FF in Scots

12 views
Skip to first unread message

Ian A. Henderson

unread,
Feb 7, 2020, 2:32:05 PM2/7/20
to dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Jeff Beatty, Susannah Eccles, Françoise Henderson
Hello Flod,

We would like to translate FF into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language. Can you let us know how we should go about this?

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]
Rubric Limited. Registered in Scotland No 489009

Francesco Lodolo

unread,
Feb 11, 2020, 6:52:04 AM2/11/20
to dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Françoise Henderson, Jeff Beatty, Susannah Eccles
Hi Ian,

I have a couple of questions/concerns before enabling this locale for
Firefox.

We normally receive requests to enable new languages from individuals or
communities. Their motivation is interest in Open Source and Firefox on one
side, and promoting their own language through technology on the other.
This pushes them to remain engaged over time, test the products, and
empower new contributors.

We had cases in the past where similar initiatives from vendors resulted in
a complete disconnect from the community (lack of integration with the
larger l10n community, lack of openness towards new contributor), and lack
of testing, because the main goal was to train new translators. We also
ended up with abandoned languages in release, and a lot of work to remove
them to minimize the impact on existing users. To avoid the latter, we set
the bar much higher to enable new languages in Firefox over the past years.

Will the translators be also charged with testing their work? I'd also like
to make sure that the locale remains open to new contributors, as unlikely
that might be, given the low number of speakers.

Francesco



Il giorno ven 7 feb 2020 alle ore 20:32 Ian A. Henderson <
ian.he...@rubric.com> ha scritto:
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n-new-locales mailing list
> dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-new-locales
>

Ian A. Henderson

unread,
Feb 11, 2020, 11:11:24 AM2/11/20
to Francesco Lodolo, dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Françoise Henderson, Jeff Beatty, Susannah Eccles
Hello Francesco,

Your concerns are valid; but hardly apply in Rubric’s case.

We would run the project as a normal software project, which includes glossary & style guide development, as well as testing in addition to the translation of course.

As a Scottish based company we have never had a request to translate into Scots, so our motivation not to train translators for use on other projects. We would necessarily have try and tap into existing communities out there, e.g.

The Doric Board encourages Doric-related projects; see the website, www.doricboard.com
Scots Language Forum on Facebook
https://www.scotslanguage.com/news
https://www.scotsradio.com/
Oor Vyce - Scottish Borders-based Thomas, 39, who works at Hawick High School, has already translated Jeff Kinney’s best-selling Diary of a Wimpy Kid. His version won the Scots Language Awards Scots Bairns’ Book of the Year accolade.
https://scilt.org.uk/News/NewsView/tabid/1311/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/13254/Explore-Glesca-and-Embra-on-interactive-Scots-language-map.aspx
Banff Academy - Claire Needler Jamie Fairbairn
Elphinstone Institute

If any of these communities would like to take on the management of the project, after we have seeded it, then we are absolutely fine with that.

In terms of speakers, it would be far from being the smallest of the current FF languages:



[cid:image0...@01D5E0D5.4611B880]

[cid:image0...@01D5E0D5.4611B880]

[cid:image0...@01D5E0D5.4611B880]

Contrast that with Scots:

[cid:image0...@01D5E0D5.4611B880]

I hope the above will assuage your concerns, as we are keen to get this project off the ground.

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]

From: Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net<mailto:fl...@lodolo.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 11:52 AM
To: dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org<mailto:dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org>
Cc: Françoise Henderson <francoise...@rubric.com<mailto:francoise...@rubric.com>>; Jeff Beatty <jbe...@mozilla.com<mailto:jbe...@mozilla.com>>; Susannah Eccles <susanna...@rubric.com<mailto:susanna...@rubric.com>>
Subject: Re: FF in Scots

Hi Ian,

I have a couple of questions/concerns before enabling this locale for Firefox.

We normally receive requests to enable new languages from individuals or communities. Their motivation is interest in Open Source and Firefox on one side, and promoting their own language through technology on the other. This pushes them to remain engaged over time, test the products, and empower new contributors.

We had cases in the past where similar initiatives from vendors resulted in a complete disconnect from the community (lack of integration with the larger l10n community, lack of openness towards new contributor), and lack of testing, because the main goal was to train new translators. We also ended up with abandoned languages in release, and a lot of work to remove them to minimize the impact on existing users. To avoid the latter, we set the bar much higher to enable new languages in Firefox over the past years.

Will the translators be also charged with testing their work? I'd also like to make sure that the locale remains open to new contributors, as unlikely that might be, given the low number of speakers.

Francesco



Il giorno ven 7 feb 2020 alle ore 20:32 Ian A. Henderson <ian.he...@rubric.com<mailto:ian.he...@rubric.com>> ha scritto:
Hello Flod,

We would like to translate FF into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language. Can you let us know how we should go about this?

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]
Rubric Limited. Registered in Scotland No 489009
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n-new-locales mailing list
dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org<mailto:dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org>
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-new-locales

Francesco Lodolo

unread,
Feb 11, 2020, 11:11:24 AM2/11/20
to Ian A. Henderson, dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Françoise Henderson, Jeff Beatty, Susannah Eccles
Thanks Ian,

I think that solves most of the concerns on my side. I still need
information around Scots though, in order to add the locale to Pontoon.

1) Locale code: sco
2) Language name: Scots

What about plurals? Scots doesn't seem to be available in CLDR.

1) How many plural forms does Scots use?
2) What's the formula used to decide which plural form to use?

Once I have this information, it will take a couple of days to get the
repository set up before I can enable Firefox.


P.S. cak is Kaqchikel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_language

Il giorno mar 11 feb 2020 alle ore 16:31 Ian A. Henderson <
ian.he...@rubric.com> ha scritto:
> Contrast that with Scots:
>
>
>
>
>
> I hope the above will assuage your concerns, as we are keen to get this
> project off the ground.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> *Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer*
> [image: Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
> [image: Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
> [image: In] Ian A. Henderson
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
> https://www.rubric.com
>
> [image: Logo]
>
>
>
> *From:* Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2020 11:52 AM
> *To:* dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org
> *Cc:* Françoise Henderson <francoise...@rubric.com>; Jeff Beatty <
> jbe...@mozilla.com>; Susannah Eccles <susanna...@rubric.com>
> *Subject:* Re: FF in Scots
>
>
>
> Hi Ian,
>
>
>
> I have a couple of questions/concerns before enabling this locale for
> Firefox.
>
>
>
> We normally receive requests to enable new languages from individuals or
> communities. Their motivation is interest in Open Source and Firefox on one
> side, and promoting their own language through technology on the other.
> This pushes them to remain engaged over time, test the products, and
> empower new contributors.
>
>
>
> We had cases in the past where similar initiatives from vendors resulted
> in a complete disconnect from the community (lack of integration with the
> larger l10n community, lack of openness towards new contributor), and lack
> of testing, because the main goal was to train new translators. We also
> ended up with abandoned languages in release, and a lot of work to remove
> them to minimize the impact on existing users. To avoid the latter, we set
> the bar much higher to enable new languages in Firefox over the past years.
>
>
>
> Will the translators be also charged with testing their work? I'd also
> like to make sure that the locale remains open to new contributors, as
> unlikely that might be, given the low number of speakers.
>
>
>
> Francesco
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno ven 7 feb 2020 alle ore 20:32 Ian A. Henderson <
> ian.he...@rubric.com> ha scritto:
>
> Hello Flod,
>
> We would like to translate FF into
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language. Can you let us know how we
> should go about this?
>
> Best regards,
> Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
> [Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
> [Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
> [In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
> [http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG]
> https://www.rubric.com
> [Logo]
> Rubric Limited. Registered in Scotland No 489009
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n-new-locales mailing list
> dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-new-locales
>
>

Ian A. Henderson

unread,
Feb 11, 2020, 11:39:58 AM2/11/20
to Francesco Lodolo, dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Françoise Henderson, Jeff Beatty, Susannah Eccles
Hello Francesco,

I found a reference to Scotland here: http://cldr.unicode.org/translation/displaynames/country-names

CLDR also supports subdivision names<http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/territory_subdivisions.html>, such as for Scotland:


Écosse
·fr·
Escocia
·es· ·gl·
Escócia
·pt·
Escòcia
·ca·
Eskozia
·eu·

http://cldr.unicode.org/development/development-process/design-proposals/languages-to-show-for-translation
Scots [sco]-U
Note Scots is completely different from
Scottish Gaelic [gd]-OR

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]

From: Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net>
Sent: 11 February 2020 16:14
To: Ian A. Henderson <ian.he...@rubric.com>
Cc: dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org; Françoise Henderson <francoise...@rubric.com>; Jeff Beatty <jbe...@mozilla.com>; Susannah Eccles <susanna...@rubric.com>
Subject: Re: FF in Scots

Replying removing the images, otherwise messages keep getting stuck in moderation.

Open questions:

What about plurals? Scots doesn't seem to be available in CLDR.
1) How many plural forms does Scots use?
2) What's the formula used to decide which plural form to use?



Ian A. Henderson

unread,
Feb 11, 2020, 11:45:46 AM2/11/20
to Francesco Lodolo, dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Françoise Henderson, Susannah Eccles
Hello Francesco,

Yes similar to English.

I’ll get back to you once I have the answers to your questions

As an aside, can you remind me where I can find the stats of usage of the different language versions?

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]

From: Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net>
Sent: 11 February 2020 16:31
To: Ian A. Henderson <ian.he...@rubric.com>
Cc: dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org; Françoise Henderson <francoise...@rubric.com>; Susannah Eccles <susanna...@rubric.com>
Subject: Re: FF in Scots

Thanks, I'll wait for an update.

When you say one, I assume it would be two forms like English (1 vs 0/many), not actually one like Chinese?

To give you an idea, for Turkish we use two plural forms: nouns are not declined if following a numeral, but there's plural/singular when no numeral is involved.

Il giorno mar 11 feb 2020 alle ore 17:24 Ian/ A. Henderson <ian.he...@rubric.com<mailto:ian.he...@rubric.com>> ha scritto:
Hello Francesco,

That is great news.

According to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639:s, these two are correct:
1) Locale code: sco
2) Language name: Scots

1) How many plural forms does Scots use?
2) What's the formula used to decide which plural form to use?
To my knowledge there is only one plural form; but I will check. As in English the plural may not always be used, for example nouns of measure and quantity are unchanged in the plural: fower fit (four feet), twa mile (two miles), five pund (five pounds), three hunderwecht (three hundredweight).

Thanks for correcting me on Kaqchikel.

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]

Ian A. Henderson

unread,
Feb 11, 2020, 5:19:40 PM2/11/20
to Francesco Lodolo, dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Françoise Henderson, Jeff Beatty, Susannah Eccles
Il giorno mar 11 feb 2020 alle ore 16:31 Ian A. Henderson <ian.he...@rubric.com<mailto:ian.he...@rubric.com>> ha scritto:
Hello Francesco,

Your concerns are valid; but hardly apply in Rubric’s case.

We would run the project as a normal software project, which includes glossary & style guide development, as well as testing in addition to the translation of course.

As a Scottish based company we have never had a request to translate into Scots, so our motivation not to train translators for use on other projects. We would necessarily have try and tap into existing communities out there, e.g.

The Doric Board encourages Doric-related projects; see the website, www.doricboard.com<http://www.doricboard.com>
Scots Language Forum on Facebook
https://www.scotslanguage.com/news
https://www.scotsradio.com/
Oor Vyce - Scottish Borders-based Thomas, 39, who works at Hawick High School, has already translated Jeff Kinney’s best-selling Diary of a Wimpy Kid. His version won the Scots Language Awards Scots Bairns’ Book of the Year accolade.
https://scilt.org.uk/News/NewsView/tabid/1311/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/13254/Explore-Glesca-and-Embra-on-interactive-Scots-language-map.aspx
Banff Academy - Claire Needler Jamie Fairbairn
Elphinstone Institute

If any of these communities would like to take on the management of the project, after we have seeded it, then we are absolutely fine with that.

In terms of speakers, it would be far from being the smallest of the current FF languages:



[cid:image0...@01D5E0F7.913AC730]

[cid:image0...@01D5E0F7.913AC730]

[cid:image0...@01D5E0F7.913AC730]

Contrast that with Scots:

[cid:image0...@01D5E0F7.913AC730]

I hope the above will assuage your concerns, as we are keen to get this project off the ground.

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]

From: Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net<mailto:fl...@lodolo.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 11:52 AM
To: dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org<mailto:dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org>
Cc: Françoise Henderson <francoise...@rubric.com<mailto:francoise...@rubric.com>>; Jeff Beatty <jbe...@mozilla.com<mailto:jbe...@mozilla.com>>; Susannah Eccles <susanna...@rubric.com<mailto:susanna...@rubric.com>>
Subject: Re: FF in Scots

Hi Ian,

I have a couple of questions/concerns before enabling this locale for Firefox.

We normally receive requests to enable new languages from individuals or communities. Their motivation is interest in Open Source and Firefox on one side, and promoting their own language through technology on the other. This pushes them to remain engaged over time, test the products, and empower new contributors.

We had cases in the past where similar initiatives from vendors resulted in a complete disconnect from the community (lack of integration with the larger l10n community, lack of openness towards new contributor), and lack of testing, because the main goal was to train new translators. We also ended up with abandoned languages in release, and a lot of work to remove them to minimize the impact on existing users. To avoid the latter, we set the bar much higher to enable new languages in Firefox over the past years.

Will the translators be also charged with testing their work? I'd also like to make sure that the locale remains open to new contributors, as unlikely that might be, given the low number of speakers.

Francesco



Il giorno ven 7 feb 2020 alle ore 20:32 Ian A. Henderson <ian.he...@rubric.com<mailto:ian.he...@rubric.com>> ha scritto:
Hello Flod,

We would like to translate FF into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language. Can you let us know how we should go about this?

Best regards,
Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer
[Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
[Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
[In] Ian A. Henderson<https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
[http://images.rubric.com/en/email/footer/email_footer_Long_WWW.PNG] https://www.rubric.com
[Logo]
Rubric Limited. Registered in Scotland No 489009
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n-new-locales mailing list
dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org<mailto:dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org>
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-new-locales

Francesco Lodolo

unread,
Feb 11, 2020, 5:19:40 PM2/11/20
to Ian A. Henderson, dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org, Françoise Henderson, Susannah Eccles
Thanks, I'll wait for an update.

When you say one, I assume it would be two forms like English (1 vs
0/many), not actually one like Chinese?

To give you an idea, for Turkish we use two plural forms: nouns are not
declined if following a numeral, but there's plural/singular when no
numeral is involved.

Il giorno mar 11 feb 2020 alle ore 17:24 Ian/ A. Henderson <
ian.he...@rubric.com> ha scritto:

> Hello Francesco,
>
>
>
> That is great news.
>
>
>
> According to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639:s, these two are
> correct:
>
> 1) Locale code: sco
>
> 2) Language name: Scots
>
>
>
> 1) How many plural forms does Scots use?
>
> 2) What's the formula used to decide which plural form to use?
>
> To my knowledge there is only one plural form; but I will check. As in
> English the plural may not always be used, for example nouns of measure and
> quantity are unchanged in the plural: fower fit (four feet), twa mile (two
> miles), five pund (five pounds), three hunderwecht (three hundredweight).
>
>
>
> Thanks for correcting me on Kaqchikel.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> *Ian A. Henderson, Chief Technology Officer*
> [image: Addr] 5 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, EH2 4DR, Scotland
> [image: Tel] +44 (0)7713 742522
> [image: In] Ian A. Henderson
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-henderson-770a8/>
> https://www.rubric.com
>
> [image: Logo]
>
>
>
> *From:* Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net>
> *Sent:* 11 February 2020 16:04
> *To:* Ian A. Henderson <ian.he...@rubric.com>
> *Cc:* dev-l10n-n...@lists.mozilla.org; Françoise Henderson <
> francoise...@rubric.com>; Jeff Beatty <jbe...@mozilla.com>;
> Susannah Eccles <susanna...@rubric.com>
> *Subject:* Re: FF in Scots
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages