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bugzilla.mozilla.org workflow changes

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Gervase Markham

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Mar 31, 2009, 5:24:48 AM3/31/09
to
A while back (2005), some work was done on defining what would be an
optimum Bugzilla workflow:
http://wiki.mozilla.org/BugzillaWorkflowImprovements

This included the clear definition of a workflow:
http://steelgryphon.com/testcases/bugzilla-workflow-9.png
which I hope will be useful to new QA contributors. Among other things,
the new workflow had a READY state, into which bugs should be put by
triagers and QA when they were ready to be fixed, and from which
developers could take bugs to fix.

Having reviewed the discussion from back then:
http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_thread/thread/80a8f074ab137f10/f9a60aaf914bcd7e?q=%22READY+state%22+mozilla&lnk=ol&
I still think we should make the following changes:

- Create the new READY state, and encourage triagers to manually move
ready bugs into it.

- Abolish the REOPENED state (automatically converting all existing
REOPENED bugs to NEW) as it adds no useful information.

- Publish a tweaked version of mconnor's diagram so people know how
things should work, and as a guide for new QA community members.

Do people think there is still value in this?

Gerv

Jean-Marc Desperrier

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Mar 31, 2009, 8:43:06 AM3/31/09
to
Gervase Markham wrote:
> Among other things, the new workflow had a READY state, into which bugs
> should be put by triagers and QA when they were ready to be fixed, and
> from which developers could take bugs to fix.
>
> [...]

> I still think we should make the following changes:
>
> - Create the new READY state, and encourage triagers to manually move
> ready bugs into it.
>
> - Abolish the REOPENED state (automatically converting all existing
> REOPENED bugs to NEW) as it adds no useful information.
>
> - Publish a tweaked version of mconnor's diagram so people know how
> things should work, and as a guide for new QA community members.
>
> Do people think there is still value in this?

I'd go further. There could be a lot of value in creating new states
between "assigned" and "resolved fixed".

I'm thinking of :
- Assigned : Changed to mean that the bug is waiting until the dev it's
affected to *actually* starts working on it
- Under Work : the dev is currently busy investigating the bug/writing
code to solve it
- Patched : There's a patch attached that solves the bug as far as the
affected dev is concerned, but that has not yet been validated.

And then a report of the bugs that have stayed more than a few weeks in
the "Patched" state, or several months in the "Assigned" state would be
*very* useful.

Benjamin Smedberg

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Mar 31, 2009, 10:35:16 AM3/31/09
to
On 3/31/09 5:24 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:

> This included the clear definition of a workflow:
> http://steelgryphon.com/testcases/bugzilla-workflow-9.png
> which I hope will be useful to new QA contributors. Among other things,
> the new workflow had a READY state, into which bugs should be put by
> triagers and QA when they were ready to be fixed, and from which
> developers could take bugs to fix.

Have developers indicated that they are actually going to use this new
state? I'm wary of adding additional metadata to all our bugs unless there
is a clear indication that it's going to help someone in a practical way.
READY is only better than a little whiteboard note if it's going to help
create effective queries, and we'd all pay a price to keep READY and NEW
separate.

It's like ASSIGNED: while there may be some theoretical difference between
ASSIGNED and NEW, I haven't seen most developers use the ASSIGNED state.

I tend to think that in most of the modules I own READY would just be
another thing for people to argue over, with little practical benefit. On
the other hand, I think we could probably ignore it and it would cause only
minor inconvenience.

--BDS

L. David Baron

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Mar 31, 2009, 11:00:09 AM3/31/09
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Tuesday 2009-03-31 10:24 +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> - Create the new READY state, and encourage triagers to manually move
> ready bugs into it.

Don't we already have such a distinction: UNCONFIRMED vs. NEW?
What does this *additional* distinction add?

I'd love to have a way to un-confirm a bug, though. (That is, move
it from NEW to UNCONFIRMED, because it shouldn't have been
confirmed.)

> - Abolish the REOPENED state (automatically converting all existing
> REOPENED bugs to NEW) as it adds no useful information.

Sounds reasonable to me.

-David

--
L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/
Mozilla Corporation http://www.mozilla.com/

Martijn

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Mar 31, 2009, 11:29:49 AM3/31/09
to L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:00 PM, L. David Baron <dba...@dbaron.org> wrote:
> On Tuesday 2009-03-31 10:24 +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
>> - Create the new READY state, and encourage triagers to manually move
>>   ready bugs into it.
>
> Don't we already have such a distinction:  UNCONFIRMED vs. NEW?
> What does this *additional* distinction add?

I have the same feeling about this.
Afaics, it would only cause a lot of work where qa/triagers needs to
go through all the NEW bugs and mark them as READY when appropriate.

> I'd love to have a way to un-confirm a bug, though.  (That is, move
> it from NEW to UNCONFIRMED, because it shouldn't have been
> confirmed.)
>

>> - Abolish the REOPENED state (automatically converting all existing
>>   REOPENED bugs to NEW) as it adds no useful information.

I guess you could do that, but I don't really see the harm of REOPENED bugs.

Regards,
Martijn

> Sounds reasonable to me.
>
> -David
>
> --
> L. David Baron                                 http://dbaron.org/
> Mozilla Corporation                       http://www.mozilla.com/

> _______________________________________________
> dev-planning mailing list
> dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-planning
>

--
Martijn Wargers - Help Mozilla!
http://quality.mozilla.org/
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community
irc://irc.mozilla.org/qa - /nick mw22

Joshua Cranmer

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Mar 31, 2009, 11:36:10 AM3/31/09
to
L. David Baron wrote:
> On Tuesday 2009-03-31 10:24 +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
>> - Create the new READY state, and encourage triagers to manually move
>> ready bugs into it.
>
> Don't we already have such a distinction: UNCONFIRMED vs. NEW?
> What does this *additional* distinction add?

At this stage, I'm going to say that adding a new READY state will
likely cause some procedural furor. I can sometimes see the need for a
distinction between bugs that are not sufficiently reproducible to be
fixable but clearly exist among a large sector of the user population
(e.g., <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=451118>) and the
bugs whose existence may be in question or bugs whose fixes are, in
principle, known.

That said, the more useful place to stick the state, in my eyes, is
between UNCO and NEW, not between NEW and ASSI as is the current proposal.

> I'd love to have a way to un-confirm a bug, though. (That is, move
> it from NEW to UNCONFIRMED, because it shouldn't have been
> confirmed.)

This, on the other hand, I would gladly welcome. Some of the components
I triage have large numbers of NEW bugs which were confirmed in days
when the bar was rather low.

>> - Abolish the REOPENED state (automatically converting all existing
>> REOPENED bugs to NEW) as it adds no useful information.
>
> Sounds reasonable to me.

+<however much my vote counts for>

Aakash Desai

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Mar 31, 2009, 11:57:54 AM3/31/09
to L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
I'm not sure that I agree with abolishing the Re-Opened state on a semantic level. The Re-Opened state is used as a marker to community members (whether they're involved or not involved with fixing the bug) that this bug already has had a patch created and was reviewed before being submitted. Now, from what I can gather, a bug that goes to Re-Opened status usually means that it failed on a specific platform, certain use case failed or it broke another function. On the other hand, the New state means that the bug has been unconfirmed and it's either in the process of being assigned to a developer (semantics again because bugs stay in the New state even after they're assigned) and/or a patch has not been created for it. I think moving a bug back to the New state should be possible, but the Re-opened state does have a lot of use to it to people not involved with the bug.

As for a guide to go from state to state for a bug, there's one posted here: http://quality.mozilla.org/bugs-life-walkthrough . It's a beginner's guide, so there's still some kinks (i.e. screenshots, specific reasons for going from one state to the other) that need to be ironed out or put into an Advanced version of the document.

Lastly, there's still some problems with the workflow diagram linked to in Gervase's e-mail. For the lazy, the link is http://steelgryphon.com/testcases/bugzilla-workflow-9.png . Here are my gripes on it:

- WontFix is not just for enhancements
- If a bug is found under inappropriate conditions, then the bug is Invalid, not WorksForMe. If it's not found in the scenario that the bug reporter listed, then it's a WorksForMe.

Thanks,
Aakash

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. David Baron" <dba...@dbaron.org>
To: dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:00:09 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: bugzilla.mozilla.org workflow changes

On Tuesday 2009-03-31 10:24 +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
> - Create the new READY state, and encourage triagers to manually move
> ready bugs into it.

Don't we already have such a distinction: UNCONFIRMED vs. NEW?
What does this *additional* distinction add?

I'd love to have a way to un-confirm a bug, though. (That is, move


it from NEW to UNCONFIRMED, because it shouldn't have been
confirmed.)

> - Abolish the REOPENED state (automatically converting all existing


> REOPENED bugs to NEW) as it adds no useful information.

Sounds reasonable to me.

-David

Mike Shaver

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:09:41 PM3/31/09
to Joshua Cranmer, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Joshua Cranmer <Pidg...@verizon.net> wrote:
> That said, the more useful place to stick the state, in my eyes, is between
> UNCO and NEW, not between NEW and ASSI as is the current proposal.

I propose a zero-net-complexity rule for our bugzilla. If you add a
state, you have to remove one. REOPENED and ASSIGNED are both pretty
much useless to us, not carrying their weight in terms of clutter or
complexity. WONTFIX/INVALID might be foldable too, since it's not
like WONTFIX keeps us from having people re-ask, and I don't think we
ever really care about distinguishing "what you're asking for is not
going to happen" and "what you asked doesn't make sense or is a bug in
some other piece of software or wtf are you trying to say etc." beyond
what would be expressed in the closing comment.

(I'd like to say that if you add a flag you have to remove one, but
when all we have is flags/keywords/whiteboard-tribal-knowledge, every
problem looks like a [?-+ parity:investigate]. See also the co-opting
of priority field for shade-of-blocker, squatting a useful management
and planning tool for module owners and managers.)

See also: QA contact and Hardware fields, IMO. If we didn't have
bugzilla right now, this is definitely not the system we'd build.

Here are the things I care about as an engineering/product manager:

- what bugs have had work done on them?
- what bugs are assigned to which people (loading)? what reviews?
- what bugs block the given release?
- what is the rate of addition to the blocker list? what is the rate
of fix (to trunk, and to a given release stream)? (likewise for
security and crash bugs, and untriaged/new bugs)
- what bugs have patches? what bugs have test cases?
- what open bugs haven't been touched in a while?
- what bugs are being reported against which newly-released versions
or milestones?

As a developer, also I care about:

- what bugs need a comment from me?
- what bugs of mine are ready to land on which branches?
- what bugs have an updated patch for re-review?
- where do I put a comment in a bug so that it gets pulled into
release notes or a changelog?
- what bugs have clear regression ranges?
- in what *@(#&*@*#&@ component should I file this bug I just found?
- why can I still not watch components?

As a user and product advocate, I care about:
- are you really telling me that there's nowhere to file a bug about a
layout problem in Firefox without clicking through "Other Products"
and looking through the list of Java crypto software and webtools?
- how to not be mortified when someone asks where to file a bug, and
what all the twiddles mean
- how to do anything but nod sadly when someone says "I didn't have
time to figure out how to file that bug"

I don't think these states are really going to help me answer many of
these things, so I'm loath to take much additional complexity or time
investment for it.

Mike Shaver

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:14:57 PM3/31/09
to Aakash Desai, L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Aakash Desai <ade...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure that I agree with abolishing the Re-Opened state on a semantic level. The Re-Opened state is used as a marker to community members (whether they're involved or not involved with fixing the bug) that this bug already has had a patch created and was reviewed before being submitted. Now, from what I can gather, a bug that goes to Re-Opened status usually means that it failed on a specific platform, certain use case failed or it broke another function. On the other hand, the New state means that the bug has been unconfirmed and it's either in the process of being assigned to a developer (semantics again because bugs stay in the New state even after they're assigned) and/or a patch has not been created for it. I think moving a bug back to the New state should be possible, but the Re-opened state does have a lot of use to it to people not involved with the bug.

I don't think REOPENED tells you much that you don't have to read the
bug to confirm, at which point the state isn't useful. At most,
REOPENEDness should be a keyword like "regression" so that the 0.3% of
people who would query on it can do so without adding more state-space
for the rest of the world.

> As for a guide to go from state to state for a bug, there's one posted here: http://quality.mozilla.org/bugs-life-walkthrough . It's a beginner's guide, so there's still some kinks (i.e. screenshots, specific reasons for going from one state to the other) that need to be ironed out or put into an Advanced version of the document.

If the beginner's guide doesn't fit in 500 words and a 800x600 image,
we should streamline the process until it does, IMO.

> - If a bug is found under inappropriate conditions, then the bug is Invalid, not WorksForMe. If it's not found in the scenario that the bug reporter listed, then it's a WorksForMe.

Most people don't care about that, though. They care about:

- we don't know wtf about this bug
- this bug will be fixed
- when (as in which release stream, as well as date)
- this bug won't be fixed (why not is a detail)
- this bug has been fixed in (pick-N release streams/versions/dates)

It's only to the twisted mind of a developer that "INVALID" is a form
"resolved"; likewise with WONTFIX, I think.

Mike

Joshua Cranmer

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:25:49 PM3/31/09
to
Mike Shaver wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Joshua Cranmer <Pidg...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> That said, the more useful place to stick the state, in my eyes, is between
>> UNCO and NEW, not between NEW and ASSI as is the current proposal.

For clarification: I'm not exactly in favor of adding a new state, but
I'm not altogether opposed to one in theory.

> See also: QA contact and Hardware fields, IMO. If we didn't have
> bugzilla right now, this is definitely not the system we'd build.

Is there a way to watch components without utilizing QA contact? If
there is, feel free to make that information more widely visible and
then get rid of it.

> As a developer, also I care about:
>
> - what bugs need a comment from me?
> - what bugs of mine are ready to land on which branches?
> - what bugs have an updated patch for re-review?
> - where do I put a comment in a bug so that it gets pulled into
> release notes or a changelog?
> - what bugs have clear regression ranges?
> - in what *@(#&*@*#&@ component should I file this bug I just found?
> - why can I still not watch components?

As a potential developer:
- which bugs would people like to me fix?
- which bugs are people not working on?

> I don't think these states are really going to help me answer many of
> these things, so I'm loath to take much additional complexity or time
> investment for it.

I find the ASSI state useful, in that I can distinguish between "I'll
look at fixing this bug if I have time" and "I'm going to commit to
fixing this bug." On the other hand, REOP is not very useful for any of
my bug grepping strategies.

Aakash Desai

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:51:42 PM3/31/09
to Mike Shaver, L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
> I don't think REOPENED tells you much that you don't have to read the
bug to confirm, at which point the state isn't useful. At most,
REOPENEDness should be a keyword like "regression" so that the 0.3% of
people who would query on it can do so without adding more state-space
for the rest of the world.

Adding it as a keyword is fine and dandy for me as long as it's not completely removed from the system. Re-Openedness is something that's going to be seen in the wild when working on cross platform projects and it should be taken into account, no matter how good we are at handling them or how "small" of a number they begin to show up in our system.

> If the beginner's guide doesn't fit in 500 words and a 800x600 image,
we should streamline the process until it does, IMO.

We should really ask if all beginner's guides need to fit into a 500 word document or something hard-set like that. For me, if we're using something as complex as this: http://www.bugzilla.org/docs/tip/en/html/lifecycle.html ... sometimes writing a bit more is necessary to really explain it. Now, how the reader sees the information splayed out onto the screen is probably where you're getting at. In that light, yeah sure, I did say there were some kinks that needed to be ironed out :). We don't want to scare away potential volunteers, but having that information up in that form, for now, is a better alternative than not having it up at all.

> Most people don't care about that, though. They care about:
- we don't know wtf about this bug
- this bug will be fixed
- when (as in which release stream, as well as date)
- this bug won't be fixed (why not is a detail)
- this bug has been fixed in (pick-N release streams/versions/dates)
It's only to the twisted mind of a developer that "INVALID" is a form
"resolved"; likewise with WONTFIX, I think.

Developers aren't the only ones reading and changing the states on these bugs. There's a whole host of people external to Mozilla's community that read through this bug system (or we hope read through it) that don't understand how it works. If we start blurring the lines of what each state means, so it's easier for a developer to read, then we're not doing our job in trying to get more of the community involved.

Thanks,
Aakash

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Shaver" <mike....@gmail.com>
To: "Aakash Desai" <ade...@mozilla.com>
Cc: "L. David Baron" <dba...@dbaron.org>, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:14:57 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: bugzilla.mozilla.org workflow changes

Michael Connor

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:51:54 PM3/31/09
to Aakash Desai, L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org

On 31-Mar-09, at 11:57 AM, Aakash Desai wrote:

> Lastly, there's still some problems with the workflow diagram linked
> to in Gervase's e-mail. For the lazy, the link is http://steelgryphon.com/testcases/bugzilla-workflow-9.png
> . Here are my gripes on it:
>
> - WontFix is not just for enhancements

It doesn't cover every single possible workflow, but it's somewhat
idealized. WONTFIX vs. INVALID is often a grey area, IMO.

> - If a bug is found under inappropriate conditions, then the bug is
> Invalid, not WorksForMe. If it's not found in the scenario that the
> bug reporter listed, then it's a WorksForMe.

The assumption made in the "can it be reproduced under appropriate
conditions?" decision point is that you follow the STR, and can't repro.

-- Mike

Serge Gautherie

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:52:09 PM3/31/09
to
L. David Baron wrote:

> I'd love to have a way to un-confirm a bug, though. (That is, move
> it from NEW to UNCONFIRMED, because it shouldn't have been
> confirmed.)

I concur:
NEW would then mean "ready" somehow;
UNCONFIRMED would mean "needs triage", as it already does.

Boris Zbarsky

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:54:52 PM3/31/09
to
Aakash Desai wrote:
> Developers aren't the only ones reading and changing the states on these bugs. There's a whole host of people external to Mozilla's community that read through this bug system (or we hope read through it) that don't understand how it works. If we start blurring the lines of what each state means, so it's easier for a developer to read, then we're not doing our job in trying to get more of the community involved.

Shaver's point was that non-developers are the ones who don't care about
WONTFIX vs INVALID. The care about whether the behavior will change or not.

-Boris

Serge Gautherie

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Mar 31, 2009, 12:56:57 PM3/31/09
to
Benjamin Smedberg wrote:

> It's like ASSIGNED: while there may be some theoretical difference between
> ASSIGNED and NEW, I haven't seen most developers use the ASSIGNED state.

I'm sad about that:
ASSIGNED should mean someone is actually (planning on) working on it.
Whereas "Assigned To" (+ NEW) is more like asking someone to, or that he
may/will but not yet.
Helps to see (in the graphs) which/how_many bugs are (supposedly)
currently taken care of (among all the open bugs).

Serge Gautherie

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:00:47 PM3/31/09
to
Gervase Markham wrote:

> - Abolish the REOPENED state (automatically converting all existing
> REOPENED bugs to NEW) as it adds no useful information.

I don't know. I usualy see two typical cases:

1) bugs which were (thought) fixed:
Reopen is usually a backout or a regression or needs additional changes.
This REOPENED I see as a kind of a priority todo.

2) bugs which were thought invalid/duplicates/etc:
These I wish they could go back (directly) to their previous state
instead of REOPENED.

Igor Bukanov

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:00:41 PM3/31/09
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
2009/3/31 Serge Gautherie <sgauth...@free.fr>:

That is a good point. So what about renaming NEW to simply OPEN? This
would be especially relevant given that now REOPEN means to transition
into that state.

Igor

Aakash Desai

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:03:25 PM3/31/09
to Michael Connor, L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
> It doesn't cover every single possible workflow, but it's somewhat
idealized. WONTFIX vs. INVALID is often a grey area, IMO.

That's great that there's an understanding of the issue known behind the diagram, but it's still community facing. The gray area doesn't belong to people that are read through this diagram for the first time. Those things are learned when they're dealing with bugzilla in the wild. The purpose of any set of documentation is create clarity out of an unclear situation and allow the reader to ask questions that build their knowledge of the system. It's not supposed to force the reader to ask questions about how the system should work as its base.

> The assumption made in the "can it be reproduced under appropriate
conditions?" decision point is that you follow the STR, and can't repro.

Following the STR and not being able to reproduce the problem can occur from misunderstandings of how people comprehend the steps. That definitely doesn't inherently make a bug invalid.

-- Aakash



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Connor" <mco...@mozilla.com>
To: "Aakash Desai" <ade...@mozilla.com>
Cc: "L. David Baron" <dba...@dbaron.org>, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:51:54 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: bugzilla.mozilla.org workflow changes

Frédéric Buclin

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:12:08 PM3/31/09
to
Le 31. 03. 09 17:00, L. David Baron a écrit :

> I'd love to have a way to un-confirm a bug, though. (That is, move
> it from NEW to UNCONFIRMED, because it shouldn't have been
> confirmed.)

You can already do that since Bugzilla 3.2. b.m.o has this NEW -> UNCO
bug status transition disabled.

LpSolit

Frédéric Buclin

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:14:27 PM3/31/09
to
Le 31. 03. 09 18:25, Joshua Cranmer a écrit :

> Is there a way to watch components without utilizing QA contact? If
> there is, feel free to make that information more widely visible and
> then get rid of it.

No, you currently cannot watch components. Which is why each component
has its own default QA contact.

LpSolit

Boris Zbarsky

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:22:56 PM3/31/09
to
Frédéric Buclin wrote:
> You can already do that since Bugzilla 3.2. b.m.o has this NEW -> UNCO
> bug status transition disabled.

Uh... how hard would it be to ... undo that? With a vengeance.

-Boris

Aakash Desai

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:24:30 PM3/31/09
to Boris Zbarsky, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
That's what I'm writing about as well. My point is that if we don't take the time and effort to be clear as possible to the community (because they deserve it for helping us out in their many contributions) for a system that we ASK them to use, why should they go the extra mile to write clear and concise bug reports and take part in our process? I'd just like to have excellent community facing technical documentation to be easy and comfortable in its logic processes no matter what we think the intended audience wants.

-- Aakash

----- Original Message -----
From: "Boris Zbarsky" <bzba...@mit.edu>
To: dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:54:52 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: bugzilla.mozilla.org workflow changes

-Boris

Benjamin Smedberg

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:28:35 PM3/31/09
to
On 3/31/09 12:56 PM, Serge Gautherie wrote:
> Benjamin Smedberg wrote:
>
>> It's like ASSIGNED: while there may be some theoretical difference
>> between
>> ASSIGNED and NEW, I haven't seen most developers use the ASSIGNED state.
>
> I'm sad about that:
> ASSIGNED should mean someone is actually (planning on) working on it.
> Whereas "Assigned To" (+ NEW) is more like asking someone to, or that he
> may/will but not yet.

I think the answer to that is/should be: if you're not actively working on
it, don't assign it to yourself. If you want to track bugs you're interested
in perhaps working on in the future, use personal bug tags.

--BDS

L. David Baron

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:29:11 PM3/31/09
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org

I filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=486144 on
enabling this feature.

Frédéric Buclin

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:36:51 PM3/31/09
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Le 31. 03. 09 19:22, Boris Zbarsky a écrit :

>> You can already do that since Bugzilla 3.2. b.m.o has this NEW -> UNCO
>> bug status transition disabled.
>
> Uh... how hard would it be to ... undo that? With a vengeance.

It's trivial. The checkbox for the NEW -> UNCO transition is currently
unchecked. Just enable it and you can use it immediately.

LpSolit

Michael Connor

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:46:23 PM3/31/09
to Mike Shaver, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org

On 31-Mar-09, at 12:09 PM, Mike Shaver wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Joshua Cranmer <Pidg...@verizon.net
> > wrote:

>> That said, the more useful place to stick the state, in my eyes, is
>> between
>> UNCO and NEW, not between NEW and ASSI as is the current proposal.
>

> I propose a zero-net-complexity rule for our bugzilla. If you add a
> state, you have to remove one. REOPENED and ASSIGNED are both pretty
> much useless to us, not carrying their weight in terms of clutter or
> complexity. WONTFIX/INVALID might be foldable too, since it's not
> like WONTFIX keeps us from having people re-ask, and I don't think we
> ever really care about distinguishing "what you're asking for is not
> going to happen" and "what you asked doesn't make sense or is a bug in
> some other piece of software or wtf are you trying to say etc." beyond
> what would be expressed in the closing comment.

I agree with this sentiment. ASSIGNED and REOPENED can both die, IMO.

That said, I think we have three states we care about:

* Someone reported a bug
* We can reproduce this bug following STR, and more investigation is
warranted.
* We understand this bug and have determined we should fix it, and
have the information needed to fix it.

> (I'd like to say that if you add a flag you have to remove one, but
> when all we have is flags/keywords/whiteboard-tribal-knowledge, every
> problem looks like a [?-+ parity:investigate]. See also the co-opting
> of priority field for shade-of-blocker, squatting a useful management
> and planning tool for module owners and managers.)

Yes, we need a better flag system. Working with the tools we have,
etc. Insane pile-o-flags was a lot worse.

> As a developer, also I care about:
>

> - what bugs have clear regression ranges?

Breaking this out, what you really care about is probably more like:

- what bugs have the information needed to just fix the bug.

This is some combination of testcase ready, regression window found,

> As a user and product advocate, I care about:
> - are you really telling me that there's nowhere to file a bug about a
> layout problem in Firefox without clicking through "Other Products"
> and looking through the list of Java crypto software and webtools?
> - how to not be mortified when someone asks where to file a bug, and
> what all the twiddles mean
> - how to do anything but nod sadly when someone says "I didn't have
> time to figure out how to file that bug"


These changes are explicitly designed to solve these problems. The
intent is that the initial bug filing experience, for someone without
bmo privs, can be made simple:

What are you reporting a bug in? Firefox
Can you give us a short summary of the problem? The foozit is broken.
Please give details on how to reproduce this problem? When I click on
the foozit on http://example.com, the foozit blorbles.

That gets dumped to Firefox::General (or, since stuff legitimately
lives there, Firefox::Needs Triage). Then we have a first pass of
triage, which is very fast, basically:

* Is this an RFE or a bug?
** If it's a bug, can I reproduce given the STR?
* If yes, confirm and move to the correct component, unless it's an
obvious dupe.
* If no, give people information on support/filing better bugs/etc and
close the bug.

Basically, this is splitting the traditionally overloaded UNCO vs. NEW
status change into two steps: something anyone can do and then
something requiring deeper knowledge, and removing the need for users
to deal with anything more complicated than telling us their problem.

-- Mike

Michael Connor

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:47:00 PM3/31/09
to Aakash Desai, L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org

On 31-Mar-09, at 1:03 PM, Aakash Desai wrote:

>> It doesn't cover every single possible workflow, but it's somewhat
> idealized. WONTFIX vs. INVALID is often a grey area, IMO.
>
> That's great that there's an understanding of the issue known behind
> the diagram, but it's still community facing. The gray area doesn't
> belong to people that are read through this diagram for the first
> time. Those things are learned when they're dealing with bugzilla in
> the wild. The purpose of any set of documentation is create clarity
> out of an unclear situation and allow the reader to ask questions
> that build their knowledge of the system. It's not supposed to force
> the reader to ask questions about how the system should work as its
> base.

Shaver already mentioned this, as a "we should just collapse those two
together" idea. Basically, the idea is to change process to be
simpler, and avoid grey areas. This was a proposal for how we should
be doing things, rather than documentation on what we do now.

>> The assumption made in the "can it be reproduced under appropriate
> conditions?" decision point is that you follow the STR, and can't
> repro.
>
> Following the STR and not being able to reproduce the problem can
> occur from misunderstandings of how people comprehend the steps.
> That definitely doesn't inherently make a bug invalid.

We have historically had a very low rate of return on digging into
poorly-filed bugs. The intent is "try the STR on the same platform,
if it doesn't work, resolve and move on" as the approach to triage.
Common bugs will be filed again, with better STR. Trust me on that one.

-- Mike

Mike Shaver

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:49:12 PM3/31/09
to Aakash Desai, L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Aakash Desai <ade...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> Re-Openedness is something that's going to be seen in the wild when working on cross platform projects and it should be taken into account

I don't know what cross-platformness has to do with it, since REOPENED
doesn't mean "regressed something", it means "was backed out" or "fix
didn't work".

> no matter how good we are at handling them or how "small" of a number they begin to show up in our system.

No, the amount of cost (complexity, confusion, visual noise) we
(users, developers, administrators) should bear is definitely related
to how common the cases are in which the capability gives us value.

>> If the beginner's guide doesn't fit in 500 words and a 800x600 image,
> we should streamline the process until it does, IMO.
>
> We should really ask if all beginner's guides need to fit into a 500 word document or something hard-set like that. For me, if we're using something as complex as this: http://www.bugzilla.org/docs/tip/en/html/lifecycle.html ... sometimes writing a bit more is necessary to really explain it.

That's exactly my point: our process is too complicated.

>> Most people don't care about that, though.  They care about:
> - we don't know wtf about this bug
> - this bug will be fixed
> - when (as in which release stream, as well as date)
> - this bug won't be fixed (why not is a detail)
> - this bug has been fixed in (pick-N release streams/versions/dates)
> It's only to the twisted mind of a developer that "INVALID" is a form
> "resolved"; likewise with WONTFIX, I think.
>

> Developers aren't the only ones reading and changing the states on these bugs.

I know -- those are the things that bug reporters and followers-on care about.

> There's a whole host of people external to Mozilla's community that read through this bug system (or we hope read through it) that don't understand how it works. If we start blurring the lines of what each state means, so it's easier for a developer to read, then we're not doing our job in trying to get more of the community involved.

People report bugs in order to have action taken on them. They care
about understanding what action is being taken, and what outcome
results, but they also very much care that the action _is_ taken,
which means they have a vestd interest in developers being able to
work with the bugs effectively and avoid things being dropped or
delayed unnecessarily.

It's not like bugzilla is currently optimized for our developers at
the expense of our users -- it's not really optimal for anyone.

Mike

Michael Connor

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:54:22 PM3/31/09
to L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org

On 31-Mar-09, at 11:00 AM, L. David Baron wrote:

> On Tuesday 2009-03-31 10:24 +0100, Gervase Markham wrote:
>> - Create the new READY state, and encourage triagers to manually move
>> ready bugs into it.
>
> Don't we already have such a distinction: UNCONFIRMED vs. NEW?
> What does this *additional* distinction add?

I think the problem is that this is overloaded. NEW in layout means a
lot of things (it is a bug under the spec + has a testcase + lunar
alignment is positive, etc), and effectively creates a barrier to
entry for anyone touching layout bugs. Of course, in my ideal
workflow, UNCO bugs are in a big bucket away from components we're
using for actual work. Only when we can reproduce issues does it get
onto developer/QA radar.

A major goal is that UNCO->NEW is stage one of a filtering process,
and our overtaxed QA people (i.e. the people who create testcases and
find regression windows) can save time by only focusing on bugs people
can actually reproduce.

-- Mike

Frédéric Buclin

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:55:51 PM3/31/09
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Le 31. 03. 09 19:49, Mike Shaver a écrit :

> It's not like bugzilla is currently optimized for our developers at
> the expense of our users -- it's not really optimal for anyone.

Do you have concrete proposals? And if possible which is not limited to
Fx teams.

LpSolit

Michael Connor

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Mar 31, 2009, 1:57:19 PM3/31/09
to Mike Shaver, L. David Baron, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org, Aakash Desai

On 31-Mar-09, at 1:49 PM, Mike Shaver wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Aakash Desai <ade...@mozilla.com>
> wrote:
>> Re-Openedness is something that's going to be seen in the wild when
>> working on cross platform projects and it should be taken into
>> account
>
> I don't know what cross-platformness has to do with it, since REOPENED
> doesn't mean "regressed something", it means "was backed out" or "fix
> didn't work".

Or "no, it shouldn't be INVALID/WONTFIX/etc." It really only means
"this was closed, now it isn't" which isn't of a lot of use.

-- Mike

Mike Shaver

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Mar 31, 2009, 2:08:23 PM3/31/09
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
2009/3/31 Frédéric Buclin <LpS...@gmail.com>:

Don't rub it it. :(

Mike

Phil Ringnalda

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Mar 31, 2009, 2:31:59 PM3/31/09
to
On 3/31/2009 9:09 AM, Mike Shaver wrote:
> I propose a zero-net-complexity rule for our bugzilla. If you add a
> state, you have to remove one. REOPENED and ASSIGNED are both pretty
> much useless to us

Not that I expect *anything* to happen from all this after all the
previous iterations of sound-n-fury, but, please don't remove ASSI until
after Tb3 ships. We're overloading it so that
blockingTb3/assignee=driver/NEW means that driver is assigned the task
of finding an owner and blockingTb3/assignee=driver/ASSI means that
driver happens to be the person who is fixing the bug.

Reed Loden

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Mar 31, 2009, 2:39:05 PM3/31/09
to Mike Shaver, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:09:41 -0400
Mike Shaver <mike....@gmail.com> wrote:

> I propose a zero-net-complexity rule for our bugzilla. If you add a
> state, you have to remove one. REOPENED and ASSIGNED are both pretty
> much useless to us

Not sure who the "us" is, but I personally use ASSIGNED all the time to
track bugs I'm actively working on versus ones that are just assigned
to me to get to sometime. I would be very unhappy if it just suddenly
disappeared, as I would have to resort to using status whiteboard
entries, which aren't very easy to maintain.

~reed

--
Reed Loden - <re...@reedloden.com>

timeless

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Mar 31, 2009, 2:55:35 PM3/31/09
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Mike Shaver <mike....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't rub it it. :(

Sorry, I just had to rub it *in* :(

Michael Connor

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Mar 31, 2009, 3:41:53 PM3/31/09