seamonkey-dev, and seamonkey-support lists/newsgroups

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Edmund Wong

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Mar 30, 2021, 2:50:18 AM3/30/21
to dev-apps-...@lists.mozilla.org, support-...@lists.mozilla.org
Dear All,

If you're not aware by now, please let me state that both the Mailing
Lists and Newsgroups will be decommissioned soon (Early April).

Why?
===

Why indeed. Tbh, I don't know why. I would believe it's related
to the overhead of maintenance and such; but whatever the
reasons are, it's a fact. This is going to go to /dev/null.


What to do?
==========

We're in the process of finding alternatives to these methods of
communications.

Yes, I'm quite dismayed at the loss of the newsgroups; but I'm
sure we'll make do with what we come up with as an alternative.

So please monitor any updates to https://blog.seamonkey-project.org.

Thanks!

Edmund

Richmond

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Mar 30, 2021, 9:15:42 AM3/30/21
to
Edmund Wong wrote:

> Why?
> ===
>
> Why indeed. Tbh, I don't know why. I would believe it's related
> to the overhead of maintenance and such; but whatever the
> reasons are, it's a fact. This is going to go to /dev/null.

Here are the reasons apparently.

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement

"Why can't we go news-only? One thing is much easier to maintain than three.
Get back to 1983, old-timer."

This is odd, as Thunderbird and Seamonkey are NNTP clients.

Dirk Fieldhouse

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Mar 30, 2021, 10:23:59 AM3/30/21
to
The next line does say that the writer personally uses NNTP.

From https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement

> Why can't we go mail-only? One thing is much easier to maintain than three.
>
> Presumably you mean mail-only with a web-based archive? Amazingly, it seems the open source community has still not managed to come up with mailing list management software with a decent web-based archiving interface. Mailman 3 looks like a possibility, but it's not there yet. And removal of the ability to post via the web would raise the barrier to entry of discussions.

Many open-source software groups (eg, Busybox) seem to have managed
this, apparently with Mailman 2.

The solution to searchable archives is including
site:lists.pipermail.package.domain in your Generic web search query
(alternatives exist:
<https://serverfault.com/questions/51007/whats-a-good-way-to-provide-a-searchable-interface-to-mailman-mailing-list-arch>).

The ability to post via the web sounds pretty trivial -- I mean, we're
not talking about porting Thunderbird to Web Assembly: you'd have
thought someone could have knocked that off in a few hours between the
important work of building a mobile OS and payment apps that no-one wanted.

I still wonder if Giganews would be open to supporting replacement
newsgroups.

/df

--
London
UK

Chris Ilias

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Mar 30, 2021, 11:38:55 AM3/30/21
to
Hi Richmond,
I can clarify that.

Most new contributors are not familiar with NNTP, and forcing them to
learn a new (ancient) technology just to participate in discussions is a
huge barrier.

Let's put it this way: Is there a bug in SeaMonkey that you want fixed?
We need more contributors that can fix it. When someone who can fix it
gets starting learning to contribute, they will inevitably have a
question, so they look for a place to ask. The technology used to ask
questions is not something they're familiar with and most importantly,
take quite a while to set up and learn. The new contributor says "forget
it; it's not worth my time", and as a result, your bug is not fixed.

From a moderator point of view, there's very little control over
trolls, abuse, and spam in an NNTP-only setup. We only have two options:
remove entire posts retroactively, or require every post to be approved
by a moderator.
If there's one word/line that needs to be removed, we have to delete the
entire message.
If the message needs to be moved to another forum, we have to delete the
entire message.

Removing posts also takes time.


In terms of communication tools, it's very helpful to add screenshots
and videos. With NNTP, that isn't an option. Even when you format the
post as HTML, there are complaints.

I don't even have time to get into the issue of publicizing your email
address for spammers to harvest.


As Dirk pointed out, the person who wrote that wiki page *in 2015*,
Gervase Markham (RIP) also preferred NNTP but acknowledged that it
doesn't meet modern requirements.

Richmond

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Mar 30, 2021, 1:27:03 PM3/30/21
to
Chris Ilias wrote:

>
> Let's put it this way: Is there a bug in SeaMonkey that you want fixed?
> We need more contributors that can fix it. When someone who can fix it
> gets starting learning to contribute, they will inevitably have a
> question, so they look for a place to ask. The technology used to ask
> questions is not something they're familiar with and most importantly,
> take quite a while to set up and learn. The new contributor says "forget
> it; it's not worth my time", and as a result, your bug is not fixed.
>

Yes I understand those points, on the other hand SM is an NNTP and SMTP
client, and both of those are old technologies. Anyone wanting to amend
those parts of SM will need to be familiar with them.

Not that I am a developer currently, so I wouldn't worry too much about
what I think. :)

Frank-Rainer Grahl

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Mar 30, 2021, 2:11:04 PM3/30/21
to
Mailing lists are imho fine for smaller closed community groups but totally
unsuitable in the current world with all the spammers and other idiots around.

But there is no reason to have only one support option. nntp still is fine for
discussions. We use ancient irc too and it works for us. And there is
mozillaZine if you prefer a web forum.

I don't think discourse is a good choice attractiong new contributors either
but that is just my personal 2 cents.

FRG

Don Spam's Reckless Son

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Mar 30, 2021, 2:25:56 PM3/30/21
to
I would have thought a lot of the moderation can be done using filters
on the server. You already zap messages from van Flintstone at a
certain time of day, I have not seen any other obvious filtration and
THERE IS A PAEDEOPHILE ASSASSIN CANDIDATE where zapping would have been
a "good thing" (tm).
Still, nuking the mozilla.support.seamonkey group is a hostile act. It
worked well as an interface between users - even to the extent that some
developers monitored it. The other mozilla.support groups also served a
useful purpose. As to harvesting email addresses, the way the server
was set up, this should have not have been a problem. The Vogons will
have known how to react to any mails my address generated.
It was not broke and fixing it was an act of spite.

--
spammo ergo sum, viruses courtesy of https://www.nsa.gov/malware/

Richard Owlett

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Mar 30, 2021, 2:56:59 PM3/30/21
to
As an "old foggy" well past "three score and ten" who dates from days of
Netscape, USENET {aka nntp} is a much better communication medium than
browser based fora. YMMV ;/



WaltS48

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Mar 30, 2021, 4:21:23 PM3/30/21
to
As an "ok boomer of 73" that has used Netscape, and USENET, I find more
knowledgeable and helpful users on web forums today.

The conversations also don't drift OT for very long or the moderators
will split the topic off, or lock it.

Sorry, for using a bad word there. 😉

--
OS: Fedora 33 Workstation - Gnome Desktop
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/get-involved/


Chris Ilias

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Mar 30, 2021, 6:09:55 PM3/30/21
to
On 2021-03-30 2:25 p.m., Don Spam's Reckless Son wrote:
Hi Don,
The server is not hosted by Mozilla, therefore it is not possible to use
filters on the news server.

Due to technical reasons, I am unable to remove the spam you're
referring to.

Both issues above were fixed in the solution proposed in the follow
link: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal

We implemented that configuration on both mozilla.support.firefox [1]
and mozilla.support.thunderbird [2]. In order to apply that
configuration to the Seamonkey groups, the list-owner has to request it
-
<https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.seamonkey/c/nMVwD74d79c/discussion>

I have no doubt that mozilla.support.seamonkey has not been useless, but
it's not the SeaMonkey groups per-se that are being shut down; it's the
entire server. For Mozilla discussion, the newsgroups have been a bad
solution for a long time.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the way the server was set up, this
should have not have been a problem".

[1]<https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.firefox/c/fVozIaA1dZk/m/otsD9HvZ7D8J>
[2]<https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.thunderbird/c/XezPpr_C5so/m/tc7qFbuNZj8J>

Philip Taylor

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Apr 1, 2021, 10:23:46 AM4/1/21
to Edmund Wong, dev-apps-...@lists.mozilla.org, support-...@lists.mozilla.org
Edmund Wong wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> If you're not aware by now, please let me state that both the Mailing
> Lists and Newsgroups will be decommissioned soon (Early April).

As one who has not used Usenet News since (probably) the 1980s, the
closure of the Seamonkey newsgroup(s) is not of paramount concern to
me.  However, e-mail is my primary communication medium, and the closure
of the mailing lists would be a significant barrier to remaining
informed of Seamonkey development (a topic dear to my heart, speaking as
one who had used Netscape and its offspring ever since its inception). 
However, I may well be in a minority, so I wonder if there is any
mechanism by which Seamonkey developers and their followers might be
polled to find out what fraction  rely on newsgroups, what fraction rely
on e-mail, and what fraction use another medium by which to remain
informed and/or contribute.  I suppose I should add that I have never
used IRC, nor would I wish to do so.
--
/Philip Taylor/

Ian Neal

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Apr 3, 2021, 6:44:49 PM4/3/21
to dev-apps-...@lists.mozilla.org
This mailing list has been migrated by Mozilla to a new home on Saturday
April 3. Recipients who have subscribed via lists.mozilla.org will be
migrated and no action is required. Participants who have subscribed via
NNTP or Google Groups will need to re-subscribe.

This mailing list has been running on legacy custom-patched mailman
software since the early Mozilla days. As many of you are aware, there
are limitations and sometimes loss of data with the old configuration,
so Mozilla are migrating this list to be hosted as a well-supported
email-based Google Group under Mozilla's Google Workspace (formerly
GSuite) account.

Currently this forum is accessed as follows:
- Mailing List: dev-apps-...@lists.mozilla.org

- Newsgroup: mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey

- Web: https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey/

This list will be archived and changed to read-only on April 3, after
which we will continue our conversations in the new list.

After the move, the access points will be:
- Mailing List: dev-apps-...@lists.mozilla.org

- Web:
https://groups.google.com/a/lists.mozilla.org/g/dev-apps-seamonkey/

Note: Newsgroup access is deprecated and will no longer be an access point.

Mozilla have pre-populated the new group’s members list with the active
users who subscribed to this list via lists.mozilla.org, and you will
begin to receive email from the new group as soon as messages are posted
to it. The default subscription is "Each email", so if you want to
change it to "Digest", "Abridged" or "No email" you will have to log
into Google Groups.

Mozilla do not have visibility into subscribers from NNTP or Google
Groups, so if you do not receive notifications from the new group, you
may subscribe by sending email to:
dev-apps-seamo...@lists.mozilla.org. The new group is
also public-facing via the web interface so you only need to subscribe
to the new group if you intend to post messages or if you want to
receive group conversations via email.

Past archives will be preserved here in this instance of Google Groups,
and future archives will be found in the new URL
https://groups.google.com/a/lists.mozilla.org/g/dev-apps-seamonkey/
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