There is only 1 Tamil .So why 2 browsers?
Kotravan
Tamil Eelam Tamil i.e Sri Lankan Tamil-as you call it are nothing but
dialects of single language named TAMIL.
At present that grammar used in the version ta_lk is good and the
vocabulary of ta is good.But the sanskrit,persian etc word is the
versions ta and ta_lk must be rooted out.
Eg: (1) In ta version ரத்து s used and in ta-lk இரத்து is used.But as
per the gaammar of Tamil and standards of tamil Nadu government இரத்து
is only correct .Anyhow இரத்து is not a Tamil word but Persian or
Urdu.
(2) For 'default' the word used in 'ta' is இயல்பான .But in the
version 'ta-lk' the word that is used is 'நியம'. But this நியம
is a Sanskrit word.
Please combine the good features of both the browsers and release one
single version for
Danishka Navin
> What you call Tamil Nadu Tamil i.e Indian Tamil -as you call it and
> Tamil Eelam Tamil i.e Sri Lankan
Please use 'Sri Lankan Tamil' instead of Tamil Eelam Tamil.
Tamil Eelam != Sri Lanka
There is no Tamil Eelam. It was a dream of a *terrorist* .
> Tamil-as you call it are nothing but
> dialects of single language named TAMIL.
> At present that grammar used in the version ta_lk is good and the
> vocabulary of ta is good.But the sanskrit,persian etc word is the
> versions ta and ta_lk must be rooted out.
>
> Eg: (1) In ta version ரத்து s used and in ta-lk இரத்து is used.But as
> per the gaammar of Tamil and standards of tamil Nadu government இரத்து
> is only correct .Anyhow இரத்து is not a Tamil word but Persian or
> Urdu.
>
> (2) For 'default' the word used in 'ta' is இயல்பான .But in the
> version 'ta-lk' the word that is used is 'நியம'. But this நியம
> is a Sanskrit word.
I don't think that we can make a Firefox's Good_English version by taking
worlds from En_Gb, En_Us, En_In etc
take the source and release your own one.
>
> Please combine the good features of both the browsers and release one
> single version for
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
--
Danishka Navin
http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
I. Felix
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Kotravan <arun1p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What you call Tamil Nadu Tamil i.e Indian Tamil -as you call it and
> > Tamil Eelam Tamil i.e Sri Lankan
>
>
> Please use 'Sri Lankan Tamil' instead of Tamil Eelam Tamil.
>
> Tamil Eelam != Sri Lanka
>
> There is no Tamil Eelam. It was a dream of a *terrorist* .
Danishka, Pls don't make any politics here and you are a Sinhalese.
Kotravan, First we start with Only one Tamil only. But in between the
coordinator became inactive and he didn't allow anybody to go ahead with the
translation process and for some releases it was almost dead. Later on I did
the translations and get the commit access with the help of pike. By the
mean time somebody (i think sarves & co) from Sri lanka also did the
translation and got the commit access separately as ta_LK.
I didn't know in what basis the Mozilla officials given the 2 locale for
Tamil.
Regarding Translation bug you can always file a bug in
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485044>.
So that we can improve the translation quality in future release.
Thanks
--
Regards,
I. Felix
http://photo.net/photos/ifelix
+91 9326038909
Rohana Dasanayaka
I. Felix wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Danishka Navin <dani...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Kotravan <arun1p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What you call Tamil Nadu Tamil i.e Indian Tamil -as you call it and
>>> Tamil Eelam Tamil i.e Sri Lankan
>>>
>> Please use 'Sri Lankan Tamil' instead of Tamil Eelam Tamil.
>>
>> Tamil Eelam != Sri Lanka
>>
>> There is no Tamil Eelam. It was a dream of a *terrorist* .
>>
>
>
> Danishka, Pls don't make any politics here and you are a Sinhalese.
>
Not politics but there is no Eelam in Sri Lanka.
> Kotravan, First we start with Only one Tamil only. But in between the
> coordinator became inactive and he didn't allow anybody to go ahead with the
> translation process and for some releases it was almost dead. Later on I did
> the translations and get the commit access with the help of pike. By the
> mean time somebody (i think sarves & co) from Sri lanka also did the
> translation and got the commit access separately as ta_LK.
>
Tamil language used in Sri Lanka has differences than the language used
in India. That is why we started a separate translation under ta-LK.
> I didn't know in what basis the Mozilla officials given the 2 locale for
> Tamil.
>
Hopefully, because the ta-LK is a different language.
> Regarding Translation bug you can always file a bug in
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485044>.
> So that we can improve the translation quality in future release.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
Thanks,
Rohana.
Danishka Navin
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:34 PM, I. Felix <ifel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Danishka Navin <dani...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Kotravan <arun1p...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > What you call Tamil Nadu Tamil i.e Indian Tamil -as you call it and
> > > Tamil Eelam Tamil i.e Sri Lankan
> >
> >
> > Please use 'Sri Lankan Tamil' instead of Tamil Eelam Tamil.
> >
> > Tamil Eelam != Sri Lanka
> >
> > There is no Tamil Eelam. It was a dream of a *terrorist* .
>
>
> Danishka, Pls don't make any politics here and you are a Sinhalese.
Yes, I am a Sinhalese. And also I am a Sri Lankan, and there is NO Tamil
Eelam in within the Sri Lanka.
Why can't he Simply say, Sri Lankan Tamil?
That's what I wanted to tell him.
You should ask Kotravan to stop his politics.
Btw, I am Sinhlese but I used talk about both Sinhala and Tamil support in
FOSS.
We don't have boundaries in the FOSS community.
Have a good day!
>
> Kotravan, First we start with Only one Tamil only. But in between the
> coordinator became inactive and he didn't allow anybody to go ahead with
> the
> translation process and for some releases it was almost dead. Later on I
> did
> the translations and get the commit access with the help of pike. By the
> mean time somebody (i think sarves & co) from Sri lanka also did the
> translation and got the commit access separately as ta_LK.
>
> I didn't know in what basis the Mozilla officials given the 2 locale for
> Tamil.
>
> Regarding Translation bug you can always file a bug in
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org<
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485044>.
> So that we can improve the translation quality in future release.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> I. Felix
> http://photo.net/photos/ifelix
> +91 9326038909
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
--
Danishka Navin
http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com (use Sinhala Unicode fonts)
I. Felix
> Felix,
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:34 PM, I. Felix <ifel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Danishka Navin <dani...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Kotravan <arun1p...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > What you call Tamil Nadu Tamil i.e Indian Tamil -as you call it and
>> > > Tamil Eelam Tamil i.e Sri Lankan
>> >
>> >
>> > Please use 'Sri Lankan Tamil' instead of Tamil Eelam Tamil.
>> >
>> > Tamil Eelam != Sri Lanka
>> >
>> > There is no Tamil Eelam. It was a dream of a *terrorist* .
>>
>>
>> Danishka, Pls don't make any politics here and you are a Sinhalese.
>
>
> Yes, I am a Sinhalese. And also I am a Sri Lankan, and there is NO Tamil
> Eelam in within the Sri Lanka.
>
> Why can't he Simply say, Sri Lankan Tamil?
>
> That's what I wanted to tell him.
>
> You should ask Kotravan to stop his politics.
>
>
> Btw, I am Sinhlese but I used talk about both Sinhala and Tamil support in
> FOSS.
> We don't have boundaries in the FOSS community.
>
> Have a good day!
>
This is my last mail on this thread and here after i won't to reply to ****
people like you and don't want to waste my time. I know very well, when i
put a stone on a *****.
I am very sorry dear you made me to write like this.
And your are not having boundaries in FOSS community, Like the same Kotravan
also not having boundaries in FOSS. He is having full freedom to speak,
write in India and do you know one thing, we Indians got Freedom in August
15, 1947. (Anyway, till date I am not understanding about this terms like
Freedom, Boundaries)
**** Hello dear finally, Maximum What i can expect from a swine? **** (Here
I am also not having boundaries in FOSS)
*** Danishka, I also used lot of asterisk (*) that I learned from your
earlier mail. And I am using better than you. My newton's 3rd law is over
***
Good bye.
Again am telling this is my last mail in this thread.
P.S. Sorry all of you in this list for troubling with this reply.
--
Regards,
I. Felix
आलोक कुमार (Alok Kumar)
> Please combine the good features of both the browsers and release one
> single version for
If en-US and en-GB can co-exist, bn-IN and bn-BD can co-exist, there
is no reason to not have another set of lang-locale to co-exist. Users
have more choice and are free (free being the operative word) to use
the version they like.
Alok
--
आद्यक्षर कंसल्टेंसीज़ प्राइव्हेट लिमिटेड
http://aadyakshar.co.in
Kotravan
>
> >> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Kotravan <arun1pala...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> What you callTamilNaduTamili.e IndianTamil-as you call it and
> >>>TamilEelamTamili.e Sri Lankan
>
> >> Please use 'Sri LankanTamil' instead ofTamilEelamTamil.
>
>
> >> There is noTamilEelam. It was a dream of a *terrorist* .
>
> > Danishka, Pls don't make any politics here and you are a Sinhalese.
>
> > coordinator became inactive and he didn't allow anybody to go ahead with the
> > translation process and for some releases it was almost dead. Later on I did
> > the translations and get the commit access with the help of pike. By the
> > mean time somebody (i think sarves & co) from Sri lanka also did the
> > translation and got the commit access separately as ta_LK.
>
> in India. That is why we started a separate translation under ta-LK.> I didn't know in what basis the Mozilla officials given the 2 locale for
> >Tamil.
>
> Hopefully, because the ta-LK is a different language.
>
> > Regarding Translation bug you can always file a bug in
> >https://bugzilla.mozilla.org<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485044>.
> > So that we can improve the translation quality in future release.
>
> > Thanks
>
> Thanks,
> Rohana.
Mr.Dasnayaka .I don't think that you are speaker of Tamil language.I
don't don't know how do you conclude that Tamil spoken in that island
Sri Lanka is different from Tamil spoken in Tamil Nadu and some other
places in INDIA.
Well .Al languages have dialects.But it makes no sense in claiming
DIALECTS as LANGUAGES
Kotravan
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Kotravan <arun1pala...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What you callTamilNaduTamili.e IndianTamil-as you call it and
>
> Please use 'Sri LankanTamil' instead ofTamilEelamTamil.
>
>
> There is noTamilEelam. It was a dream of a *terrorist* .
>
> >Tamil-as you call it are nothing but
> > dialects of single language namedTAMIL.
> > At present that grammar used in the version ta_lk is good and the
> > vocabulary of ta is good.But the sanskrit,persian etc word is the
> > versions ta and ta_lk must be rooted out.
>
> > Eg: (1) In ta version ரத்து s used and in ta-lk இரத்து is used.But as
> > is only correct .Anyhow இரத்து is not aTamilword but Persian or
> > Urdu.
>
> > (2) For 'default' the word used in 'ta' is இயல்பான .But in the
> > version 'ta-lk' the word that is used is 'நியம'. But this நியம
> > is a Sanskrit word.
>
> I don't think that we can make a Firefox's Good_English version by taking
> worlds from En_Gb, En_Us, En_In etc
>
> take the source and release your own one.
>
>
>
> > Please combine the good features of both the browsers and release one
> > single version for
> > _______________________________________________
> > dev-l10n mailing list
> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
> --
> Danishka Navinhttp://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
\\\\
The world will say who is terrorist in near future.and the real
terrorsits will be taken to the INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE .Just
now saw CHANNEL 4 NEWS footages about SL ARMY.
I am not here to speak about politics.
Regarding the term Tamil Eezham.It is not banned in INDIA.So it is
legal to use it here in TAMIL NADU and other states of INDIAN UNION.
I never claimed that TAMIL EELAM is a separate country.Any how Tamil
Eezham is a region in that island just as we have Rajastan,Gukarat etc
in INDIAN UNION.
Here Tamil nadu might not be a NATION but no senseless being can come
and dictate me to say my language as INDIAN TAMIL .I would prefer to
use TAMIL NADU TAMIL to distingush the change in dailect.
Just because I am very specific about using cultural terms setting
aside religous terms it doesn't mean that I am against the
politicalsdtructure named INDIAN UNION or X or y or z
Kotravan
wrote:
> 2009/8/28 Kotravan <arun1pala...@gmail.com>:
\\
See if people who use the English version have no problem with various
version it doesn't mean that Tamils too should have no problems
How many users to you want to say NO to 2 versions.???????????????
Sampath kumar
Actually its a dishonour to the Tamil language if you split it by the
borders. Tamil is one and may have different slangs. I feel pitty on
the Sinhalese trying to show thier barbarism here. Tamil Eelam is real
and strong like Tamil.
Tamil Eelam = Tamil.
And Mr.Danishka Navin pls dont get into Tamil research, which u knew
nothing about.
arun
> Hi all,
> Actually its a dishonour to the Tamil language if you split it by the
> borders. Tamil is one and may have different slangs.
While I agree that Tamil is one language, I respectfully disagree with
anyone that insists that from a software perspective, one Tamil
localization fits all users. The goal of a localization is to make
users within that particular localization feel comfortable with the
metaphors used in the software. For instance, previously in this
email thread, Kotravan pointed out:
>(2) For 'default' the word used in 'ta' is இயல்பான .But in the
>version 'ta-lk' the word that is used is 'நியம'. But this நியம
>is a Sanskrit word.
My personal belief is that Kotravan is neither completely right nor
completely wrong. It is difficult to dictate terms to any given
localization. Similar arguments could be made between en_gb and
en_us. English is one language, but the words used for popular things
(in this case, metaphors for software) are different. I also very
respectfully disagree with the "de-Sanskritization" of Tamil. I
consider myself 100% Tamil, but may use certain words that have a
Sanskrit origin. This is not my fault! I heard such words as a
child, and *thought* they were Tamil words. From context, most
people would understand these words, but they were not an integral
part of the Tamil language according to latter revisions. So, I
learned new words, and started using them. This is also true of fr_ca
and fr_fr -- French underwent changes in Canada, and the metaphors for
software terms reflect these changes. The French authorities also
"purified" French a bit within France, by striving to remove
anglicisms. This story is an old one; Tamil is a vibrant and great
transoceanic language, just like English and French, and exists in
similar form but perhaps with substantial variations across the
ocean.
Mozilla is an inclusive project. We thrive by being inclusive, and
accepting of different use cases. My humble opinion is that there
should be a ta_lk, alongside a ta_in. This allows individual
communities maximum customization of their software. If possible,
however, the major stake holders should cooperate on approaches.
We're happy to help, but the great work of making Firefox available to
everyone is yours and yours alone!
With deep gratitude for everything you all are doing, and with
humility as someone who has joined this discussion late,
-- A*
http://arunranga.com/
http://www.mozilla.com/
PS Veeravel Vetrivel!
I think there should
Vetriko
different words just like a dialect. Eezham Tamil and TN Tamil are
quite similar as far as written form is concerned. If people are not
sure, they can consult a linguist not people from other linguistic
groups.
Kotravan
> On Aug 28, 9:18 am, Sampath kumar <sampath.ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > borders.Tamilis one and may have different slangs.
>
> While I agree thatTamilis one language, I respectfully disagree with
> anyone that insists that from a software perspective, oneTamil
> localization fits all users. The goal of a localization is to make
> users within that particular localization feel comfortable with the
> metaphors used in the software. For instance, previously in this
> email thread, Kotravan pointed out:
>
> >(2) For 'default' the word used in 'ta' is இயல்பான .But in the>version 'ta-lk' the word that is used is 'நியம'. But this நியம
>
> >is a Sanskrit word.
>
> My personal belief is that Kotravan is neither completely right nor
> completely wrong. It is difficult to dictate terms to any given
> localization. Similar arguments could be made between en_gb and
> en_us. English is one language, but the words used for popular things
> (in this case, metaphors for software) are different. I also very
> respectfully disagree with the "de-Sanskritization" ofTamil. I
> Sanskrit origin. This is not my fault! I heard such words as a
> people would understand these words, but they were not an integral
> learned new words, and started using them. This is also true of fr_ca
> and fr_fr -- French underwent changes in Canada, and the metaphors for
> software terms reflect these changes. The French authorities also
> "purified" French a bit within France, by striving to remove
> transoceanic language, just like English and French, and exists in
> similar form but perhaps with substantial variations across the
> ocean.
>
> Mozilla is an inclusive project. We thrive by being inclusive, and
> accepting of different use cases. My humble opinion is that there
> should be a ta_lk, alongside a ta_in. This allows individual
> communities maximum customization of their software. If possible,
> however, the major stake holders should cooperate on approaches.
> We're happy to help, but the great work of making Firefox available to
> everyone is yours and yours alone!
>
> With deep gratitude for everything you all are doing, and with
> humility as someone who has joined this discussion late,
>
> PS Veeravel Vetrivel!
>
> I think there should
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
If browsers have to be created for the DIALECTS OF TAMIL then 6 or
7more browsers must be created .I hope mozilla team has more
constructive work to do.Regarding sanskrit ,the government had already
adopted the restoring TAMIL to its true form by removing
sanskrit,hindi,urdu ,english etc.
Sanskrit is no exception.Many educated people think DOOR,PEN,PENA
[Portuguese] etc are Tamil words .I find no point in having the title
as TAMIL BROWSER and including Sanskrit,urdu etc in it.
princenrsama
There is no need for two browsers in tamil. There is no vast
difference between tamil in tamilnadu and tamil in eelam. If you
people follow this attitude, u hav to release variety of tamil
browsers. Not only for tamil, but for all languages.
Its not a gud idea, i think so. bcoz, we hav several dialects in
tamil. There are nellai tamil, kovai tamil, madurai tamil, nanjil
tamil, chettinattu tamil, Chennai tamil in tamilnadu. And even eelam
tamil is not at all a single.There are Jaffna thamil and some
dialects
We tamils dont want two type of tamil browsers.
Pls use the best parts of the two tamil browsers and make it a final
fine browser.
Thank You.
Axel Hecht
I would like to chime in to this thread as one of the members of the
team that makes the call on whether to take a localization or not. As
most of you don't know me, quick background: I'm a European, which makes
me non-US-centric, but still continents away from Sri Lanka and India. I
have been in India a few times, not in Sri Lanka, though.
First of all, I'd like to thank you guys for caring, not only about your
language but also about Mozilla.
Let me add a bit of my perspective:
I have three major trains of thoughts that go along when looking at a
new localization:
- End user value. This is first and foremost.
- Localization is translation into a particular language, plus adaption
to some local market. Think good search engines, cool websites to recommend.
- Each localization comes with a cost, in the actual translation, in
finding what's right locally, creating community around it, and for my
team in coordinating shipping one more sets of deliverables.
There are also a few non-goals, which I think are OK to list here.
- We won't make everybody happy.
- We don't have to be consistent.
- There's no point to try democratic decision processes.
To detail on the first three trains.
Firefox is really about end-user value. This is why we're good, why we
matter. End-user value doesn't mean that we do everything, but that we
do things that a majority of people feel. When it comes down to local
communities and languages, that "majority" might be restricted to that
local community or language community.
Regarding localization as both language and regional ecosystem and
culture: We do acknowledge that linguistics are not a strict and static
"yes or not" quiz questions. There's a lot of heart-felt difference
between language, dialect, variant of language continuum,
bastardization, and whatnot. People use language as a way to identify
themselves, and often there's no "right". And even if there is, there is
usually not only one "right".
As for cost of independent localizations, I personally am a techie. If I
have two or more things that are close, I wanna throw a tool at it. I
want to have people collaborate and fix bugs only once.
On the other hand, I'm techie enough to see that we can offer choice to
users if we actually get tooling in place, if we actually do make our
contributors share efforts and the commonalities, and just polish the
differences. Sadly, we're not yet good in terms of infrastructure to
support that. All the Spanish variants might at one point benefit,
Japanese for the Mac surely would. Franco-Canadians could. It's just
that there's so much other good and important stuff to do that we didn't
get to this one.
I hope you forgive me that I'll not comment on the issue of Tamil
localizations in particular, but rest assured that we're reading this
thread.
Reading it, I will make up my mind on:
- how many "right" are there?
- how do those that actually contribute the localization work collaborate?
- given those boundary conditions, how do we get the best value to users?
Hope that helps
Axel
Member of the l10n team at Mozilla
Sudharsan SN
I just noticed this discussion. First, the thread is not about
Eelam and political divisions. It is about having two versions for the
same language. Let me summarize my opinions here. I am not going to
get into the inherent ambiguity and lack of clarity in the way terms
such as 'accent/dialect' are used in non-linguistic discussion boards.
Please read the text knowing that the terms 'speech variety' and
'variation' have been used
a). Tamil is just one language with variations which are universally
found in all languages. So there is no need to have browsers for
English (Texas) and English (non-rhotic Massachusetts). Spelling
variations have been explained below.
b). There is near-complete mutual intelligibility between the Tamil
spoken in Tamil Nadu and SL. Minimal deviations in intelligibility
exist even within Tamil Nadu which is home to about 20-25 regional
speech variety variations.
c). Additionally, Tamil is a diglossic language, which means that
Tamil is not spoken the way it is written except for under special
circumstances like political meetings and other appropriate
situations. The L language (known as low, but not having any demeaning
connotations) is acquired orally whereas the H (high, but again, not
superior) is the language taught in schools and the language of
literature. L language differs by region even within Tamil Nadu or Sri
Lanka. However, everything has to be written only in H language.
d). There is extensive variation in L language even within Sri Lanka -
Jaffna, Batticaloa, Negombo, Nuwara Eliya, Kandy and Colombo. I mean,
highly noticeable variations. All of them, however, are written with
one and the same script.
e). The spelling variations that were pointed out are very minimal. It
is actually the Tamil in Tamil Nadu that has changed owing to
influences from other contact languages, like English, etc. This can
be noticed clearly when Tamils transliterate to English. A word like
'துர்கா' (which is not a Tamil word in the first place) will be
written as 'Durga' by Indian Tamils and as 'Thurga' by SL Tamils. The
answer is simple, th/dh is phonemic in Tamil. There is no word-initial
'dh' in Tamil, and if there is such a word, it is not a Tamil word but
a loan word (dhukkam, dhairyam, etc). Word-initially all Tamil 'த's
are 'th' and word-middle/final ones can be 'th' or 'dh'. This voiced/
voiceless variation is applicable for all Tamil 'stops'. The point
being that these variations are found even within the state of Tamil
Nadu depending upon their contact with neighbouring languages and do
not warrant separate spelling conventions.
Healthy discussions and opinions welcome.
Sudharsan SN,
Canada Institute of Linguistics.
Sudharsan SN
fairly straightforward. Variations are found only in the speech
varieties.
Spelling conventions are also the same for all these speech varieties,
the only thing is that there are actually variations in the way words,
especially loan words, are written. However, that exists even within
Tamil Nadu and there is no need to have Palk Straits as a demarcation
line. These variations are minimal and negligible, not to mention that
it surfaces only when Tamils across the region transliterate to
English. When transliterating, Tamils, depending on their region,
write voiced and voiceless stops differently because all this is
phonemic in Tamil (t/d - ட, p/b - ப, th/dh - த, k/g - க).
In my humble opinion, having multiple browsers for Tamil is redundant.
No comments on political opinions about Tamil Nadu or Eelam or
anything.
Sudharsan SN,
Canada Institute of Linguistics.
On Aug 29, 5:02 pm, Sudharsan SN <sudharsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I just noticed this discussion. First, the thread is not about
> Eelam and political divisions. It is about having two versions for the
> same language. Let me summarize my opinions here. I am not going to
> get into the inherent ambiguity and lack of clarity in the way terms
> such as 'accent/dialect' are used in non-linguistic discussion boards.
> Please read the text knowing that the terms 'speech variety' and
> 'variation' have been used
>
> a).Tamilis just one language with variations which are universally
> found in all languages. So there is no need to have browsers for
> English (Texas) and English (non-rhotic Massachusetts). Spelling
> variations have been explained below.
>
> b). There is near-complete mutual intelligibility between theTamil
> spoken inTamilNadu and SL. Minimal deviations in intelligibility
> exist even withinTamilNadu which is home to about 20-25 regional
> speech variety variations.
>
> c). Additionally,Tamilis a diglossic language, which means thatTamilis not spoken the way it is written except for under special
> circumstances like political meetings and other appropriate
> situations. The L language (known as low, but not having any demeaning
> connotations) is acquired orally whereas the H (high, but again, not
> superior) is the language taught in schools and the language of
> literature. L language differs by region even withinTamilNadu or Sri
> Lanka. However, everything has to be written only in H language.
>
> d). There is extensive variation in L language even within Sri Lanka -
> Jaffna, Batticaloa, Negombo, Nuwara Eliya, Kandy and Colombo. I mean,
> highly noticeable variations. All of them, however, are written with
> one and the same script.
>
> e). The spelling variations that were pointed out are very minimal. It
> is actually theTamilinTamilNadu that has changed owing to
> influences from other contact languages, like English, etc. This can
> be noticed clearly when Tamils transliterate to English. A word like
> 'துர்கா' (which is not aTamilword in the first place) will be
> written as 'Durga' by Indian Tamils and as 'Thurga' by SL Tamils. The
> answer is simple, th/dh is phonemic inTamil. There is no word-initial
> 'dh' inTamil, and if there is such a word, it is not aTamilword but
> a loan word (dhukkam, dhairyam, etc). Word-initially allTamil'த's
> are 'th' and word-middle/final ones can be 'th' or 'dh'. This voiced/
> voiceless variation is applicable for allTamil'stops'. The point
avernus abadon
\\\
There is only one Tamil language.We don't want two browsers for our
language.Our language has many dialects just as many other languages
do.The Tamil spoken in Indian Union and the island of Sri Lanka are
just different spoken forms of a same language.These two are not
different languages.I plea to revise the decision of having 2
browsers.Only 1 browser is enough
Marcus Buck
have no special knowledge about Tamil. I'm just a mailing list reader
interested in linguistic "conflict" situations, who wasn't able to make
an opinion on this discussion because the discussion until now did not
provide one important information: Are there two completely different
localizations or is it just one with two "flavors"?
For groups like "en-gb", "en-us", ... or "de-de", "de-at", "de-ch", ...,
"fr-fr", "fr-ca", ... the normal way to go is to translate any string
_once_. Different versions are only created if there are actual
differences. A message "I'm at the central point" will have no different
translations. The message is only physically stored once. But for "'I'm
in the centre" there will physically be two messages, one for American
and one for British English.
If Tamil follows the same principle not to duplicate translations that
are not different, I see no problem in having two localisations. But if
_all_ messages are translated twice irrespective of whether they _need_
to be different, than this should be stopped and the two localizations
should be merged (at least all messages that can be merged).
For everybody who thinks, that there is only one Tamil: if there is only
one Tamil, then both localizations should be equal and the respective
"other" localization should be acceptable to both parties. If they are
not mutually acceptable, that basically prooves, that there is more than
"one" Tamil and thus two localizations are useful.
Marcus Buck
Robert Kaiser
> For groups like "en-gb", "en-us", ... or "de-de", "de-at", "de-ch", ...,
> "fr-fr", "fr-ca", ... the normal way to go is to translate any string
> _once_. Different versions are only created if there are actual
> differences. A message "I'm at the central point" will have no different
> translations. The message is only physically stored once. But for "'I'm
> in the centre" there will physically be two messages, one for American
> and one for British English.
Not in how Mozilla L10n works right now. It's either a complete copy of
all strings or nothing, we don't have any fallbacks in the current
architecture.
Robert Kaiser
I. Felix
> I am in no way involved in the Tamil Firefox localization project and I
> have no special knowledge about Tamil. I'm just a mailing list reader
> interested in linguistic "conflict" situations, who wasn't able to make an
> opinion on this discussion because the discussion until now did not provide
> one important information: Are there two completely different localizations
> or is it just one with two "flavors"?
>
> For groups like "en-gb", "en-us", ... or "de-de", "de-at", "de-ch", ...,
> "fr-fr", "fr-ca", ... the normal way to go is to translate any string
> _once_. Different versions are only created if there are actual differences.
> A message "I'm at the central point" will have no different translations.
> The message is only physically stored once. But for "'I'm in the centre"
> there will physically be two messages, one for American and one for British
> English.
>
> If Tamil follows the same principle not to duplicate translations that are
> not different, I see no problem in having two localisations. But if _all_
> messages are translated twice irrespective of whether they _need_ to be
> different, than this should be stopped and the two localizations should be
> merged (at least all messages that can be merged).
>
> For everybody who thinks, that there is only one Tamil: if there is only
> one Tamil, then both localizations should be equal and the respective
> "other" localization should be acceptable to both parties. If they are not
> mutually acceptable, that basically prooves, that there is more than "one"
> Tamil and thus two localizations are useful.
I am again here for some healthy discussion and i am having some question.
The fact is there is only one Tamil in Tamil nadu (India), Eelam (Srilanka),
Malayasia, Singapore, Canada, France... Etc. All are having same alphabet.
But every where slang is different while speaking. Even in Tamil Nadu also
if you take every district people 'll speak in different slang only.
But the problem in Tamil is, it is mixing with sanskrit words. So if you
take a word "Happy" in Tamil we can translate in two way, "makelchi
(மகிழ்ச்சி)" and "santhosham (சந்தோஷம்)" here 1st on is Tamil and 2nd one is
sanskrit. Like this lot of things are there and every Tamil people they want
to avoid this sanskrit while writing.
Here am having a question to Mozilla. I came across other open source
projects like Gnome, OpenOffice.org. KDE... and even in Windows, Mac
operating system also i didn't find any 2 division in Tamil. Why Mozilla
alone allow this division?
And my worry is in future if some people from singapore or other country ask
for seperate locale for Tamil, 'll mozilla allow for that?
Thanks all for this discussion sofar.
--
Regards,
I. Felix
Seth Bindernagel
I. Felix wrote:
>
> Here am having a question to Mozilla. I came across other open source
> projects like Gnome, OpenOffice.org. KDE... and even in Windows, Mac
> operating system also i didn't find any 2 division in Tamil. Why Mozilla
> alone allow this division?
>
There are a couple reasons that Axel has already eloquently stated, so
let me relink to his post:
http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.l10n/msg/87c0b2089b20dd0c?dmode=source
Probably one very critical thing to remember in this debate:
translation does equal localization. Wikipedia seems to also state this
nicely:
* "Language localisation can be defined as the second phase of a
larger process (Internationalisation) of product translation and
cultural adaptation (for specific countries, regions, groups) to
account for differences in distinct markets." Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_localization
Referring to other open source projects, though helpful, is not a
perfect corollary to help the Mozilla community guide how we do
localization. For many reasons, localizing a web browser like Firefox
is very different from localizing an application like Open Office or an
OS like Gnome. When we customize what we call the "productization"
elements of the browser, end user demand often requires us to consider
multiple versions. That has occurred several times. (ta, ta-LK, en-GB,
en-US, ja, ja-JP-mac, es-ES, es-AR, es-CL, es-MX, as well as a few
others that we often consider like fr and fr-CA and several varieties of
English.)
I hope this is now explicitly clear and helps provide clarity on this
debate.
We will continue to ship two versions of Tamil, and Mozilla l10n-drivers
can really only respond to community requests and market demands. At
this point, having ta and ta-LK seems like something that benefits our
users in Tamil Nadu and Eelam (Sri Lanka).
With kind regards,
-sethb
member of l10n-drivers team
pasum...@gmail.com
> I. Felix wrote:
>
> > Here am having a question to Mozilla. I came across other open source
> > projects like Gnome, OpenOffice.org. KDE... and even in Windows, Mac
> > alone allow this division?
>
> There are a couple reasons that Axel has already eloquently stated, so
> let me relink to his post:
>
>
> Probably one very critical thing to remember in this debate:
> translation does equal localization. Wikipedia seems to also state this
> nicely:
>
> * "Language localisation can be defined as the second phase of a
> larger process (Internationalisation) of product translation and
> cultural adaptation (for specific countries, regions, groups) to
> account for differences in distinct markets." Source:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_localization
>
> Referring to other open source projects, though helpful, is not a
> perfect corollary to help the Mozilla community guide how we do
> localization. For many reasons, localizing a web browser like Firefox
> is very different from localizing an application like Open Office or an
> OS like Gnome. When we customize what we call the "productization"
> elements of the browser, end user demand often requires us to consider
> multiple versions. That has occurred several times. (ta, ta-LK, en-GB,
> en-US, ja, ja-JP-mac, es-ES, es-AR, es-CL, es-MX, as well as a few
> others that we often consider like fr and fr-CA and several varieties of
this case
>
English.)
>
> I hope this is now explicitly clear and helps provide clarity on this
> debate.
>
> We will continue to ship two versions ofTamil, and Mozilla l10n-drivers
> can really only respond to community requests and market demands. At
> this point, having ta and ta-LK seems like something that benefits our
> users inTamilNadu and Eelam (Sri Lanka).