New Tb startup design problem

[Mike Easter]

A new Tb (no existing profile) should not start up in new mail account
wizard. A number of people are 'coming to' Tb looking for a news
client, not a mail agent. They can't even identify Tb as able to make a
new news account.

A new Tb should not start up in the default no Menu bar. The default
should have the Menu bar view enabled which can be disabled.

In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to make a
new news account with a fresh/virgin Tb. In order to get out of the new
mail account wizard, one has to create a new mail account which can have
unintended consequences of downloading mail from such as a gmail account
configured for another pop/imap client.

In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to even
get to someplace to create a new news account because there is no File
menu and there is no sensible way to get into account settings to create
a new news account because the only way to get in there is such as to
modify the existing mail account which wasn't wanted or some other
non-intuitive move unrelated to trying to make a new news account.


--
Mike Easter

[Blake Winton]

On 02-05-13 10:35 , Mike Easter wrote:
> A new Tb (no existing profile) should not start up in new mail account
> wizard. A number of people are 'coming to' Tb looking for a news
> client, not a mail agent. They can't even identify Tb as able to make a
> new news account.

2/3rds of the people we surveyed expected Thunderbird to provide them
with an email account. While I'm certain _some_ people coming to TB are
looking for a news client, I'm just as certain that those people are in
the minority by a huge margin.

> In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to make a
> new news account with a fresh/virgin Tb. In order to get out of the new
> mail account wizard, one has to create a new mail account which can have
> unintended consequences of downloading mail from such as a gmail account
> configured for another pop/imap client.

You can also escape out of the new mail account wizard, although
Thunderbird was really intended to be used as an email client, so not
setting up an email account may lead to some strangeness.

> In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to even
> get to someplace to create a new news account

I agree that it could be made easier, although given that creating a new
account is one of the least-frequent things people do in Thunderbird,
I'm not sure whether giving it more emphasis is really the right thing
to do.

Thanks for your post,
Blake.

[Mike Easter]

Blake Winton wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> A new Tb (no existing profile) should not start up in new mail account
>> wizard. A number of people are 'coming to' Tb looking for a news
>> client, not a mail agent. They can't even identify Tb as able to make a
>> new news account.
>
> 2/3rds of the people we surveyed expected Thunderbird to provide them
> with an email account.

That doesn't mean the startup should start in a wizard. A startup
should start in a more basic mode rather than some sub-routine.

> While I'm certain _some_ people coming to TB are
> looking for a news client, I'm just as certain that those people are in
> the minority by a huge margin.

Just because one particular type of user is in the minority doesn't mean
that the doors should be practically locked up against them.

>> In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to make a
>> new news account with a fresh/virgin Tb. In order to get out of the new
>> mail account wizard, one has to create a new mail account which can have
>> unintended consequences of downloading mail from such as a gmail account
>> configured for another pop/imap client.
>
> You can also escape out of the new mail account wizard, although
> Thunderbird was really intended to be used as an email client, so not
> setting up an email account may lead to some strangeness.

The most logical way to escape from the wizard is to make a new mail
account and withhold the pass; but that trick may not be in the new
user's bag of tricks.

>> In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to even
>> get to someplace to create a new news account
>
> I agree that it could be made easier,

What exactly is the purpose of making it harder?

> although given that creating a new account is one of the
> least-frequent things people do in Thunderbird, I'm not sure whether
> giving it more emphasis is really the right thing to do.

I'm not talking about giving the making of a new news account emphasis.
I'm talking about there not even being a sensible pathway to doing so.
Only being able to start Tb in the new mail wizard with no menu bar is
too restrictive to using the app.

My suggestion is to start Tb in a basic mode, as has been in the past,
with a Menu bar, as has been in the past. These changes are 'contrary'
to some uses of the program.

> Thanks for your post,

You're welcome. I'm still here.


--
Mike Easter

[alta88[nntp]]

---On 2013.May.02 9:53 AM, Blake Winton wrote:
> On 02-05-13 10:35 , Mike Easter wrote:
>> A new Tb (no existing profile) should not start up in new mail account
>> wizard. A number of people are 'coming to' Tb looking for a news
>> client, not a mail agent. They can't even identify Tb as able to make a
>> new news account.
>
> 2/3rds of the people we surveyed expected Thunderbird to provide them
> with an email account. While I'm certain _some_ people coming to TB are
> looking for a news client, I'm just as certain that those people are in
> the minority by a huge margin.
>
>> In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to make a
>> new news account with a fresh/virgin Tb. In order to get out of the new
>> mail account wizard, one has to create a new mail account which can have
>> unintended consequences of downloading mail from such as a gmail account
>> configured for another pop/imap client.
>
> You can also escape out of the new mail account wizard, although
> Thunderbird was really intended to be used as an email client, so not
> setting up an email account may lead to some strangeness.
>

This is certainly incorrect historically (newsgroups were there at the
beginning, feeds were added many years ago, chat was added just
recently). Is this a new official position today? Does it mean non
mail functionality is to be left broken?

>> In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to even
>> get to someplace to create a new news account
>
> I agree that it could be made easier, although given that creating a new
> account is one of the least-frequent things people do in Thunderbird,
> I'm not sure whether giving it more emphasis is really the right thing
> to do.
>

But are you actually against making it easier, in a WONTFIX sort of way?

[Blake Winton]

On 02-05-13 14:13 , alta88[nntp] wrote:
> This is certainly incorrect historically (newsgroups were there at the
> beginning, feeds were added many years ago, chat was added just
> recently). Is this a new official position today? Does it mean non
> mail functionality is to be left broken?

Heck no. I'm pretty sure I don't post official positions in newsgroups.
That's what tb-planning and the blog are for. My personal opinion is
that we should definitely fix non-mail functionality. And even
less-used mail functionality (like filters! Yeah, I like them too, but
they're not our most-used feature ;).

>>> In its existing condition, it is completely non-intuitive how to even
>>> get to someplace to create a new news account
>> I agree that it could be made easier, although given that creating a new
>> account is one of the least-frequent things people do in Thunderbird,
>> I'm not sure whether giving it more emphasis is really the right thing
>> to do.
> But are you actually against making it easier, in a WONTFIX sort of way?

I can imagine scenarios where I wouldn't WONTFIX a solution. But I
strongly feel that the proposed solution of not helping 2/3rds of our
new downloaders to cater to such a small minority isn't a good way to go.

Alternative solutions would be greatly appreciated, and happily
considered. :) (Perhaps it's time for someone to file a bug, asking
for it to be easier to set up an NNTP account on first-run?)

Thanks,
Blake.

[Mike Easter]

Blake Winton wrote:

> Alternative solutions would be greatly appreciated, and happily
> considered. :) (Perhaps it's time for someone to file a bug, asking
> for it to be easier to set up an NNTP account on first-run?)

Historically Tb has started not in new mail account wizard and with a
Menu bar. That traditional Tb would be 'fine' for creating either a new
mail or news account.

It seems to me that starting up in new email wizard was someone's bright
idea that has unintended consequences; as was starting up in default no
menu bar mode.


--
Mike Easter

[WaltS]

I seem to recall that starting up in the new mail account wizard was to
help new users that needed an email account, but didn't have the
slightest inkling how to do that.

Maybe the new mail wizard could have an additional button along with the
"Skip this and use my existing email", and "I think I'll configure my
account later" buttons.

Maybe "Skip this and setup other account", that opens the Account
Settings window.

Making "Account Settings" easier to find in the AppMenu might be easier.

--
openSUSE 12.3 (64-bit) KDE 4.10.2
Thunderbird Release

[Blake Winton]

On 02-05-13 15:58 , WaltS wrote:
> I seem to recall that starting up in the new mail account wizard was to
> help new users that needed an email account, but didn't have the
> slightest inkling how to do that.
>
> Maybe the new mail wizard could have an additional button along with the
> "Skip this and use my existing email", and "I think I'll configure my
> account later" buttons.
>
> Maybe "Skip this and setup other account", that opens the Account
> Settings window.
>
> Making "Account Settings" easier to find in the AppMenu might be easier.

Those both seem like better suggestions to me.

Thanks,
Blake.

[Mike Easter]

WaltS wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> Blake Winton wrote:
>>
>>> Alternative solutions would be greatly appreciated,

>> Historically Tb has started not in new mail account wizard and with a
>> Menu bar. That traditional Tb would be 'fine' for creating either a new
>> mail or news account.

> I seem to recall that starting up in the new mail account wizard was to
> help new users that needed an email account, but didn't have the
> slightest inkling how to do that.

Taking away the menu bar 'in favor of' helping a new user navigate
doesn't seem consistent to me. People are familiar with menu bars to
help them find their way around.

It seems that letting Tb make assumptions about what someone wants to do
while preventing them from doing anything else or even finding their way
around is too much like a black box approach.

> Maybe the new mail wizard could have an additional button along with the
> "Skip this and use my existing email", and "I think I'll configure my
> account later" buttons.

That would be a big help so that they could bail out of that wizard to a
normal basic Tb interface -- but it would need a menu bar. The new user
has to get to the different places such as new accounts and other
locations found in the menus.

I think the absence of the menu bar is an even worse bright idea than
the starting in the new mail wizard; or maybe we could debate 'equally bad'.

> Maybe "Skip this and setup other account", that opens the Account
> Settings window.

I agree with Blake that a minority may be setting up news first, but the
new mail wizard subroutine is wa-a-a-ay too restrictive a place to start
from.

Perhaps the developer design sequence was that someone wanted to get rid
of the menu bar in favor of 'clean' and uncluttered and then once they
did that they realized that a new user wouldn't be able to create a new
mail account without some kind of help so they came up with the solution
to start Tb in the new mail wizard.

A better thought process IMO would have been to not get rid of the menu
bar and find some other way to aid the new user from the first display
one sees in such as the message pane of a basic mode.

If the big problem is that there is no 'basic mode' or even Local
folders view possible until there is some kind of account, then I'll
have to recall 'how it used to be' that Tb could be started without
being in new mail account wizard.

> Making "Account Settings" easier to find in the AppMenu might be easier.

In the current configuration, one cannot get to the Account settings by
any kind of logical thinking. There isn't a 'make new account' in the
message pane area, only such as Edit an exiting mail account and other
choices unrelated to making a new news account.


--
Mike Easter

[alta88[nntp]]

---On 2013.May.02 12:47 PM, Blake Winton wrote:
> Alternative solutions would be greatly appreciated, and happily
> considered. :) (Perhaps it's time for someone to file a bug, asking
> for it to be easier to set up an NNTP account on first-run?)
>

Great ;)

Here's my proposal, which I will even implement..

- Account central page (first page shown on clean install), under Create
a new account, will show a flex/wrappable row containing:
[icon]Get New mail [icon]Existing mail [icon]Chat
[icon]Newsgroup [icon]Feed [icon]Movemail (ifdef linux)
- Each item will be a link.
- Each link will bring up a dialog/wizard specific to the account type.
- No more general wizard.
- Cancelling Get New Mail wizard will leave the Account Central page in
clear view.
- Bonus: get rid of account items in File->New, Appmenu->New Message

Btw, there's a feed related bug already.

[Mark Filipak]

May I suggest that the most logical way to accommodate all people all of the
time is to move all of the 'New' functions to a 'New Setup Wizard'.

The 'New Setup Wizard' could look like this:


Check one or more of new account(s) you want to set up.
[ ] New email account(s) using new email server.
[ ] New email account(s) using existing email server.
[ ] New email account(s) imported from existing email client.
[ ] New newsgroup account(s) using new newsgroup server.
[ ] New newsgroup account(s) using existing newsgroup server.
[ ] New newsgroup account(s) imported from existing newsgroup client.
[ ] New chat account(s)...
[ ] New blog(s) & news feed(s)...


The 'New Setup Wizard' could be automatically a 1st-run application or
reachable from 'File' > 'New'.

[WaltS]

On 05/02/2013 04:26 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Taking away the menu bar 'in favor of' helping a new user navigate
> doesn't seem consistent to me. People are familiar with menu bars to
> help them find their way around.

Another glitch is that if you don't setup an email account you don't get
to see the Mail Start page, with the Learn More link to

<https://support.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/kb/what-happened-thunderbird-file-edit-and-view-menus>

under the What happened to the Thunderbird File, Edit, and View menus?
heading.

So basically you want the Menu Bar back on by default.

[Mark Filipak]

I prefer my proposal for

1, By having all the check-offs in one place, it allows users to launch all the
required setups at one time rather than having to repeatedly run the wizard and
mentally keep track of what's been done and what remains to be done,

2, It doesn't enforce some arbitrary organization on the user, but shows the
user all the possible 'new' things so there's a single, logical path, thereby
avoiding confusion,

3, It removes multiple menu methods that create 'new' accounts, thereby
funneling all through the wizard and further reducing confusion.
--
The Insect Hall of Fame:
Thunderbird Bug 121947 - 11 years and counting.

[Magnus Melin]

On 02.05.2013 22:23, Mike Easter wrote:
> Blake Winton wrote:
>
>> Alternative solutions would be greatly appreciated, and happily
>> considered. :) (Perhaps it's time for someone to file a bug, asking
>> for it to be easier to set up an NNTP account on first-run?)
>
> Historically Tb has started not in new mail account wizard and with a
> Menu bar.

Actually i'm pretty sure the new account wizard has popped up since
forever. (Though pre tb3 it was the "old style" wizard where you'd
choose account type and such first...)


-Magnus

[Mike Easter]

Now that I think on it, it has been a long time since I started a virgin
Tb without profile until I did so recently with Tb 17.0.5, so my
knowledge of history is lacking.

I thought I recalled starting virgin Tb with various linux live .iso
boots, but maybe I wasn't trying to create a new news account. Somehow
the v. 17 seemed very 'different' in locking me out of access to
creating a new news account.


--
Mike Easter

[JoeS]

I agree to this approach. returning to this screen after each setup.
Asking a new user to select all needs before proceeding,I think might be
asking too much.

Don't blame you for asking for a tentative approval before working on
this, but nothing happens without a bug :}
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=868824

[Mark Banner]

On 02/05/2013 22:56, Mark Filipak wrote:
> I prefer my proposal for
>
> 1, By having all the check-offs in one place, it allows users to launch
> all the required setups at one time rather than having to repeatedly run
> the wizard and mentally keep track of what's been done and what remains
> to be done,

Unfortunately, I fear the user would be put off by the large number of
check boxes and combinations. To me, it would also feel demanding to me
that I must select everything I've got and set it up, when really I
might just want to set up one account to try Thunderbird out.

> 2, It doesn't enforce some arbitrary organization on the user, but shows
> the user all the possible 'new' things so there's a single, logical
> path, thereby avoiding confusion,

I think Alta88's proposal does this just fine as everything would be on
the same page in just the same way as yours.

Mark.

[Mark Banner]

On 02/05/2013 22:10, alta88[nntp] wrote:
> Here's my proposal, which I will even implement..
>
> - Account central page (first page shown on clean install), under Create
> a new account, will show a flex/wrappable row containing:
> [icon]Get New mail [icon]Existing mail [icon]Chat
> [icon]Newsgroup [icon]Feed [icon]Movemail (ifdef linux)

Probably need to see what it looks like in real life, but I think we
could just have mail accounts as one item. Might need a slight tweak on
the get new email wizard to make the existing button more obvious, but I
think having two buttons may be a bit much.

> - Each item will be a link.
> - Each link will bring up a dialog/wizard specific to the account type.
> - No more general wizard.
> - Cancelling Get New Mail wizard will leave the Account Central page in
> clear view.
> - Bonus: get rid of account items in File->New, Appmenu->New Message

I don't quite see the rationale for getting rid of these menu items.
Some users like to have these available, rather than having to click
through windows/dialogs. I guess I'd need to see the full flow to
understand what you're thinking about here.

Mark.

[Mark Filipak]

On 2013/5/7 3:31 AM, Mark Banner wrote:
> On 02/05/2013 22:56, Mark Filipak wrote:
>> I prefer my proposal for
>>
>> 1, By having all the check-offs in one place, it allows users to launch
>> all the required setups at one time rather than having to repeatedly run
>> the wizard and mentally keep track of what's been done and what remains
>> to be done,
>
> Unfortunately, I fear the user would be put off by the large number of check
> boxes and combinations. To me, it would also feel demanding to me that I must
> select everything I've got and set it up, when really I might just want to set
> up one account to try Thunderbird out.

I can understand your apprehension, but the user wouldn't have to select
everything, just what he/she wants to do at the 'current' time.

If I understand alta88's proposal, the user would not be able to do a number of
setups/imports/conversions without rerunning the wizard a number of times.

In my proposal, the user could do the same thing ...or he/she would have the
option to list everything to do on the wizard's first page and then the wizard
would get details for each checked option (setup/import/convert) as needed
without the user having to rerun the wizard. When the wizard was done, all of
the checked tasks would have been completed.

I don't have my first message on this thread, and I couldn't find this thread
on Google Groups, but I think I had only 5 checkboxes - not too many.

You have your opinion and I have mine - that's discussion. The decision will
probably be up to whomever does the coding. That's fine with me.

[clay]

There you go. The old one let us choose up front, which type of account
we wanted to create. It did not force us to actually create an account
before moving on.
The old one we could just plug in gibberish and, providing we remember
to check the don't get mail button, it would create a profile and be
done with it. Then we could drop our existing profile into the newly
created profile folder. Done.
The new one nags and snivels and whimpers until we're forced to put
legit info in it, all the while it's trying to connect to a server. Only
after wrestling with it does it give up and create a profile folder we
can use.
I realize Mozilla is following in Microsoft's footsteps, making apps and
"Wizards" for the idiot masses, but I don't see the point in shutting
out the few that have a clue along the way..?