at the same time, what's the alternative? How
do you prevent people from being offended in a public communication
while keeping some cultural aspects that may offend people from
different cultures?
I don't think policy or community guideline can be a solution here.
Handing off the keys to the public communication accounts to a
multi-cultural group of mozillians who will have to agree through
consensus (without necessarily voting) may be.
All the best,
David
Daniel Glazman
Dec 26, 2012, 5:57:48 AM12/26/12
to mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
On 26/12/12 10:45, Gervase Markham wrote:
> So I don't agree that a reference to Santa is a religious reference.
It *is* a religious reference. In my family, Santa and Xmas represent
> So I don't agree that a reference to Santa is a religious reference.
absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
> But even if it were, I also don't agree that references to current
> religious festivals by the Firefox Facebook/Twitter accounts are
> inappropriate. Mozillians may not all agree on the significance of such
> things, but I hope we can agree not to be upset by the fact that others
> find them significant, and the fact that they find them significant can
> be referred to.
>
> BTW, "Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a religious festival observed by
> the Northern European peoples, later being absorbed into and equated
> with the Christian festival of Christmas. The earliest references to
> Yule are by way of indigenous Germanic month names (Ærra Jéola (Before
> Yule) or Jiuli and Æftera Jéola (After Yule). Scholars have connected
> the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon
> Modranicht."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
reference, the day of Sol Invictus, and most certainly before that the
day of Mithra. Come on, Gervase, this is not a discussion about Human
History but about present times. In present times, Christmas and Santa
are christian references (unless someone is praying Mithra here ?-).
> I would be surprised and disappointed if the community guidelines were
> actively used to try and make Mozilla a culture or religion-free zone.
to read or avoid reading what we don't want to read. And ultimately
complain if needed. The only thing I certainly do not want is proselytism.
</Daniel>
Daniel Glazman
Dec 26, 2012, 5:57:48 AM12/26/12
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
On 26/12/12 10:45, Gervase Markham wrote:
> So I don't agree that a reference to Santa is a religious reference.
It *is* a religious reference. In my family, Santa and Xmas represent
absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
> But even if it were, I also don't agree that references to current
> religious festivals by the Firefox Facebook/Twitter accounts are
> inappropriate. Mozillians may not all agree on the significance of such
> things, but I hope we can agree not to be upset by the fact that others
> find them significant, and the fact that they find them significant can
> be referred to.
>
> BTW, "Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a religious festival observed by
> the Northern European peoples, later being absorbed into and equated
> with the Christian festival of Christmas. The earliest references to
> Yule are by way of indigenous Germanic month names (Ærra Jéola (Before
> Yule) or Jiuli and Æftera Jéola (After Yule). Scholars have connected
> the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon
> Modranicht."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
> religious festivals by the Firefox Facebook/Twitter accounts are
> inappropriate. Mozillians may not all agree on the significance of such
> things, but I hope we can agree not to be upset by the fact that others
> find them significant, and the fact that they find them significant can
> be referred to.
>
> BTW, "Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a religious festival observed by
> the Northern European peoples, later being absorbed into and equated
> with the Christian festival of Christmas. The earliest references to
> Yule are by way of indigenous Germanic month names (Ærra Jéola (Before
> Yule) or Jiuli and Æftera Jéola (After Yule). Scholars have connected
> the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon
> Modranicht."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
You could also remind us that the 25th of december is just a pagan
reference, the day of Sol Invictus, and most certainly before that the
day of Mithra. Come on, Gervase, this is not a discussion about Human
History but about present times. In present times, Christmas and Santa
are christian references (unless someone is praying Mithra here ?-).
reference, the day of Sol Invictus, and most certainly before that the
day of Mithra. Come on, Gervase, this is not a discussion about Human
History but about present times. In present times, Christmas and Santa
are christian references (unless someone is praying Mithra here ?-).
> I would be surprised and disappointed if the community guidelines were
> actively used to try and make Mozilla a culture or religion-free zone.
> actively used to try and make Mozilla a culture or religion-free zone.
Sheeri Cabral
Dec 26, 2012, 10:13:14 AM12/26/12
to Rubén Martín, gover...@lists.mozilla.org
The reason? My conjecture is that Christian Christmas (the Dec. 25th one, as opposed to Greek or Russian Orthodox Christmas) is a holiday that Marketing believes is celebrated by a vast majority of our followers/fans/whatever.
I'd bet they have plans to say "Happy New Year", too. Because a vast majority of our social media followers observe that too.
I don't celebrate the birth of Christ, but I do have a meal and exchange presents with my married family, which doesn't believe in any one religion. Before I met my spouse, I attended any number of "orphan Christmas" or "gathering together while everyone else celebrates Christmas" gatherings.
If anything, I'm surprised that people aren't calling out the inherent consumerism in the messages - it's all about Santa and presents.
I saw the Facebook message and I thought it'd be odd to tell Mozilla Firefox what I got for Christmas. But not because of any religious affiliation or lack thereof. Perhaps if it was something that other people might want to read, like "what is your favorite Christmas memory" or even "Christmas is coming, what's your favorite holiday memory?" That way those who don't celebrate could be included, because surely they celebrate *some* holiday.
http://www.facebook.com/Firefox
Dec 25th, early morning Eastern Standard Time in the US: "OMG...presents! Did you get presents? What did you get?"
Dec 24th: "Will you be using Firefox to track Santa this year? We've put out the milk and cookies, and carrots for the reindeer: http://www.noradsanta.org/"
- note that this is actually related to Firefox.
Dec 23rd: "Happy holidays! Our gift to you - our Facebook fans - free wallpapers for your computer or other devices. This link lets you chose your color, and then your size: http://mzl.la/UZS0Li"
Dec 22nd: "Although the Mayan calendar ended yesterday, we see you're still here browsing the Web! And did you know that you can download Firefox in Mayan? http://mzl.la/12wz3VQ"
Dec 21st: "Does your best friend use Firefox?" (with a pic of 2 people wearing FF shirts)
Dec 20th: "Have a safe and secure holiday, online and off." (with an image with the firefox logo that says the same thing)
Dec 19th: "What's your favorite Firefox t-shirt?" (with a pic of probably 2 dozen t-shirts)
Dec 18th: "2012 was the Chinese Year of the Dragon, but around here, we think it's the year of the Fox. Firefox for Android, that is. Have you seen all the cool features from 2012? http://mzl.la/TRgswV"
Other than numerous mentions of holiday shopping (many of which are Firefox related, like using Private Browsing to make sure your gifts are a secret), US Thanksgiving was mentioned on Nov 22nd (just with "Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!"). That's extremely US-centric, and nobody complained there. Nov 11th saw a mention of "Friendship Day"*. Nov 9th saw Firefox's 8th birthday. Nov 5th said "Happy World Wide Web Day".
Sept 25th offered "a fall theme" to Firefox, also Northern-Hemisphere-centric.
So, those are some data points.....Not to mention that holiday mentions are way too late for, say, Australian Firefox fans to care.
You can't please everyone.
As a Jew, I recognize that when someone says "Merry Christmas" to me, they want me to have a good Dec. 25th (unless they're Russian or Greek Orthodox....and I live in a town with very large Armenian and Greek populations, so there are plenty of Christmas celebrations still to come).
With that being said, I hope everyone had a good Dec 25th, and hopefully Marketing will see some points and improve. We don't need to be Google with a different message most days.
My opinion is I would have rather the Facebook page's message have been about peace and love instead of presents and consumerism, but I'm not offended or put off by that.
-Sheeri
*note that International Friendship Day is in early August, so I'm not sure what happened there.
I'd bet they have plans to say "Happy New Year", too. Because a vast majority of our social media followers observe that too.
I don't celebrate the birth of Christ, but I do have a meal and exchange presents with my married family, which doesn't believe in any one religion. Before I met my spouse, I attended any number of "orphan Christmas" or "gathering together while everyone else celebrates Christmas" gatherings.
If anything, I'm surprised that people aren't calling out the inherent consumerism in the messages - it's all about Santa and presents.
I saw the Facebook message and I thought it'd be odd to tell Mozilla Firefox what I got for Christmas. But not because of any religious affiliation or lack thereof. Perhaps if it was something that other people might want to read, like "what is your favorite Christmas memory" or even "Christmas is coming, what's your favorite holiday memory?" That way those who don't celebrate could be included, because surely they celebrate *some* holiday.
http://www.facebook.com/Firefox
Dec 25th, early morning Eastern Standard Time in the US: "OMG...presents! Did you get presents? What did you get?"
Dec 24th: "Will you be using Firefox to track Santa this year? We've put out the milk and cookies, and carrots for the reindeer: http://www.noradsanta.org/"
- note that this is actually related to Firefox.
Dec 23rd: "Happy holidays! Our gift to you - our Facebook fans - free wallpapers for your computer or other devices. This link lets you chose your color, and then your size: http://mzl.la/UZS0Li"
Dec 22nd: "Although the Mayan calendar ended yesterday, we see you're still here browsing the Web! And did you know that you can download Firefox in Mayan? http://mzl.la/12wz3VQ"
Dec 21st: "Does your best friend use Firefox?" (with a pic of 2 people wearing FF shirts)
Dec 20th: "Have a safe and secure holiday, online and off." (with an image with the firefox logo that says the same thing)
Dec 19th: "What's your favorite Firefox t-shirt?" (with a pic of probably 2 dozen t-shirts)
Dec 18th: "2012 was the Chinese Year of the Dragon, but around here, we think it's the year of the Fox. Firefox for Android, that is. Have you seen all the cool features from 2012? http://mzl.la/TRgswV"
Other than numerous mentions of holiday shopping (many of which are Firefox related, like using Private Browsing to make sure your gifts are a secret), US Thanksgiving was mentioned on Nov 22nd (just with "Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!"). That's extremely US-centric, and nobody complained there. Nov 11th saw a mention of "Friendship Day"*. Nov 9th saw Firefox's 8th birthday. Nov 5th said "Happy World Wide Web Day".
Sept 25th offered "a fall theme" to Firefox, also Northern-Hemisphere-centric.
So, those are some data points.....Not to mention that holiday mentions are way too late for, say, Australian Firefox fans to care.
You can't please everyone.
As a Jew, I recognize that when someone says "Merry Christmas" to me, they want me to have a good Dec. 25th (unless they're Russian or Greek Orthodox....and I live in a town with very large Armenian and Greek populations, so there are plenty of Christmas celebrations still to come).
With that being said, I hope everyone had a good Dec 25th, and hopefully Marketing will see some points and improve. We don't need to be Google with a different message most days.
My opinion is I would have rather the Facebook page's message have been about peace and love instead of presents and consumerism, but I'm not offended or put off by that.
-Sheeri
*note that International Friendship Day is in early August, so I'm not sure what happened there.
Majken Connor
Dec 26, 2012, 11:50:50 AM12/26/12
to gover...@lists.mozilla.org
Oops. Reply all is even harder to remember from a phone!
On Dec 26, 2012 11:43 AM, "Majken Connor" <maj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 26, 2012 5:47 AM, "David Bruant" <brua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Le 26/12/2012 10:45, Gervase Markham a écrit :
> >
> >> On 25/12/12 21:47, Majken Connor wrote:
> >>>
> without being logged in.
> One thing I was thinking, if we decided to leave specific references off
> the main account, we could leave it to the regional communities. The main
> account could retweet or refer to the original community post, eg "happy
> thanksgiving to our friends in @moztoronto!"
>
> Though the question still remains if community accounts should also avoid
> non-mozilla topics or if they have should have freedom because they
> represent more specific groups.
>
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > David
On Dec 26, 2012 11:43 AM, "Majken Connor" <maj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 26, 2012 5:47 AM, "David Bruant" <brua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Le 26/12/2012 10:45, Gervase Markham a écrit :
> >
> >> On 25/12/12 21:47, Majken Connor wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi all. I have some concerns about the posts on the official facebook
> and
> >>> twitter accounts.
> >>
> >>
> and
> >>> twitter accounts.
> >>
> >>
> >> For those not on Facebook and/or Twitter, and for clarity, would you
> mind quoting the posts you are concerned about?
> >
> > I also don't see the posts
> >
>
> Thanks to Sheeri for posting them. I think you can see the twitter page
> mind quoting the posts you are concerned about?
> >
> > I also don't see the posts
> >
>
> without being logged in.
>
> >
> >>> What is/should the policy be in terms of how we use cultural
> celebrations
> >>> to promote firefox, especially in light of the community guidelines?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >>> What is/should the policy be in terms of how we use cultural
> celebrations
> >>> to promote firefox, especially in light of the community guidelines?
> >>
> >>
> >> I would be surprised and disappointed if the community guidelines were
> the main account, we could leave it to the regional communities. The main
> account could retweet or refer to the original community post, eg "happy
> thanksgiving to our friends in @moztoronto!"
>
> Though the question still remains if community accounts should also avoid
> non-mozilla topics or if they have should have freedom because they
> represent more specific groups.
>
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > David
Rubén Martín
Dec 26, 2012, 1:00:08 PM12/26/12
to Sheeri Cabral, gover...@lists.mozilla.org
El 26/12/12 16:13, Sheeri Cabral escribió:
calendar is used worldwide in civil life except in Saudi Arabia,
Ethiopia, Iran and Afghanistan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_calendar
Year will change in everyone's computers ;)
> I'd bet they have plans to say "Happy New Year", too. Because a vast majority of our social media followers observe that too.
Strictly speaking, dates and times are a global consensus. Gregorian
calendar is used worldwide in civil life except in Saudi Arabia,
Ethiopia, Iran and Afghanistan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_calendar
Year will change in everyone's computers ;)
Gervase Markham
Dec 27, 2012, 3:32:52 PM12/27/12
to Daniel Glazman
On 26/12/12 10:57, Daniel Glazman wrote:
> It *is* a religious reference. In my family, Santa and Xmas represent
> absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
That's a non sequitur. Santa can mean nothing to you even if you are a
> It *is* a religious reference. In my family, Santa and Xmas represent
> absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
Christian. Or it can mean something to you if you're not a Christian -
plenty of non-Christian families "believe in" Santa.
What has Santa (as in, the red-suited Ho-Ho-Ho version of 2012) got to
do with the birth of Jesus Christ? Nothing.
> You could also remind us that the 25th of december is just a pagan
> reference, the day of Sol Invictus, and most certainly before that the
> day of Mithra.
> Come on, Gervase, this is not a discussion about Human
> History but about present times. In present times, Christmas and Santa
> are christian references (unless someone is praying Mithra here ?-).
Gerv
Majken Connor
Dec 27, 2012, 6:05:43 PM12/27/12
to Gervase Markham, Daniel Glazman, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi Gerv,
I think that is all besides the point. In North America we call the holiday
Christmas (which is a catholic word) and we associate Santa with Christmas
(and in fact he is derived from a Saint if we want to keep being
historical, and possibly is pagan before that), not with a different
holiday that occurs at the same time. While everyone celebrates it
differently (or not at all) Santa is still *entwined* with the religious
celebration.
My point also wasn't to call out the fact that the reference was
specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
much as possible.
The real issue I want to raise is that we have community guidelines about
being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events to
help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
The popcorn political ad maker during the US election is an interesting
example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right track.
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Gervase Markham <ge...@mozilla.org> wrote:
> On 26/12/12 10:57, Daniel Glazman wrote:
I think that is all besides the point. In North America we call the holiday
Christmas (which is a catholic word) and we associate Santa with Christmas
(and in fact he is derived from a Saint if we want to keep being
historical, and possibly is pagan before that), not with a different
holiday that occurs at the same time. While everyone celebrates it
differently (or not at all) Santa is still *entwined* with the religious
celebration.
My point also wasn't to call out the fact that the reference was
specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
much as possible.
The real issue I want to raise is that we have community guidelines about
being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events to
help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
The popcorn political ad maker during the US election is an interesting
example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right track.
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Gervase Markham <ge...@mozilla.org> wrote:
> On 26/12/12 10:57, Daniel Glazman wrote:
> > It *is* a religious reference. In my family, Santa and Xmas represent
> > absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
>
> > absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
>
> That's a non sequitur. Santa can mean nothing to you even if you are a
> Christian. Or it can mean something to you if you're not a Christian -
> plenty of non-Christian families "believe in" Santa.
>
> What has Santa (as in, the red-suited Ho-Ho-Ho version of 2012) got to
> do with the birth of Jesus Christ? Nothing.
>
> Christian. Or it can mean something to you if you're not a Christian -
> plenty of non-Christian families "believe in" Santa.
>
> What has Santa (as in, the red-suited Ho-Ho-Ho version of 2012) got to
> do with the birth of Jesus Christ? Nothing.
>
> > You could also remind us that the 25th of december is just a pagan
> > reference, the day of Sol Invictus, and most certainly before that the
> > day of Mithra.
>
> Yes, that too :-)
> > reference, the day of Sol Invictus, and most certainly before that the
> > day of Mithra.
>
>
> > Come on, Gervase, this is not a discussion about Human
> > History but about present times. In present times, Christmas and Santa
> > are christian references (unless someone is praying Mithra here ?-).
>
> > Come on, Gervase, this is not a discussion about Human
> > History but about present times. In present times, Christmas and Santa
> > are christian references (unless someone is praying Mithra here ?-).
>
> Christmas is, or can be; Santa is not.
>
> Gerv
>
>
> Gerv
>
Robert Kaiser
Dec 28, 2012, 9:44:56 AM12/28/12
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
Daniel Glazman schrieb:
flying sleigh. And that's the guy that is being tracked, in this weird
thing. The background of Saint Nikolaus, whose catholic holiday is on
the 6th of December, is christian, of course. Somehow somewhere those
two were merged, probably in the usual way that Christianity tried to
blend in with the already existing traditions.
Especially strange to people like us here in Austria where this all is
an alien (read: American) import into our culture. Around here it's the
little child of Christ himself who is flying around all by itself
delivering the presents.
So, of course, tracking Santa is a very narrow cultural reference,
applying only to those cultures where that Coca-Cola-colored man plays
any role. It's not a religious/christian reference, IMHO (or else he
would be an icon to us catholic Austrians as well, right?), but cultural
of course. I know a number of Austrians who ridicule stuff like
"tracking Santa" for "only the Americans being that crazy".
When communicating in an international language like English, we'll
always bump into cultural references - esp. as the language itself is
culture and therefore just using common words is a cultural reference at
some points.
We need to keep that in mind when doing posts as Mozilla, of course. I'm
not sure we can or should completely refrain from any cultural
references, but I was on the side that we decided against in some other
discussions like that already, so don't take my opinion to this as
anything that counts within the accepted canon.
BTW, I fully understand that in e.g. Spanish, we won't have that problem
at all, as the communities of people speaking that language are overall
more deeply Christian than the oh-so-politically-correct-in-public
Americans or the more global English-speaking communities.
Robert Kaiser
> On 26/12/12 10:45, Gervase Markham wrote:
>
>> So I don't agree that a reference to Santa is a religious reference.
>
> It *is* a religious reference. In my family, Santa and Xmas represent
> absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
Neither is the background of the man from the North Pole riding the
>
>> So I don't agree that a reference to Santa is a religious reference.
>
> It *is* a religious reference. In my family, Santa and Xmas represent
> absolutely nothing because our background is not christian.
flying sleigh. And that's the guy that is being tracked, in this weird
thing. The background of Saint Nikolaus, whose catholic holiday is on
the 6th of December, is christian, of course. Somehow somewhere those
two were merged, probably in the usual way that Christianity tried to
blend in with the already existing traditions.
Especially strange to people like us here in Austria where this all is
an alien (read: American) import into our culture. Around here it's the
little child of Christ himself who is flying around all by itself
delivering the presents.
So, of course, tracking Santa is a very narrow cultural reference,
applying only to those cultures where that Coca-Cola-colored man plays
any role. It's not a religious/christian reference, IMHO (or else he
would be an icon to us catholic Austrians as well, right?), but cultural
of course. I know a number of Austrians who ridicule stuff like
"tracking Santa" for "only the Americans being that crazy".
When communicating in an international language like English, we'll
always bump into cultural references - esp. as the language itself is
culture and therefore just using common words is a cultural reference at
some points.
We need to keep that in mind when doing posts as Mozilla, of course. I'm
not sure we can or should completely refrain from any cultural
references, but I was on the side that we decided against in some other
discussions like that already, so don't take my opinion to this as
anything that counts within the accepted canon.
BTW, I fully understand that in e.g. Spanish, we won't have that problem
at all, as the communities of people speaking that language are overall
more deeply Christian than the oh-so-politically-correct-in-public
Americans or the more global English-speaking communities.
Robert Kaiser
Rubén Martín
Dec 28, 2012, 4:51:07 PM12/28/12
to gover...@lists.mozilla.org
El 28/12/12 15:44, Robert Kaiser escribió:
measure to use or not use a religious reference. We communicate to
everyone, not just the prototype of the average citizen.
Being inclusive in religious/politic matters is easy when you don't use
them at all.
>
> BTW, I fully understand that in e.g. Spanish, we won't have that
> problem at all, as the communities of people speaking that language
> are overall more deeply Christian than the
> oh-so-politically-correct-in-public Americans or the more global
> English-speaking communities.
From my point of view how deep a religion is on a country is not a fair
> BTW, I fully understand that in e.g. Spanish, we won't have that
> problem at all, as the communities of people speaking that language
> are overall more deeply Christian than the
> oh-so-politically-correct-in-public Americans or the more global
> English-speaking communities.
measure to use or not use a religious reference. We communicate to
everyone, not just the prototype of the average citizen.
Being inclusive in religious/politic matters is easy when you don't use
them at all.
wrey...@mozilla.com
Dec 28, 2012, 3:11:43 PM12/28/12
to mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, Daniel Glazman, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, Gervase Markham
There is lots of great discussion here. Thanks for all the feedback and for voicing your concerns.
I've been managing our Firefox social media accounts for a couple years, and I helped write our posts, including our holiday-themed content.
With our current process, me and Carmen, our content editor, write engaging content that our millions of Firefox fans will enjoy. This content should take into account our messaging priorities and always hold up to Mozilla's values. Once drafted, the content is then approved by our content team in User Engagement before it is posted.
We try to be very careful about avoiding posting content related to personal viewpoints such as politics or religion. We do try to mention relevant holidays when we think our fans will enjoy the content.
Some responses below.
On Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Majken Connor wrote:
> My point also wasn't to call out the fact that the reference was
>
> specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
>
> posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
>
> posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
>
> references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
>
> much as possible.
We did try to avoid direct references for religion for reasons mentioned above. Most of our holiday posts are pretty broad. The specific ones about Christmas were published later in December as Christmas day approached and it was therefore more relevant.
> The real issue I want to raise is that we have community guidelines about
>
> being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
>
> door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
>
> Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
>
> engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
>
> act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
>
> news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events to
>
> help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
This is a key question. I think it's okay to leverage non-Mozilla new and events when it's appropriate for users and is consistent with our values. Lots of international days and holidays are great opportunities. A few examples are Friendship Day, Thanksgiving (United States), and One Web Day.
> The popcorn political ad maker during the US election is an interesting
>
> example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
>
> and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
>
> yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right track.
I love this example, and I'd like to see us have more activities like this that we can feature on our channels.
I've been managing our Firefox social media accounts for a couple years, and I helped write our posts, including our holiday-themed content.
With our current process, me and Carmen, our content editor, write engaging content that our millions of Firefox fans will enjoy. This content should take into account our messaging priorities and always hold up to Mozilla's values. Once drafted, the content is then approved by our content team in User Engagement before it is posted.
We try to be very careful about avoiding posting content related to personal viewpoints such as politics or religion. We do try to mention relevant holidays when we think our fans will enjoy the content.
Some responses below.
On Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Majken Connor wrote:
> My point also wasn't to call out the fact that the reference was
>
> specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
>
> posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
>
> posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
>
> references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
>
> much as possible.
> The real issue I want to raise is that we have community guidelines about
>
> being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
>
> door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
>
> Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
>
> engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
>
> act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
>
> news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events to
>
> help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
> The popcorn political ad maker during the US election is an interesting
>
> example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
>
> and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
>
> yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right track.
wrey...@mozilla.com
Dec 28, 2012, 3:11:43 PM12/28/12
to mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, Daniel Glazman, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, Gervase Markham
There is lots of great discussion here. Thanks for all the feedback and for voicing your concerns.
I've been managing our Firefox social media accounts for a couple years, and I helped write our posts, including our holiday-themed content.
With our current process, me and Carmen, our content editor, write engaging content that our millions of Firefox fans will enjoy. This content should take into account our messaging priorities and always hold up to Mozilla's values. Once drafted, the content is then approved by our content team in User Engagement before it is posted.
We try to be very careful about avoiding posting content related to personal viewpoints such as politics or religion. We do try to mention relevant holidays when we think our fans will enjoy the content.
Some responses below.
On Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Majken Connor wrote:
I've been managing our Firefox social media accounts for a couple years, and I helped write our posts, including our holiday-themed content.
With our current process, me and Carmen, our content editor, write engaging content that our millions of Firefox fans will enjoy. This content should take into account our messaging priorities and always hold up to Mozilla's values. Once drafted, the content is then approved by our content team in User Engagement before it is posted.
We try to be very careful about avoiding posting content related to personal viewpoints such as politics or religion. We do try to mention relevant holidays when we think our fans will enjoy the content.
Some responses below.
On Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Majken Connor wrote:
> My point also wasn't to call out the fact that the reference was
>
> specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
>
> posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
>
> posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
>
> references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
>
> much as possible.
>
> specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
>
> posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
>
> posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
>
> references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
>
> much as possible.
We did try to avoid direct references for religion for reasons mentioned above. Most of our holiday posts are pretty broad. The specific ones about Christmas were published later in December as Christmas day approached and it was therefore more relevant.
> The real issue I want to raise is that we have community guidelines about
>
> being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
>
> door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
>
> Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
>
> engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
>
> act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
>
> news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events to
>
> help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
>
> being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
>
> door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
>
> Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
>
> engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
>
> act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
>
> news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events to
>
> help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
This is a key question. I think it's okay to leverage non-Mozilla new and events when it's appropriate for users and is consistent with our values. Lots of international days and holidays are great opportunities. A few examples are Friendship Day, Thanksgiving (United States), and One Web Day.
> The popcorn political ad maker during the US election is an interesting
>
> example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
>
> and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
>
> yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right track.
>
> example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
>
> and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
>
> yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right track.
Gervase Markham
Dec 29, 2012, 12:28:08 PM12/29/12
to Sheeri Cabral, Rubén Martín
On 26/12/12 15:13, Sheeri Cabral wrote:
> My opinion is I would have rather the Facebook page's message have
> been about peace and love instead of presents and consumerism
Amen to that ;-)
> My opinion is I would have rather the Facebook page's message have
> been about peace and love instead of presents and consumerism
Gerv
Majken Connor
Jan 11, 2013, 3:10:10 PM1/11/13
to wrey...@mozilla.com, Daniel Glazman, mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, Gervase Markham
Hi William,
Can you and/or Carmen share a bit of information about why you choose the
messages you do? I personally would rather the media be used for more
direct messaging, like maybe a tip of the day on using Firefox, a
recommended add-on at a regular interval, but maybe you have data or
experience that shows more casual messages are effective?
Should we continue this discussion here or move to the marketing list?
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 3:11 PM, <wrey...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> There is lots of great discussion here. Thanks for all the feedback and
> for voicing your concerns.
>
> I've been managing our Firefox social media accounts for a couple years,
> and I helped write our posts, including our holiday-themed content.
>
> With our current process, me and Carmen, our content editor, write
> engaging content that our millions of Firefox fans will enjoy. This content
> should take into account our messaging priorities and always hold up to
> Mozilla's values. Once drafted, the content is then approved by our content
> team in User Engagement before it is posted.
>
> We try to be very careful about avoiding posting content related to
> personal viewpoints such as politics or religion. We do try to mention
> relevant holidays when we think our fans will enjoy the content.
>
> Some responses below.
>
> On Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Majken Connor wrote:
Can you and/or Carmen share a bit of information about why you choose the
messages you do? I personally would rather the media be used for more
direct messaging, like maybe a tip of the day on using Firefox, a
recommended add-on at a regular interval, but maybe you have data or
experience that shows more casual messages are effective?
Should we continue this discussion here or move to the marketing list?
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 3:11 PM, <wrey...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> There is lots of great discussion here. Thanks for all the feedback and
> for voicing your concerns.
>
> I've been managing our Firefox social media accounts for a couple years,
> and I helped write our posts, including our holiday-themed content.
>
> With our current process, me and Carmen, our content editor, write
> engaging content that our millions of Firefox fans will enjoy. This content
> should take into account our messaging priorities and always hold up to
> Mozilla's values. Once drafted, the content is then approved by our content
> team in User Engagement before it is posted.
>
> We try to be very careful about avoiding posting content related to
> personal viewpoints such as politics or religion. We do try to mention
> relevant holidays when we think our fans will enjoy the content.
>
> Some responses below.
>
> On Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Majken Connor wrote:
> > My point also wasn't to call out the fact that the reference was
> >
> > specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
> >
> > posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
> >
> > posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
> >
> > references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
> >
> > much as possible.
>
> >
> > specifically Christian. My point was that up until a point the holiday
> >
> > posts were broad and therefore more inclusive, then there were specific
> >
> > posts about only one celebration. On top of that it makes indirect
> >
> > references to religion though I do respect that it was being avoided as
> >
> > much as possible.
>
> We did try to avoid direct references for religion for reasons mentioned
> above. Most of our holiday posts are pretty broad. The specific ones about
> Christmas were published later in December as Christmas day approached and
> it was therefore more relevant.
>
> above. Most of our holiday posts are pretty broad. The specific ones about
> Christmas were published later in December as Christmas day approached and
> it was therefore more relevant.
>
> > The real issue I want to raise is that we have community guidelines about
> >
> > being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
> >
> > door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
> >
> > Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
> >
> > engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
> >
> > act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
> >
> > news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events
> to
> >
> > help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
>
> >
> > being inclusive that focus around leaving our personal differences at the
> >
> > door, eg religion, politics, culture, and coming together in forwarding
> >
> > Mozilla's values. This poses an interesting question, especially for
> >
> > engagement, in terms of how much we should follow that distinction as we
> >
> > act on behalf of Mozilla. Should Mozilla assets focus on Mozilla specific
> >
> > news and events, or should we use "off topic" cultural/political events
> to
> >
> > help raise our visibility? How do we do that right?
>
> This is a key question. I think it's okay to leverage non-Mozilla new and
> events when it's appropriate for users and is consistent with our values.
> Lots of international days and holidays are great opportunities. A few
> examples are Friendship Day, Thanksgiving (United States), and One Web Day.
>
> events when it's appropriate for users and is consistent with our values.
> Lots of international days and holidays are great opportunities. A few
> examples are Friendship Day, Thanksgiving (United States), and One Web Day.
>
> > The popcorn political ad maker during the US election is an interesting
> >
> > example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
> >
> > and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
> >
> > yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right
> track.
>
> >
> > example. It acknowledged a world event without taking a side in the event
> >
> > and directly promoted a Mozilla technology. In fact you made the ad about
> >
> > yourself, not about any real candidates. This feels more on the right
> track.
>
> I love this example, and I'd like to see us have more activities like this
> that we can feature on our channels.
> that we can feature on our channels.
ccol...@mozilla.com
Jan 24, 2013, 3:28:23 PM1/24/13
to wrey...@mozilla.com, Daniel Glazman, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, Gervase Markham
On Friday, January 11, 2013 3:10:10 PM UTC-5, Majken Connor wrote:
> Hi William,
>
>
>
> Can you and/or Carmen share a bit of information about why you choose the
>
> messages you do? I personally would rather the media be used for more
>
> direct messaging, like maybe a tip of the day on using Firefox, a
>
> recommended add-on at a regular interval, but maybe you have data or
>
> experience that shows more casual messages are effective?
Hi Majken! Thanks for raising the question. Anyone can always contact me about content questions directly, if you'd like.
> Hi William,
>
>
>
> Can you and/or Carmen share a bit of information about why you choose the
>
> messages you do? I personally would rather the media be used for more
>
> direct messaging, like maybe a tip of the day on using Firefox, a
>
> recommended add-on at a regular interval, but maybe you have data or
>
> experience that shows more casual messages are effective?
There's not an easy answer to your question. Social media is a tricky marketing medium, which exists to create engagement with our fans. What posts create engagement? That changes almost weekly, it really is a game, and we play it with marketing insights and data.
With 13 million fans (and growing) we are never going to please everyone all of the time. We have to cast the widest net to get the most engagement, which we try our best to do in the appropriate ways (avoiding religious references, for example). We also target our posts as much as Facebook allows, some to US only for those references, others to language.
We also work with localizers to help keep our content in check. They sometimes advise if something doesn't work for their locale.
We often post about add-ons, or tips (which as a side note, underperform each time.) We follow social media best practices that work for other companies. We have developed our own best practices over the last few years to know what works and what doesn't.
It's also worth noting that Facebook's algorithm, Edgerank, punishes us when we post things that people don't engage with. If the algorithm suspects that we post things that people aren't interested in, they will show our posts to fewer and fewer people. So essentially, we are speaking to the largest common denominator. We post more of what people tell us they like (with their likes, comments and shares.)
There are so many other aspects that go into social media marketing that I won't bore everyone with here. It won't ever be perfect, it's one of the hardest mediums to conquer (and only a few do it super well - and they have staff over over 50 to do it!)
We are always open to suggestions, and my email box, while full, is always there. :) Though sometimes, we have to rely on our expertise and experience to make those decisions, which also may not make everyone excited. It's a give and take, I know. I wish I had the magic social wand. :)
I have noted your points - one thing that makes social great is we're always learning.
I think we can take it off this list - if you'd like, and work on more direct communications through email.
Hope that helps,
Carmen
ccol...@mozilla.com
Jan 24, 2013, 3:28:23 PM1/24/13
to mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, Daniel Glazman, Gervase Markham, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org, wrey...@mozilla.com
On Friday, January 11, 2013 3:10:10 PM UTC-5, Majken Connor wrote:
> Hi William,
>
>
>
> Can you and/or Carmen share a bit of information about why you choose the
>
> messages you do? I personally would rather the media be used for more
>
> direct messaging, like maybe a tip of the day on using Firefox, a
>
> recommended add-on at a regular interval, but maybe you have data or
>
> experience that shows more casual messages are effective?
>
>
>
> Can you and/or Carmen share a bit of information about why you choose the
>
> messages you do? I personally would rather the media be used for more
>
> direct messaging, like maybe a tip of the day on using Firefox, a
>
> recommended add-on at a regular interval, but maybe you have data or
>
> experience that shows more casual messages are effective?
Hi Majken! Thanks for raising the question. Anyone can always contact me about content questions directly, if you'd like.
There's not an easy answer to your question. Social media is a tricky marketing medium, which exists to create engagement with our fans. What posts create engagement? That changes almost weekly, it really is a game, and we play it with marketing insights and data.
With 13 million fans (and growing) we are never going to please everyone all of the time. We have to cast the widest net to get the most engagement, which we try our best to do in the appropriate ways (avoiding religious references, for example). We also target our posts as much as Facebook allows, some to US only for those references, others to language.
We also work with localizers to help keep our content in check. They sometimes advise if something doesn't work for their locale.
We often post about add-ons, or tips (which as a side note, underperform each time.) We follow social media best practices that work for other companies. We have developed our own best practices over the last few years to know what works and what doesn't.
It's also worth noting that Facebook's algorithm, Edgerank, punishes us when we post things that people don't engage with. If the algorithm suspects that we post things that people aren't interested in, they will show our posts to fewer and fewer people. So essentially, we are speaking to the largest common denominator. We post more of what people tell us they like (with their likes, comments and shares.)
There are so many other aspects that go into social media marketing that I won't bore everyone with here. It won't ever be perfect, it's one of the hardest mediums to conquer (and only a few do it super well - and they have staff over over 50 to do it!)
We are always open to suggestions, and my email box, while full, is always there. :) Though sometimes, we have to rely on our expertise and experience to make those decisions, which also may not make everyone excited. It's a give and take, I know. I wish I had the magic social wand. :)
I have noted your points - one thing that makes social great is we're always learning.
I think we can take it off this list - if you'd like, and work on more direct communications through email.
Hope that helps,
Carmen
>
>
>
There's not an easy answer to your question. Social media is a tricky marketing medium, which exists to create engagement with our fans. What posts create engagement? That changes almost weekly, it really is a game, and we play it with marketing insights and data.
With 13 million fans (and growing) we are never going to please everyone all of the time. We have to cast the widest net to get the most engagement, which we try our best to do in the appropriate ways (avoiding religious references, for example). We also target our posts as much as Facebook allows, some to US only for those references, others to language.
We also work with localizers to help keep our content in check. They sometimes advise if something doesn't work for their locale.
We often post about add-ons, or tips (which as a side note, underperform each time.) We follow social media best practices that work for other companies. We have developed our own best practices over the last few years to know what works and what doesn't.
It's also worth noting that Facebook's algorithm, Edgerank, punishes us when we post things that people don't engage with. If the algorithm suspects that we post things that people aren't interested in, they will show our posts to fewer and fewer people. So essentially, we are speaking to the largest common denominator. We post more of what people tell us they like (with their likes, comments and shares.)
There are so many other aspects that go into social media marketing that I won't bore everyone with here. It won't ever be perfect, it's one of the hardest mediums to conquer (and only a few do it super well - and they have staff over over 50 to do it!)
We are always open to suggestions, and my email box, while full, is always there. :) Though sometimes, we have to rely on our expertise and experience to make those decisions, which also may not make everyone excited. It's a give and take, I know. I wish I had the magic social wand. :)
I have noted your points - one thing that makes social great is we're always learning.
I think we can take it off this list - if you'd like, and work on more direct communications through email.
Hope that helps,
Carmen
>
>
>
Majken Connor
Jan 24, 2013, 5:30:24 PM1/24/13
to ccol...@mozilla.com, Daniel Glazman, mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, wrey...@mozilla.com, Gervase Markham, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
Carmen,
If you don't object can we continue this on the marketing list? I find this
fascinating and I'm sure lots of other people would as well (especially
those subscribed to the marketing list) as well as helpful for our efforts
in promoting our local communities.
If you don't object can we continue this on the marketing list? I find this
fascinating and I'm sure lots of other people would as well (especially
those subscribed to the marketing list) as well as helpful for our efforts
in promoting our local communities.
Carmen Collins
Jan 25, 2013, 8:20:22 AM1/25/13
to Majken Connor, Daniel Glazman, mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, wrey...@mozilla.com, Gervase Markham, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi Majken,
I'm okay if we continue the discussion as a learning tool. :) I can give
insights on why we do things, but I want to make sure it doesn't become
an all out attack on our methodology. ;)
C
On 1/24/13 5:30 PM, Majken Connor wrote:
> Carmen,
>
> If you don't object can we continue this on the marketing list? I find
> this fascinating and I'm sure lots of other people would as well
> (especially those subscribed to the marketing list) as well as helpful
> for our efforts in promoting our local communities.
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:28 PM, <ccol...@mozilla.com
> > > gover...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:gover...@lists.mozilla.org>
> >
> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
> >
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:gover...@lists.mozilla.org>
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
>
>
I'm okay if we continue the discussion as a learning tool. :) I can give
insights on why we do things, but I want to make sure it doesn't become
an all out attack on our methodology. ;)
C
On 1/24/13 5:30 PM, Majken Connor wrote:
> Carmen,
>
> If you don't object can we continue this on the marketing list? I find
> this fascinating and I'm sure lots of other people would as well
> (especially those subscribed to the marketing list) as well as helpful
> for our efforts in promoting our local communities.
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:28 PM, <ccol...@mozilla.com
> >
> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
> >
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
> governance mailing list
> gover...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:gover...@lists.mozilla.org>
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
>
>
Majken Connor
Jan 25, 2013, 12:15:36 PM1/25/13
to Carmen Collins, Daniel Glazman, mozilla.g...@googlegroups.com, wrey...@mozilla.com, Gervase Markham, mozilla-g...@lists.mozilla.org
I definitely understand the drawbacks of an all out attack, but at the same
time I think if there is enough disagreement then the community should have
a chance to voice it. I think we're reasonable people, and anyone who isn't
will be ignored by all sides. If your methodology is correct it will be
easy to show that. If it's not then open discussion should help improve it.
If nothing else I can promise to help try and keep the discussion
constructive and respectful. We can disagree and still be nice to each
other!
A general aside, not directed at you Carmen: Mozilla prides itself on
openness. If there are negative consequences there has to be a different
solution than taking things behind closed doors. We're all here to support
each other and show the world that Mozilla's values, especially openness
can and does work best.
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Carmen Collins <ccol...@mozilla.com>wrote:
> Hi Majken,
>
> I'm okay if we continue the discussion as a learning tool. :) I can give
> insights on why we do things, but I want to make sure it doesn't become an
> all out attack on our methodology. ;)
>
> C
>
>
> On 1/24/13 5:30 PM, Majken Connor wrote:
>
> Carmen,
>
> If you don't object can we continue this on the marketing list? I find
> this fascinating and I'm sure lots of other people would as well
> (especially those subscribed to the marketing list) as well as helpful for
> our efforts in promoting our local communities.
>
time I think if there is enough disagreement then the community should have
a chance to voice it. I think we're reasonable people, and anyone who isn't
will be ignored by all sides. If your methodology is correct it will be
easy to show that. If it's not then open discussion should help improve it.
If nothing else I can promise to help try and keep the discussion
constructive and respectful. We can disagree and still be nice to each
other!
A general aside, not directed at you Carmen: Mozilla prides itself on
openness. If there are negative consequences there has to be a different
solution than taking things behind closed doors. We're all here to support
each other and show the world that Mozilla's values, especially openness
can and does work best.
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Carmen Collins <ccol...@mozilla.com>wrote:
> Hi Majken,
>
> I'm okay if we continue the discussion as a learning tool. :) I can give
> insights on why we do things, but I want to make sure it doesn't become an
> all out attack on our methodology. ;)
>
> C
>
>
> On 1/24/13 5:30 PM, Majken Connor wrote:
>
> Carmen,
>
> If you don't object can we continue this on the marketing list? I find
> this fascinating and I'm sure lots of other people would as well
> (especially those subscribed to the marketing list) as well as helpful for
> our efforts in promoting our local communities.
>
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