Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 09-11-23 6:05 PM, Terry R. wrote:
>> On 11/23/2009 2:19 PM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> On 11/23/2009 4:04 PM, Terry R. wrote:
>>>> On 11/23/2009 12:28 PM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the
>>>> keyboard
>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone read this article?
>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10396076-64.html?tag=nl.e703
>>>>>
>>>>> The writer seems to imply that Firefox will burn up the CPU in your
>>>>> laptop/netbook.
>>>>> I can say that I run my netbook (Dell Mini 10) for several hours every
>>>>> single day with Firefox, and one or two other applications active, and
>>>>> there is no temperature difference noticed at any time, and I monitor
>>>>> CPU usage constantly, and have NOT seen the symptoms mentioned in the
>>>>> article. It might be because I don't allow much Flash to run, but
>>>>> is it
>>>>> really fair to bash Firefox because Flash consumes CPU cycles?
>>>>>
>>>>> I really HATE this type of misleading article.
>>>> Why is it misleading? If a moz support person "suggests" Safari is
>>>> possibly better at optimizing Flash-based sites compared to Firefox
>>>> (30-60% for FF, 2-10% for Safari), it would appear the issue IS with
>>>> FF,
>>>> and not Flash.
>>>>
>>>> I think the comments are pretty telling also. If anything, FF isn't the
>>>> golden calf you think it is...
>>>>
>>>> I have an older laptop that has always had heat issues. The original
>>>> owner went through 2 hard drives that failed due to heat. They gave it
>>>> to me and I installed a 7,200 rpm drive (which runs hotter). I always
>>>> notice that whenever I open FF and do some work, the fan kicks on high.
>>>> Working on other apps doesn't have the same effect though. There may be
>>>> more to this than meets the eye.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry R.
>>> A properly designed computer should be able to run the CPU at 100%
>>> indefinitely without overheating. I am more concerned with the implied
>>> message than the specific facts, even though those definitely DON'T
>>> match with my experience, first with an HP laptop, and now with a Dell
>>> netbook. I suspect other factors may be at work here, especially since
>>> my observations of CPU usage don't seem to match those in the article.
>>>
>>
>> I don't believe a "properly designed" one can run 100% indefinitely. A
>> "specially designed" one to focus on heat, possibly.
>>
>> You don't experience it, and it appears I do. The "implied message"
>> relates to my experience on a laptop (as the light went on after reading
>> it).
>
> Guys, if this is just a continuation of your debate in mozilla.general,
> then take it to mozilla.general.
>
Looks like an issue of Firefox's known CPU issues that can cause
overheating. As long as this thread is on that topic then why split or
move it? Of course if the debate moves to just CPU overheating then
sure, continue it in .general.
--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
Terry R.
Does it look like it? This is specific to FF.
Terry R.
--
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete NOSPAM from the email address after clicking Reply.
Terry R.
I reposted this where it belongs, IN FIREFOX SUPPORT. Chris is out of
line...
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Well, he did say "if" .. 8-)
»Q«
"Terry R." <Terry...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/23/2009 3:11 PM On a whim, Chris Ilias pounded out on the
> keyboard
>
> > Guys, if this is just a continuation of your debate in
> > mozilla.general, then take it to mozilla.general.
>
> Chris,
>
> Far from it.
>
> That was a cheap trick changing the newsgroup to general when it
> doesn't warrant it.
>
> Please don't change the newsgroup just because you think it belongs
> there. This is specific to FF and should stay here, regardless of
> what you think.
Chris' post wasn't a Fx support post, so he set followup to m.general.
That was in no way a "cheap trick", since replies to Chris' post
weren't likely to have any Fx support either.
Your reply to Chris' post wasn't a Fx support post, yet you ignored the
followup-to header and posted it to m.s.firefox.
If there's actual Fx support content in the thread, those parts of it
should stay in the support group, and Chris didn't redirect any Fx
support here to m.general.
--
»Q« /"\
ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ /
against html e-mail X
<http://asciiribbon.org/> / \
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Whilst I agree in principle, a followup should not have been set. But ..
the statement disagreeing should have been allowed to stay in the group
where it was posted. Any "further argument" is what should be set to
.general .. IMHO of course. The way I see it is that Terry has the right
to disagree in the original thread but he should be the one to set any
further discussion to .general.
Dennis
AND I would really like to see all followup setting posts duly note in
the post itself that the followup is being set. Then there is absolutely
no question of intent.
--
Dennis
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Yes, definitely a courtesy to say the least!!
Terry R.
Correct. Since CI made no mention he was setting a fu, I posted and
found it here. Only then did I repost. I didn't "ignore" it as that
one suggested.
Terry R.
THAT is what pissed me off about his post more than anything (other than
he said anything at all).
Ron Hunter
heuristics. Grin.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
<sticking head just a little above the foxhole>
1. Chris's post was valid
2. A followup should not even have been set
3. Your ignoring the followup was justified
4. Your response was justified
5. It was/is your responsibility to set a followup in your reply in case
further discussion was warranted in .general
6. "Q"'s post in defense of Chris and bashing you was not warranted
although he has the right to express an opinion.
All this could have been avoided had Chris:
1. Not set a followup to begin with.
and more importantly
2. IF the followup had been set to note it in the text - common
courtesy, you had/have the right to disagree IN the thread.
<head back under cover> :-D
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
May be true but when setting a followup, it should be duly noted as
such. While Chris' post was valid, a followup should not have been set.
It is the responsibility of ANYone responding to the post to set the
followup because, as we all know, heated discussion is bound to follow.
The argument can be made that anyone responding to that post should see
that the followup has been set but that is not an excuse for not noting
it in the body of the message.
Daddy
> On 11/25/2009 7:21 AM On a whim, John McGaw pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> Terry R. wrote:
>>> On 11/23/2009 2:19 PM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2009 4:04 PM, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>> keyboard
>>>>>
>>
>> I guess I must be a "perfect designer" because every one of my homemade
>> computers from this antique Pentium 4 Shuttle SFF to my current newest
>> Q6600 HTPC run at 100% CPU usage 24 X 7 with no problems (four in
>> all). The
>> machines are running the BOINC client with World Community Grid; despite
>> this I've never had a heat-related problem with any of them and that is
>> saying something since the P4 Shuttles had marginal cooling and the
>> HTPC is
>> a super-low-profile Antec case with space for no sort of special cooling.
>>
>> I don't abuse my notebook in this way but it has not shown any detectable
>> heat changes even running FF with 26 tabs open as is my normal habit. The
>> CPU usage figures on the note book do not come close to hitting those
>> noted
>> in the article and I suspect that something totally different is going
>> on.
>> I suspect that, based on the original article, that nobody is
>> experiencing
>> thermal shutdowns which would be a sure symptom of a truly overheated
>> computer.
>
> No one said "perfect". I build all mine also, since that's what I do. I
> have to doubt your machines are running 100% all the time.
>
> So your notebook doesn't, and mine does. That would lend you not to
> believe it and I have to give it some merit.
>
> And do machines really have to experience a "thermal shutdown" in order
> for Mozilla to take notice?
>
> follow-up set to mozilla.general
>
> Terry R.
I'm late to this party, I know. See, I always thought that thermal
shutdown was caused by overheating, not software. I mean, you could be
playing Microsoft Hearts...if there's too much dust inside your case,
you're gonna have thermal shutdown.
I can tell you that Microsoft Hearts causes /me/ to have thermal
shutdown. But I digress.
Daddy
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
When you click on reply, do you see that the followup has been set to
another group? This of course doesn't negate the fact that a note should
be made in the post or that a f'up shouldn't have been set in the first
place. Sometimes we get so annoyed and irritated we don't see the f'up
set. :-D
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
There are a lot of "IF's" involved here. Yes, software can indeed cause
thermal shutdown if the CPU continues to run at 100% for long period. Of
course, if you have proper ventilation and a clean case, it shouldn't
happen. My CPU fan causes a small hurricane inside. :-D
»Q«
Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
> 6. "Q"'s post in defense of Chris and bashing you was not warranted
Your false claim that I bashed Terry in this thread is ludicrous
flamebait, Jay.
»Q«
Daddy <da...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I'm late to this party, I know. See, I always thought that thermal
> shutdown was caused by overheating, not software. I mean, you could
> be playing Microsoft Hearts...if there's too much dust inside your
> case, you're gonna have thermal shutdown.
Don't all modern CPUs throttle themselves rather than shut down?
But the "overheating problems" that started the thread were in a thin
Mac laptop, and thermal shutdown wasn't specified. For all we know,
the blogger was just saying that it became uncomfortable to have his
computer in his lap after it had been running Firefox. (That's all
that happens when my laptop's CPUs run at 100% for a while.)
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> In <news:YZudncuCQP4hw5DW...@mozilla.org>,
> Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> 6. "Q"'s post in defense of Chris and bashing you was not warranted
>
> Your false claim that I bashed Terry in this thread is ludicrous
> flamebait, Jay.
>
Your reply to Terry:
------------------------------------------------------------
Chris' post wasn't a Fx support post, so he set followup to m.general.
That was in no way a "cheap trick", since replies to Chris' post
weren't likely to have any Fx support either.
Your reply to Chris' post wasn't a Fx support post, yet you ignored the
followup-to header and posted it to m.s.firefox.
If there's actual Fx support content in the thread, those parts of it
should stay in the support group, and Chris didn't redirect any Fx
support here to m.general.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Whatever you want to call it, it's not a false claim. I call it
"bashing", what do you call it, educational rhetoric?? Not flamebait
either unless YOU want to add some more fuel.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> In <news:TvSdnWtMUodP_pDW...@mozilla.org>,
> Daddy <da...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I'm late to this party, I know. See, I always thought that thermal
>> shutdown was caused by overheating, not software. I mean, you could
>> be playing Microsoft Hearts...if there's too much dust inside your
>> case, you're gonna have thermal shutdown.
>
> Don't all modern CPUs throttle themselves rather than shut down?
Yes, to some degree. The CPU will sense what application you're running
and throttle itself down by a preset percentage rather than run full
bore when it's not necessary to do so. Only when full power is needed,
say in a 3D graphics application does the CPU throttle up to meet the
demand. I don't see Firefox as an application that needs to be run at
full bore even in light of it's memory useage problems and open tabs. On
my m'board for instance, the CPU will throttle down and the cooling fan
will automatically turn less RPM's thereby still running cool and quiet.
I can <user>set upper limits for CPU temperature and an alarm will go
off if reached. If the upper limit is breached by a certain preset
overage, the m'board will automatically shut off. So far this has never
happened.
> But the "overheating problems" that started the thread were in a thin
> Mac laptop, and thermal shutdown wasn't specified. For all we know,
> the blogger was just saying that it became uncomfortable to have his
> computer in his lap after it had been running Firefox. (That's all
> that happens when my laptop's CPUs run at 100% for a while.)
>
Laptops are far more susceptible to overheating problems simply because
they don't have the capability to physically house large cooling fans,
etc. And laptops don't have to be running Firefox to "feel"
uncomfortable in your "lap". Some can even be idling and feel rather
warm because the vent is on the bottom in most cases, is here.
Ron Hunter
vents in various ways. Things like that can cause overheating problems
when the CPU is under heavy loads. A fan could also have failed, which
isn't very obvious to the user. Surely if FF running a lot of stuff can
cause the problem, other programs would also cause 100% CPU utilization,
and cause the same problem. I don't think the article is quite fair.
Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter
> Daddy<da...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I'm late to this party, I know. See, I always thought that thermal
>> shutdown was caused by overheating, not software. I mean, you could
>> be playing Microsoft Hearts...if there's too much dust inside your
>> case, you're gonna have thermal shutdown.
>
> Don't all modern CPUs throttle themselves rather than shut down?
>
> But the "overheating problems" that started the thread were in a thin
> Mac laptop, and thermal shutdown wasn't specified. For all we know,
> the blogger was just saying that it became uncomfortable to have his
> computer in his lap after it had been running Firefox. (That's all
> that happens when my laptop's CPUs run at 100% for a while.)
>
Lapinator. It insulates the legs from the computer, and I bought some
legs for the laptop that raised it about 1/2 inch so that it could get
more air flow under the laptop.
Daniel
Why are people worried about any program sucking up 100% CPU utilization??
O.K., if you are actively using (not just running but actively using)
two or more programs at the same time, then having one program getting
all the action might be a bit of a problem (for a short time), but why
do people want to have uProcessors with GHz of speed, just so it can sit
around doing nothing for most of its life??
Might as well switch back to MHz uProcessors!!
Daniel
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Did the same here by adding legs, works like a charm.
Terry R.
>>>
>>> Whilst I agree in principle, a followup should not have been set. But ..
>>> the statement disagreeing should have been allowed to stay in the group
>>> where it was posted. Any "further argument" is what should be set to
>>> .general .. IMHO of course. The way I see it is that Terry has the right
>>> to disagree in the original thread but he should be the one to set any
>>> further discussion to .general.
>>>
>> Correct. Since CI made no mention he was setting a fu, I posted and
>> found it here. Only then did I repost. I didn't "ignore" it as that
>> one suggested.
>>
>>
>> Terry R.
>
> When you click on reply, do you see that the followup has been set to
> another group? This of course doesn't negate the fact that a note should
> be made in the post or that a f'up shouldn't have been set in the first
> place. Sometimes we get so annoyed and irritated we don't see the f'up
> set. :-D
>
>
I usually don't look to be honest. And that's why I agreed with you.
ANYONE posting a follow-up should state so. CI went one step further and
removed the original group from being posted. So he screwed up twice IMO.
Tarkus
> O.K., if you are actively using (not just running but actively using)
> two or more programs at the same time, then having one program getting
> all the action might be a bit of a problem (for a short time), but why
> do people want to have uProcessors with GHz of speed, just so it can sit
> around doing nothing for most of its life??
Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
drive that fast?
The reason for wanting a fast CPU, is so the speed is there when you
NEED it, not that you want to keep it maxed out all the time.
That goes for pretty much any electronics. You wouldn't want to have
your 2000 watt stereo cranked up all the way 24/7, even if someone else
was paying your electric bills.
Even if your computer doesn't overheat, I would imagine having its CPU
maxed out most of the time would shorten its life.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
I don't archive posts but somehow I remember he usually posts that he is
setting the followup .. dunno.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
> drive that fast?
Outrun the cops!! :-D
Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn, I was
doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen passed me
like I was standing still.
Ron Hunter
> Daniel wrote:
>> O.K., if you are actively using (not just running but actively using)
>> two or more programs at the same time, then having one program getting
>> all the action might be a bit of a problem (for a short time), but why
>> do people want to have uProcessors with GHz of speed, just so it can
>> sit around doing nothing for most of its life??
>
> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
> drive that fast?
>
Good question. My car is 6 years old. I have driven it up to 85 on the
Oklahoma Turnpike (to keep from being overrun at 80 which is the speed
limit). Don't know how much faster it might go. Don't care. My
reflexes aren't up to more speed.
> The reason for wanting a fast CPU, is so the speed is there when you
> NEED it, not that you want to keep it maxed out all the time.
>
Sure, but it isn't like it HAS to run slow all the time. Mine actually
throttles back the speed of the processor to save energy (and heat) when
the demands are light.
> That goes for pretty much any electronics. You wouldn't want to have
> your 2000 watt stereo cranked up all the way 24/7, even if someone else
> was paying your electric bills.
>
And you lived 10 miles from the nearest neighbor! Grin.
> Even if your computer doesn't overheat, I would imagine having its CPU
> maxed out most of the time would shorten its life.
Not if the temperature is well-controlled. Might shorten the life of
the CPU cooling fan, though.
Ron Hunter
> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
>> drive that fast?
>
> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>
> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn, I was
> doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen passed me
> like I was standing still.
>
pass you! Amazing!
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 11/26/2009 9:39 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
>>> drive that fast?
>>
>> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>>
>> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn, I was
>> doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen passed me
>> like I was standing still.
>>
> It doesn't matter HOW FAST you are driving on the Autobahn, SOMEONE will
> pass you! Amazing!
>
As long as the sign displays \\\ you're good to go!! A blip in the
rearview mirror in the left lane suddenly becomes a blip far ahead of
you in a matter of seconds.
Tarkus
> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
>> drive that fast?
>
> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>
> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn, I was
> doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen passed me
> like I was standing still.
Man, I'd love to drive the Autobahn at some point in my life. Fastest
I've ever driven was about 130 MPH in a '69 Camaro, and it started
shaking, because the road wasn't designed for that speed, and I was
pretty much scared to death. ;)
Tarkus
I was speaking of the computer in general, not just the CPU. If you're
constantly pushing electronics - even the power supply - to their
limits, that can't be good for their life expectancy.
At least anecdotally. ;)
Dennis
> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
>> drive that fast?
>
> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>
> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn, I was
> doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen passed me
> like I was standing still.
>
150mph or 150kph?
What were you driving at 150mph?
--
Dennis
Ron Hunter
Switzerland, and his Audi was rolling along happily at 160kph and a
Volkswagon Beetle came roaring past us. Suspect something other than a
stock engine!
»Q«
Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
> On 25.11.2009 20:39, »Q« wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
> > In <news:TvSdnWtMUodP_pDW...@mozilla.org>,
> > Daddy <da...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm late to this party, I know. See, I always thought that thermal
> >> shutdown was caused by overheating, not software. I mean, you could
> >> be playing Microsoft Hearts...if there's too much dust inside your
> >> case, you're gonna have thermal shutdown.
> >
> > Don't all modern CPUs throttle themselves rather than shut down?
>
> Yes, to some degree. The CPU will sense what application you're
> running and throttle itself down by a preset percentage rather than
> run full bore when it's not necessary to do so. Only when full power
> is needed, say in a 3D graphics application does the CPU throttle up
> to meet the demand. I don't see Firefox as an application that needs
> to be run at full bore even in light of it's memory useage problems
> and open tabs.
That kind of frequency regulation is usually done by software and
depends only on load.
> On my m'board for instance, the CPU will throttle down
> and the cooling fan will automatically turn less RPM's thereby still
> running cool and quiet. I can <user>set upper limits for CPU
> temperature and an alarm will go off if reached. If the upper limit
> is breached by a certain preset overage, the m'board will
> automatically shut off. So far this has never happened.
It sounds like you're talking about motherboard features. I meant the
built-into-the chip CPU temp limits. Intel's chips have had them since
at least the Pentium 4, and I assume all AMD chips have them since
around that time.
> > But the "overheating problems" that started the thread were in a
> > thin Mac laptop, and thermal shutdown wasn't specified. For all we
> > know, the blogger was just saying that it became uncomfortable to
> > have his computer in his lap after it had been running Firefox.
> > (That's all that happens when my laptop's CPUs run at 100% for a
> > while.)
>
> Laptops are far more susceptible to overheating problems simply
> because they don't have the capability to physically house large
> cooling fans, etc.
If I got a laptop that throttled itself or shut down due to overheating
when running at 100% for a few hours (without me doing something dumb
like blocking the air vents), I'd return it as defective immediately.
From various people's posts, it sounds like manufacturers are getting
away with producing laptops which can't actually operate at the
advertised specs.
> And laptops don't have to be running Firefox to "feel" uncomfortable
> in your "lap". Some can even be idling and feel rather warm because
> the vent is on the bottom in most cases, is here.
I've got vents on the bottom, but the heat blows out the side.
Dennis
Fastest I have ever been was on a 2007 Goldwing. 130+(mph) (? not real
sure, I quit looking at the speedometer at 130 then went slightly
faster) and it was still climbing. On a highway in the northern half of
the lower peninsula of Michigan, in an area know for its deer and elk
population.
I wasn't scared, I was just stupid!!
There is nothing quite like high speed on two wheels.
A buddy of mine back in MIchigan bought one of the 2007 Kawasaki
Ninja's, (the first one in Michigan actually, or so he claims anyway).
He took it up to 173mph, with his girlfriend on behind!!!! Now that *IS*
crazy!!!!
--
Dennis
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if ever,
>>> drive that fast?
>>
>> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>>
>> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn, I was
>> doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen passed me
>> like I was standing still.
>>
>
> 150mph or 150kph?
>
> What were you driving at 150mph?
>
12-cyl Mercedes S-600
Dennis
Fastest I have ever been was on a 2007 Goldwing. 130+(mph) (? not real
Terry R.
No, he only said, "Guys, if this is just a continuation of your debate
in mozilla.general, then take it to mozilla.general." He didn't state
HE was changing anything.
Terry R.
We bought a new 1983 BMW 733i with a 5 speed manual. I took it past 140
mph one time, as it had VR rated Pirelli's. It was amazing at how well
it handled. But that was the first and last time. Of course there were
many times on the open roads on the way to CO that I cruised at 100+.
Just have to be REAL careful in Utah. They're sneaky.
Dennis
Hmmm, this post didn't show up so I re-posted 2 hours and 40 minutes
later. Now they are both showing!!!
Duplicate post was unintentional.
--
Dennis
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
I wasn't referring to THAT post. What I said/meant was that I "thought"
that he usually does make a note in the post the he is setting the f'up.
Part of your problem, IMHO, is that you gloss over a paragraph and miss
half of it. Sorry .. :-(
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> In <news:49SdnSelwrsVlpPW...@mozilla.org>,
> Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> On 25.11.2009 20:39, »Q« wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>> > In <news:TvSdnWtMUodP_pDW...@mozilla.org>,
>> > Daddy <da...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm late to this party, I know. See, I always thought that thermal
>> >> shutdown was caused by overheating, not software. I mean, you could
>> >> be playing Microsoft Hearts...if there's too much dust inside your
>> >> case, you're gonna have thermal shutdown.
>> >
>> > Don't all modern CPUs throttle themselves rather than shut down?
>>
>> Yes, to some degree. The CPU will sense what application you're
>> running and throttle itself down by a preset percentage rather than
>> run full bore when it's not necessary to do so. Only when full power
>> is needed, say in a 3D graphics application does the CPU throttle up
>> to meet the demand. I don't see Firefox as an application that needs
>> to be run at full bore even in light of it's memory useage problems
>> and open tabs.
>
> That kind of frequency regulation is usually done by software and
> depends only on load.
That's what was said in that paragraph. ... "The CPU will sense ..." :-)
>> On my m'board for instance, the CPU will throttle down
>> and the cooling fan will automatically turn less RPM's thereby still
>> running cool and quiet. I can <user>set upper limits for CPU
>> temperature and an alarm will go off if reached. If the upper limit
>> is breached by a certain preset overage, the m'board will
>> automatically shut off. So far this has never happened.
>
> It sounds like you're talking about motherboard features. I meant the
> built-into-the chip CPU temp limits. Intel's chips have had them since
> at least the Pentium 4, and I assume all AMD chips have them since
> around that time.
Yes, in conjunction with the CPU. I was running an AMD previously and it
had a tendency to run "hot" whereas the Intel I'm running now runs
anywhere from 5 to 10 degrees cooler under the same (as best as can be
determined) conditions. I'm speaking of CPU temp which I "can" measure
quite accurately with this M'board.
>> > But the "overheating problems" that started the thread were in a
>> > thin Mac laptop, and thermal shutdown wasn't specified. For all we
>> > know, the blogger was just saying that it became uncomfortable to
>> > have his computer in his lap after it had been running Firefox.
>> > (That's all that happens when my laptop's CPUs run at 100% for a
>> > while.)
>>
>> Laptops are far more susceptible to overheating problems simply
>> because they don't have the capability to physically house large
>> cooling fans, etc.
>
> If I got a laptop that throttled itself or shut down due to overheating
> when running at 100% for a few hours (without me doing something dumb
> like blocking the air vents), I'd return it as defective immediately.
> From various people's posts, it sounds like manufacturers are getting
> away with producing laptops which can't actually operate at the
> advertised specs.
Sure thing.
>> And laptops don't have to be running Firefox to "feel" uncomfortable
>> in your "lap". Some can even be idling and feel rather warm because
>> the vent is on the bottom in most cases, is here.
>
> I've got vents on the bottom, but the heat blows out the side.
Lenovo with the IBM label, the last one in that series right after the
transition. Vents on the bottom only. I can run my video
conversion/editing applications with video imported from my HD Camcorder
w/o any noticeable heating problems.
Ken Whiton
*-* In Article <Qu2dnY68W-7tYZLW...@mozilla.org>,
*-* Jay Garcia wrote
*-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
> On 27.11.2009 03:15, Ron Hunter wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 11/26/2009 9:39 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>>>
>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if
>>>> ever, drive that fast?
>
>>> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>>>
>>> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn, I
>>> was doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen
>>> passed me like I was standing still.
>
>> It doesn't matter HOW FAST you are driving on the Autobahn, SOMEONE
>> will pass you! Amazing!
Been there, done that, ... over 40 years ago.
> As long as the sign displays \\\ you're good to go!! A blip in the
> rearview mirror in the left lane suddenly becomes a blip far ahead
> of you in a matter of seconds.
And if you happen to be driving in the left lane, that
far-distant flash of headlights in the rearview mirror quickly becomes
a looming presence in that same mirror if you don't move over in a
hurry. ;-)
Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: kenw...@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)
Ken Whiton
*-* In Article <tpWdnRucY5A8Po3W...@mozilla.org>,
*-* Dennis wrote
*-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
> Dennis wrote:
>> Tarkus wrote:
>>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>
>>>>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if
>>>>> ever, drive that fast?
>
>>>> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn,
>>>> I was doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen
>>>> passed me like I was standing still.
Probably a Porsche in Volkswagen's clothing. ;-)
>>> Man, I'd love to drive the Autobahn at some point in my life.
>>> Fastest I've ever driven was about 130 MPH in a '69 Camaro, and it
>>> started shaking, because the road wasn't designed for that speed,
>>> and I was pretty much scared to death. ;)
>
>> Fastest I have ever been was on a 2007 Goldwing. 130+(mph) (? not
>> real sure, I quit looking at the speedometer at 130 then went
>> slightly faster) and it was still climbing. On a highway in the
>> northern half of the lower peninsula of Michigan, in an area know
>> for its deer and elk population.
That's asking for trouble!! ;-)
>> I wasn't scared, I was just stupid!!
>>
>> There is nothing quite like high speed on two wheels.
>>
>> A buddy of mine back in MIchigan bought one of the 2007 Kawasaki
>> Ninja's, (the first one in Michigan actually, or so he claims
>> anyway). He took it up to 173mph, with his girlfriend on behind!!!!
>> Now that *IS* crazy!!!!
>
> Hmmm, this post didn't show up so I re-posted 2 hours and 40 minutes
> later. Now they are both showing!!!
It appears to be a server problem. If you look at the sources of
the two posts you'll see that they both show "NNTP-Posting-Date:"
headers consistent with your message dates, yet their "Xref:" numbers
are in reverse order to those dates. I noticed several similar
discrepancies between posting dates and order received ("Xref:"
numbers) on this server Wednesday. Things seemed to be back to normal
Thursday, but appear to be out of sync again on Friday.
> Duplicate post was unintentional.
Since it appears to be the result of a server problem you're
forgiven. :-D
Ron Hunter
> *-* On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, at 23:14:25 -0500,
> *-* In Article<tpWdnRucY5A8Po3W...@mozilla.org>,
> *-* Dennis wrote
> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>
>> Dennis wrote:
>>> Tarkus wrote:
>>>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>> On 26.11.2009 21:12, Tarkus wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why have a car that can drive 100 MPH, when you'll rarely, if
>>>>>> ever, drive that fast?
>>
>>>>> Outrun the cops!! :-D
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking of outrunning the cops, last time I drove the Autobahn,
>>>>> I was doing over 150mph and a Volkspolizei in a dadgum Volkswagen
>>>>> passed me like I was standing still.
>
> Probably a Porsche in Volkswagen's clothing. ;-)
>
mountains, and was still maintaining his momentum...
Phillip Jones
Fastest I ever traveled was with two college buddies That had a 63 Black
Chevy Nova with 350/350 with three-2's When the driver kicked in the
third carburetor. I stopped looking at 160mph The telephone poles looked
the size of toothpicks.
Never been on a Motorcycle, even to ride. Always dreamed of owning a
Harley Hog. No funds for the Dream though.
--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
If you're driving in the left lane, you better be passing somebody and
have your left blinker on .. or else those flashing lights behind you
will be one of those "Volkswagens" pulling you over.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
I only drove thru Montana once when there was no speed limit. Now THAT
is scarry, especially when somebody from Louisiana is driving in the
left lane doing 60. You can spot one our Lousiana drivers on ANY
interstate in the country that way, don't have to see the license plate
yet. :-D
JoeS
Terrible accident on I-10
> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>
> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>
>
> NEW ORLEANS, La. � Louisiana State Police say at least five people have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just east of Baton Rouge.
>
> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13 people.
>
> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east bound lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
--
JoeS Using TB3
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_3.0_-_New_Features_and_Changes
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Thunderbird/Thunderbird_Binaries
Terry R.
>>>>> When you click on reply, do you see that the followup has been set to
>>>>> another group? This of course doesn't negate the fact that a note
>>>>> should
>>>>> be made in the post or that a f'up shouldn't have been set in the first
>>>>> place. Sometimes we get so annoyed and irritated we don't see the f'up
>>>>> set. :-D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I usually don't look to be honest. And that's why I agreed with you.
>>>> ANYONE posting a follow-up should state so. CI went one step further and
>>>> removed the original group from being posted. So he screwed up twice
>>>> IMO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry R.
>>> I don't archive posts but somehow I remember he usually posts that he is
>>> setting the followup .. dunno.
>>>
>> No, he only said, "Guys, if this is just a continuation of your debate
>> in mozilla.general, then take it to mozilla.general." He didn't state
>> HE was changing anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry R.
>
> I wasn't referring to THAT post. What I said/meant was that I "thought"
> that he usually does make a note in the post the he is setting the f'up.
>
> Part of your problem, IMHO, is that you gloss over a paragraph and miss
> half of it. Sorry .. :-(
>
I didn't "miss it". CI usually DOES set a follow-up. And I just quoted
what he had said, since it sounded like you didn't want to look for it.
Terry R.
>>> We bought a new 1983 BMW 733i with a 5 speed manual. I took it past
>>> 140 mph one time, as it had VR rated Pirelli's. It was amazing at how
>>> well it handled. But that was the first and last time. Of course there
>>> were many times on the open roads on the way to CO that I cruised at
>>> 100+. Just have to be REAL careful in Utah. They're sneaky.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry R.
>> I only drove thru Montana once when there was no speed limit. Now THAT
>> is scarry, especially when somebody from Louisiana is driving in the
>> left lane doing 60. You can spot one our Lousiana drivers on ANY
>> interstate in the country that way, don't have to see the license plate
>> yet. :-D
>>
>>
>
> Terrible accident on I-10
>
>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>
>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>
>
>> NEW ORLEANS, La. � Louisiana State Police say at least five people have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just east of Baton Rouge.
>>
>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13 people.
>>
>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east bound lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>
> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>
>
>
Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
innocent lives.
Terry R.
What are you running on that laptop? Video editing/rendering is
probably one of the highest stress apps a computer can run. Laptops
just don't seem to have the right combo of components to do it for any
long projects.
Ron Hunter
Phillip Jones
the floor. drive and one passenger sit in front seat. one in middle
against front seat facing Back and 5 along each side. ;)
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the keyboard
>
>>>> We bought a new 1983 BMW 733i with a 5 speed manual. I took it past
>>>> 140 mph one time, as it had VR rated Pirelli's. It was amazing at how
>>>> well it handled. But that was the first and last time. Of course there
>>>> were many times on the open roads on the way to CO that I cruised at
>>>> 100+. Just have to be REAL careful in Utah. They're sneaky.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry R.
>>> I only drove thru Montana once when there was no speed limit. Now THAT
>>> is scarry, especially when somebody from Louisiana is driving in the
>>> left lane doing 60. You can spot one our Lousiana drivers on ANY
>>> interstate in the country that way, don't have to see the license plate
>>> yet. :-D
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>
>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>
>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>
>>
>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five people
>>> have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in
>>> critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just
>>> east of Baton Rouge.
>>>
>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling
>>> side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday
>>> morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13
>>> people.
>>>
>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east bound
>>> lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>>
>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>>
>>
>>
>
> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
> innocent lives.
>
>
> Terry R.
Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver was
killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
AVS4You => Video Editor, DVD Author, Converter and player. Not all that
intense but works as intended "in the field" for 10 minute videos. I
have more powerful apps on the main box at home.
Ron Hunter
pulled over. Illegal immigrants, of course. All of them split in
different directions.
Ron Hunter
> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>>>> We bought a new 1983 BMW 733i with a 5 speed manual. I took it past
>>>>> 140 mph one time, as it had VR rated Pirelli's. It was amazing at how
>>>>> well it handled. But that was the first and last time. Of course there
>>>>> were many times on the open roads on the way to CO that I cruised at
>>>>> 100+. Just have to be REAL careful in Utah. They're sneaky.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Terry R.
>>>> I only drove thru Montana once when there was no speed limit. Now THAT
>>>> is scarry, especially when somebody from Louisiana is driving in the
>>>> left lane doing 60. You can spot one our Lousiana drivers on ANY
>>>> interstate in the country that way, don't have to see the license plate
>>>> yet. :-D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>
>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>
>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>
>>>> have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in
>>>> critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just
>>>> east of Baton Rouge.
>>>>
>>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling
>>>> side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday
>>>> morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13
>>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east
>>>> bound lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>>>
>>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
>> innocent lives.
>>
>>
>> Terry R.
>
> Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver was
> killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
>
in a minivan.
Terry R.
> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>>>> We bought a new 1983 BMW 733i with a 5 speed manual. I took it past
>>>>> 140 mph one time, as it had VR rated Pirelli's. It was amazing at how
>>>>> well it handled. But that was the first and last time. Of course there
>>>>> were many times on the open roads on the way to CO that I cruised at
>>>>> 100+. Just have to be REAL careful in Utah. They're sneaky.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Terry R.
>>>> I only drove thru Montana once when there was no speed limit. Now THAT
>>>> is scarry, especially when somebody from Louisiana is driving in the
>>>> left lane doing 60. You can spot one our Lousiana drivers on ANY
>>>> interstate in the country that way, don't have to see the license plate
>>>> yet. :-D
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>
>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>
>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. � Louisiana State Police say at least five people
>>>> have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in
>>>> critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just
>>>> east of Baton Rouge.
>>>>
>>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling
>>>> side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday
>>>> morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13
>>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east bound
>>>> lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
>> innocent lives.
>>
>>
>> Terry R.
>
> Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver was
> killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
>
Maybe 11 children, if 13 was the total...
Terry R.
Was inquiring more about the hardware. Software isn't that relevant,
since any video editing program does about the same thing.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
... the hardware that came with the laptop, no addons.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>>>> We bought a new 1983 BMW 733i with a 5 speed manual. I took it past
>>>>>> 140 mph one time, as it had VR rated Pirelli's. It was amazing at how
>>>>>> well it handled. But that was the first and last time. Of course
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> were many times on the open roads on the way to CO that I cruised at
>>>>>> 100+. Just have to be REAL careful in Utah. They're sneaky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Terry R.
>>>>> I only drove thru Montana once when there was no speed limit. Now THAT
>>>>> is scarry, especially when somebody from Louisiana is driving in the
>>>>> left lane doing 60. You can spot one our Lousiana drivers on ANY
>>>>> interstate in the country that way, don't have to see the license
>>>>> plate
>>>>> yet. :-D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>
>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>
>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five people
>>>>> have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in
>>>>> critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just
>>>>> east of Baton Rouge.
>>>>>
>>>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling
>>>>> side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday
>>>>> morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13
>>>>> people.
>>>>>
>>>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east
>>>>> bound lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>>>>
>>>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
>>> innocent lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry R.
>>
>> Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver was
>> killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
>>
> Candidates for the 'Darwin Awards'. Not too smart having that many kids
> in a minivan.
>
And NONE had seatbelts, driver and four of the childred died.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 11/28/2009 10:03 PM On a whim, Jay Garcia pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>>>> We bought a new 1983 BMW 733i with a 5 speed manual. I took it past
>>>>>> 140 mph one time, as it had VR rated Pirelli's. It was amazing at how
>>>>>> well it handled. But that was the first and last time. Of course
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> were many times on the open roads on the way to CO that I cruised at
>>>>>> 100+. Just have to be REAL careful in Utah. They're sneaky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Terry R.
>>>>> I only drove thru Montana once when there was no speed limit. Now THAT
>>>>> is scarry, especially when somebody from Louisiana is driving in the
>>>>> left lane doing 60. You can spot one our Lousiana drivers on ANY
>>>>> interstate in the country that way, don't have to see the license
>>>>> plate
>>>>> yet. :-D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>
>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>
>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five people
>>>>> have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in
>>>>> critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just
>>>>> east of Baton Rouge.
>>>>>
>>>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling
>>>>> side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday
>>>>> morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13
>>>>> people.
>>>>>
>>>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east bound
>>>>> lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>>>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
>>> innocent lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry R.
>>
>> Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver was
>> killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
>>
>
> Maybe 11 children, if 13 was the total...
>
>
> Terry R.
Two adults and 13 children were in the minivan, reported in this
morning's paper.
Terry R.
And that's what I wanted to know. "What" hardware does the laptop
have... CPU/RAM/hard drive speed/video card/etc
Ron Hunter
>>>>>> have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in
>>>>>> critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just
>>>>>> east of Baton Rouge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling
>>>>>> side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday
>>>>>> morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east
>>>>>> bound lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>>>>>
>>>>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
>>>> innocent lives.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry R.
>>>
>>> Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver was
>>> killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
>>>
>> Candidates for the 'Darwin Awards'. Not too smart having that many
>> kids in a minivan.
>>
>
> And NONE had seatbelts, driver and four of the childred died.
>
of 4 children, and the prison sentences for that would make one wish for
a nice quick death.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
>>>>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five people
>>>>>>> have been killed and at least eight more taken to the hospital in
>>>>>>> critical condition after a two-car accident on Interstate 10 just
>>>>>>> east of Baton Rouge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were traveling
>>>>>>> side-by-side in the west bound lane of the interstate Saturday
>>>>>>> morning when a tire apparently blew out on a mini van carrying 13
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the east
>>>>>>> bound lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like that take
>>>>> innocent lives.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Terry R.
>>>>
>>>> Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver was
>>>> killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
>>>>
>>> Candidates for the 'Darwin Awards'. Not too smart having that many
>>> kids in a minivan.
>>>
>>
>> And NONE had seatbelts, driver and four of the childred died.
>>
> Probably a good thing he died. I suspect being loaded with the deaths
> of 4 children, and the prison sentences for that would make one wish for
> a nice quick death.
>
Actually the local story said the driver and the passenger were the only
ones wearing seatbelts. Driver died instantly, passenger and 9 children
in critical condition in local hospitals.
www.nola.com for the story.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
I'll have to crank it up to find out as I really only use it when I go
out of town to the dog shows. It is the first Lenovo that still had the
IBM Logo on it and the last one to be loaded with XP-Pro .. Vista after
that model.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Ok, cranked it up:
CPU 2.00 Intel
RAM: 1 GB
HD: 80 gig
Video: Mobile Intel 945 Express Chipset
Model Z61e Thinkpad/Lenovo
»Q«
Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
> Ok, cranked it up:
>
> CPU 2.00 Intel
Core 2 Duo T2500 or T7300? I'm curious, but it's probably not enough
to cause you to boot again, heh. The main difference is the FSB speed,
but there was also an increase in L2 cache, which could make a speed
difference under heavy load.
> RAM: 1 GB
> HD: 80 gig
> Video: Mobile Intel 945 Express Chipset
Mine's the 965 chipset, but other than that, our machines are quite the
same.
> Model Z61e Thinkpad/Lenovo
Sony VGN-fz190 CTO here. I don't do much video editing, though I have
done some without problems, not DVD quality, just light stuff. I got
this thing with an nVidia 8400M GT, and I wish I hadn't because I don't
really need it, and with my recent switch to KDE4 it really eats power.
--
»Q« /"\
ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ /
against html e-mail X
<http://asciiribbon.org/> / \
Ken Whiton
*-* In Article <J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
*-* Jay Garcia wrote
*-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>
>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>> keyboard
[ ... ]
>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five
>>>>>>>> people have been killed and at least eight more taken to the
>>>>>>>> hospital in critical condition after a two-car accident on
>>>>>>>> Interstate 10 just east of Baton Rouge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> State police spokesman Doug Cain said two vehicles were
>>>>>>>> traveling side-by-side in the west bound lane of the
>>>>>>>> interstate Saturday morning when a tire apparently blew out
>>>>>>>> on a mini van carrying 13 people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The van and a delivery truck collided and crashed into the
>>>>>>>> east bound lanes. The mini van rolled over several times.
>
>>>>>>> Question: How do you get 13 people into a mini-van ?
>
>>>>>> Probably transporting illegals. Sad how often accidents like
>>>>>> that take innocent lives.
>
>>>>> Not illegals, two adults and 13 children all related. The driver
>>>>> was killed instantly + 4 others, not yet determined who yet.
>
>>>> Candidates for the 'Darwin Awards'. Not too smart having that
>>>> many kids in a minivan.
>
>>> And NONE had seatbelts, driver and four of the childred died.
>
>> Probably a good thing he died.
She. According to the newspaper story linked from Jay's link
below, both adults were women.
>> I suspect being loaded with the
>> deaths of 4 children, and the prison sentences for that would make
>> one wish for a nice quick death.
>
> Actually the local story said the driver and the passenger were the
> only ones wearing seatbelts. Driver died instantly, passenger and 9
> children in critical condition in local hospitals.
>
> www.nola.com for the story.
According to the Times-Picayune article linked from that page, it
was "seven other children"
(<http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/fatal-wreck-ids.html>)
which combined with the four children who died would make 11 (not 13)
children riding in the minivan.
Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: kenw...@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)
Ron Hunter
> *-* On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, at 16:42:12 -0600,
> *-* In Article<J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
> *-* Jay Garcia wrote
> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>
>> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>>> keyboard
>
> [ ... ]
>
>>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>>
and endangering children.
I would expect child endangerment, and other charges against the
surviving adult, should she live.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> In <news:V-qdneybkOhlYY_W...@mozilla.org>,
> Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok, cranked it up:
>>
>> CPU 2.00 Intel
>
> Core 2 Duo T2500 or T7300? I'm curious, but it's probably not enough
> to cause you to boot again, heh. The main difference is the FSB speed,
> but there was also an increase in L2 cache, which could make a speed
> difference under heavy load.
T7200
>> RAM: 1 GB
>> HD: 80 gig
>> Video: Mobile Intel 945 Express Chipset
>
> Mine's the 965 chipset, but other than that, our machines are quite the
> same.
>
>> Model Z61e Thinkpad/Lenovo
>
> Sony VGN-fz190 CTO here. I don't do much video editing, though I have
> done some without problems, not DVD quality, just light stuff. I got
> this thing with an nVidia 8400M GT, and I wish I hadn't because I don't
> really need it, and with my recent switch to KDE4 it really eats power.
>
All I really do at the dog shows is to shoot about 10 mins of video and
back at the motel I edit out people walking in front of the camera and
also the sounds of the videographer saying nasty things when they do. :-)
Don't need all that "power".
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
The state police at the scene reported 13 children plus two adults.
Believe most what you see and half of what is written in the media if
that much. And according to forensics, 5 children died plus the driver.
I don't get these reports from the media, by the way.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 11/29/2009 10:35 PM, Ken Whiton wrote:
>> *-* On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, at 16:42:12 -0600,
>> *-* In Article<J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
>> *-* Jay Garcia wrote
>> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>>
>>> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>
>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>>>> keyboard
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five
Under this particular circumstance, the passenger cannot be held legally
responsible as this was not a sponsored trip but rather a family outing.
The responsibility falls directly on the driver, the captain of the ship
so to speak. If this would have been a chaperoned trip, say from a bible
study group or school field trip then yes, both responsible. So far,
that's the take.
Terry R.
Ah, okay. I couldn't see doing any extensive video work on that machine
for any length of time. You most likely only have a 5,400 rpm drive and
no dedicated video card, so even your video is sharing the 1 gig of RAM.
I wouldn't expect to see any overheating issues on a laptop of that
caliber.
And that "uncomfortable" feeling you discussed earlier while having the
laptop in anyone's lap is usually the hard drive. If it's coming from
anywhere else, hopefully the owner would take the time to check it out
before they do experience a failure.
Ron Hunter
> On 29.11.2009 22:35, Ken Whiton wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> *-* On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, at 16:42:12 -0600,
>> *-* In Article <J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
>> *-* Jay Garcia wrote
>> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>>
>>> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>
>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>>>> keyboard
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>>>
Ron Hunter
> On 30.11.2009 02:29, Ron Hunter wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 11/29/2009 10:35 PM, Ken Whiton wrote:
>>> *-* On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, at 16:42:12 -0600,
>>> *-* In Article<J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
>>> *-* Jay Garcia wrote
>>> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>>>
>>>> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>>>>> keyboard
>>>
>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>
that for a minute. ANY adult should have better sense. But then I
don't know Jack about Louisiana laws. Seems to me that ANY adult
should be held responsible for children in their care.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 11/30/2009 7:29 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 29.11.2009 22:35, Ken Whiton wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> *-* On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, at 16:42:12 -0600,
>>> *-* In Article <J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
>>> *-* Jay Garcia wrote
>>> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>>>
>>>> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>>>>> keyboard
>>>
>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five
Yes, it was the Hines family from Harvey, La. My sister was called to
the scene and will also do the autopsies if necessary, especially on the
driver. By the way, it WAS only 4 children. There was a mis-count due to
a count on legs and torso's ... won't go into details.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 11/30/2009 7:32 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 30.11.2009 02:29, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> On 11/29/2009 10:35 PM, Ken Whiton wrote:
>>>> *-* On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, at 16:42:12 -0600,
>>>> *-* In Article<J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
>>>> *-* Jay Garcia wrote
>>>> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>>>>
>>>>> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>>>>>> keyboard
>>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW ORLEANS, La. — Louisiana State Police say at least five
Moral responsibility and legally responsible are two very different things.
»Q«
Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
If the adult passenger was a parent or guardian to any of the children,
she was negligent of her legal responsibilities. But that doesn't have
to do with her being a passenger -- if any of the kids'
parents/guardians were aware of the situation and did nothing to
prevent it, they could also be charged with negligence.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
They were all related. The passenger, don't know the relationship yet,
is only responsible to her immediate family member(s) involved. It would
be a shut case if they were on a sponsored trip .. school, church, etc.
but they weren't, they were just along for the ride to help move the
driver and her stuff back to Harvey.
Ron
I read a comment from what seemed to be a relative of the bunch,that the
passenger lost a child (possibly a daughter)in the first four deaths.Not
sure about the one that died in the hospital today as to who and how she
was related.
Ron
Ron Hunter
> On 30.11.2009 16:39, Ron Hunter wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 11/30/2009 7:29 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> On 29.11.2009 22:35, Ken Whiton wrote:
>>>
>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>> *-* On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, at 16:42:12 -0600,
>>>> *-* In Article <J7mdnafWI85fZY_W...@mozilla.org>,
>>>> *-* Jay Garcia wrote
>>>> *-* About Re: CNET bashes Firefox.
>>>>
>>>>> On 29.11.2009 14:38, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 9:56 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29.11.2009 03:00, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/29/2009 12:03 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 28.11.2009 17:44, Terry R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/28/2009 1:49 PM On a whim, JoeS pounded out on the
>>>>>>>>>> keyboard
>>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Terrible accident on I-10
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Five Killed in Louisiana Interstate Crash
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, November 28, 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>>
is the wait for toxicology report.
Ron Hunter
law."
Ron Hunter
on all the survivors mental stability? I surely wouldn't want to have
to wake up each morning with the knowledge that I had let something like
that happen. If the surviving adult (IF she survives), is any kind of
decent human being, she will punish herself far beyond what the law
would allow society to punish her.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
The passenger is in ICU and there will be no charges filed against her
or the driver according to my sister who is heading up the forensics
investigation. And yes, charges "could" be filed against the deceased
driver. The impact on the survivors and family is just too devasting to
proceed any further.
Ron Hunter
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Sixth death - child died a little while ago on life support - Ariel
Hines, 12 yo.
The Real Bev
> On 12/12/2009 12:14 AM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> Dennis wrote:
>>
>>> Fastest I have ever been was on a 2007 Goldwing. 130+(mph) (? not real
>>> sure, I quit looking at the speedometer at 130 then went slightly
>>> faster) and it was still climbing. On a highway in the northern half of
>>> the lower peninsula of Michigan, in an area know for its deer and elk
>>> population.
>>
>> Our 1978 Wing wouldn't do that. I think the engine was a 1200, but it's
>> been a while.
>>
>>> I wasn't scared, I was just stupid!!
>>
>> Nononono. Once is exhilarating, twice is stupid.
>>
>>> There is nothing quite like high speed on two wheels.
On skis is pretty good. I just found out that I love heavy stiff skis.
Stability roolz. Judging from the sound of the wind in my ears compared with
similar sounds on my bicycle, 30-40 mph is plenty fast.
>> Best I could ever manage on my Suzuki 550 was 85. Big disappointment.
>
> My 800 Suzuki Intruder would do better than 110 and still had throttle
> but that was ridiculously fast on that little bike. It was very light
> and loose at that speed.
Is that a euphemism for 'wobbly'?
>>> A buddy of mine back in MIchigan bought one of the 2007 Kawasaki
>>> Ninja's, (the first one in Michigan actually, or so he claims anyway).
>>> He took it up to 173mph, with his girlfriend on behind!!!! Now that *IS*
>>> crazy!!!!
>>
>> Got new pix? Post URL please!
>
> Not yet. I lost over 4000 pics. I thought they were gone for good
> because I formatted a partition that later I thought I must have put
> them on.
Just reading that gave me a shudder.
> Much to my relief I found them on a different external
> harddrive. I cannot remember if I put them on this drive before I got
> the new one and then copied them to the new drive or not. I seem to
> think that is what I did then weeks later formatted the partition on the
> new drive to install another linux. Then I couldn't find my pictures and
> thought they were lost for good. When I hooked up the old external drive
> for something I found them. Whew!! But I still have to get them ready to
> put up. I keep saying soon but it has been 18 months since may last
> update of pics.
Hmph. A likely story. Pure laziness if you ask me!
I have 3 drives and keep 6 LIVE rotating backups (bootable, a godsend when I
have to boot into a different partition to fix the one that just got borked
because of a power failute) -- a new one whenever I think of it, and I'm
overdue right now -- AND two full backups to USB drives. NO WAY am I going to
lose something important.
Picasa is very nice for dealing with photos if you aren't doing complicated
editing on them, and google thoughtfully provides a place to share them.
Picasa/linux runs under wine, but it doesn't seem to be offensive.
--
Cheers, Bev
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to
spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and
begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Ron Hunter
Recuva, didn't. sigh.
Fortunately, it was just entertainment.
>
> I have 3 drives and keep 6 LIVE rotating backups (bootable, a godsend
> when I have to boot into a different partition to fix the one that just
> got borked because of a power failute) -- a new one whenever I think of
> it, and I'm overdue right now -- AND two full backups to USB drives. NO
> WAY am I going to lose something important.
>
> Picasa is very nice for dealing with photos if you aren't doing
> complicated editing on them, and google thoughtfully provides a place to
> share them. Picasa/linux runs under wine, but it doesn't seem to be
> offensive.
>
--
Ron Hunter - rphu...@charter.net