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A first preview for the new SeaMonkey theme

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Manuel Reimer

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Jul 11, 2006, 6:01:44 PM7/11/06
to
Hello,

I want to show my current progress in making new icons for the SeaMonkey
default theme with this screenshot:

http://prefbar.mozdev.org/seamonkey_screenshot1.png

I took many ideas from "Really Modern" made by thumper (I think his
homepage is http://thumper.kicks-ass.org/ but currently it seems to be
unavailable).

All icons were recreated using vector graphics in hope to make it easier
to create different icon sizes in future.

It would be great if you could just tell what you think about the icons,
what you like and what you don't like.

One thing I'm unsure about: The new "stop"-icon (the X) looks like the
"Delete"-Icon used by Firefox and Thunderbird. Maybe we should get back
to "round icons" for this one and keep the new stop icon for delete,
which may be probably needed in future?

Another solution may be a new icon for "delete" (a rubber, for example),
but maybe this confuses users coming from FF and TB.

As soon as I did some changes based on the comments, I'll publish new
screenshots.

CU

Manuel

Justin Wood (Callek)

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Jul 12, 2006, 4:40:56 AM7/12/06
to
Manuel Reimer wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I want to show my current progress in making new icons for the SeaMonkey
> default theme with this screenshot:
>
> http://prefbar.mozdev.org/seamonkey_screenshot1.png
>
> I took many ideas from "Really Modern" made by thumper (I think his
> homepage is http://thumper.kicks-ass.org/ but currently it seems to be
> unavailable).
>
> All icons were recreated using vector graphics in hope to make it easier
> to create different icon sizes in future.
>
> It would be great if you could just tell what you think about the icons,
> what you like and what you don't like.

I personally am not "too" fond of those back/forward buttons, a bit too
rounded for me, but I can easily live with them; I am by _no_ means a
graphic artist.

> One thing I'm unsure about: The new "stop"-icon (the X) looks like the
> "Delete"-Icon used by Firefox and Thunderbird. Maybe we should get back
> to "round icons" for this one and keep the new stop icon for delete,
> which may be probably needed in future?

That was one of the few things which caught my eye in terms of "ick".
Only due to the confusing aspect of simply an 'x', we could use a
hexagon outline, like FF's default theme to imply a stop-sign to most
users, or we could use a rounded-like image here, I'm not too picky.

> Another solution may be a new icon for "delete" (a rubber, for example),
> but maybe this confuses users coming from FF and TB.

What would work well as a delete button would probably depend heavily on
where it is used and what for.

>
> As soon as I did some changes based on the comments, I'll publish new
> screenshots.

just my two cents,
~Justin Wood (Callek)

Manuel Reimer

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Jul 12, 2006, 6:34:38 AM7/12/06
to
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
> I personally am not "too" fond of those back/forward buttons, a bit too
> rounded for me, but I can easily live with them; I am by _no_ means a
> graphic artist.

It would be easy to reduce the roundings a bit, but let's wait for
further comments.

> That was one of the few things which caught my eye in terms of "ick".
> Only due to the confusing aspect of simply an 'x', we could use a
> hexagon outline, like FF's default theme to imply a stop-sign to most
> users, or we could use a rounded-like image here, I'm not too picky.

I already have a round one, but I think it may look bad together with
the other icons.

>> Another solution may be a new icon for "delete" (a rubber, for
>> example), but maybe this confuses users coming from FF and TB.

> What would work well as a delete button would probably depend heavily on
> where it is used and what for.

ACK. Thunderbird uses the icon for the button which deletes mails.

CU

Manuel

Ricardo Palomares Martinez

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Jul 12, 2006, 6:32:03 AM7/12/06
to
Manuel Reimer escribió:

> Hello,
>
> I want to show my current progress in making new icons for the SeaMonkey
> default theme with this screenshot:
>
> http://prefbar.mozdev.org/seamonkey_screenshot1.png
>
> It would be great if you could just tell what you think about the icons,
> what you like and what you don't like.
>


I'd say that the diskette icon is a bit too square when compared with
the rest.


> One thing I'm unsure about: The new "stop"-icon (the X) looks like the
> "Delete"-Icon used by Firefox and Thunderbird. Maybe we should get back
> to "round icons" for this one and keep the new stop icon for delete,
> which may be probably needed in future?


I'm with Justin in this, enclosing it inside an hexagon or a circle
would remove ambiguity. Anyway, the STOP sign is nearly a universal one.


>
> Another solution may be a new icon for "delete" (a rubber, for example),
> but maybe this confuses users coming from FF and TB.
>


<joke>
Well, they surely are not so smart as SM users (otherwise, they would
be using SM for a start), but I don't think they can be thought of as
so dumb! :-)
</joke>

Ricardo.

--
If it's true that we are here to help others,
then what exactly are the OTHERS here for?

Neil

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Jul 12, 2006, 7:48:09 AM7/12/06
to
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

> Manuel Reimer wrote:
>
>> One thing I'm unsure about: The new "stop"-icon (the X) looks like
>> the "Delete"-Icon used by Firefox and Thunderbird. Maybe we should
>> get back to "round icons" for this one and keep the new stop icon for
>> delete, which may be probably needed in future?
>
> That was one of the few things which caught my eye in terms of "ick".
> Only due to the confusing aspect of simply an 'x', we could use a
> hexagon outline, like FF's default theme to imply a stop-sign to most
> users, or we could use a rounded-like image here, I'm not too picky.

I think you'll find that STOP signs are octagonal, rather than hexagonal...

--
Warning: May contain traces of nuts.

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 12, 2006, 8:59:30 AM7/12/06
to
Manuel Reimer schrieb:

> One thing I'm unsure about: The new "stop"-icon (the X) looks like the
> "Delete"-Icon used by Firefox and Thunderbird. Maybe we should get back
> to "round icons" for this one and keep the new stop icon for delete,
> which may be probably needed in future?

The "stop" icon should probably go more towards an actual "STOP" sign
(octagonal shape, red with white writing)

> Another solution may be a new icon for "delete" (a rubber, for example),
> but maybe this confuses users coming from FF and TB.

Using a different sign for "delete" should probably be more like a trash
can than a rubber - if needed at all.

Robert Kaiser

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 12, 2006, 9:03:11 AM7/12/06
to
Manuel Reimer schrieb:

> Hello,
>
> I want to show my current progress in making new icons for the SeaMonkey
> default theme with this screenshot:
>
> http://prefbar.mozdev.org/seamonkey_screenshot1.png

Two more notes: The mailnews "security" lock icon is hard to recognize
as a lock, and the Composer "preview" icon is hard to identify as we're
going away from the navigation wheel identifying a browser... maybe it
should use an eye metaphor to represent "view that page " a bit more...

Robert Kaiser

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 12, 2006, 9:11:27 AM7/12/06
to
[cross-posting this to .themes so we maybe get some additional input
from folks generally interested in themes]

Manuel Reimer schrieb:

Miles

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Jul 12, 2006, 4:11:29 PM7/12/06
to Robert Kaiser

The icons are quite nice. Just wish you could come up with a better
background color than the lifeless grey! For instance, what about the
light and darker blues such as in Sky Pilot? They are not garish (such
as bright yellows or orange) and at the same time the verbiage is very
clear 99 white on darker blue and black on light or blue-grey.

Miles

Bruno Escherl

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Jul 12, 2006, 4:59:03 PM7/12/06
to
Hi!

Compared to the current modern theme, the icons look too childish und
way too flat (I like the "3D"-ish style of the current icon set).

I always considered Seamonkey as the more mature brother of Firefox, but
with this cartoon icon set, Firefox looks more mature at first sight.

And I miss all the little details like the envelope in MailNews or the
letter in the MailNews compose window.

Manuel, I appreciate the work you're doing, but my taste apparently is
quite different from yours :)

Bruno

Bruno Escherl

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Jul 12, 2006, 4:59:13 PM7/12/06
to
Message has been deleted

Karsten Düsterloh

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Jul 12, 2006, 5:00:43 PM7/12/06
to
Miles aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:

> Just wish you could come up with a better background color

The point of Classic, especially on Windows and Mac, is its "native
theming", i.e. background or font colours etc. are taken from the
_system_ (where possible), not the theme!


Karsten
--
Feel free to correct my English. :)

Karsten Düsterloh

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Jul 12, 2006, 5:01:55 PM7/12/06
to
Manuel Reimer aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:

> One thing I'm unsure about: The new "stop"-icon (the X) looks like the
> "Delete"-Icon used by Firefox and Thunderbird. Maybe we should get back
> to "round icons" for this one and keep the new stop icon for delete,
> which may be probably needed in future?

The 'X' for 'Stop' is just weird.
How about a plain (red?) square, like most HiFi consumer devices do?

Message has been deleted

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 12, 2006, 8:21:42 PM7/12/06
to
Bruno Escherl schrieb:

> Compared to the current modern theme, the icons look too childish und
> way too flat (I like the "3D"-ish style of the current icon set).
>
> I always considered Seamonkey as the more mature brother of Firefox, but
> with this cartoon icon set, Firefox looks more mature at first sight.
>
> And I miss all the little details like the envelope in MailNews or the
> letter in the MailNews compose window.

They never were in Classic, and we are talking of new icons for the
Classic theme here, modern will stay as it was (btw, those icons are
almost the same as the current modern icons)

Robert Kaiser

Steve Wendt

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Jul 12, 2006, 8:27:11 PM7/12/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:

> modern will stay as it was

My vote is for GrayModern, the colors look much better to me.
http://mozilla-themes.schellen.net/

Serge GAUTHERIE

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Jul 12, 2006, 9:20:26 PM7/12/06
to
Bruno Escherl wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Compared to the current modern theme, the icons look too childish und
> way too flat (I like the "3D"-ish style of the current icon set).

My first impression is also of a certain "childishness":
maybe the shapes/edges are a little to round (like the anchor makes me
think of a smiling emoticon),
and other things like that.

> I always considered Seamonkey as the more mature brother of Firefox, but
> with this cartoon icon set, Firefox looks more mature at first sight.
>

> Manuel, I appreciate the work you're doing, but my taste apparently is
> quite different from yours :)

But remember that I use Classic ... in Text-only mode :->
(I've only used graphics mode in SM/FF/TB while testing.)

Chris Thomas

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Jul 12, 2006, 9:48:10 PM7/12/06
to
Manuel Reimer wrote:
> All icons were recreated using vector graphics in hope to make it easier
> to create different icon sizes in future.

Are the originals available somewhere?

Chris

Justin Wood (Callek)

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Jul 13, 2006, 12:41:20 AM7/13/06
to
Neil wrote:
>
> I think you'll find that STOP signs are octagonal, rather than hexagonal...
>

Heh, yes... a slip of the tounge.

~Justin Wood (Callek)

Manuel Reimer

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Jul 13, 2006, 3:37:31 AM7/13/06
to
Chris Thomas wrote:
> Are the originals available somewhere?

No, currently not.

CU

Manuel

--
Privatsphäre bald Geschichte? Einschränkung der Rechte durch DRM?
Informieren, bevor es zu spät ist! Es sind auch deine Rechte!
www.stoppt-die-vorratsdatenspeicherung.de www.stop1984.com
www.againsttcpa.com www.privatkopie.net www.foebud.org

Bruno Escherl

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Jul 13, 2006, 3:50:29 AM7/13/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> They never were in Classic, and we are talking of new icons for the
> Classic theme here, modern will stay as it was (btw, those icons are
> almost the same as the current modern icons)
I misunderstood that, thought it should replace modern, my fault.

They may resemble the current modern icon set, but the modern icons look
more stylish with unobtrusiv colors.

Bruno

Manuel Reimer

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Jul 13, 2006, 3:52:04 AM7/13/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> The "stop" icon should probably go more towards an actual "STOP" sign
> (octagonal shape, red with white writing)

I think so, too.

Manuel Reimer

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Jul 13, 2006, 3:56:38 AM7/13/06
to
Bruno Escherl wrote:
> They may resemble the current modern icon set, but the modern icons look
> more stylish with unobtrusiv colors.

I think it would be much more work to resemble the classic theme. The
icons are just some pixels. As soon as you zoom a bit you not longer see
the edges.

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 13, 2006, 6:45:08 AM7/13/06
to
Serge GAUTHERIE schrieb:

> But remember that I use Classic ... in Text-only mode :->
> (I've only used graphics mode in SM/FF/TB while testing.)

Looks like everyone really complaining here doesn't use Classic anyways ;-)

Robert Kaiser

PK

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Jul 13, 2006, 12:53:52 PM7/13/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> They never were in Classic, and we are talking of new icons for the
> Classic theme here, modern will stay as it was (btw, those icons are
> almost the same as the current modern icons)

This new theme will replace Classic? Now, I think Manuel did a great
job with the icons, and I think this will make a nice default theme, but
I was under the assumption that this would either replace Modern or be
available as a third theme alongside Modern and Classic. Personally, I
think that it would be somewhat redundant if the two themes installed by
default have very similar icon sets.

Two of the main reasons why I currently use Classic are its familiar,
professional-looking icons and its ability to take up minimal space in
"Pictures only" mode. Unfortunately, these are two areas in which the
Modern icon set are somewhat weak. Many of its icons are somewhat
abstract and are not as recognizable as Classic's at a glance, and
Modern in "Pictures only" mode takes up quite a bit more room than
Classic does. This could be improved by making the icons smaller, but
due to the higher level of detail, the icons may become more difficult
to decipher.

I do agree that Classic is dated and could definitely use a new set of
icons, but I was hoping for something more along the lines of New
Classic/Classique (see
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150535 for more
information). Although that theme was never completed, its icons had a
familiar feel and similar size to Classic while still providing a
much-needed revision. In my opinion, the ideal solution would be to
have Manuel's new theme replace Modern (and be set to default) and a
separate Classic-based theme eventually replace Classic.

Message has been deleted

Serge GAUTHERIE

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Jul 13, 2006, 8:33:22 PM7/13/06
to
Peter Weilbacher wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 16:53:52 UTC, PK wrote:
>
>> I do agree that Classic is dated and could definitely use a new set of
>> icons, but I was hoping for something more along the lines of New
>> Classic/Classique (see
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150535 for more
>> information). Although that theme was never completed, its icons had a
>> familiar feel and similar size to Classic while still providing a
>> much-needed revision.
>

> You are right, those revisions while subtle work really well!

(I concur.)

Adam Hauner

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Jul 14, 2006, 3:34:38 AM7/14/06
to
PK wrote:

> much-needed revision. In my opinion, the ideal solution would be to
> have Manuel's new theme replace Modern (and be set to default) and a
> separate Classic-based theme eventually replace Classic.

Actual Modern theme is much more polished and superior than Manuel's new
theme.

Best regards,
--
Adam Hauner
Projekt CZilla
http://www.czilla.cz/ - http://start.czilla.cz/
http://firefox.czilla.cz/ - http://thunderbird.czilla.cz/

Ricardo Palomares Martinez

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Jul 14, 2006, 6:58:28 AM7/14/06
to
Serge GAUTHERIE escribió:


I have to agree; while I also like Manuel's icons, it's true that
those icons are in some cases too similar to Modern ones, so using
them to replace Classic theme would end with two too similar themes.


--
If it's true that we are here to help others,
then what exactly are the OTHERS here for?

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 14, 2006, 7:54:21 AM7/14/06
to
Ricardo Palomares Martinez schrieb:

> I have to agree; while I also like Manuel's icons, it's true that
> those icons are in some cases too similar to Modern ones, so using
> them to replace Classic theme would end with two too similar themes.

Our problem is that we have a very small team and maintaining two
completely different themes is hard for such a msall team in the long
run. What Manuel wants to achieve is to have a common set of SVGs that
the icons of both themes are derived from, so that it's easier to
maintain both at the same time.

The other possibility may be to find someone who'll own and maintain a
new default theme and probably drop Modern completely to save on
maintenance. Obviously, that's not what we (and Manuel) want to do though.

Robert Kaiser

Cédric Corazza

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Jul 14, 2006, 8:19:46 AM7/14/06
to
Manuel Reimer a écrit :

> It would be great if you could just tell what you think about the icons,
> what you like and what you don't like.
Hi,
Maybe pastel tones would render better, especially the blue, the green
and the brown; but well, it's only my taste.

Ricardo Palomares Martinez

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Jul 14, 2006, 8:22:54 AM7/14/06
to
Robert Kaiser escribió:

> Our problem is that we have a very small team and maintaining two
> completely different themes is hard for such a msall team in the long
> run. What Manuel wants to achieve is to have a common set of SVGs that
> the icons of both themes are derived from, so that it's easier to
> maintain both at the same time.


Oh, I didn't know that. In the long term, then, the main difference
between Classic and Modern theme would be the background color, as a
consequence of the fact that Classic integrates with system style
while Modern doesn't. Am I right?

If so, I'd dare to say that SeaMonkey users like me are used to the
luxury of having a product with two shipped themes, something that,
AFAIK, even Firefox doesn't do. I'd be very happy to try a renewed
Classic theme with either Manuel's work or a complete icon set in the
way of https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150535. Unless
something turns up to be really ugly, SeaMonkey could end shipping
just one that theme.

Actually, there is no need to drop Modern as long as it keeps working.
SeaMonkey Council could follow a course of action similar to what
Calendar Team has done with Calendar extension: they stopped the
maintenance for it, but they kept it to download (to use it, in the
theme case) as something working for Mozilla 1.7.x series. No
workload, but the feature is there for everyone willing to use it as
long as it works.

However, if such a decission was to be made, I strongly advocate for
renaming "Classic" to "New Classic", as it would be weird to remove
the modern theme and keep the classic one; it would sound like going
backwards. :-)

Ricardo

Simon Paquet

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Jul 14, 2006, 10:14:30 AM7/14/06
to
Ricardo Palomares Martinez wrote on 14. Jul 2006:

> Actually, there is no need to drop Modern as long as it keeps working.
> SeaMonkey Council could follow a course of action similar to what
> Calendar Team has done with Calendar extension: they stopped the
> maintenance for it, but they kept it to download (to use it, in the
> theme case) as something working for Mozilla 1.7.x series. No
> workload, but the feature is there for everyone willing to use it as
> long as it works.

This approach will still give you a certain workload, because there will
still be people filing bugs against this outdated code, which have to be
marked INVALID or WONTFIX. (if they are easily recognizable) or have to
be identified as being from outdated code (which is far more often the
case) and then marked INVALID or WONTFIX.

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Lightning/Calendar website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar

Serge GAUTHERIE

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Jul 14, 2006, 10:30:00 AM7/14/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Our problem is that we have a very small team and maintaining two
> completely different themes is hard for such a msall team in the long
> run. What Manuel wants to achieve is to have a common set of SVGs that
> the icons of both themes are derived from, so that it's easier to
> maintain both at the same time.

Oh, I did not know.
Actually, I somehow read a previous comment of yours as "wanting only a
(+/-) renewed Classic":
[


we are talking of new icons for the Classic theme here, modern will stay
as it was (btw, those icons are almost the same as the current modern icons)

]

Then, in a way, we'd be looking to "merge"/replace Classic and Modern !?

> The other possibility may be to find someone who'll own and maintain a
> new default theme and probably drop Modern completely to save on
> maintenance. Obviously, that's not what we (and Manuel) want to do though.

Well, even if I don't use graphics much myself,
I never liked the (all blue(s), all-round) Modern theme.


PS: Then, I'm not the one to do the work.

Philip Chee

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Jul 14, 2006, 12:42:09 PM7/14/06
to
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:54:21 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Our problem is that we have a very small team and maintaining two
> completely different themes is hard for such a msall team in the long
> run. What Manuel wants to achieve is to have a common set of SVGs that
> the icons of both themes are derived from, so that it's easier to
> maintain both at the same time.

Over in the SeaMonkey forums at Mozillazine there are several people
working on third party themes (check out orb colours classic). Perhaps
you could recruit/co-opt some of these people in to an official SM-Theme
team?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
[ ]Tagline theft is a compliment.
* TagZilla 0.059

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 14, 2006, 1:44:41 PM7/14/06
to
Ricardo Palomares Martinez schrieb:

> Oh, I didn't know that. In the long term, then, the main difference
> between Classic and Modern theme would be the background color, as a
> consequence of the fact that Classic integrates with system style
> while Modern doesn't. Am I right?

The difference is more, as all the widgets of Classic try to integrate
with the system, while Modern styles them in it own way - and even icon
coloring differs, but the icons will be derived from the same SVGs only
with minor differences like colors, from what I know.

> Actually, there is no need to drop Modern as long as it keeps working.

We will try to still fully maintain Modern, and even porting it over to
our new toolkit base and toolbar customization that will come on trunk.
For being able to do that, the idea is to have one common set of SVG
files to derive icons for both themes from.

> However, if such a decission was to be made, I strongly advocate for
> renaming "Classic" to "New Classic", as it would be weird to remove
> the modern theme and keep the classic one; it would sound like going
> backwards. :-)

I'm very much for looking into renaming it, but I'm more for calling it
"SeaMonkey default" instead of "Classic" after the changes, so it's
clear that it's something different.

Robert Kaiser

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 14, 2006, 1:49:46 PM7/14/06
to
Philip Chee schrieb:

> Over in the SeaMonkey forums at Mozillazine there are several people
> working on third party themes (check out orb colours classic). Perhaps
> you could recruit/co-opt some of these people in to an official SM-Theme
> team?

We hope to still have plenty of thrid-party themes after we've done the
change, and as we have noone dedicated to project management, managing a
sparate and bigger theme team would be very challenging, I don't think
I'd be up to that and I don't know whom to offload it to, as everyone
around is deeply covered in other work already...

We'd be very glad to have people helping us in the effort to renew and
improve the theme/look of SeaMonkey, and we especially would need
someone (or a group of people) to design really good new
component/window icons...

I don't have much time to read/post in mozine forums though, so we need
interested people to come over here or someone to act as a communication
link between here and there...

Robert Kaiser

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 14, 2006, 1:51:23 PM7/14/06
to
Serge GAUTHERIE schrieb:

> Then, in a way, we'd be looking to "merge"/replace Classic and Modern !?

No, Classic will be replaced (that is, the icons will be replaced and on
trunk the core of Classic theming will be replaced by *stripe thming)
and Modern will stay, but the icons of both will derive from a common
set of SVG files, only with slightly different colring, where needed.

Robert Kaiser

PK

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Jul 14, 2006, 3:44:39 PM7/14/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Our problem is that we have a very small team and maintaining two
> completely different themes is hard for such a msall team in the long
> run. What Manuel wants to achieve is to have a common set of SVGs that
> the icons of both themes are derived from, so that it's easier to
> maintain both at the same time.

I see your point, but how often do the icon sets themselves really need
to be maintained? The vast majority of theme changes that I've seen are
CSS-related and are not specific to any theme, so the same amount of
work would be required for those changes regardless of which icons the
themes use.

If the conversion to toolkit requires rewriting the themes from the
ground up, I can understand a little more, but wouldn't that just be a
one-time process? If so, you could ask volunteers (such as those from
MozillaZine as Phil suggested) to do the conversion, and after that, the
maintenance wouldn't require any more work than it does now.

> The other possibility may be to find someone who'll own and maintain a
> new default theme and probably drop Modern completely to save on
> maintenance. Obviously, that's not what we (and Manuel) want to do though.

It would require less maintenance on your part to keep Modern and to
have someone maintain a new default theme than it would to do what
you're planning to do with Classic and Modern, so why would you need to
drop Modern?

Thorsten Dorr

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Jul 14, 2006, 7:07:55 PM7/14/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Ricardo Palomares Martinez schrieb:

>
> The other possibility may be to find someone who'll own and maintain a
> new default theme and probably drop Modern completely to save on
> maintenance. Obviously, that's not what we (and Manuel) want to do though.

Please. Don't drop Modern. Let it stay at it is. I like it very much.
I have tried all available Sets for Mozilla nothing is so nice as the
original Modern theme.

Thank you.

Thorsten

GuruJ

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Jul 14, 2006, 11:15:50 PM7/14/06
to dev-apps-...@lists.mozilla.org

I agree wholeheartedly! Modern is one of the reasons I stuck with
Mozilla back in the 0.7 days (it really highlighted that Mozilla was
completely new) and I would hate to lose it.

-- Stephen.

Philip Chee

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Jul 15, 2006, 12:00:01 AM7/15/06
to
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:49:46 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> We hope to still have plenty of thrid-party themes after we've done the
> change, and as we have noone dedicated to project management, managing a
> sparate and bigger theme team would be very challenging, I don't think
> I'd be up to that and I don't know whom to offload it to, as everyone
> around is deeply covered in other work already...

> We'd be very glad to have people helping us in the effort to renew and
> improve the theme/look of SeaMonkey, and we especially would need
> someone (or a group of people) to design really good new
> component/window icons...

> I don't have much time to read/post in mozine forums though, so we need
> interested people to come over here or someone to act as a communication
> link between here and there...

I'm there. However:
a. I can't speak for the SeaMonkey Council.
b. (As all the females in my family say) I have the fashion sense of a
colour-blind earthworm.

CTho does hang out there though, perhaps the first order is to recruit
someone there with project management skills.

Phil

--
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.

[ ]Do televangelists do more than lay people?
* TagZilla 0.059

Chris Thomas

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Jul 15, 2006, 12:07:31 AM7/15/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Ricardo Palomares Martinez schrieb:
>> I have to agree; while I also like Manuel's icons, it's true that
>> those icons are in some cases too similar to Modern ones, so using
>> them to replace Classic theme would end with two too similar themes.
>
> Our problem is that we have a very small team and maintaining two
> completely different themes is hard for such a msall team in the long
> run. What Manuel wants to achieve is to have a common set of SVGs that
> the icons of both themes are derived from, so that it's easier to
> maintain both at the same time.

As others have pointed out, I think having more-unified CSS would be a
bigger deal. It's not very often that we add new icons.

Chris

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 15, 2006, 9:07:32 AM7/15/06
to
Chris Thomas schrieb:

> As others have pointed out, I think having more-unified CSS would be a
> bigger deal. It's not very often that we add new icons.

True, but if we want to add full toolbar customization after the change
to the new toolkit, we need most icons in multiple sizes, which is very
hard to do from the static bitmap images we have now - of course, esp.
for the Classic icons. That's why MReimer is basing all the new image on
SVGs, which are easy to resize to get the differently sized images we
need. And that fitted well with us needing a refreshed icon set for the
default theme anyways, as the current Classic icon set just feels like
we all would still use 16 color EGA displays.

Robert Kaiser

Chris Thomas

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Jul 15, 2006, 10:16:06 AM7/15/06
to

Ah, that hadn't occurred to me.

Chris

Neil

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Jul 15, 2006, 6:33:04 PM7/15/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:

> the current Classic icon set just feels like we all would still use 16
> color EGA displays.

Actually it's a 256-colour palette which works just fine on non-cairo
builds running in Windows 2000 Terminal Server (cairo builds don't like
256-colour modes and dither to the stock palette).

Still, anyone who likes the old icons could just wait for me to find
time to update my Retro theme ;-)

--
Warning: May contain traces of nuts.

Manuel Reimer

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Jul 17, 2006, 2:01:24 AM7/17/06
to
GuruJ wrote:
>> Please. Don't drop Modern. Let it stay at it is. I like it very much.
>> I have tried all available Sets for Mozilla nothing is so nice as the
>> original Modern theme.

> I agree wholeheartedly! Modern is one of the reasons I stuck with
> Mozilla back in the 0.7 days (it really highlighted that Mozilla was
> completely new) and I would hate to lose it.

Noone wants to remove modern. We just plan to use the icons of modern,
rework it as vector graphics and create a new "classic" and a new
"modern" based on the new icons.

The SVG-work is already done. Now I plan to rework all the icons to fit
to the needs of the users. Then new themes based on the new icons will
be added to SeaMonkey.

CU

Manuel

Adrian (Adrianer) Kalla

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Jul 17, 2006, 5:08:08 AM7/17/06
to
On 7/15/2006 1:07 AM, Thorsten Dorr wrote:
> Please. Don't drop Modern. Let it stay at it is. I like it very much.
> I have tried all available Sets for Mozilla nothing is so nice as the
> original Modern theme.

I think, that GrayModern looks much more modern than the (Blue-)Modern.
If the theme will be reworked, couldn't be the color changed to gray?


Adrian

Peter Weilbacher

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Jul 17, 2006, 6:56:22 AM7/17/06
to
I think you could get some nice ideas from the Eurynome and Nereid
themes at <http://www.incognu.com/occ.html> and
<http://www.incognu.com/nereid.html>. While I don't like at all what
they do to my scrollbars the icons are extremely well thought out both
in color and content and all of them have a very consistent look.

Additionally, these themes bring with them nice icons for the SeaMonkey
components. They could use a little bit of color to make them more easy
to separate visually but then they could well be used as replacements
for the old Mozilla-like component icons.

Peter.

PK

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Jul 17, 2006, 2:05:28 PM7/17/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> True, but if we want to add full toolbar customization after the change
> to the new toolkit, we need most icons in multiple sizes, which is very
> hard to do from the static bitmap images we have now - of course, esp.
> for the Classic icons. That's why MReimer is basing all the new image on
> SVGs, which are easy to resize to get the differently sized images we
> need.

Good point, and I can see why you would need to replace the current
themes for SeaMonkey 1.5. But why is it necessary to change them for
1.1 (as you mentioned in
http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey/msg/123d5c78d8ea3c8e)?
That seems more like changing things just for the sake of changing
them rather than keeping the target audience in mind (see
http://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey:Project_Goals). Judging by the number
of votes on some of the feature requests in the tracking bug
(https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=sm1.1), I think there are
many other things that could be added to 1.1 that would appeal to users
more than an unnecessary theme change (which would probably drive away
many existing users).

> And that fitted well with us needing a refreshed icon set for the
> default theme anyways, as the current Classic icon set just feels like
> we all would still use 16 color EGA displays.

If you're looking to refresh the icon set, I don't think Modern is the
right place to look. Most of its icons are over 5 years old, and people
probably still associate them with the not-so-popular Netscape 6 and 7
(I've dealt with that problem when trying to promote SeaMonkey). It
makes a good theme to include by default, but I don't think we need
another theme based on its icon set.

While I agree that Classic needs new icons, I think an entirely new,
professional-looking icon set with the same general shapes and color
schemes as Classic would appeal to many more users than the current
plan. Current users of Classic would appreciate the fact that the new
theme would be reminiscent of the old one, while potential new users may
be willing to give SeaMonkey a chance if it has a theme that they
haven't already seen.

I just don't like the idea of completely removing Classic without a
suitable replacement, since that alienates everyone who uses Classic by
disregarding the reasons why they use it in the first place. As a
product based on the Mozilla platform, doesn't SeaMonkey also aim to
promote choice and innovation?

Robert Kaiser

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Jul 17, 2006, 2:32:31 PM7/17/06
to
PK schrieb:

> Good point, and I can see why you would need to replace the current
> themes for SeaMonkey 1.5. But why is it necessary to change them for
> 1.1 ([...])?

It's not necessary. But when we have a better-looking, more modern
theme, it might make sense to also use it there.

And to repeat this once again, working on that icon set does NOT block
any work on any other parts of SeaMonkey and not working on it in the
1.1 timeframe wouldn't make room for anything else, as it's different
people needing to work on the other things than Manuel, who is solely
working on theming - also due to his skills.

Actually, some developers reading repeatedly the same here and writing
the same things all over again here takes away more valuable time from
other tasks than Manuel's theming work ;-)

> While I agree that Classic needs new icons, I think an entirely new,
> professional-looking icon set with the same general shapes and color
> schemes as Classic would appeal to many more users than the current
> plan.

If you give us a complete icon theme licensed under the MPL/GPL/LGPL
tri-license along with a complete patch to integrate it and someone who
promises to maintain it actively for the next few years, then we'll
think about it.
This all is as much a prerequisite as having the idea.

> As a
> product based on the Mozilla platform, doesn't SeaMonkey also aim to
> promote choice and innovation?

We do, that's why we support user-installable third-party themes.

Robert Kaiser

PK

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Jul 17, 2006, 3:45:03 PM7/17/06
to
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> It's not necessary. But when we have a better-looking, more modern
> theme, it might make sense to also use it there.

True, 5-year-old icons do beat 9-year-old icons as far as age goes. :-P
But which one looks better is a matter of opinion. Modern does have
more contemporary-looking icons, but they also happen to look less
professional, which appeals less to corporate users. Additionally, they
are quite a bit larger, which appeals less to people who prefer minimal
themes (short of using text only). The current two themes appeal to two
separate user bases, and this plan to remove Classic leaves one of them
in the dust.

> And to repeat this once again, working on that icon set does NOT block
> any work on any other parts of SeaMonkey and not working on it in the
> 1.1 timeframe wouldn't make room for anything else, as it's different
> people needing to work on the other things than Manuel, who is solely
> working on theming - also due to his skills.
>
> Actually, some developers reading repeatedly the same here and writing
> the same things all over again here takes away more valuable time from
> other tasks than Manuel's theming work ;-)

That may be what the other thread is about, but that's not what I was
trying to say (and I apologize if it sounded that way). I meant that if
you're looking to make SM 1.1 more attractive to users, there are other
ways to do that (e.g., RSS reader, undo tabs, inline bookmark editing,
etc.). But is a theme change something that people actually want?
Where is the bug in which people are asking for a new default theme, and
how many votes does it have?

> If you give us a complete icon theme licensed under the MPL/GPL/LGPL
> tri-license along with a complete patch to integrate it and someone who
> promises to maintain it actively for the next few years, then we'll
> think about it.
> This all is as much a prerequisite as having the idea.

I could do the CSS work and probably find someone to do the icons, but
it's not worth the effort if there's no chance of it being included in
SeaMonkey. I guess I was just thinking that something as important as a
new default theme would have been handled similar to how the SeaMonkey
logo was handled rather than some decision made quietly behind the scenes.

Justin Wood (Callek)

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Jul 17, 2006, 4:15:31 PM7/17/06