TB2: Roadmap, end-of-support/life statement?
Craig
We are looking for a roadmap and/or end-of-life statement for
Thunderbird 2.
We haven't been able to find the answer on mozillamessaging, mozillazine
or getsatisfaction (although the question is there:
<http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla_messaging/topics/end_of_the_line_for_thunderbird_2_0_0_x>).
The reason I ask is that TB2 made our list of 'recommended' software a
few months back & now we're looking to draft a statement as an update.
tia,
-Craig
Joshua Cranmer
> We are looking for a roadmap and/or end-of-life statement for
> Thunderbird 2.
The traditional Mozilla policy is to end-of-life 6 months after the new
version, which would imply that Thunderbird 2 will stop receiving
security updates around next May or June (Thunderbird 3 was released
last November, IIRC).
I am not an official driver, though, so my word is just speculation.
David Ascher
Our primary concern w.r.t. announcing end-of-support of a major release
is a) very strongly encouraging users to move to a more secure product,
for their own safety and b) managing the increasingly burdensome
maintenance load of keeping the older versions up to date with respect
to security fixes.
Thus the exact timing of the end-of-support for TB2 will likely be
determined by a looking at a variety of factors:
1) The previously-mentioned 6-months default policy
2) The number of users who are still on TB2 relative to our total user
base, and relative to the number of users that we think can/should/will
upgrade.
3) whether there are still issues in the 2->3 upgrade path that are
problematic enough for enough users that they are significant blockers
to upgrade, and that need to be addressed (through bug fixes in
subsequent releases, add-ons, or workarounds)
4) the cost/effort/complexity of continuing TB2 maintenance given the
age of the underlying platform, especially now that Firefox isn't an
active user of that version of Gecko.
5) the security landscape for TB 2.0 and 3.0 (and Gecko 1.8 vs Gecko
1.9.1, etc.)
.. and probably other factors I forget.
In other words, it's complicated. I don't think we're able to make a
definite statement at this stage. We will endeavor to give as much
warning as we can when we are able to make a decision. It will likely
not happen before we do the "major update push" to proactively get TB2
users to switch to TB3, which in turn will be when we feel that the
TB2->TB3 upgrade has reached the right level (the 3.0.0 release flagged
some upgrade bugs, which we're actively working on).
Hope this is helpful.
--david
Craig
> My own 2c.
> ...
> 1) The previously-mentioned 6-months default policy
> Hope this is helpful.
>
Yes, thank you & everyone else who chimed in. I parsed back heavily on
your post because I think I'll just float "generally around 6 months"
after the release of the new version.
/Profoundly/ emphasizing "generally" and "around." <grin>
Much appreciated,
-Craig
Robert Kaiser
> In other words, it's complicated. I don't think we're able to make a
> definite statement at this stage.
The same is true for SeaMonkey, by the way. We should really start
telling users the story that we don't maintain the 1.8.1-based releases
as well as the newer ones, and security problems in TB 2.0 and SM 1.1
might take multiple weeks to get resolved while we're fast on updating
TB 3.0 and SM 2.0 for security issues.
I think we'll have at least one or two security releases from 1.8.1
still, but I doubt we'll have much more than that.
Robert Kaiser
Timo Pietilä
That is bad news for corporate users, because TB2 -> TB3 for example is
horrendous upgrade for this kind of environment, and apparently there is
no way to tell TB3 to keep UI as close to TB2 UI as possible (+ other
install-time tweaks). We don't have any other choice than to keep on
using old versions until TB3 has bugs resolved and installation process
streamlined.
Or we could drop support for TB altogether and tell our users that TB
sucks so badly that we can't afford maintaining it anymore (and
uninstall it from every computer). That would obviously be bad for
Mozilla corp reputation, so I wouldn't do that unless absolutely necessary.
Timo Pietil�
Chris Ilias
> That is bad news for corporate users, because TB2 -> TB3 for example is
> horrendous upgrade for this kind of environment, and apparently there is
> no way to tell TB3 to keep UI as close to TB2 UI as possible (+ other
> install-time tweaks). We don't have any other choice than to keep on
> using old versions until TB3 has bugs resolved and installation process
> streamlined.
I think the best thing to do here is list - on a page somewhere like
wiki.mozilla.org - all the bugs you see, and make sure each specific bug
is filed in bugzilla.mozilla.org.
If the bugs are valid, you can work with the TB team to get them
addressed in the next TB3 update.
Peter Lairo
> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>>>
>>> I think we'll have at least one or two security releases from 1.8.1
>>> still, but I doubt we'll have much more than that.
>>
>> That is bad news for corporate users, because TB2 -> TB3 for example is
>> horrendous upgrade for this kind of environment
>
> describe it. Sure, there are some UI changes, but it's not like it is a
> totally different application and a totally different GUI. The move from
> Office 2003 to Office 2007 with its new ribbon-interface for example way
> way more intrusive than what Thunderbird is doing here.
I think you are underestimating how bad many users (incl. apparently the
OP) think moving the primary buttons (Reply, Forward, Delete) from the
Mail Toolbar to the Header Pane was.
>> and apparently there is no way to tell TB3 to keep UI as close to TB2
>> UI as possible (+ other install-time tweaks). We don't have any other
>> choice than to keep on using old versions until TB3 has bugs resolved
>> and installation process streamlined.
>
> There are bugs that address some of the early feedback from TB3 early
> adopters, that are actively worked on right now, e.g. the (somewhat
> hidden) move to the smart folders display will be adjusted.
But there is no way to prevent the installer from removing the buttons
from the Mail Toolbar to the Header Pane! Not to mention that *not*
rearranging the UI should have been the default.
BTW: The MS Office ribbon looks pretty(!), but it sucks (i.e., it's a
space hog, not configurable, limited functionality). I find the Ribbon
highly unconvincing as (the too often used) example of changed UI.
PS. Below are the bugs (incl. for Thunderbird) I think would be a far
better investment of the devs' time...
--
Regards,
Peter Lairo
Bugs I think should be fixed ASAP:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=250539
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391057
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436259
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=446444
Islam: http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/
Israel: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/
Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://www.venganza.org/
Anthropogenic Global Warming skepsis: http://tinyurl.com/AGW-Skepsis
Rolf Gloor
>> That is bad news for corporate users, because TB2 -> TB3 for example is
>> horrendous upgrade for this kind of environment
>
> Why exactly? TB3 is in so many ways better than TB2 that I can't even
> describe it. Sure, there are some UI changes, but it's not like it is a
> totally different application and a totally different GUI. The move from
> Office 2003 to Office 2007 with its new ribbon-interface for example way
> way more intrusive than what Thunderbird is doing here.
WHY: Because many important things are left to 3rd party developers /
add-ons.
Many of those are not yet ready.
- under Win: proper integration of Kaspersky Internet Security 2010
- SyncML client funambol: Heavy bugs -> no sync with online GroupWare
- extended Address Book fields (add-on) to handle more of important
Outlook data
..just to name a few.
So many users still stick with TB 2.x until 3.x - including add-ons - is
ready for prime time.
>> and apparently there is no way to tell TB3 to keep UI as close to TB2
>> UI as possible (+ other install-time tweaks). We don't have any other
>> choice than to keep on using old versions until TB3 has bugs resolved
>> and installation process streamlined.
>
> There are bugs that address some of the early feedback from TB3 early
> adopters, that are actively worked on right now, e.g. the (somewhat
> hidden) move to the smart folders display will be adjusted.
>
> Simon Paquet
Yes: But working on them and having them ready, up-and-running, is a
different world.
And still: As soon as ready: Many corporations need some time for
testing and preparation for the switch.
So my vote would be:
As soon as MOST of the important cases and add-on issues are solved,
only THEN start with the 6 month notice period.
Just my 2 cents.
Greetings from cold and snowy Switzerland,
Rolf
Ron K.
> Peter Lairo wrote:
>
>>>> That is bad news for corporate users, because TB2 -> TB3 for example is
>>>> horrendous upgrade for this kind of environment
>> I think you are underestimating how bad many users (incl. apparently the
>> OP) think moving the primary buttons (Reply, Forward, Delete) from the
>> Mail Toolbar to the Header Pane was.
>
> I do not underestimate it. It is a far less intrusive change than the
> Office Ribbon interface change.
>
>> But there is no way to prevent the installer from removing the buttons
>>from the Mail Toolbar to the Header Pane! Not to mention that *not*
>> rearranging the UI should have been the default.
>
> You can make those buttons in the header pane disappear via
> user-chrome.css. You can also customize your main toolbar to show the
> reply, forward and delete buttons again. I know, because I did just that.
>
What is needed is an installer that an IT person can customize for there
rollout. Tey need the ability to reset defaults and also bundle add-ons (
compact header extension comes to mind).
--
Ron K.
Who is General Failure, and why is he searching my HDD?
Kernel Restore reported Major Error used BSOD to msg the enemy!
Craig
> I think you are underestimating how bad many users (incl. apparently the
> OP) think moving the primary buttons (Reply, Forward, Delete) from the
> Mail Toolbar to the Header Pane was.
Just a point of clarification... I'm the OP and the button-move isn't a
major issue for me or the other worker in this office. I'm guessing you
meant Timo Pietilä.
fyi,
-Craig
Timo Pietilä
> Timo Pietil� wrote:
>
>>>> In other words, it's complicated. I don't think we're able to make a
>>>> definite statement at this stage.
>>> The same is true for SeaMonkey, by the way. We should really start
>>> telling users the story that we don't maintain the 1.8.1-based releases
>>> as well as the newer ones, and security problems in TB 2.0 and SM 1.1
>>> might take multiple weeks to get resolved while we're fast on updating
>>> TB 3.0 and SM 2.0 for security issues.
>>> I think we'll have at least one or two security releases from 1.8.1
>>> still, but I doubt we'll have much more than that.
>> That is bad news for corporate users, because TB2 -> TB3 for example is
>
> Why exactly? TB3 is in so many ways better than TB2 that I can't even
> describe it.
Sure you can: There are....not many better things. Better message
filters comes to mind, that's all. Tabs are not much improvement. Some
things are actually worse: showing "you" in sender when you have send
the message is worse than showing full address, because you don't see
which identity you have used to send that message. Also stupid folders
which for some reason has name smart folders is bad. Maybe someone can
like it, but I doubt many do.
> Sure, there are some UI changes, but it's not like it is a
> totally different application and a totally different GUI. The move from
> Office 2003 to Office 2007 with its new ribbon-interface for example way
> way more intrusive than what Thunderbird is doing here.
You expect us to go 6 month campaign for advertising that this change
will happen and offer people education for TB? That's what we did for
Office 2007. Those two are not comparable. TB is simple email program,
and as such upgrading should be easy task. Currently it isn't.
>> and apparently there is no way to tell TB3 to keep UI as close to TB2
>> UI as possible (+ other install-time tweaks). We don't have any other
>> choice than to keep on using old versions until TB3 has bugs resolved
>> and installation process streamlined.
>
> There are bugs that address some of the early feedback from TB3 early
> adopters, that are actively worked on right now, e.g. the (somewhat
> hidden) move to the smart folders display will be adjusted.
Most of those that keeps us from upgrading are not bugs. Those are
design flaws. As such can't really be reported as bugs in bugzilla (or
can they?).
But main point is that there is currently security hole in TB2 and has
been for some time now that has been fixed in TB3 and we can't upgrade
to TB3. If this bad support for TB2 keeps on going we can only assume
that TB support in general is so bad that we need to drop it from
maintained program list, which would be bad reputation for Mozilla corp.
and I would need to start using either out webmail (urgh) or something
like MS outlook (argh), and OE for newsgroups (aargh).
PEASE, keep TB2 support up to date and fast as long as TB3 has bugs and
default settings for migration process for it are not adjustable.
Timo Pietil�
JarrE
Please read the above carefully (developers).
For me: I can use pine, outlook or whatever; but I've got 60k users and
currently have to repack Thunderbird to a msi (which is foolish, if a
msi-version had been available I could have used a transform and saved a
couple of days of testing for each release). We can not yet use TB3 and
if support for TB2 has to be stopped (by us, because of security, or EOL)
Thunderbird is gone and will not come back (changing default e-mail
client is not done often. Last time was Eudora -> TB in 2004)
I see that TB3 have come to stay, but the general opinion (here) is that
it is not an improvement (the search function is better, but it is better
in win7 anyway, so not important), which leaves me an uphill climb in
upgrading (the users prefer not to be upgraded when all one has are
technical improvements) in the first place. When they can not use from a
technical view either) it is a dead product. So; if TB2 reaches it's EOL
before TB3 is useable you will loose many users...
My 2c/
JarrE
Timo Pietilä
This is the same I have to do. Repackage to MSI. I don't have 60k users,
but I do have over 10k. Repackaging itself is pretty straightforward,
but lack of tweaking possibilities is bothersome.
> We can not yet use TB3 and
> if support for TB2 has to be stopped (by us, because of security, or
> EOL) Thunderbird is gone and will not come back (changing default e-mail
> client is not done often. Last time was Eudora -> TB in 2004)
Exactly same situation here. And I bet it is the same in most corporate
environments.
> I see that TB3 have come to stay, but the general opinion (here) is that
> it is not an improvement (the search function is better, but it is
> better in win7 anyway, so not important), which leaves me an uphill
> climb in upgrading (the users prefer not to be upgraded when all one has
> are technical improvements) in the first place. When they can not use
> from a technical view either) it is a dead product. So; if TB2 reaches
> it's EOL before TB3 is useable you will loose many users...
Especially because many users would use same email program at home as
they use at work if possible. Loss of users is much more than just
corporate users, not to mention reputation loss.
Timo Pietil�
Mark Banner
> JarrE wrote:
>> We can not yet use TB3 and if support for TB2 has to be stopped (by
>> us, because of security, or EOL) Thunderbird is gone and will not come
>> back (changing default e-mail client is not done often. Last time was
>> Eudora -> TB in 2004)
>
> Exactly same situation here. And I bet it is the same in most corporate
> environments.
Heading off into a discussion of support situations for Thunderbird 2
isn't going to help us come up with solutions for moving to Thunderbird
3 - which I think is the more important situation here.
I have already responded to your message entitled "Re: TB2 -> TB3 in
corporate environment" and asked you a question in it so that we can
start getting some idea of how to move forward.
From you answers in this thread, I guess you repackage in MSI format,
but to expand on my question, do you also set up preferences/package
extensions or otherwise? (it would probably be best to answer in the
other, already started, thread so that the discussions are
separate/clearer).
Standard8
Peter Lairo
> Peter Lairo wrote:
>
>>>>> I think we'll have at least one or two security releases from 1.8.1
>>>>> still, but I doubt we'll have much more than that.
>>>>
>>>> That is bad news for corporate users, because TB2 -> TB3 for example is
>>>> horrendous upgrade for this kind of environment
>>>
>>> Why exactly? TB3 is in so many ways better than TB2 that I can't even
>>> describe it. Sure, there are some UI changes, but it's not like it is a
>>> totally different application and a totally different GUI. The move from
>>> Office 2003 to Office 2007 with its new ribbon-interface for example way
>>> way more intrusive than what Thunderbird is doing here.
>>
>> I think you are underestimating how bad many users (incl. apparently the
>> OP) think moving the primary buttons (Reply, Forward, Delete) from the
>> Mail Toolbar to the Header Pane was.
>
> Office Ribbon interface change.
Whether it's "less" intrusive is irrelevant. It is still "very"
intrusive. That is what matters most.
>>>> and apparently there is no way to tell TB3 to keep UI as close to TB2
>>>> UI as possible (+ other install-time tweaks). We don't have any other
>>>> choice than to keep on using old versions until TB3 has bugs resolved
>>>> and installation process streamlined.
>>>
>>> There are bugs that address some of the early feedback from TB3 early
>>> adopters, that are actively worked on right now, e.g. the (somewhat
>>> hidden) move to the smart folders display will be adjusted.
>>
>> But there is no way to prevent the installer from removing the buttons
>>from the Mail Toolbar to the Header Pane! Not to mention that *not*
>> rearranging the UI should have been the default.
>
> You can make those buttons in the header pane disappear via
> user-chrome.css. You can also customize your main toolbar to show the
> reply, forward and delete buttons again. I know, because I did just that.
*I* know how to make those changes because computers are my hobby (IOW
I'm a computer geek). None of my users (wife, children, parents, sister)
and I suspect most "normal" users know how to fix the now worsened UI.
In addition to all the other reasons against moving the buttons into the
Header Pane, it is also breaking an important rule: don't mix UI with
content. The header pane is content. Buttons are UI. Oh, and the buttons
in the header pane are now smaller than they were when they were in the
Mail Toolbar, thus penalizing those users who have poorer eye sight or
poorer hand-mouse coordination.
PS. There are much more important bugs that would deserve the devs'
valuable time...
Simon Paquet
> Please read the above carefully (developers).
> For me: I can use pine, outlook or whatever; but I've got 60k
> users and currently have to repack Thunderbird to a msi (which is
> foolish, if a msi-version had been available I could have used a
> transform and saved a couple of days of testing for each release).
> We can not yet use TB3 and if support for TB2 has to be stopped
> (by us, because of security, or EOL) Thunderbird is gone and will
> not come back (changing default e-mail client is not done often.
> Last time was Eudora -> TB in 2004)
My recommendation to you and to Timo would be to clearly identify and
describe the issues (and possible solutions) that are keeping you from
upgrading your users.
| Example:
| ========
| Issue:
| The new default setting "Smart folders" for folder display is
| confusing for many long time users.
|
| Solution:
| Add a hidden pref, so that administrators can configure a different
| folder display mode.
| 2nd best solution: Make it more obvious for the user that the folder
| display mode can be easily toggled.
That would be a constructive way to improve the product. It all comes
down to this, that TB3 is here to stay. Security releases for the TB2
line will very likely end within the next 3-6 months and I seriously
doubt that Mozilla Messaging will spend its scarce resources on
prolonging TB2 support instead of developing TB 3.1 and its successors.
For the record: This is my personal opinion. I don't work for Mozilla
Messaging and I'm not a release driver.
Cya
Simon
--
Thunderbird/Calendar Localisation (L10n) Coordinator
Thunderbird l10n blog: http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com
Calendar website maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
Calendar developer blog: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar