SeaMonkey website work
Robert Kaiser
I've been heavily working on SeaMonkey websites in the last week and
I've arrived at a point where I need your feedback and input.
First, I've worked on a new default start page for SeaMonkey, which
should be shorter and more friendly and contain the most important links
a user might need.
I'm pretty satisfied with the intro box (or actually boxes, as users of
stable versions, unstable versions and outdated [un]stable versions get
different intro boxes), but the main content needs more work. Do you
have any ideas how we can improve that?
I think though that even the current test version is better than the
current start page (which has been copied to a "get involved" page, BTW).
You can view that preview here:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/start/index-test.html
But I was talking of "sites" above - and rightfully so.
Most of my time in the last few days ran into creating a completely new
SeaMonkey site which should go up at www.seamonkey-project.org in the
future. This builds on a similar backend system as www.m.o (actually the
one mozilla.com used before going PHP-based) and the files are checked
into the mozilla.org www CVS repository, it will also be hosted by Mozilla.
The design is where I want it to be now, I copied the content of the
current SeaMonkey site and added or slightly modified some of it, the
content still heavily needs work.
Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework which
I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old site and
doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser windows) - and
it would be nice to propose the build the user most likely needs instead
of having 4 links there. As I said, I haven't finished my work on that yet.
I'd like your feedback on the design, on how the content is structured
and your input for improving the content where it clearly needs work
(doc and dev sections come to my mind).
The preview is currently on a test server (thanks Reed!), I have filed
bug 393638 on getting it up on a production system.
Until then, you can view it on
http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/
Please post your feedback and input here and help completing that work
so that we can improve our users' web experience not only on the browser
side but also on our project's web pages.
Greetings,
Robert Kaiser
Paul Bergsagel
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've been heavily working on SeaMonkey websites in the last week and
> I've arrived at a point where I need your feedback and input.
>
> First, I've worked on a new default start page for SeaMonkey, which
> should be shorter and more friendly and contain the most important links
> a user might need.
This page is a very good beginning, thanks for all your work Robert. I
am happy to see the de-emphasizing the "Get involved" message. That was
not a appropriate message to present to newbies.
> I'm pretty satisfied with the intro box (or actually boxes, as users of
> stable versions, unstable versions and outdated [un]stable versions get
> different intro boxes), but the main content needs more work. Do you
> have any ideas how we can improve that?
Please try to keep the information as concise and compact as reasonably
possible. Too much information might be viewed as either overwhelming or
intimidating for the newbie.
I am wondering who the target audience of this page will be. I suspect
that the page is intended for more than one target audience, with the
primary focus being the newbie who has little or previous experience
with SeaMonkey. If this newbie group is a major target audience then I
would suggest working at making it easier for new users to find the
information they most need? I would suggest a highlighted link for newbies:
**"Get started using SeaMonkey"--Link to a tutorial teaching the new
user how to use the basic features of SeaMonkey.
**Link to Support->Need help using SeaMonkey then click here.--this
would take the user to a support page where the user can locate support
links such as "Frequently asked questions", links to User Forums", email
support (if available), etc.
Make it easy for the newbie to find the info they need. If a newbie
needs assistance or help to get started using SeaMonkey and is unable to
find this help they might give up using SeaMonkey. If the newbie cannot
easily and quickly find the support documents showing how a user imports
bookmarks or email can we blame them if they quickly give up on
SeaMonkey. Not every new user can figure out how to use the features of
SeaMonkey, or any new program without a tutorial to guide them and a
forum to ask questions.
I believe this page could and should contain important info assisting
newbies to quickly locate the information they need to begin using
SeaMonkey. As stated above the page should be kept simple and concise
with links taking users to additional pages with more information. If
this page is to only be shown upon the first launch after installing
SeaMonkey, this page will not be very useful for new users. Could there
be some method found so that this page reappears upon subsequent
launches for the newbies, but does not reappear for long term SeaMonkey
users. I am thinking of a message link worded something like this "Do
not show this page upon a relaunch of SeaMonkey? (Not recommended for
new users.)" The default would be to display this page again if the user
fails to click on the link.
A good start Robert. I feel that more thought is requires regarding the
user who is new to SeaMonkey. Make this page work very well as you can
for the new user. Help them find the info they require and your job will
be well done.
Thanks for all the work you have done so far. A good beginning.
Tony Mechelynck
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've been heavily working on SeaMonkey websites in the last week and
> I've arrived at a point where I need your feedback and input.
>
> First, I've worked on a new default start page for SeaMonkey, which
> should be shorter and more friendly and contain the most important links
> a user might need.
> I'm pretty satisfied with the intro box (or actually boxes, as users of
> stable versions, unstable versions and outdated [un]stable versions get
> different intro boxes), but the main content needs more work. Do you
> have any ideas how we can improve that?
> I think though that even the current test version is better than the
> current start page (which has been copied to a "get involved" page, BTW).
> You can view that preview here:
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/start/index-test.html
Nice preview. Of course the "site" isn't let fully built (the "community" link
is broken, for example) but I expect it'll get fleshed up in time.
>
> But I was talking of "sites" above - and rightfully so.
> Most of my time in the last few days ran into creating a completely new
> SeaMonkey site which should go up at www.seamonkey-project.org in the
> future. This builds on a similar backend system as www.m.o (actually the
> one mozilla.com used before going PHP-based) and the files are checked
> into the mozilla.org www CVS repository, it will also be hosted by Mozilla.
> The design is where I want it to be now, I copied the content of the
> current SeaMonkey site and added or slightly modified some of it, the
> content still heavily needs work.
> Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework which
> I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old site and
> doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser windows) - and
> it would be nice to propose the build the user most likely needs instead
> of having 4 links there. As I said, I haven't finished my work on that yet.
yes indeed, OS-sniffing, and possibly language-sniffing, similar to what is
done between getfirefox.com and whatever it redirects to, would be a nice touch.
> I'd like your feedback on the design, on how the content is structured
> and your input for improving the content where it clearly needs work
> (doc and dev sections come to my mind).
> The preview is currently on a test server (thanks Reed!), I have filed
> bug 393638 on getting it up on a production system.
> Until then, you can view it on
> http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/
nice look and feel, with a "Mozilla-like" general look and a "SeaMonkey"
header and favicon. The ./doc/ page is better than its shortness might make
some believe: I'd have loved to find exactly those links (or the equivalent)
from day one, when I was comparing NS6/7 with Fx1.0PR1. Maybe a somewhat more
"verbose" explanation (aimed at the total newbie) of what each link is for.
>
> Please post your feedback and input here and help completing that work
> so that we can improve our users' web experience not only on the browser
> side but also on our project's web pages.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
Best regards,
Tony.
--
The 80's -- when you can't tell hairstyles from chemotherapy.
Tony Mechelynck
...and when (slowly) graduating from newbie to something less "green", it's
not always obvious (or wasn't) how to get at the info which is there. For that
reason I applaud the short "Documentation & Help" page. Just make sure it's
"easily understandable" to newbies without sacrificing info for more
experienced users: IMHO, a clear explanation which a newbie will understand as
"this link is not for you yet but you may want it one year from now" is not a
blemish as long as what the newbie does need is there too, easy to grasp, and
on top.
>
> I believe this page could and should contain important info assisting
> newbies to quickly locate the information they need to begin using
> SeaMonkey. As stated above the page should be kept simple and concise
> with links taking users to additional pages with more information. If
> this page is to only be shown upon the first launch after installing
> SeaMonkey, this page will not be very useful for new users. Could there
> be some method found so that this page reappears upon subsequent
> launches for the newbies, but does not reappear for long term SeaMonkey
> users. I am thinking of a message link worded something like this "Do
> not show this page upon a relaunch of SeaMonkey? (Not recommended for
> new users.)" The default would be to display this page again if the user
> fails to click on the link.
Maybe hardcode a link to this page in the browser's Help menu and/or its
about: page? Oh, I see the former is already foreseen: "Help => Release Notes"
(for my trunk build) links to a page with a prominent link to the "live" Sm
project page at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/ . About the
"about:" page: the "version" link (or clicking the logo) currently goes to
http://www.mozilla.org/ which doesn't "feel right" to me (that page mentions
Fx & Tb prominently but Sm is an easily overlooked link under "Other Mozilla
Software"). Is there already a bug report for that or should I file one?
>
> A good start Robert. I feel that more thought is requires regarding the
> user who is new to SeaMonkey. Make this page work very well as you can
> for the new user. Help them find the info they require and your job will
> be well done.
[...]
yeah, me too, see my post of a few minutes ago in this thread.
Best regards,
Tony.
--
Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
-- Wernher von Braun
Ricardo Palomares Martinez
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've been heavily working on SeaMonkey websites in the last week and
> I've arrived at a point where I need your feedback and input.
>
> First, I've worked on a new default start page for SeaMonkey, which
> should be shorter and more friendly and contain the most important links
> a user might need.
> I'm pretty satisfied with the intro box (or actually boxes, as users of
> stable versions, unstable versions and outdated [un]stable versions get
> different intro boxes), but the main content needs more work. Do you
> have any ideas how we can improve that?
I'm still at 1.1.3 (laziness to re-install all extensions, I guess),
so I've got a warning about upgrading. The text has a small mistake;
it says "...download the newer version linked in the download box at
the left...", whereas the box is actually at the *right*.
The same happens when you visit the page using a non-SeaMonkey browser
(BTW, nice message!). :-) The text says "...for free download from the
links shown on the left."
> But I was talking of "sites" above - and rightfully so.
> Most of my time in the last few days ran into creating a completely new
> SeaMonkey site which should go up at www.seamonkey-project.org in the
> future. This builds on a similar backend system as www.m.o (actually the
> one mozilla.com used before going PHP-based) and the files are checked
> into the mozilla.org www CVS repository, it will also be hosted by Mozilla.
> The design is where I want it to be now, I copied the content of the
> current SeaMonkey site and added or slightly modified some of it, the
> content still heavily needs work.
If it is going to be a CVS-based site, any chance to have it localized
so we can provide a unique point of information for all SM users?
> Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework which
> I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old site and
> doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser windows)
To me, the problem is not (just) the width, but the height of that
box. The "Project News" section appears right at the bottom of the
window, so you don't get actually any news in the window unless you
scroll down (Linux, 1024x768 using IceWM, which has a small taskbar;
on Ubuntu with Gnome, "Project News" heading isn't even visible
without scrolling down). Could it be made smaller in height (Features
and Release notes links, for instance, could be put right after the
description)?
> I'd like your feedback on the design,
Given that I'm heavily design-impaired, I wouldn't dare to criticize
any web design I see. :-) Anyway, I like what I see in both sites. The
only two things that could be changed IMHO are these:
- http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/community.html,
where the table with class="forumlist" could have all its cells with
vertical-align: top, so the newsgroup names are always placed at top
of the cell.
- the blue line under the SeaMonkey logo, name and waves on top of
every page is empty at home page, which causes it to be thinner than
in any other page, where the breadcrumb is displayed.
I agree that it is a very nice work.
Ricardo.
--
If it's true that we are here to help others,
then what exactly are the OTHERS here for?
Robert Kaiser
> For that reason I applaud the short "Documentation & Help" page.
Ugh, that page sucks because it doesn't tell the new user what it is all
about and it does _not_ give a lot of helpful pointers.
But this is about the new website, not the start page that Paul
commented on, which is an orthogonal issue.
The main problem, once again, is that someone needs to write up all that
help and documentation content, or else we can't link or present it.
Help (pun intended) would be appreciated.
> About the "about:" page: the "version" link (or clicking the logo)
> currently goes to http://www.mozilla.org/ which doesn't "feel right" to
> me (that page mentions Fx & Tb prominently but Sm is an easily
> overlooked link under "Other Mozilla Software"). Is there already a bug
> report for that or should I file one?
There is a bug report, which is basicaly even resolved, but the code
added to correct this can't work because the about: page does not have
permissions to use the urlformatter service which it needs for loading
the correct URL from the internal setting.
This is the same problem as the release notes link on that page not
being linked right now.
There's another open bug on that.
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/start/index-test.html
>
> Nice preview. Of course the "site" isn't let fully built (the
> "community" link is broken, for example) but I expect it'll get fleshed
> up in time.
Oh, yes, I need to go through those. I just copied the link blocks from
the home page and relative links need some love as it's in a subdir now.
>> Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework
>> which I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old
>> site and doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser
>> windows) - and it would be nice to propose the build the user most
>> likely needs instead of having 4 links there. As I said, I haven't
>> finished my work on that yet.
>
> yes indeed, OS-sniffing, and possibly language-sniffing, similar to what
> is done between getfirefox.com and whatever it redirects to, would be a
> nice touch.
Exactly. We'll do just OS sniffing on the client side in JS as long as
localized builds aren't available for all platforms and are contributed
builds. Once we have repackaged localized builds for all platforms done
on our official machines, we'll add language sniffing as well.
For people who deactivate JS, we'll fall back to the box as it is at the
moment, so that the experience is smooth.
> nice look and feel, with a "Mozilla-like" general look and a "SeaMonkey"
> header and favicon. The ./doc/ page is better than its shortness might
> make some believe: I'd have loved to find exactly those links (or the
> equivalent) from day one, when I was comparing NS6/7 with Fx1.0PR1.
> Maybe a somewhat more "verbose" explanation (aimed at the total newbie)
> of what each link is for.
Yes, the current links are a bit too few and unexplained, we need some
descriptive text around this - and we also badly need more up-to-date
content to link to.
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> should be shorter and more friendly and contain the most important
>> links a user might need.
>
> This page is a very good beginning, thanks for all your work Robert. I
> am happy to see the de-emphasizing the "Get involved" message. That was
> not a appropriate message to present to newbies.
Right. The page is shown for newbies, experienced users, testers and
developers and needs to fit all of them in some way.
The "get involved" page needs to be prominently linked for many of those
(with different explanations), but the start page itself should
concentrate on useful pointers - and on informing people when they are
running an old version, for example.
> Please try to keep the information as concise and compact as reasonably
> possible. Too much information might be viewed as either overwhelming or
> intimidating for the newbie.
Yes, still everything linked needs to be useful. Maybe the link blocks
are a good idea after all, though.
> I am wondering who the target audience of this page will be.
Everyone who launches SeaMonkey and doesn't have the default start page
reset to something else - which is a quite huge and diverse group of
people, actually.
> If this newbie group is a major target audience then I
> would suggest working at making it easier for new users to find the
> information they most need?
Many of the links you suggest would be nice ideas, but we don't have the
pages for that yet and would need someone to write up that content. Do
you volunteer for that? Anyone else?
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> Robert Kaiser escribió:
> I'm still at 1.1.3 (laziness to re-install all extensions, I guess),
> so I've got a warning about upgrading. The text has a small mistake;
> it says "...download the newer version linked in the download box at
> the left...", whereas the box is actually at the *right*.
>
> The same happens when you visit the page using a non-SeaMonkey browser
> (BTW, nice message!). :-) The text says "...for free download from the
> links shown on the left."
Oops. Remember to not ask me for directions :P
Both will be fixed with the next update.
> If it is going to be a CVS-based site, any chance to have it localized
> so we can provide a unique point of information for all SM users?
There are some small steps towards localizability in there, but it would
need much more work to get it there. This is something we should think
about once this runs, I don't see huge blockers for the I might have
introduced with what work I did on the pages and system, and the system
itself should support it (even though not as well as the PHP-based
system used for mozilla.com).
The first priority for me is to get a general site running in US
English, other languages can be thought about once this runs.
> To me, the problem is not (just) the width, but the height of that
> box. The "Project News" section appears right at the bottom of the
> window, so you don't get actually any news in the window unless you
> scroll down (Linux, 1024x768 using IceWM, which has a small taskbar;
> on Ubuntu with Gnome, "Project News" heading isn't even visible
> without scrolling down). Could it be made smaller in height (Features
> and Release notes links, for instance, could be put right after the
> description)?
The height will vastly change, esp. because I'm not sure the download
box is good on the right and the whole area is not yet what I feel is
how I want it to look. I feels a bit to old in design terms for the rest
of the site.
I don't think the project news section needs to be visible all the time
though, only the SeaMonkey project section is that important, everything
else is also linked from the navigation and/or can be seen with
scrolling (and the current version is always visible from the download box).
> Given that I'm heavily design-impaired, I wouldn't dare to criticize
> any web design I see. :-) Anyway, I like what I see in both sites. The
> only two things that could be changed IMHO are these:
>
> - http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/community.html,
> where the table with class="forumlist" could have all its cells with
> vertical-align: top, so the newsgroup names are always placed at top
> of the cell.
Hmm, thanks for the suggestion, need to look into that.
> - the blue line under the SeaMonkey logo, name and waves on top of
> every page is empty at home page, which causes it to be thinner than
> in any other page, where the breadcrumb is displayed.
Yes, that's intended. Is it a problem?
> I agree that it is a very nice work.
Thanks :)
Benoit Renard
> pages for that yet and would need someone to write up that content. Do
> you volunteer for that? Anyone else?
I wouldn't mind writing documentation. I'm a bit worried about
duplicating the Help file, though. Shouldn't users be pointed to it as well?
Michael Vincent van Rantwijk, MultiZilla
The help files are just plain ordinary HTML files right? Why not use
them for the website also?
--
Michael Vincent van Rantwijk
- MultiZilla Project Team Lead
- XUL Boot Camp Staff member (ActiveState Training Partner)
- iPhone Application Developer
Neil
> The help files are just plain ordinary HTML files right?
They're actually XHTML; I don't know if they'll parse as HTML.
--
Warning: May contain traces of nuts.
Ricardo Palomares Martinez
> Ricardo Palomares Martinez wrote:
>
>> - the blue line under the SeaMonkey logo, name and waves on top of
>> every page is empty at home page, which causes it to be thinner than
>> in any other page, where the breadcrumb is displayed.
>
> Yes, that's intended. Is it a problem?
>
A problem? Of course not. To me, it is just... weird. :-) I would
expect to display just "Home", but the change in height in just one
page feels strange to me.
The inline help content is actually a LOT of info that may be
overlooked by users. How difficult would be to put a working copy in
the web? As an extra, many localizations have translated it, so we
would get tons of localized material in the web for free. Of course,
I'm not suggesting to remove the inline help from the product, only
clone it in the website.
Robert Kaiser
> The inline help content is actually a LOT of info that may be
> overlooked by users. How difficult would be to put a working copy in
> the web? As an extra, many localizations have translated it, so we
> would get tons of localized material in the web for free. Of course,
> I'm not suggesting to remove the inline help from the product, only
> clone it in the website.
That may not be as easy as it sounds, as help ties in DTDs from other
parts of the application, but your idea is interesting...
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
I'm not sure if the same content as in internal help even would make
sense on the web.
Things like a FAQ or "where to start" documents might make sense though,
and could refer to the internal help in multiple places.
Is there some way we can open help from a web link?
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> Michael Vincent van Rantwijk, MultiZilla wrote:
>
>> The help files are just plain ordinary HTML files right?
>
> They're actually XHTML; I don't know if they'll parse as HTML.
The site is HTML 4.01 Strict which should be compatible with XHTML 1.0
in most areas - but the bigger problem is probably that we tie in
multiple DTDs from other parts of the app into help.
Robert Kaiser
Rolf
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've been heavily working on SeaMonkey websites in the last week and
> I've arrived at a point where I need your feedback and input.
>
I like what I see, well done!
> First, I've worked on a new default start page for SeaMonkey, which
> should be shorter and more friendly and contain the most important links
> a user might need.
> I'm pretty satisfied with the intro box (or actually boxes, as users of
> stable versions, unstable versions and outdated [un]stable versions get
> different intro boxes),
>
I like this too.
> but the main content needs more work. Do you
> have any ideas how we can improve that?
> I think though that even the current test version is better than the
> current start page (which has been copied to a "get involved" page, BTW).
> You can view that preview here:
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/start/index-test.html
>
¤ In addition to the descriptive warning about an old version, please
add the explicit version number the message addresses (i.e. the version
detected/sniffed). It's the first thing I want to know after receiving a
warning like that anyway.
¤ Maybe make the *Warning!* stand out some more if possible (in red?),
or give the entire text a red border or/and background like for the
green download box at the right (not left ;-)). [same height as for the
download box?] [warning sign, similar to the down(load) arrow?]
> But I was talking of "sites" above - and rightfully so.
> Most of my time in the last few days ran into creating a completely new
> SeaMonkey site which should go up at www.seamonkey-project.org in the
> future. This builds on a similar backend system as www.m.o (actually the
> one mozilla.com used before going PHP-based) and the files are checked
> into the mozilla.org www CVS repository, it will also be hosted by Mozilla.
> The design is where I want it to be now, I copied the content of the
> current SeaMonkey site and added or slightly modified some of it, the
> content still heavily needs work.
> Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework which
> I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old site and
> doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser windows)
>
Right!
Maybe just showing a thumb-sized screen shot, on smaller screens, that
is expanded to overlay all three columns on mouse over - or similar.
> - and
> it would be nice to propose the build the user most likely needs instead
> of having 4 links there. As I said, I haven't finished my work on that yet.
> I'd like your feedback on the design, on how the content is structured
> and your input for improving the content where it clearly needs work
> (doc and dev sections come to my mind).
> The preview is currently on a test server (thanks Reed!), I have filed
> bug 393638 on getting it up on a production system.
> Until then, you can view it on
> http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/
>
¤ Keep the "System Requirements" link (e.g. beneath "Release Notes").
The system requireents are one of the first things I look for when
considering to install a new software, and...
¤ Screen shots, via an easily found link (and through clicking the small
screen shot in the left, 2nd, column).
> Please post your feedback and input here and help completing that work
> so that we can improve our users' web experience not only on the browser
> side but also on our project's web pages.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
Greetings to You too,
// Rolf
--
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.8.0.12) Gecko/20070510
SeaMonkey/1.0.9 - Classic Theme - 266MHz Mobile Pentium II 288MB RAM
Neil
> Is there some way we can open help from a web link?
Not without allowing it to be abused by malicious websites. Well, they
could force help to open.
Neil
> ¤ In addition to the descriptive warning about an old version, please
> add the explicit version number the message addresses (i.e. the
> version detected/sniffed). It's the first thing I want to know after
> receiving a warning like that anyway.
Warning: you appear to be using the outdated SeaMonkey 1.0.9 release ;-)
Rolf
Neil wrote:
> Rolf wrote:
>
>> ¤ In addition to the descriptive warning about an old version, please
>> add the explicit version number the message addresses (i.e. the
>> version detected/sniffed). It's the first thing I want to know after
>> receiving a warning like that anyway.
>
> Warning: you appear to be using the outdated SeaMonkey 1.0.9 release ;-)
>
And that in addition to an outdated operating system :-) yet w/o any
problems! ;-)
Chris Ilias
Feel free to use the content at <http://seamonkey.ilias.ca>. I created
it, because there were SeaMonkey-specific help sites around for SM
users. It will need quite a bit of updating, when SM2 comes around.
Speaking of SM2, is there a target date for the new web site? If it's
close to the SM2 release, it might be better to create the site,
treating it as if SM2 were the latest release, then announce the new
site, when SM2 is released. Sorta like Firefox1.5 and mozilla.com.
--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
Robert Kaiser
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>
>> Is there some way we can open help from a web link?
>
> Not without allowing it to be abused by malicious websites. Well, they
> could force help to open.
OK, reasonable argument - and I thought it would be something like that.
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> Feel free to use the content at <http://seamonkey.ilias.ca>. I created
> it, because there were SeaMonkey-specific help sites around for SM
> users. It will need quite a bit of updating, when SM2 comes around.
Thanks for this offer, will look into that!
> Speaking of SM2, is there a target date for the new web site? If it's
> close to the SM2 release, it might be better to create the site,
> treating it as if SM2 were the latest release, then announce the new
> site, when SM2 is released. Sorta like Firefox1.5 and mozilla.com.
The plan is to have this available way before SeaMonkey 2 will be ready
(we don't even have an Alpha yet), as I don't want to maintain duplicate
content for a long time.
Robert Kaiser
Neil
> On 2007-08-27 21:58 CET, Neil wrote:
>
>> Rolf wrote:
>>
>>> ¤ In addition to the descriptive warning about an old version,
>>> please add the explicit version number the message addresses (i.e.
>>> the version detected/sniffed). It's the first thing I want to know
>>> after receiving a warning like that anyway.
>>
>> Warning: you appear to be using the outdated SeaMonkey 1.0.9 release ;-)
>
> And that in addition to an outdated operating system :-) yet w/o any
> problems! ;-)
We still support Windows NT3.51, so you're nowhere near outdated yet.
(SeaMonkey 2.0 will be a different story, of course.)
Robert Kaiser
True. We even support NT 3.51 and up as well as Win95 and up for
SeaMonkey 1.1.x - but SeaMonkey 1.0.9 has a few know critical security
issues and we don't recommend using it any longer (esp. as 1.1.x still
should run well on all systems where 1.0.x was working).
Robert Kaiser
Justin Wood (Callek)
Might it be possible to write a php or other script to manually replace
entities with their DTD counterparts from a jar/manifest listing of
SeaMonkey files (dtd's)?
To have a web-copy of current/release web-docs?
~Justin Wood (Callek)
Rolf
Robert Kaiser wrote:
I promise, I have no intention of downgrading my OS :-)
The reason I'm still running 1.0.9 is that I currently lack disk space
and time. Need to rearrange some stuff on some of my machines first.
Actually I look forward to upgrade to SM 1.1.x, which should take care
of converting my message labels into tags (or whatever they're called),
before I migrate most of my non-IMAP accounts over to my IMAP server.
Until this happens I promise to practice "safe surf" :-) Don't worry!
But, but, wasn't this thread about the new SeaMonkey web site!? ;-)
Michael Vincent van Rantwijk, MultiZilla
Which is exactly my point when I said (8/27/2007 7:07 PM): "The help
files are just plain ordinary HTML files right? Why not use them for
the website also?" just in case this wasn't clear.
Robert Kaiser
> If it is going to be a CVS-based site, any chance to have it localized
> so we can provide a unique point of information for all SM users?
I have reworked some bases of the page so that L10n should really be
easily possible now for most of the site - including L10n of only parts
of the pages. I don't want to go with multiple localizations right from
the start, but we need no big changes further down the road to enable it.
> - http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/community.html,
> where the table with class="forumlist" could have all its cells with
> vertical-align: top, so the newsgroup names are always placed at top
> of the cell.
Done.
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> ¤ In addition to the descriptive warning about an old version, please
> add the explicit version number the message addresses (i.e. the version
> detected/sniffed). It's the first thing I want to know after receiving a
> warning like that anyway.
>
> ¤ Maybe make the *Warning!* stand out some more if possible (in red?),
> or give the entire text a red border or/and background like for the
> green download box at the right (not left ;-)). [same height as for the
> download box?] [warning sign, similar to the down(load) arrow?]
Both done on the start page for the new website, I'll marge this back to
the other one as needed.
>> Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework
>> which I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old
>> site and doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser
>> windows)
>>
> Right!
>
> Maybe just showing a thumb-sized screen shot, on smaller screens, that
> is expanded to overlay all three columns on mouse over - or similar.
OK, the major rework has been done now, I hope this is better :)
> ¤ Keep the "System Requirements" link (e.g. beneath "Release Notes").
> The system requireents are one of the first things I look for when
> considering to install a new software, and...
>
> ¤ Screen shots, via an easily found link (and through clicking the small
> screen shot in the left, 2nd, column).
Still need to look into those - if we want to do a good screen shot
page, we need to create such shots first.
Of course, we could even do a preview section there that shows a bit how
SeaMonkey 2 will look :)
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/start/index-test.html
>
> Nice preview. Of course the "site" isn't let fully built (the
> "community" link is broken, for example) but I expect it'll get fleshed
> up in time.
Should be corrected now, here as well as on the new website.
>> Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework
>> which I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old
>> site and doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser
>> windows) - and it would be nice to propose the build the user most
>> likely needs instead of having 4 links there. As I said, I haven't
>> finished my work on that yet.
>
> yes indeed, OS-sniffing, and possibly language-sniffing, similar to what
> is done between getfirefox.com and whatever it redirects to, would be a
> nice touch.
Have done that now - language sniffing is in but not used yet, as I want
to have all languages available for all platforms and in bouncer for
that, and we probably need to wait for SeaMonkey 2 with that.
Still, the code is there, so we should be fit for the future.
Robert Kaiser
Tony Mechelynck
Hm. In both Fx2 and Sm2, once the page is loaded I see all 4 options, or none,
in the "Download" block:
(a) all four
with the following UA strings:
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.7pre) Gecko/20070831
BonEcho/2.0.0.7pre
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.7pre) Gecko/20070831
BonEcho/2.0.0.7pre Firefox/2.0.0.7pre
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9a8pre) Gecko/2007083101
Firefox/3.0a8pre SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre
Download Now
SeaMonkey 1.1.4
* Windows, English (13MB)
* Linux GTK2, English (14MB)
* Mac OS X, English (23MB)
* Other Systems & Languages
(b) none at all (and different text: Congratulations! etc) with
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9a8pre) Gecko/2007083101
SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre
(The Firefox/something added text is required for proper functioning on the
Gmail settings page, and I don't expect whoever owns that site these days to
listen if I mention geckoisgecko to them.)
I would have expected a prominent link "SeaMonkey 1.1.4 (Linux, GTK2,
English)" with "Other Systems and Languages" in small type and Win & Mac not
even mentioned on the page.
Did I misunderstand or is the OS-sniffing not working?
Best regards,
Tony.
--
SOLDIER: Where did you get the coconuts?
ARTHUR: Through ... We found them.
SOLDIER: Found them? In Mercea. The coconut's tropical!
"Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD
Robert Kaiser
> Did I misunderstand or is the OS-sniffing not working?
You did misunderstand. You tested the preview for the default start
page, but where I did rework the download box is the new SeaMonkey
website, for preview at http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>>> - http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/community.html,
>>> where the table with class="forumlist" could have all its cells with
>>> vertical-align: top, so the newsgroup names are always placed at top
>>> of the cell.
>>
>> Done.
>
> vertical-align:top or is there a blank line due to the <ul> which cannot
> be removed? (maybe style table.forumlist td ul { margin-top: 0 } or
> something?)
Yes, that's the <ul> - I fear we get too little spacing between the
cells when I remove that, I'll look into that further, this was just a
quick fix ;-)
Robert Kaiser
Chris Ilias
> Most of my time in the last few days ran into creating a completely new
> SeaMonkey site which should go up at www.seamonkey-project.org in the
> future. This builds on a similar backend system as www.m.o (actually the
> one mozilla.com used before going PHP-based) and the files are checked
> into the mozilla.org www CVS repository, it will also be hosted by Mozilla.
> The design is where I want it to be now, I copied the content of the
> current SeaMonkey site and added or slightly modified some of it, the
> content still heavily needs work.
> I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old site and
> doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser windows) - and
> it would be nice to propose the build the user most likely needs instead
> of having 4 links there. As I said, I haven't finished my work on that yet.
> and your input for improving the content where it clearly needs work
> (doc and dev sections come to my mind).
> The preview is currently on a test server (thanks Reed!), I have filed
> bug 393638 on getting it up on a production system.
> Until then, you can view it on
> http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/
Will seamonkey-project.org have doctor?
Robert Kaiser
> On 8/26/07 5:39 PM, _Robert Kaiser_ spoke thusly:
>> http://seamonkeyproject-org.landfill.bugzilla.org/
>
> Will seamonkey-project.org have doctor?
Yes. It's broken atm, but I'm told this is an easy fix.
Robert Kaiser
Tony Mechelynck
Ah, yes, OK, there it's working. <thumbsup/>
Best regards,
Tony.
--
Don: I didn't know you had a cousin Penelope, Bill! Was she
pretty?
W. C.: Well, her face was so wrinkled it looked like seven miles of
bad road. She had so many gold teeth, Don, she used to have to
sleep with her head in a safe. She died in Bolivia.
Don: Oh Bill, it must be hard to lose a relative.
W. C.: It's almost impossible.
-- W. C. Fields, from "The Further Adventures of Larson
E. Whipsnade and other Tarradiddles"
Rolf
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Rolf wrote:
>> ¤ In addition to the descriptive warning about an old version, please
>> add the explicit version number the message addresses (i.e. the
>> version detected/sniffed). It's the first thing I want to know after
>> receiving a warning like that anyway.
>>
>> ¤ Maybe make the *Warning!* stand out some more if possible (in red?),
>> or give the entire text a red border or/and background like for the
>> green download box at the right (not left ;-)). [same height as for
>> the download box?] [warning sign, similar to the down(load) arrow?]
>
> Both done on the start page for the new website, I'll marge this back to
> the other one as needed.
>
Robert, pleased to find You liked these my ideas.
Am I supposed to be able to see them implemented on this start page now?
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/start/index-test.html
Welcome to SeaMonkey
If so, I'm sorry to have to inform You that Your implementations don't
seem to visualize. At least not when I visit the link above with my now
"outdated" SM (see signature).
>>> Note that the leading box on the main page also needs some rework
>>> which I have not done yet, it currently is just a copy from the old
>>> site and doesn't fit well on smaller screens (or narrower browser
>>> windows)
>>>
>> Right!
>>
>> Maybe just showing a thumb-sized screen shot, on smaller screens, that
>> is expanded to overlay all three columns on mouse over - or similar.
>
> OK, the major rework has been done now, I hope this is better :)
>
>> ¤ Keep the "System Requirements" link (e.g. beneath "Release Notes").
>> The system requireents are one of the first things I look for when
>> considering to install a new software, and...
>>
Do You have any comments about the "legacy" "System Requirements" link?
Will it be reimplemented, or have there been made other decisions
regarding this.
>> ¤ Screen shots, via an easily found link (and through clicking the
>> small screen shot in the left, 2nd, column).
>
> Still need to look into those - if we want to do a good screen shot
> page, we need to create such shots first.
> Of course, we could even do a preview section there that shows a bit how
> SeaMonkey 2 will look :)
>
Well, why not - if there is time for that?
Thanks & Regards
Robert Kaiser
> Am I supposed to be able to see them implemented on this start page now?
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/start/index-test.html
No, didn't come around to port it to that yet, but it's on
http://www-stage.seamonkeyproject.org/start/ already.
>>> ¤ Keep the "System Requirements" link (e.g. beneath "Release Notes").
>>> The system requireents are one of the first things I look for when
>>> considering to install a new software, and...
>>>
> Do You have any comments about the "legacy" "System Requirements" link?
> Will it be reimplemented, or have there been made other decisions
> regarding this.
As I said, I still have to look into that. Additionally, I see that we
never linked the system requirements directly there actually, we linked
the installation instructions that somewhere contain those as a remark.
>>> ¤ Screen shots, via an easily found link (and through clicking the
>>> small screen shot in the left, 2nd, column).
>>
>> Still need to look into those - if we want to do a good screen shot
>> page, we need to create such shots first.
>> Of course, we could even do a preview section there that shows a bit
>> how SeaMonkey 2 will look :)
>>
> Well, why not - if there is time for that?
Sure - any volunteers for creating that content?
Robert Kaiser