Re: Why are Andrew's posts being removed?
Bill Braun
> On 16.12.2009 06:52, Bill Braun wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> A community suffers more from lack of fairness than it does from
>> difference of opinion over issues of content.
>
> Very true indeed.
>
>> The irony is, if his posts are being suppressed, none of the rest of us
>> can judge if the rules are being fairly applied.
>
> The server admin chooses a moderator(s) after which a RFE bug is entered
> to discuss the formation of the guidelines. Everyone has a chance to
> voice an opinion as to the makeup of the guidelines. Once in place it is
> solely up to the moderators to enforce those guidelines. Users have a
> voice but only to voice an opinion which is just that, an opinion and
> not a judgement - that sole privilege is awarded the moderators. If you
> (collectively) don't like it then file a bug to change it. You have that
> right and by past experience you WILL be heard and comments to your bug
> will be forthcoming.
>
>> Transparency will eventually make the best case, for or against.
>
> .. which has already manifested itself many times over.
>
>> Bill B
>
> The peer support users here have to make the choice between helping the
> user or griping about the way the server/groups are moderated. I do both
> (saying that before someone else does)!! :-)
>
Thank you, Jay, well spoken.
Bill B
Larry Gusaas
Besides the deletion of 11 posts by Andrew on the thread "Why are
Andrew's posts being removed?" on mozilla.support.thunderbird, two of
your posts have been deleted, as well as one of mine.
I checked them on
http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85302.html
--
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
I can't see where any of "mine" got deleted/cancelled/whatever. There is
no just cause for ANY of "mine" to be cancelled/deleted, etc.
--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
»Q«
Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry saw.
--
»Q« /"\
ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ /
against html e-mail X
<http://asciiribbon.org/> / \
Leonidas Jones
> In<news:lOadnQ98GYoXM7TW...@mozilla.org>,
> Jay Garcia<J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16.12.2009 20:09, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>
>>> I checked them on
>>> http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85302.html
>>
>> I can't see where any of "mine" got deleted/cancelled/whatever.
>
> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
> headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry saw.
>
Okay, that takes him from the simply objectionable list to the troll
list. My killfile on him is permanent then.
Lee
Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter
Bob Jamieson
> In <news:lOadnQ98GYoXM7TW...@mozilla.org>,
> Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16.12.2009 20:09, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>
>>> I checked them on
>>> http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85302.html
>> I can't see where any of "mine" got deleted/cancelled/whatever.
>
> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
> headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry saw.
>
Is this guy that . . . "devious"? I mean, seriously, spoofing headers
is pretty low, even for someone of his nature.
I had previously thought this guy was just obnoxiously eccentric, but if
he's spoofing headers . . . then in my book he's downright "evil".
BJ
--
Bob Jamieson
Remove the "no spam" before replying via email
Ron Hunter
one had evil intentions for the spoofing, but I would consider it
suspicious.
Bob Jamieson
sounds like an "evil intention".
Bill Braun
>
> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
> headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry saw.
>
Evidence?
You might be right, and, you might just be talking trash
(which I do not mean personally). My point on evidence is
transparency. I find it troubling that the rush to judgment
is made on a suggestion (which, again, might be right, or not).
What feels good or justified is not necessarily effective or
good for the long-term well-being of a community.
Bill B
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> In<news:lOadnQ98GYoXM7TW...@mozilla.org>,
> Jay Garcia<J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16.12.2009 20:09, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>
>> > I checked them on
>> > http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85302.html
>>
>> I can't see where any of "mine" got deleted/cancelled/whatever.
>
> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
> headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry saw.
>
Yow ... impersonation, one could only hope to be provable and he could
be in deep deux deux!!
Bob Jamieson
Yes, I had this same question . . . Evidence?
Q says "apparently". How do you arrive at that conclusion? Just
exactly what is "apparently" based on?
(Not saying this is true or untrue, just wondering what this accusation
is based on. Before we all start to lynch the guy for "identity theft".
. . and I jumped to that conclusion myself . . . would be nice to know
the actual basis).
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Andrew is no passing stranger to these groups, hence a better and more
accurate assessment.
Ron Hunter
malicious, only an attempt to get on the news server, and post.
KristleBawl
> On 12/17/2009 12:05 AM, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> �Q� wrote:
>>> Jay Garcia<J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>>>> On 16.12.2009 20:09, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>>>> I checked them on
>>>>> http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85302.html
>>>>
>>>> I can't see where any of "mine" got deleted/cancelled/whatever.
>>>
>>> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
>>> headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
>>> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry saw.
>>
>> Okay, that takes him from the simply objectionable list to the troll
>> list. My killfile on him is permanent then.
>>
That link satisfied my concerns, too. It does appear that he has crossed
another line and earned the killfile, again.
I'm a relative newcomer to Mozilla but not to Usenet. I see posts here
from people I have come to know as knowledgeable and accurate, and I've
learned from you. Thank you!
--
And the BBS'er saw that he was without a tagline, and was ashamed...
KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved
»Q«
Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
> On 16.12.2009 22:35, »Q« wrote:
>
> > In<news:lOadnQ98GYoXM7TW...@mozilla.org>,
> > Jay Garcia<J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 16.12.2009 20:09, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >>
> >> > I checked them on
> >> > http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85302.html
> >>
> >> I can't see where any of "mine" got deleted/cancelled/whatever.
> >
> > I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
> > headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
> > readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry
> > saw.
>
> Yow ... impersonation, one could only hope to be provable and he
> could be in deep deux deux!!
I doubt it's something you'd want to take action on -- the content of
the messages was clearly DeFaria's, not trying to pretend to be you,
for what it's worth.
»Q«
Bob Jamieson <nospamrbj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bill Braun wrote, On 12/17/2009 06:45 AM:
> > »Q« wrote:
> >>
> >> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof
> >> his headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
> >> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what
> >> Larry saw.
> >
> > Evidence?
> Yes, I had this same question . . . Evidence?
Seriously? I left the URL in my post so you could have clicked the
posts at readlist yourselves. You could still back up and do that, if
it's important to you.
Bill Braun
> In <news:csmdnT4ezdn6pbfW...@mozilla.org>,
> Bob Jamieson <nospamrbj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill Braun wrote, On 12/17/2009 06:45 AM:
>>>> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof
>>>> his headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
>>>> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what
>>>> Larry saw.
>>> Evidence?
>
>> Yes, I had this same question . . . Evidence?
>
> Seriously? I left the URL in my post so you could have clicked the
> posts at readlist yourselves. You could still back up and do that, if
> it's important to you.
>
Hi Q,
I ask as a matter of information - are you the one removing
his posts? If so, then can you annotate the message in the
link you supplied? I don't see anything worth banning (but I
might not know what to look for, either).
If not, then you are not the ones enforcing the rules, and
its just a matter of your opinion (which I am not
denigrating, just making a point).
The request for transparency is directed to the people who
actually remove his posts. If its a good idea, most people
will see it that way. Come out an say so.
Bill B
Larry Gusaas
I missed that when I made my previous post. They are obviously DeFaria's.
However, one of my posts of 14 Dec 2009 was deleted.
It is interesting to read Andrew's posts on that thread to get his
version of the cancellation of his posts.
»Q«
Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> »Q« wrote:
> > In <news:csmdnT4ezdn6pbfW...@mozilla.org>,
> > Bob Jamieson <nospamrbj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Bill Braun wrote, On 12/17/2009 06:45 AM:
> >>> »Q« wrote:
> >>>> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof
> >>>> his headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up
> >>>> at readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what
> >>>> Larry saw.
> >>> Evidence?
> >
> >> Yes, I had this same question . . . Evidence?
> >
> > Seriously? I left the URL in my post so you could have clicked the
> > posts at readlist yourselves. You could still back up and do that,
> > if it's important to you.
>
> I ask as a matter of information - are you the one removing
> his posts?
No.
> If so, then can you annotate the message in the link you supplied?
One of them is on the 16th. IIRC, another one appears threaded as a
reply to the actual Jay Garcia.
> I don't see anything worth banning (but I might not know what to look
> for, either).
Your questions about him spoofing Jay don't have to do with the reason
he was banned. He was banned long before those posts, which are only
from the last few days. He was banned for habitually using the groups
to make personal attacks, according to the person who banned him; I've
posted a link to the post explaining the reason for banning already in
this thread.
As far as I can tell, you want to decide for yourself whether or not he
was actually using the groups to make personal attacks and to decide
for yourself whether or not banning was a good idea. There are posts
from DeFaria on the server going back years, to the when GigaNews set
up the server in the first place, so you can if you want.
> If not, then you are not the ones enforcing the rules, and
> its just a matter of your opinion (which I am not
> denigrating, just making a point).
My opinion about what?
Dennis
> Ron Hunter expressed an opinion:
>> On 12/17/2009 12:05 AM, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>> Jay Garcia<J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 16.12.2009 20:09, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>>>>> I checked them on
>>>>>> http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85302.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't see where any of "mine" got deleted/cancelled/whatever.
>>>>
>>>> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof his
>>>> headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up at
>>>> readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what Larry saw.
>>>
>>> Okay, that takes him from the simply objectionable list to the troll
>>> list. My killfile on him is permanent then.
>>>
>> Actually, it adds him to the 'identity theft' class.
>
> That link satisfied my concerns, too. It does appear that he has crossed
> another line and earned the killfile, again.
>
> I'm a relative newcomer to Mozilla but not to Usenet. I see posts here
> from people I have come to know as knowledgeable and accurate, and I've
> learned from you. Thank you!
>
So you are saying you have learned from him as opposed to learning from
the knowledgeable and accurate posters!?!?! ;-)
--
Dennis
KristleBawl
> On 12/17/2009 12:08 PM, KristleBawl wrote:
>> I'm a relative newcomer to Mozilla but not to Usenet. I see posts here
>> from people I have come to know as knowledgeable and accurate, and I've
>> learned from you. Thank you!
>
> So you are saying you have learned from him as opposed to learning from
> the knowledgeable and accurate posters!?!?! ;-)
Tease! I meant I see those posts here, not his posts. ;-)
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Thanks .. don't have the time or the inclination unless it becomes more
of a direct issue.
Bob Jamieson
Here are some pertinent excerpts from Wikipedia and Dictionary.com:
Wiki: "Evil, in many cultures, is a broad term used to describe what
are seen as subjectively harmful deeds"
Dictionary.com: "Characterized by anger or spite; malicious"
Dictionary.com specifically lists "malicious" as a synonym for "evil".
And the Wiki article on "evil" notes that it is a "broad term", and also
is "subjective".
So, my use of the term "evil" may not necessarily mean the same to you,
since there is no objectivity to it.
Lets just say that AD's attitude and recent practice of spoofing Jay's
ID is "less than good" and leave the subjective aspect of degree
("evil", "malicious", and such) out of it.
Ken Whiton
*-* In Article <csmdnT4ezdn6pbfW...@mozilla.org>,
*-* Bob Jamieson wrote
*-* About Re: Why are Andrew's posts being removed?
> Bill Braun wrote, On 12/17/2009 06:45 AM:
>> »Q« wrote:
>
>>> I can't either. DeFaria has apparently taken to trying to spoof
>>> his headers to look like yours, so a couple of his posts show up
>>> at readlist.com as being from "Jay Garcia". I guess that's what
>>> Larry saw.
>
>> Evidence?
>>
>> You might be right, and, you might just be talking trash (which I
>> do not mean personally). My point on evidence is transparency. I
>> find it troubling that the rush to judgment is made on a suggestion
>> (which, again, might be right, or not).
>>
>> What feels good or justified is not necessarily effective or good
>> for the long-term well-being of a community.
>
> Yes, I had this same question . . . Evidence?
>
> Q says "apparently". How do you arrive at that conclusion? Just
> exactly what is "apparently" based on?
>
> (Not saying this is true or untrue, just wondering what this
> accusation is based on. Before we all start to lynch the guy for
> "identity theft". . . and I jumped to that conclusion myself . . .
> would be nice to know the actual basis).
Judge for yourself.
http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85775.html
http://readlist.com/lists/lists.mozilla.org/support-thunderbird/17/85830.html
Those are the links to the two individual posts, ostensibly from Jay,
but with content obviously by AD, that »Q« referred to.
Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: kenw...@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)
Ron Hunter
bad attitude. I don't see that in Andrew's posts. He is an obviously
intelligent, and well-informed person who just refuses to respect
others, or to use appropriate language in his posts.
If you consider that 'evil', then we aren't going to agree on the
definition of the term.
'Evil' is a person who slaughters a whole family, then sits down in
their kitchen and makes a meal out of the contents of their refrigerator.
Bob Jamieson
context, which probably reflects the common usage and understanding of
the term (notwithstanding the Wiki and Dictionary.com defs), and AD is
certainly not in that category (well . . . we don't know what's in his
refrigerator).
I think we agree on "less than good" though.
Bob Jamieson
Curiously, AD's sig line appears in those posts, so it doesn't seem his
spoofing was an attempt to "steal" Jay's identity as much as it was an
attempt to circumvent the banning.
Q referenced that aspect when he responded to Jay's "deux deux" message.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
I emailed him about those, thanks, will see what his reply is.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Probably trying to hide to avoid cancellation. Not considered "evil" but
rather unethical to say the least.
Curious though as to how ReadList works. That entire thread could be
considered "From: Jay Garcia" since I started it. Are there other
replies "From: Jay Garcia" that I didn't author?
Ron Hunter
Charles Manson, and Saddam Hussein. But I don't think Andrew either
comes near that standard, or aspires to it. He just isn't fond of
'rules' (whatever you call them).
»Q«
Jay Garcia <J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
> Curious though as to how ReadList works. That entire thread could be
> considered "From: Jay Garcia" since I started it.
You didn't start it -- Larry did. It looks like readlist only uses the
From header to display whom a post was from.
> Are there other replies "From: Jay Garcia" that I didn't author?
As of the other day when I first posted, I don't think so. But I
haven't looked since then.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> In<news:LNudnbNAeuMKEbbW...@mozilla.org>,
> Jay Garcia<J...@JayNOSPAMGarcia.com> wrote:
>
>> Curious though as to how ReadList works. That entire thread could be
>> considered "From: Jay Garcia" since I started it.
>
> You didn't start it -- Larry did. It looks like readlist only uses the
> From header to display whom a post was from.
>
>> Are there other replies "From: Jay Garcia" that I didn't author?
>
> As of the other day when I first posted, I don't think so. But I
> haven't looked since then.
>
I emailed Andrew and he wrote back "Just testing ..." which means that
he was seeing if using someone else's From: only, would work .. it
didni't. He didn't use my email address just the From:
I'm satisfied with his "cordial" answer.
Time to move on ..
Bill Braun
> As far as I can tell, you want to decide for yourself whether or not he
> was actually using the groups to make personal attacks and to decide
> for yourself whether or not banning was a good idea. There are posts
> from DeFaria on the server going back years, to the when GigaNews set
> up the server in the first place, so you can if you want.
Not individually or unilaterally. I want to have confidence
in those that do make the decisions, and acting
transparently will accomplish that.
Bill B
»Q«
Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
Urging transparent action seems to imply that you believe something is
being hidden from you. More specifically, what transparency do you
seek?
Bill Braun
>>> As far as I can tell, you want to decide for yourself whether or
>>> not he was actually using the groups to make personal attacks and
>>> to decide for yourself whether or not banning was a good idea.
>>> There are posts from DeFaria on the server going back years, to the
>>> when GigaNews set up the server in the first place, so you can if
>>> you want.
>> Not individually or unilaterally. I want to have confidence
>> in those that do make the decisions, and acting
>> transparently will accomplish that.
>
> Urging transparent action seems to imply that you believe something is
> being hidden from you. More specifically, what transparency do you
> seek?
>
[Name] was [action taken] for [reason] on [date], after
having been formally warned on [dates]. Evidence available
at [URL].
Or the like.
Everyone can see, openly and transparently, who has been
censured by the community for what reasons. Consistency and
fairness will be obvious.
Bill B
»Q«
Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> »Q« wrote:
> > In <news:Kqqdnc_SrvQBQLHW...@mozilla.org>,
> > Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> »Q« wrote:
^^^^^
That's a weird problem I don't usually see Thunderbird have with
quoting UTF-8 posts. And that problem wasn't there in your earlier
replies. Have you changed some settings WRT character handling?
> >>> As far as I can tell, you want to decide for yourself whether or
> >>> not he was actually using the groups to make personal attacks and
> >>> to decide for yourself whether or not banning was a good idea.
> >>> There are posts from DeFaria on the server going back years, to
> >>> the when GigaNews set up the server in the first place, so you
> >>> can if you want.
> >> Not individually or unilaterally. I want to have confidence
> >> in those that do make the decisions, and acting
> >> transparently will accomplish that.
> >
> > Urging transparent action seems to imply that you believe something
> > is being hidden from you. More specifically, what transparency do
> > you seek?
> >
>
> [Name] was [action taken] for [reason] on [date], after
> having been formally warned on [dates]. Evidence available
> at [URL].
>
> Or the like.
>
> Everyone can see, openly and transparently, who has been
> censured by the community for what reasons. Consistency and
> fairness will be obvious.
I'll pass this along.
FWIW, posting that kind of thing publicly draws howls of protest here,
on the grounds that it's some kind of cruel public humiliation, even
when it only has to do with OT posts and not something that could get
anyone banned.
Ken Whiton
*-* In Article <20091219194...@bellgrove.remarqs.net>,
*-* »Q« wrote
*-* About Re: Why are Andrew's posts being removed?
> In <news:No-dnaqrII4lp7DW...@mozilla.org>,
> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> »Q« wrote:
>>> In <news:Kqqdnc_SrvQBQLHW...@mozilla.org>,
>>> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>>> »Q« wrote:
> ^^^^^
>
> That's a weird problem I don't usually see Thunderbird have with
> quoting UTF-8 posts.
I've seen that sort of thing occasionally. Note that his "first
generation" quote handled it correctly, while his "later generation"
(older) quote didn't.
> And that problem wasn't there in your earlier
> replies.
Actually, it shows up in at least one of his earlier posts in
this thread
(<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.general/msg/33d39abf42ffd3fc>
or
<news://news.mozilla.org:119/ZISdnSSHI4eQP7fW...@mozilla.org>).
> Have you changed some settings WRT character handling?
In most cases TB creates/posts replies using the character
encoding of the message/post being replied to, but I notice his
replies to your UTF-8 posts use ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8. TB has
options to "Apply the default character encoding to all incoming
messages" and "Use the default character encoding in replies", both of
which, IIRC, default to "false". I suspect that Bill has one or both
set to "true", and that that's what causes the "problem" with the
"later generation" quotes.
»Q«
Ken Whiton <kenw...@surfglobal.net.INVAL> wrote:
> *-* On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, at 19:46:27 -0600,
> *-* In Article <20091219194...@bellgrove.remarqs.net>,
> *-* »Q« wrote
> *-* About Re: Why are Andrew's posts being removed?
>
> > In <news:No-dnaqrII4lp7DW...@mozilla.org>,
> > Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> »Q« wrote:
> >>> In <news:Kqqdnc_SrvQBQLHW...@mozilla.org>,
> >>> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >>>> »Q« wrote:
> > ^^^^^
> >
> > That's a weird problem I don't usually see Thunderbird have with
> > quoting UTF-8 posts.
>
> I've seen that sort of thing occasionally. Note that his "first
> generation" quote handled it correctly, while his "later generation"
> (older) quote didn't.
>
> > And that problem wasn't there in your earlier
> > replies.
>
> Actually, it shows up in at least one of his earlier posts in
> this thread
> (<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.general/msg/33d39abf42ffd3fc>
> or
> <news://news.mozilla.org:119/ZISdnSSHI4eQP7fW...@mozilla.org>).
Ah, you're right, I hadn't noticed that one.
> > Have you changed some settings WRT character handling?
>
> In most cases TB creates/posts replies using the character
> encoding of the message/post being replied to, but I notice his
> replies to your UTF-8 posts use ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8. TB has
> options to "Apply the default character encoding to all incoming
> messages" and "Use the default character encoding in replies", both of
> which, IIRC, default to "false". I suspect that Bill has one or both
> set to "true", and that that's what causes the "problem" with the
> "later generation" quotes.
"Use the default character encoding in all replies" should be ok, since
Thunderbird should convert anything needed to that encoding, and the
new attribution line will have that encoding.
But "Apply the default character encoding to all incoming messages"
seems like a bad idea -- I guess it's there for people who get a lot of
messages that have the wrong encoding specified.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
FWIW, I manage over 50 AOL/Compuserve forums, all but one transparently
to "coin a familiar phrase" :-). Frankly and professionally speaking it
is considered unethical to put on public display any sort of
disciplanary action(s). How would you like it, if you were issued a
traffic ticket and the cop placed a copy of it on the bulletin board at
the local mall? ;-)
KristleBawl
> On 19.12.2009 14:42, Bill Braun wrote:
>> [Name] was [action taken] for [reason] on [date], after having been
>> formally warned on [dates]. Evidence available at [URL].
>>
>> Or the like.
>>
>> Everyone can see, openly and transparently, who has been censured by the
>> community for what reasons. Consistency and fairness will be obvious.
>
> to "coin a familiar phrase" :-). Frankly and professionally speaking it
> is considered unethical to put on public display any sort of
> disciplanary action(s). How would you like it, if you were issued a
> traffic ticket and the cop placed a copy of it on the bulletin board at
> the local mall? ;-)
Too true! Many web forums and message boards even have written policies
that moderators will not publicly discuss any action, nor respond to
posted questions, such as why a thread was deleted. In most cases, other
users just post the links to TOS, FAQ and others.
Quite often, the ones that question why are the ones that think the
rules are unreasonable, or that they simply do not apply to them. I've
had my fill of being one of those that made decisions. ;-)
--
If you can't make it better, you can laugh at it. - Erma Bombeck
KristleBawl's Taglines by http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Localizations by http://www.babelzilla.org/ Get Involved
Phillip Jones
However; the problem comes in what the Moderators perceive as an
infraction.
If people see said infractions and post that they agree so be it. If
however; the post back they saw nothing to merit such then they should
receive a second look and check to see if the moderator's sensibilities
are not biased or colored some what.
--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com
Phillip Jones
Adobe forums.
I've tried every way I can think. some show a character that looks like
a Large A with a degree circle over top
Phillip Jones
> On 19.12.2009 14:42, Bill Braun wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> �Q� wrote:
>>> In<news:Kqqdnc_SrvQBQLHW...@mozilla.org>,
>>> Bill Braun<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
every month or two. (not parking tickets.) But if you're given a
speeding ticket ticket for reckless driving its in public record. and
we have one local Tv station that does the same its called the police
Blotter.
Bill Braun
> *-* On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, at 19:46:27 -0600,
> *-* In Article <20091219194...@bellgrove.remarqs.net>,
> *-* About Re: Why are Andrew's posts being removed?
>
>> In <news:No-dnaqrII4lp7DW...@mozilla.org>,
>> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> In <news:Kqqdnc_SrvQBQLHW...@mozilla.org>,
>>>> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> ^^^^^
>>
>> That's a weird problem I don't usually see Thunderbird have with
>> quoting UTF-8 posts.
>
> I've seen that sort of thing occasionally. Note that his "first
> generation" quote handled it correctly, while his "later generation"
> (older) quote didn't.
>
>> And that problem wasn't there in your earlier
>> replies.
>
> Actually, it shows up in at least one of his earlier posts in
> this thread
> (<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.general/msg/33d39abf42ffd3fc>
> or
> <news://news.mozilla.org:119/ZISdnSSHI4eQP7fW...@mozilla.org>).
>
>> Have you changed some settings WRT character handling?
>
> In most cases TB creates/posts replies using the character
> encoding of the message/post being replied to, but I notice his
> replies to your UTF-8 posts use ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8. TB has
> options to "Apply the default character encoding to all incoming
> messages" and "Use the default character encoding in replies", both of
> which, IIRC, default to "false". I suspect that Bill has one or both
> set to "true", and that that's what causes the "problem" with the
> "later generation" quotes.
>
> Ken Whiton
These are my settings, which I don't believe I have changed
since installing TB for the first time (I think I started
with 1X or so).
Outgoing: Western (ISO-8859-1)
Incoming: Western (ISO-8859-1)
[CHECKED] Apply the default character encoding to all
incoming messages
[CHECKED] Use the default character encoding in replies
This is the first time (that I am aware of) that my posts
have garnered this type of attention. If they are better set
differently, let me know.
Bill B
Bill Braun
> FWIW, I manage over 50 AOL/Compuserve forums, all but one transparently
> to "coin a familiar phrase" :-). Frankly and professionally speaking it
> is considered unethical to put on public display any sort of
> disciplanary action(s). How would you like it, if you were issued a
> traffic ticket and the cop placed a copy of it on the bulletin board at
> the local mall? ;-)
Point well made and taken. Perhaps the identity can be
anonymous, but the reasons listed, and the evidence shown.
If someone figures out my posts (for example) have
disappeared coincidental with the listing of an anonymous
poster, so be it.
It was never my intention or suggestion to hang someone out
to dry, to embarrass, or to humiliate.
Bill B
Ron Hunter
> On 19.12.2009 14:42, Bill Braun wrote:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> �Q� wrote:
>>> In <news:Kqqdnc_SrvQBQLHW...@mozilla.org>,
>>> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
bringing back the 'stocks'. Put those convicted of DWI in the stocks
for a weekend. People would be allowed to throw rotten vegetables at
them, and laugh at them, and deride them verbally. I rather suspect it
would cut DWI down to 1/100th of its current levels.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> It was never my intention or suggestion to hang someone out to dry, to
> embarrass, or to humiliate.
Walk a mile in the other guy's shoes. ;-)
G. R. Woodring
Guantanamo should be available soon. Just send the DWI convictions there.
Drunk drivers kill more Americans in a year than terrorists have since the
Revolution :-)
--
G. R. Woodring
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
.... and the judges that let 'em loose as well.
»Q«
Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Ken Whiton wrote:
> > *-* On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, at 19:46:27 -0600,
> > *-* In Article <20091219194...@bellgrove.remarqs.net>,
> > *-* »Q« wrote
> > *-* About Re: Why are Andrew's posts being removed?
> >
> >> In <news:No-dnaqrII4lp7DW...@mozilla.org>,
> >> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> »Q« wrote:
> >>>> In <news:Kqqdnc_SrvQBQLHW...@mozilla.org>,
> >>>> Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>>>> »Q« wrote:
> >> ^^^^^
> >>
> >> That's a weird problem I don't usually see Thunderbird have with
> >> quoting UTF-8 posts.
> >
> > I've seen that sort of thing occasionally. Note that his
> > "first generation" quote handled it correctly, while his "later
> > generation" (older) quote didn't.
[snip]
> > In most cases TB creates/posts replies using the character
> > encoding of the message/post being replied to, but I notice his
> > replies to your UTF-8 posts use ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8. TB has
> > options to "Apply the default character encoding to all incoming
> > messages" and "Use the default character encoding in replies", both
> > of which, IIRC, default to "false". I suspect that Bill has one or
> > both set to "true", and that that's what causes the "problem" with
> > the "later generation" quotes.
> These are my settings, which I don't believe I have changed
> since installing TB for the first time (I think I started
> with 1X or so).
>
> Outgoing: Western (ISO-8859-1)
> Incoming: Western (ISO-8859-1)
> [CHECKED] Apply the default character encoding to all
> incoming messages
> [CHECKED] Use the default character encoding in replies
>
> This is the first time (that I am aware of) that my posts
> have garnered this type of attention. If they are better set
> differently, let me know.
Unchecking "Apply the default character encoding to all incoming
messages" should fix it, I'm pretty sure. "Apply" is a bit vague, but
as far as I can tell your current setting is telling Thunderbird to
treat my incoming UTF-8 messages as if they were actually ISO-8859-1,
which can't be a good thing.
Ron
I hope I am not out in left field but something looks kinda strange to me.
I view Bill's post--above and use --View Character encodeing--It shows
Western (Windows-1252)..
I go to --view message source--It says--Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
He posted that he has it set as so:
Outgoing: Western (ISO-8859-1)
Incoming: Western (ISO-8859-1)
[CHECKED] Apply the default character encoding to all incoming messages
[CHECKED] Use the default character encoding in replies
Some thing sure doesn't seem up to snuff to me.
Note also in the post I am replying to the "View Character encodeing"
shows--text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Ron
»Q«
Ron <UH...@shadetree.net> wrote:
> I hope I am not out in left field but something looks kinda strange
> to me. I view Bill's post--above and use --View Character
> encodeing--It shows Western (Windows-1252)..
> I go to --view message source--It says--Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> He posted that he has it set as so:
> Outgoing: Western (ISO-8859-1)
> Incoming: Western (ISO-8859-1)
> [CHECKED] Apply the default character encoding to all incoming
> messages
> [CHECKED] Use the default character encoding in replies
>
> Some thing sure doesn't seem up to snuff to me.
You're right. His earlier posts were ISO-8859-1, but that last one
upthread from here was windows-1252. At a guess he changed something
while looking at his settings, perhaps accidentally.
> Note also in the post I am replying to the "View Character encodeing"
> shows--text/plain; charset=UTF-8
That's right - that was my post, and I've got my client set to always
send UTF-8.
Ron
Thanks for the reply..It does clear it up a tad.
LOL--Well I could argue with you till the cows come home as to yea and
nay re:plain text,HTML,but I know it would be like butting my head
against a stump,so I will let it die a speed ed death..<g> :-)
In MHO,it's kinda like the old ham radio--re: Learning the code and at
about the same time all kinds of new ways had came out to send messages.
Finely a few years back ,they put the dit-dot-dit code out gracefully to
pasture.
I have an idea the old "Plain Text" messages will some day be sent to
the same place. :-)
Ron
Bill Braun
>
> You're right. His earlier posts were ISO-8859-1, but that last one
> upthread from here was windows-1252. At a guess he changed something
> while looking at his settings, perhaps accidentally.
>
not an option I have any reason to visit. On the other hand,
as the Fiddler on the Roof used to say, one never knows.
So, what are the preferred settings?
Bill B
»Q«
Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
Unchecking both those boxes would be the safest thing to do. Setting
the defaults for incoming and outgoing to ISO-8859-1 shouldn't cause
any problem, provided the checkboxes are blank.
Bill Braun
>>> You're right. His earlier posts were ISO-8859-1, but that last one
>>> upthread from here was windows-1252. At a guess he changed
>>> something while looking at his settings, perhaps accidentally.
>>>
>> I am pretty confident that I did not change anything. That's
>> not an option I have any reason to visit. On the other hand,
>> as the Fiddler on the Roof used to say, one never knows.
>>
>> So, what are the preferred settings?
>
> Unchecking both those boxes would be the safest thing to do. Setting
> the defaults for incoming and outgoing to ISO-8859-1 shouldn't cause
> any problem, provided the checkboxes are blank.
>
Bill B
»Q«
Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
It looks like the problem remains, but perhaps the wrong encoding was
already applied to my previous post before the changed settings took
effect. If you could reply one more time, to this post, we should be
able to see if it's alright. Sorry to string you along. ;)
Bill Braun
Bill
»Q«
Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> »Q« wrote:
> > In <news:hPmdnSdAiaFybrLW...@mozilla.org>,
> > Bill Braun <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> »Q« wrote:
All good now. :)
> > If you could reply one more time, to this post, we
> > should be able to see if it's alright. Sorry to string you
> > along. ;)
>
> Thank you again for your help, Q. Much appreciated.
Thanks for sticking with it.