FirefoxOS localization for Bengali(India) : bn_IN

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Danishka Navin

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Nov 28, 2012, 5:18:56 AM11/28/12
to dev-l10n, priyanka nag, Staś Małolepszy
Hi,

One of my mentee willing to work on FirefoxOS l10n for Bengali(India):
bn_IN.

We can let her to work on the pootle if our Bengali experts could review
her work, as there is no bn_IN project for FirefoxOS l10n. [1]

Anyway she should get the required glosary files from the existing Bengali
(India) contributors.

[1] mozilla.locamotion.org

Copied to the mentee, Priyanka Nag.

Thanks,
--
Danishka Navin
http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/danishkanavin
http://www.flickr.com/photos/danishkanavin/

Dwayne Bailey

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Nov 28, 2012, 5:24:34 AM11/28/12
to Danishka Navin, priyanka nag, dev-l10n, Staś Małolepszy
On 28 November 2012 10:18, Danishka Navin <dani...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> One of my mentee willing to work on FirefoxOS l10n for Bengali(India):
> bn_IN.
>
> We can let her to work on the pootle if our Bengali experts could review
> her work, as there is no bn_IN project for FirefoxOS l10n. [1]
>
> Anyway she should get the required glosary files from the existing Bengali
> (India) contributors.
>

Sounds like a great idea, bn-IN team just let us know if you are happy and
I can enable this on mozilla.locamotion,org


>
> [1] mozilla.locamotion.org
>
> Copied to the mentee, Priyanka Nag.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Danishka Navin
> http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/danishkanavin
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/danishkanavin/
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>



--
Dwayne

*Translate*
+27 12 460 1095

Runa Bhattacharjee

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Nov 28, 2012, 11:13:19 PM11/28/12
to Dwayne Bailey, priyanka nag, dev-l10n, Staś Małolepszy, Danishka Navin
On বুধবার 28 নভেম্বর 2012 03:54 অপরাহ্ণ, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
> Sounds like a great idea, bn-IN team just let us know if you are happy and I
> can enable this on mozilla.locamotion,org
>
We had a discussion with Arky earlier this month [1] and one of the
action items waiting on him is a documentation on the translation tools for the
various mozilla projects, precisely to ensure that we can create the language
teams at the appropriate places. While we are waiting on any communication from
Arky or any other Mozilla l10n drivers to clarify about this matter, I am happy
to review Priyanka's translations for the initial round of translation quality
assessment and assistance. She can send over the files to the language team's
mailing list.

cheers
Runa

[1] http://arrbee.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/mozilla-l10n-discussion-notes/

--
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

Danishka Navin

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Nov 28, 2012, 11:30:51 PM11/28/12
to Runa Bhattacharjee, priyanka nag, dev-l10n, Staś Małolepszy, Dwayne Bailey
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Runa Bhattacharjee <
arrbee.ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On বুধবার 28 নভেম্বর 2012 03:54 অপরাহ্ণ, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a great idea, bn-IN team just let us know if you are happy
>> and I
>> can enable this on mozilla.locamotion,org
>>
>> We had a discussion with Arky earlier this month [1] and one of the
> action items waiting on him is a documentation on the translation tools
> for the
> various mozilla projects, precisely to ensure that we can create the
> language
> teams at the appropriate places. While we are waiting on any communication
> from
> Arky or any other Mozilla l10n drivers to clarify about this matter, I am
> happy
> to review Priyanka's translations for the initial round of translation
> quality
> assessment and assistance. She can send over the files to the language
> team's
> mailing list.
>


Do you mind to let this person to work on FirefoxOS l10n, as nobody started
it for Bengali India (bn_IN) ?
As a newbee she may convenient with the Pootle than the other loclization
tools such as Localize, etc

I hope she can learn from the existing bn_IN edition of Firefox Desktop
edition.


Priyanka,

Please keep in touch with your locale community. Specially Runa will help
you in the terms of Bengali l10n related matters. :)
And also let Dwayne know if you need a help on pootle side.

Lets get the FirefoxOS in bn_IN :)


>
> cheers
> Runa
>
> [1] http://arrbee.wordpress.com/**2012/11/17/mozilla-l10n-**
> discussion-notes/<http://arrbee.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/mozilla-l10n-discussion-notes/>
>
> --
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/**User:Runab<http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab>

Runa Bhattacharjee

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Nov 28, 2012, 11:54:58 PM11/28/12
to Danishka Navin, priyanka nag, dev-l10n, Staś Małolepszy, Dwayne Bailey
On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 নভেম্বর 2012 10:00 , Danishka Navin wrote:

> Do you mind to let this person to work on FirefoxOS l10n, as nobody started
> it for Bengali India (bn_IN) ? As a newbee she may convenient with the Pootle
> than the other loclization tools such as Localize, etc
>

In my earlier mail I have already explained our reasons for not having a team on
locamotion and we are waiting for a clarity on the products and tools.
Understanding that she is a newbie I am happy to handhold her during the initial
translation work. If she is local to where I am based (Pune), I will be happy to
sit down with her to review the files in person.

cheers
Runa


--
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

arky

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Nov 29, 2012, 12:06:43 AM11/29/12
to
On 11/29/2012 11:13 AM, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> I
> am happy
> to review Priyanka's translations for the initial round of translation
> quality
> assessment and assistance. She can send over the files to the language
> team's
> mailing list.

Thank you Runa, that is a nice gesture. Such mentorship will certainly
help new contributors learn and grow into valuable Mozilla contributors.

Priyanka, it would be good idea to add your contact information to the
L10N team page here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Teams:bn-IN . Please
do join relevant mailing-list,IRC channels(ankur.org.in) to interact
with rest of the team.

Good Luck! And welcome to the Mozilla Community!


Cheers

--arky

sankarshan

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Dec 5, 2012, 6:58:59 AM12/5/12
to arky, dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:36 AM, arky <ar...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Thank you Runa, that is a nice gesture. Such mentorship will certainly help
> new contributors learn and grow into valuable Mozilla contributors.

It still leaves the original question open ended - which is the
tool/service that Mozilla has officially mandated for the localization
of products ?

<http://arrbee.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/mozilla-l10n-discussion-notes/>
has a list of the tools in active use.

--
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

Ibraahiima SAAR

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Dec 5, 2012, 8:18:08 AM12/5/12
to sankarshan, dev-...@lists.mozilla.org, arky
I think there is no official tool. Sumo uses Pootle which is developed by
Translate.org.za. I thnko the best localization Tool yet is Pootle and it
is ready to accept more languages here: pootle.locamotion.org.
If you need any help you can contact Dwayne Bailey who is administrating
the server.
Regards
Ibrahima SARR

2012/12/5 sankarshan <foss.mai...@gmail.com>

> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:36 AM, arky <ar...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Runa, that is a nice gesture. Such mentorship will certainly
> help
> > new contributors learn and grow into valuable Mozilla contributors.
>
> It still leaves the original question open ended - which is the
> tool/service that Mozilla has officially mandated for the localization
> of products ?
>
> <http://arrbee.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/mozilla-l10n-discussion-notes/>
> has a list of the tools in active use.
>
> --
> sankarshan mukhopadhyay
> <https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

Axel Hecht

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Dec 5, 2012, 12:01:56 PM12/5/12
to
On 05.12.12 12:58, sankarshan wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:36 AM, arky <ar...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Runa, that is a nice gesture. Such mentorship will certainly help
>> new contributors learn and grow into valuable Mozilla contributors.
>
> It still leaves the original question open ended - which is the
> tool/service that Mozilla has officially mandated for the localization
> of products ?
>
> <http://arrbee.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/mozilla-l10n-discussion-notes/>
> has a list of the tools in active use.
>

Mozilla's mission is about choice and innovation on the internet.
Mandating any one tool would be very much against our DNA.

It's an unfortunate situation that none of the popular tools are great
at interacting with another, but live in a monopolistic world of
tooling. Like, I don't know of any of those tools where one localizer
could add a comment to the source, and it'd still be there the next
month. Short of using 'vi' or such ;-).

What we may very well do is enter the competition around l10n tools with
our own ideas and concepts. I'm currently working on a proof-of-concept.
As soon as we're getting this from p-o-c to a project, we'll have yet
more competition.

I'm strongly hoping that will be a good thing.

Axel

sankarshan

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Dec 5, 2012, 11:41:36 PM12/5/12
to Axel Hecht, dev-l10n
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Axel Hecht <l1...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Mozilla's mission is about choice and innovation on the internet. Mandating
> any one tool would be very much against our DNA.

Just in case Arky hasn't found the time to carry forth the notes from
the meeting (reference in Runa's email) let me summarize it - I find
it a bit awkward to be in a situation where for the same product there
can be different localization channels for my locale. For example,
taking FirefoxOS - is it now possible that I can use
mozilla.locamotion.org and, a direct commit to the repo for
translations ? From what I can fathom, it is. If it is so, then I
believe that the above mission of Mozilla when transcribed into the
need for supported infrastructure is either foolhardy or, utopian.

Translated content requires accountability. If, as a project, Mozilla
cannot hold itself accountable for the sanctity of the content it
solicits from the communities, I am afraid that it doesn't fit the
mission.

This isn't the first time I've seen the question being asked. However,
this is certainly the first time I've noticed what I think is a
mis-interpretation of the concept of choice and the idea of
innovation. Projects provide supported infrastructure - Mozilla
provides them in the form of mercurial repositories. What surprises me
is that the interpretation of choice and innovation gets restricted in
that context - Mozilla certainly doesn't have multiple repositories
all over the place from which source code is collated and continuously
integrated. The process is built out off the Mozilla infrastructure.

TL;DR, Axel, I respect the fact that you have been doing a lot for
Mozilla L10n. In this specific instance of your interpretation of
choice and innovation, I disagree.

> It's an unfortunate situation that none of the popular tools are great at
> interacting with another, but live in a monopolistic world of tooling. Like,
> I don't know of any of those tools where one localizer could add a comment
> to the source, and it'd still be there the next month. Short of using 'vi'
> or such ;-).
>
> What we may very well do is enter the competition around l10n tools with our
> own ideas and concepts. I'm currently working on a proof-of-concept. As soon
> as we're getting this from p-o-c to a project, we'll have yet more
> competition.
>
> I'm strongly hoping that will be a good thing.

Nothing prevents the above from happening if, hypothetically, Mozilla
declares that mozilla.locamotion.org is the official 'blessed' tool
and documents the same. The Pootle team does a stellar job and, as a
tool Pootle does make it easy to contribute and manage language
communities. What I'd really like to see is Mozilla arriving at a
decision that is orthogonal to the chaos of a thousand flowers
blooming.

Axel Hecht

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Dec 6, 2012, 7:20:06 AM12/6/12
to
I'm happy that you guys like pootle.

Don't take me wrong, if we were to see a clear winner in the tools
ecosystem, we'd proclaim it.

The fact that we don't proclaim one stays for:

- we don't see a winner
- we don't see any of the existing tools to be the obvious starting point

There haven't really been any dramatic changes in our tooling ecosystem
in the last 2 years. If we had any of the above, we wouldn't have this
discussion. There's enough communication within the l10n community that
people would use just one tool if there was a clear advantage to it over
all the others.

Axel

Robert Kaiser

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Dec 7, 2012, 11:20:53 AM12/7/12
to
sankarshan schrieb:
> Translated content requires accountability.

That's why we have owners for every locale. They are accountable. Things
like that should be solved by administrative process like that, not by
tools.

Robert Kaiser

sankarshan

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Dec 7, 2012, 12:47:53 PM12/7/12
to Robert Kaiser, dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Robert Kaiser <ka...@kairo.at> wrote:
> That's why we have owners for every locale. They are accountable. Things
> like that should be solved by administrative process like that, not by
> tools.

If you go back to my original post - I had a single question. Which,
for reasons unknown seems to not receive a straight answer.

I completely disagree with your notion that locale owners are
responsible. If Mozilla chooses not to provide a centralized
translation management infrastructure citing (in my opinion) a wrong
interpretation of Mozilla mission, then it is Mozilla's problem. Not
the locale owners.

Most upstream projects provide a standard workflow for submission of
content and, documents a specific path for submission. Unless you do
that and yet allow multiple input streams into a locale content
repository, you are bypassing any quality/editorial controls that
locale owners should have. Locale owners are responsible for
administrative duties for their locales, encouraging reviews of
submitted content and, in general being available to respond to any
communications from the project. They aren't necessarily there to make
up for a gaping hole which Mozilla deliberately puts into a content
translation system.

I think I have abjectly failed at making anyone at Mozilla L10n
understand what the concern is. And, while I assumed that Arky would
carry forth the discussion he participated in, being a liaison for the
L10n community, I have not seen a public validation of this trust that
I had. In this context this is going to be the last time I will be
responding on this.

chris hofmann

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Dec 7, 2012, 1:16:35 PM12/7/12
to sankarshan, dev-...@lists.mozilla.org, Robert Kaiser
On 12/7/12 9:47 AM, sankarshan wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Robert Kaiser <ka...@kairo.at> wrote:
>> That's why we have owners for every locale. They are accountable. Things
>> like that should be solved by administrative process like that, not by
>> tools.
> If you go back to my original post - I had a single question. Which,
> for reasons unknown seems to not receive a straight answer.
I'll try too...
> I completely disagree with your notion that locale owners are
> responsible. If Mozilla

Define Mozilla. I think what kiaro is saying is the locale leaders and
all contributors are "Mozilla." I agree with that definition. Its not
those guys at mozilla, and the localizers as some outside group.

> chooses not to provide a centralized
> translation management infrastructure citing (in my opinion) a wrong
> interpretation of Mozilla mission, then it is Mozilla's problem. Not
> the locale owners.

again, it depends on your definition of who mozilla is...

I'm not sure that you have completely defined what the problem is other
than everyone is not using the same tool to get translation work into
the system.

we have roughly 1/3 each using direct command line tools, pootle , and
narro.

there have been some teams moving away from narro recently due to bugs and
maintenance issues. I'm not sure you have made the case on what imposing
one tool on everyone buys us. Some simplicity maybe yes, but at the cost of
trying to keep tools and process evolving and innovating hopefully for
the better.

that's our goal here and hopefully you will come to know and understand
that.
> Most upstream projects provide a standard workflow for submission of
> content and, documents a specific path for submission. Unless you do
> that and yet allow multiple input streams into a locale content
> repository, you are bypassing any quality/editorial controls that
> locale owners should have.
each of the teams have the ability to set up the quality and editorial
controls in the way that works for each team. each of the tools provide
these
features. ultimately quality needs to be tested in the builds that get
produced
on frequent cycles.
> Locale owners are responsible for
> administrative duties for their locales, encouraging reviews of
> submitted content and, in general being available to respond to any
> communications from the project.
again, which tools don't provide for locale owners to discharge these
duties?
> They aren't necessarily there to make
> up for a gaping hole which Mozilla deliberately puts into a content
> translation system.

where is the hole? what does it look like?
what are the specific problems created by this hole?

I think you described a hole where one group of contributors uses
narro and another group of contributors uses pootle on the same
localization.

One view of this is that its something that needs to be worked out,
just like all the contributors need to work out style guidelines for the
local to make the translation consistent across all parts of the work.

Another view of this is that both pootle and narro (and any new tools
that arise) should reduce and remove bugs that result in any conflicts
that arise when working in parallel using an of the tools.
Lets get those kind of bugs on file.

I hope this gives you a better understand of what we are trying to
achieve here beyond just the high level statement that we want
to support choice and innovation. I understand that you may not
agree with the philosophy behind my arguments, but the best
way to move the discussion forward is to identify specific problems
that are popping up and lets see if we can work together on
solutions that helps to meet eveyones objectives.

>
> I think I have abjectly failed at making anyone at Mozilla L10n
> understand what the concern is. And, while I assumed that Arky would
> carry forth the discussion he participated in, being a liaison for the
> L10n community, I have not seen a public validation of this trust that
> I had. In this context this is going to be the last time I will be
> responding on this.
>
>
please don't disengage. try to make clear your point, and understand
the points being made by others.

-chofmann
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