l10n freeze? Where??
Michele Dal Corso
l10n freeze, but I can't see this freeze:
The late bug 340677, checked in by Jeff Walden, caused me a big
headache: I lost a lot of good translations, because the name/location
changes of strings between files and l10n tools are not able to follow
the string journeys... In addition to this all access keys of preference
window should be revamped.
Nothing bad if Firefox interface changes, but why not alert
translators that a big change is pending? Two words in this l10n group
could save a lot of wasted translation time...
However, why today I can see 4 (four) more checkins in the 1.8 branch
(both toolkit and browser component) during this short l10n freeze? If
you (mozilla developer) couldn't wait that b1 goes out, why the mozilla
folks doesn't make a *real* and *serius* l10n freeze (if necessary
shorter than the actual) as in the past Mozilla Suite developing model?
Since Firefox is a lot more widespread in non-anglophone countries
(http://www.xitimonitor.com/etudes/equipement14.asp ) why you continue
consider the l10n stuff as a secondary thing on your developing plans?
I know that Axel is doing a lot of work about this, but I can't see a
clear change of direction from the past and I am tired about wasting my
free time on these things.
Last but not least: in the Italian Firefox start page appeared a new
snippet that publicize Yoga companion add-ons. I don't know who
translated that snippet, surely not me or Francesco. The translation:
"Non si perda un solo goal. Risultati. Video. Tifosi. Ancora più
informazioni."
is really ridiculous...
Michele Dal Corso
it-owner
Giacomo Magnini
2.0, please solve the absurd situation regarding DOM Inspector.
Some translations [1] are missing and will not be accepted since the
installer size would grow too much this way: but what is stopping
MoCo/MoFo to ship only DOMI de locale with the de build, fr DOMI locale
with the fr build, and so on, without pissing on the missing locales
with such an excuse?
And btw, it would be about time to make the whole DOMI package *fully*
localizable [2], since the bug has been left open for about 2 years and
is going to miss another milestone.
It is about time to show some commitment to l10n work instead of just
promising "more attention the future"...
Cheers, Giacomo.
[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311079
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=282665
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=316324
[2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264748
Mike Connor
> I noticed from a previous post of Axel that from 15 June started the
> l10n freeze, but I can't see this freeze:
From Axel's post on 5/31: "We'll lock down major string changes two
weeks before code freeze for b1. String freeze is going to be b2. "
June 15th was not ever going to be a hard freeze, it was a deadline for
new files and major changesets (we were about a day late in the one
instance). Sorry if that wasn't made explicit enough.
> The late bug 340677, checked in by Jeff Walden, caused me a big
> headache: I lost a lot of good translations, because the name/location
> changes of strings between files and l10n tools are not able to follow
> the string journeys... In addition to this all access keys of preference
> window should be revamped.
More warning would have helped some, but the tools not being able to
follow moves is not something we can fix on our end. If this had
happened two weeks ago, the big problem would have been the same.
> Nothing bad if Firefox interface changes, but why not alert
> translators that a big change is pending? Two words in this l10n group
> could save a lot of wasted translation time...
This was partly my fault, though this was announced on June 17th, so if
this happened today, you missed your heads-up. Perhaps in the future we
should make a more formal announcement.
> However, why today I can see 4 (four) more checkins in the 1.8 branch
> (both toolkit and browser component) during this short l10n freeze? If
> you (mozilla developer) couldn't wait that b1 goes out, why the mozilla
> folks doesn't make a *real* and *serius* l10n freeze (if necessary
> shorter than the actual) as in the past Mozilla Suite developing model?
We're going to freeze l10n pretty solidly around b1 (which is still over
two months ahead of the projected release). Some tweaks might appear in
the b2 cycle, but I'm hoping to keep those to a minimum. The June 15th
freeze was for major changes (which Jeff's landing missed by a day or
so). Smaller changes will continue to be taken for the next two weeks.
> Since Firefox is a lot more widespread in non-anglophone countries
> (http://www.xitimonitor.com/etudes/equipement14.asp ) why you continue
> consider the l10n stuff as a secondary thing on your developing plans?
l10n is very important, and I've been pushing hard to get the big pieces
in place so you can get a head start. We did miss the planned deadline
for big pieces, so we got the strings landed, and posted about the late
landing. We still should have said something on the 15th that one more
big piece was coming, and I take responsibility for not being on top of
that.
> I know that Axel is doing a lot of work about this, but I can't see a
> clear change of direction from the past and I am tired about wasting my
> free time on these things.
If there's something I haven't addressed, or something different we
should be doing, please let me know. We're trying, as Axel has stated,
to get a number of major locales shipped around the same time as en-US
b1, in order to give those locales a longer testing cycle. If that's
not a big enough improvement, what would be?
> Last but not least: in the Italian Firefox start page appeared a new
> snippet that publicize Yoga companion add-ons. I don't know who
> translated that snippet, surely not me or Francesco. The translation:
> "Non si perda un solo goal. Risultati. Video. Tifosi. Ancora più
> informazioni."
> is really ridiculous...
I'm not sure, I'd guess Joga offhand, but that's certainly not official.
Mike Connor
Firefox Lead, Mozilla Corporation
Mike Connor
> I'll add a few things to what Michele wrote: before anything freezes for
> 2.0, please solve the absurd situation regarding DOM Inspector.
DOM Inspector is not going to be shipped as a core part of Firefox in
Fx2, see bug 339229
> Some translations [1] are missing and will not be accepted since the
> installer size would grow too much this way: but what is stopping
> MoCo/MoFo to ship only DOMI de locale with the de build, fr DOMI locale
> with the fr build, and so on, without pissing on the missing locales
> with such an excuse?
Resources, frankly. Because it was an optional piece, we couldn't just
replace ab-CD.jar as needed, we also would need to repackage DOMI with
the different locale, and that added more complexity than we could
handle at the time. Its a moot point now, as I said.
> It is about time to show some commitment to l10n work instead of just
> promising "more attention the future"...
Aside from DOMI, what concerns do you have? To reiterate, here's what
we're trying to do to help l10n:
- Locking down new files and major sets of string changes well
before final string freeze
(Done, with a little fuzz on the dates).
- Get trademark policy in places by b1.
(Coming soon, look for more details very soon, hopefully
in the next day or so)
- Early UI/string completion
(beta1, should be pretty close to what we ship in final,
late changes are unlikely)
- Aggressive post-b1 management and communication around all
string changes
(starts in July)
What other things do localizers need, and what other sources of pain are
you looking for us to fix?
pascal chevrel
> Last but not least: in the Italian Firefox start page appeared a new
> snippet that publicize Yoga companion add-ons. I don't know who
> translated that snippet, surely not me or Francesco. The translation:
> "Non si perda un solo goal. Risultati. Video. Tifosi. Ancora più
> informazioni."
> is really ridiculous...
>
> Michele Dal Corso
> it-owner
Michele, can you send me the correct translation ? I think I know who to
poke to get it fixed (hopefully) quickly.
If other locales notice the same translation quality problem in the
joga.com snippet on our start pages, please send me the right
translation to my email (pascal.chevrel AT free.fr).
Thanks,
Pascal
Francesco Lodolo
> Michele Dal Corso wrote:
>> I noticed from a previous post of Axel that from 15 June started the
>> l10n freeze, but I can't see this freeze:
> From Axel's post on 5/31: "We'll lock down major string changes two
> weeks before code freeze for b1. String freeze is going to be b2. "
wasn't so clear)
> That is the reason why we try to aggressively freeze the big l10n
> chunks. [...] Everything else should be small, *so this is a good time to
> start getting your locales up-to-date on the 1.8 branch*.
Just to avoid another waste of time, in that message Axel wrote
> mconnor is working to get help content partially on the web
I'm working on the localization of the Firefox 2.0 help (which seems
already out of date, for example about add-ons menu).
Can you give us some information about this "partially on the web" and a
timeline?
Francesco.
Michele Dal Corso
> June 15th was not ever going to be a hard freeze, it was a deadline for
> new files and major changesets (we were about a day late in the one
> instance). Sorry if that wasn't made explicit enough.
Thank you for this clarification.
Michele
Axel Hecht
> Mike Connor ha scritto:
>> Michele Dal Corso wrote:
>>> I noticed from a previous post of Axel that from 15 June started the
>>> l10n freeze, but I can't see this freeze:
>> From Axel's post on 5/31: "We'll lock down major string changes two
>> weeks before code freeze for b1. String freeze is going to be b2. "
> From the same Axel's message (just to point out that the situation
> wasn't so clear)
>> That is the reason why we try to aggressively freeze the big l10n
>> chunks. [...] Everything else should be small, *so this is a good time to
>> start getting your locales up-to-date on the 1.8 branch*.
> Just to avoid another waste of time, in that message Axel wrote
Ouch. Rereading that message I see that I missed a part of my brain in
that sentence.
The areas that I explicitly pointed at were things that are big and may
not make it in time. Sorry for the confusion. As Jeff pointed out, there
is hopefully only going to be string removals by a considerable amount
for the pref work.
NSIS installer is still open, in today's meeting we said we want to get
that fixed by Friday. Rob has a patch which takes us a good deal along
the way, but there are still some issues to resolve.
>> mconnor is working to get help content partially on the web
> I'm working on the localization of the Firefox 2.0 help (which seems
> already out of date, for example about add-ons menu).
> Can you give us some information about this "partially on the web" and a
> timeline?
Undecided as of today's meeting. Note that the content won't change, so
if you have improvements to land, you're welcome to do that. Though I in
general have no idea of how much help-revamp we'll be seeing.
Traditionally, help comes later than late.
Axel
Axel
Axel Hecht
> Giacomo Magnini wrote:
>> I'll add a few things to what Michele wrote: before anything freezes
>> for 2.0, please solve the absurd situation regarding DOM Inspector.
>
> DOM Inspector is not going to be shipped as a core part of Firefox in
> Fx2, see bug 339229
Three things, is that bug worked on? I don't see that much traction in
the two bugs.
And, this doesn't impact the l10n scheme for DOMI as is, is seperating
locale packs for DOMI still an item, or should DOMI versions on 2.0 ship
with all locales?
Which raises the third question, do we have a release manager for an
independent DOMI? That guy would have to throw the dices when it comes
down to l10n, IMHO. Where to host, when to pull, tree rules etc.
Axel
Jeff Walden
> I'm working on the localization of the Firefox 2.0 help (which seems
> already out of date, for example about add-ons menu).
This is a known problem, and I'm slowly reviewing these changes as I have time. (I also need to do some writing, as well, since I don't think I've done much help docs writing in a while.) For an idea on what we know about and what we don't know about, do a Bugzilla query in Firefox:Help Documentation for open bugs. I want to get to a bunch of these pretty soon, but I haven't had time recently, what with all the non-help bugs I've been working through. :-\
We'll make sure to keep m.d.l10n posted on help docs changes, tho, in case you might have been wondering.
Jeff
--
Rediscover the Web!
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Giacomo Magnini
disturbing at times, and I'd like to thank you Mike for taking the time
to answer and follow up in here: it's been very appreciated.
Mike Connor ha scritto:
> Giacomo Magnini wrote:
>> I'll add a few things to what Michele wrote: before anything freezes
>> for 2.0, please solve the absurd situation regarding DOM Inspector.
>
> DOM Inspector is not going to be shipped as a core part of Firefox in
> Fx2, see bug 339229
Good to know: was it announced anywhere? Why some people with cvs access
staed in bugs about including other translations that the thing had a
high priority? (see traditional chinese bug).
IMHO, closing all of the bugs (and more?) which I reported as WONTFIX
would have shown that attention on the subject was not lost, even if
probably the solution you (as MoCo) chose will not fit all of us.
But I agree that at very least a solution was adopted which is equal for
all of the teams.
> Resources, frankly. Because it was an optional piece, we couldn't just
> replace ab-CD.jar as needed, we also would need to repackage DOMI with
> the different locale, and that added more complexity than we could
> handle at the time. Its a moot point now, as I said.
Will not comment further on this, since, as you say, the point is moot.
>> It is about time to show some commitment to l10n work instead of just
>> promising "more attention the future"...
>
> Aside from DOMI, what concerns do you have? To reiterate, here's what
> we're trying to do to help l10n:
>
> - Locking down new files and major sets of string changes well
> before final string freeze
> (Done, with a little fuzz on the dates).
Good choice, and I hope that Jeff's example will be the model in the
future: bring in all of the strings even if the feature isn't complete,
and let the localizers attack the problem early. There qill be time
later for late-l10n bugs to refine and finalize the strings before
release, but the larger part of the work is already done.
Please consider allowing longer string freezes ( a few days, not weeks),
in case large changes slip in at a very late date or even after the
freeze: iirc, nsis installer strings are a good example.
> - Get trademark policy in places by b1.
> (Coming soon, look for more details very soon, hopefully
> in the next day or so)
Waiting for the details. Don't know if this is related, but we've seen
the translated EULA (I'm talking about the italina one only here).
We left the translation to you as we felt that a legal document was to
be treated by experienced people with some legal background, or even
lawyers with fluent Italian. So far, what we read is full of typos
(Moxilla instead of Mozilla, for example), many phrases are simply
nonsense, and a few words are simply wrong (being very similar to the
English ones, but they mean another thing or simply do not exist in
Italian).
We have many contacts with professional translators for many different
languages: I'm sure there is also someone experienced with legal mumble,
and the price to pay is not as big as you would think (and working for
Mozilla can be a good point for not being paid at all).
> - Early UI/string completion
> (beta1, should be pretty close to what we ship in final,
> late changes are unlikely)
Great, +10 points on this.
> - Aggressive post-b1 management and communication around all
> string changes
> (starts in July)
Another 10 points for this (if it sticks).
> What other things do localizers need, and what other sources of pain are
> you looking for us to fix?
These are just suggestions, so bear with me if they sound too theoretical.
1. Please consider making the string freeze period variable in length
with respect to the number of changes, especially if large bunches of
string do slip in just before or around the freeze (not all localizers
start working much before the freeze since they were burnt before with
lost work and such in the past).
2. Simplify string changes by localization teams, to fix typos,
accesskeys and maybe even resizing panels which do not fit (eg, mailnews
account window or a few pref panels): users will be gratefull because
someone fixed such a minor but visible glitch (you know, when you find a
bug, it is *your* bug and you like if someone cares about that).
This should hold for branch builds, too: it is unacceptable that I have
a pref panel which is not fully visible for a whole year (eg. 1.5 cycle).
Obviously this excludes everything which is
brand/trademark/bookmarks/eula(?) related, since this can have legal
implications we would like to avoid.
3. Consider updating the help docs contextually with the implementation
or redesign of features: this will alleviate the pressure on the people
dealing with help docs, which are usually very late in the game, and are
by no means easier to translate.
4. Start preparing snippets for the release in advance, not just 2-3
days before going public: a few localizers have a very large bunch of
pages to change in a very short time. And I guess the designers do know
which feature are going to make a release (this is amuch improved aspect
of the new philosophy in MoCo, I agree), and so do the marketers...
5. Please state in advance (yeah, even before string freeze) if there
are parts of the UI/docs which are still subject to changes (or are
under discussion of being cut or added, for example), so that localizers
will leave such sections as the last, probably saving lots of work and pain.
Hope this will help both of us to understand each other better.
TIA, Giacomo.
Axel Hecht
<...>
>> - Get trademark policy in places by b1.
>> (Coming soon, look for more details very soon, hopefully
>> in the next day or so)
>
> Waiting for the details. Don't know if this is related, but we've seen
> the translated EULA (I'm talking about the italina one only here).
> We left the translation to you as we felt that a legal document was to
> be treated by experienced people with some legal background, or even
> lawyers with fluent Italian. So far, what we read is full of typos
> (Moxilla instead of Mozilla, for example), many phrases are simply
> nonsense, and a few words are simply wrong (being very similar to the
> English ones, but they mean another thing or simply do not exist in
> Italian).
> We have many contacts with professional translators for many different
> languages: I'm sure there is also someone experienced with legal mumble,
> and the price to pay is not as big as you would think (and working for
> Mozilla can be a good point for not being paid at all).
>
Let me get the reply on this one out first, do we talk about the stuff
on http://www.mozilla.com/legal/eula/? If so, please file a bug, or, if
you already did, CC me on it?
We need that to fix it at first, and to evaluate our external partners
there, too.
CCing Gerv to have this on his radar, Gerv, feel free to forward this as
appropriate.
Axel
Giacomo Magnini
> Let me get the reply on this one out first, do we talk about the stuff
> on http://www.mozilla.com/legal/eula/? If so, please file a bug, or, if
> you already did, CC me on it?
Yes, I was referring exactly to firefox-it.html in there. I'll open a
bug if you tell me where to file it (eg. component), and what you really
want us to report in there: since we are speaking different languages it
will not be easy to go back and forth on the matter...
> CCing Gerv to have this on his radar, Gerv, feel free to forward this as
> appropriate.
I've CC'ed also the reply, just in case.
Cheers, Giacomo.
Giacomo Magnini
> Let me get the reply on this one out first, do we talk about the stuff
> on http://www.mozilla.com/legal/eula/? If so, please file a bug, or, if
> you already did, CC me on it?
Yes, I was referring exactly to firefox-it.html in there. I'll open a
bug if you tell me where to file it (eg. component), and what you really
want us to report in there: since we are speaking different languages it
will not be easy to go back and forth on the matter...
> CCing Gerv to have this on his radar, Gerv, feel free to forward this as
> appropriate.
I've CC'ed also the reply, just in case.
Cheers, Giacomo.
Giacomo Magnini
> Let me get the reply on this one out first, do we talk about the stuff
> on http://www.mozilla.com/legal/eula/? If so, please file a bug, or, if
> you already did, CC me on it?
Yes, I was referring exactly to firefox-it.html in there. I'll open a
bug if you tell me where to file it (eg. component), and what you really
want us to report in there: since we are speaking different languages it
will not be easy to go back and forth on the matter...
> CCing Gerv to have this on his radar, Gerv, feel free to forward this as
> appropriate.
I've CC'ed also the reply, just in case.
Cheers, Giacomo.
Axel Hecht
There's apparently more to it, and we forgot what it was, or so. The
folks that should know are on vacation right now, so I'll need to follow
up on that later.
Axel
Ricardo Palomares Martinez
> Giacomo Magnini wrote:
>> Axel Hecht wrote:
>>> Let me get the reply on this one out first, do we talk about the
>>> stuff on http://www.mozilla.com/legal/eula/? If so, please file a
>>> bug, or, if you already did, CC me on it?
>>
>
> folks that should know are on vacation right now, so I'll need to follow
> up on that later.
Since Giacomo brough this topic on, I asked for help in our es-ES l10n
mailing list and some people stepped on, pointing out some errors in
spanish translation, too (the biggest of which is translating
"browser" to the spanish word for "search engine").
So, when are the legal guys finishing their holidays? :-)
--
If it's true that we are here to help others,
then what exactly are the OTHERS here for?
Ricardo Palomares Martinez
> Since Giacomo brough this topic on, I asked for help in our es-ES l10n
> mailing list and some people stepped on, pointing out some errors in
> spanish translation, too (the biggest of which is translating
> "browser" to the spanish word for "search engine").
>
> So, when are the legal guys finishing their holidays? :-)
>
Any news on this, Axel? As I see it, if MoFo (or Mo Corp.) pays to get
an "as official as possible" translation of the EULA, ideally someone
else should do a review of the result and issue a report to be handed
back to the paid translator.
In the end, the paid translator would have the final word about the
result, but reviewing your own work is more boring and prone to be
done in a superficial way, even if you get paid. :-)
Ricardo.
Axel Hecht
> Ricardo Palomares Martinez escribió:
>> Since Giacomo brough this topic on, I asked for help in our es-ES l10n
>> mailing list and some people stepped on, pointing out some errors in
>> spanish translation, too (the biggest of which is translating
>> "browser" to the spanish word for "search engine").
>>
>> So, when are the legal guys finishing their holidays? :-)
>>
>
>
> Any news on this, Axel? As I see it, if MoFo (or Mo Corp.) pays to get
> an "as official as possible" translation of the EULA, ideally someone
> else should do a review of the result and issue a report to be handed
> back to the paid translator.
>
> In the end, the paid translator would have the final word about the
> result, but reviewing your own work is more boring and prone to be
> done in a superficial way, even if you get paid. :-)
Both cbeard and Gerv have been out of office lately, I'll let them catch
up with email before poking again.
Axel