Reinstall user experience problem with Firefox
John J. Barton
Firebug in a clean Firefox profile". Very often these users have already
uninstalled Firebug and it did not fix their problem. Then they
uninstall Firefox, and that did not work either. If they did not give
up, then they ask. The whole time the problem was in their profile.
Maybe we can't fix that, but at least once they decide to 'reinstall'
they should have a solution that really does 'reinstall' rather than
'uninstall but not really' followed by 'install but use old data'. I
think almost all users expect 'reinstall' to mean "please, please start
completely over so that old user experience goes away".
jjb
Mike Beltzner
> Maybe we can't fix that, but at least once they decide to 'reinstall' they should have a solution that really does 'reinstall' rather than 'uninstall but not really' followed by 'install but use old data'. I think almost all users expect 'reinstall' to mean "please, please start completely over so that old user experience goes away".
You want to tell them to uninstall, and check the box that says remove all of their preferences and settings. This, of course, means that they'll lose their bookmarks and passwords.
I'm somewhat curious to know why a reinstall of Firebug requires that they have a clean profile. It should be possible for you to programatically destroy any conflicting prefs that are causing problems, should it not?
cheers,
mike
John J. Barton
> On 2009-11-19, at 1:01 PM, John J. Barton wrote:
>
>> Maybe we can't fix that, but at least once they decide to 'reinstall' they should have a solution that really does 'reinstall' rather than 'uninstall but not really' followed by 'install but use old data'. I think almost all users expect 'reinstall' to mean "please, please start completely over so that old user experience goes away".
>
> You want to tell them to uninstall, and check the box that says remove all of their preferences and settings. This, of course, means that they'll lose their bookmarks and passwords.
No I do want them to uninstall at all and I do *not* want them to remove
all their preferences and settings!
In fact I don't want to tell them anything. I'm not even in the loop at
the point of this problem. This is before they contact us. They want to
'reinstall' Firefox to fix a problem. But 'uninstall' plus 'new
download' *always* fails for them. It does not cause the effect they
desire. Finally they contact us, then we have to tell them (over and
over and over), "sorry, Firefox uninstall is a waste of time".
An new option on the uninstall could be "Re-try Firefox with fresh
settings". It would just create a new profile. Or "Re-install Firefox"
could create a new profile and re-download.
>
> I'm somewhat curious to know why a reinstall of Firebug requires that they have a clean profile. It should be possible for you to programatically destroy any conflicting prefs that are causing problems, should it not?
No, I don't want them to reinstall Firebug! That never does anything. We
have a "reset all Firebug options", but most of the time the problem is
another Firefox extension, eg HTMLValidator or ZoneAlarm or an
incompatible Firebug extension. But of course we have not way to know.
Clean profile is far and away the best bet.
jjb
Benjamin Smedberg
> Maybe we can't fix that, but at least once they decide to 'reinstall'
> they should have a solution that really does 'reinstall' rather than
> 'uninstall but not really' followed by 'install but use old data'. I
> think almost all users expect 'reinstall' to mean "please, please start
> completely over so that old user experience goes away".
On the contrary, I don't think users expect this at all. If you're
reinstalling your word processor, does that make all your documents
disappear, or even the list of recently used documents in the menu? No, and
neither should reinstalling the application cause all the user's precious
data to disappear!
--BDS
Millwood
> No, I don't want them to reinstall Firebug! That never does anything.
> We have a "reset all Firebug options", but most of the time the
> problem is another Firefox extension, eg HTMLValidator or ZoneAlarm
> or an incompatible Firebug extension. But of course we have not way
> to know. Clean profile is far and away the best bet.
Isn't that what the profile manager is for? After using safe mode to
verify it's a settings issue?
The only issue I have is that AFAIK a profile manager link isn't
automatically installed - only normal and safe mode.
John J. Barton
I am only relating what actual users tell me. Personally, I have to say
that this analogy does not make sense to me. If I reinstalled my word
processor I *would* expect any settings I made on the UI for the word
processor to change back to their default values. The documents edited
by the word process are analogous to web sites, which I would not expect
to change when I reinstalled Firefox ;-).
But that is not my point anyway. When Firefox users have a problem with
Firefox what actions do they take to recover? From what I hear, a common
action is 'reinstall'. What could they mean by this? Well it's clear
they want something other than an exact copy of the old behavior right?
But Firefox reinstall leads them right back to the old result, very
frustrating to users.
jjb
John J. Barton
> On 11/19/2009 John J. Barton wrote:
>> No, I don't want them to reinstall Firebug! That never does anything.
>> We have a "reset all Firebug options", but most of the time the
>> problem is another Firefox extension, eg HTMLValidator or ZoneAlarm or
>> an incompatible Firebug extension. But of course we have not way to
>> know. Clean profile is far and away the best bet.
>
> Isn't that what the profile manager is for? After using safe mode to
> verify it's a settings issue?
Neither the profile manager nor the safe mode are available on the
uninstall procedure. That is my point exactly.
>
> The only issue I have is that AFAIK a profile manager link isn't
> automatically installed - only normal and safe mode.
I don't think users ever see either of those links, even in normal
operation they use the Windows Start thingy, not the program files
links. But its not relevant, because they are not running Firefox they
are uninstalling it.
The user has decided to fix Firefox. They have experience from other
applications or friends: try reinstalling. They first uninstall. Then
they install. Nothing good happens.
Robert Strong
stated - at least on Windows - reinstalling as well as uninstalling /
installing an app does not normally muck with user data and settings.
Also, this doesn't solve the problem for other platforms. I understand
the desire to just add this to uninstall / reinstall but I know that
there are just as many if not more people that would be up in arms if we
did so.
Robert
John J. Barton
> On 11/19/2009 11:03 AM, John J. Barton wrote:
> I agree that there is a problem to be solved here but as bsmedberg
> stated - at least on Windows - reinstalling as well as uninstalling /
> installing an app does not normally muck with user data and settings.
> Also, this doesn't solve the problem for other platforms. I understand
> the desire to just add this to uninstall / reinstall but I know that
> there are just as many if not more people that would be up in arms if we
> did so.
Did what? Well let me answer:
Add to the uninstall panel a new option:
"Try Firefox again, with fresh, default user settings"
Why would people be up in arms for that?
jjb
Mike Beltzner
> Add to the uninstall panel a new option:
>
> "Try Firefox again, with fresh, default user settings"
>
> Why would people be up in arms for that?
We have that on the uninstall panel.
cheers,
mike
Robert Strong
b) this doesn't cover all platforms hence I suggested indirectly that
there is the ability to do this within the app.
Robert Strong
> b) this doesn't cover all platforms hence I suggested indirectly that
> there is the ability to do this within the app.
cookies, etc... if you don't we have the ability to delete all profiles
that are in the profiles directory via uninstall
Robert
John J. Barton
Ok then the support site must be out of date:
http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Uninstalling+Firefox
jjb
Jesper Kristensen
Two things:
When users encounter serious problems with Firefox, some of them try to
uninstall and reinstall. Firefox needs some better UI along that path to
redirect them to relevant troubleshooting information.
I think a lot of your users would be better off if you redirected them
to sumo or wherever people are offering support, rather than telling
them to destroy all their Firefox data. In most cases the problem can be
solved with lot less destructive means, and doing so may actually help
surface bugs in both Firefox and Firebug, which can then be fixed for
the benefit of everybody.
John J. Barton
> John J. Barton skrev:
>> One of the most common things I have to tell Firebug users is "Install
>> Firebug in a clean Firefox profile". Very often these users have
>> already uninstalled Firebug and it did not fix their problem. Then
>> they uninstall Firefox, and that did not work either. If they did not
>> give up, then they ask. The whole time the problem was in their profile.
>>
>> Maybe we can't fix that, but at least once they decide to 'reinstall'
>> they should have a solution that really does 'reinstall' rather than
>> 'uninstall but not really' followed by 'install but use old data'. I
>> think almost all users expect 'reinstall' to mean "please, please
>> start completely over so that old user experience goes away".
>>
>> jjb
>
> Two things:
>
> When users encounter serious problems with Firefox, some of them try to
> uninstall and reinstall. Firefox needs some better UI along that path to
> redirect them to relevant troubleshooting information.
Yes, I sure agree with that.
>
> I think a lot of your users would be better off if you redirected them
> to sumo or wherever people are offering support, rather than telling
? whereever people are offering support? Where *is* that?
Have you tried SUMO? Try "firebug install". Does it tell you that
Kapersky Anti Virus is broken and blocks Firebug? How about Zone Alarm
Pro? I'll stop: the SUMO database is old.
> them to destroy all their Firefox data. In most cases the problem can be
> solved with lot less destructive means, and doing so may actually help
At no time and in no case have I ever told a user to destroy all of
their Firefox data. I don't know where you got that idea.
> surface bugs in both Firefox and Firebug, which can then be fixed for
> the benefit of everybody.
Suppose it did. How would you propose to get a fix? Not by posting to
this newsgroup I guess.
jjb
Millwood
AFAIK, firebug is a web development tool for people for whom looking
inside web pages is useful.
Yet these same people are incapable of being told how to use the profile
manager?
Sorry - It just doesn't compute.
John J Barton
> John J. Barton skrev:
> I think a lot of your users would be better off if you redirected them
> to sumo or wherever people are offering support, rather than telling
> them to destroy all their Firefox data. In most cases the problem can be
> solved with lot less destructive means, and doing so may actually help
> surface bugs in both Firefox and Firebug, which can then be fixed for
> the benefit of everybody.
In re-reading my reply to Jesper I realize I was reacting strongly when
I should have just assume that Jesper's understand of the issues was not
the same as mine. I will try again:
I wish I could redirect users who have troubles to someone or some where
that can help them. However to the best of my knowledge there is no one
and no place to send them that can help.
Consequently it seems reasonable to me to see what can be done to
prevent users from being in the bad situation in the first place.
The two categories of problems that Firebug developers cannot fix are
"fails to install" or "is horribly broken and can't recover". Reinstall
is one path in the "can't recover". So the question is, can any of this
be "fixed for the benefit of everybody"?
jjb
John J Barton
I routinely direct these user to instructions on how to use the profile
manager and they are routinely successful. That is not the issue.
The problem here is that some users do not know about the profile
manager. Therefore they cannot know to use it. Instead they are taking
the only action that makes sense to them, and it is a very sensible one:
reinstalling. Unfortunately for them, it fails. They try again. Again
they fail. How many give up? I don't know.
All I am suggesting is to think about some way of helping users who,
logically and for reasons that are not irrational even if not perfect,
decide to uninstall Firefox to then install it again. Fruitlessly. A
small hint on the uninstall path is one suggestion. Perhaps it has
already been implemented but the documentation has not been updated.
jjb
Jesper Kristensen
What I am trying to say is, that my experience when answering several
support questions each day, is that a new profile works rarer than once
a month. When encountering a really broken Firefox, an addon is most
likely, so safe-mode is the first try. If that doesn't work, a corrupt
file in the profile is the second most likely, in which case I usually
instruct the user to delete that one file. In my experience there are
only a few files in the profile folder, which can break Firefox and the
symptoms of each of them are different. If I cannot file a specific
file, I then try with a new profile, but that almost never works as the
problem in that case is most likely another process interacting badly
with the Firefox process.
That is, if I try the less drastic solutions first, creating a new
profile almost never works. I don't know if that could be the same for
Firebug users, as very few of the questions I answer are related to
Firebug, I just want to say that it might be.
johnjbarton
Yes, I think our experiences are different because we are talking to
users with a different set of problems.
People who complain to the Firebug group have a problem with Firebug,
not Firefox. If Firefox was broken, they would contact you instead.
Running in safe-mode is not relevant for people with Firebug problems:
Firebug is not loaded in Safe-mode. Since safe-mode is not relevant,
the rest of the diagnosis procedure to look for a bad file does not
apply.
The people I hear from have a Firefox that is basically fine, but
fails to install or run Firebug for some reason. The most common
install failure reasons are file/user permissions (support pages are
helpful) or antivirus failures (support pages fail). The most common
runtime failure reasons are interference from another extension. The
first step to diagnose extension interference is to install Firebug in
a new profile. This is not a drastic step at all, it is easy and
rarely causes users difficulty.
Finally, the only support page on extension problems that I know
about, http://kb.mozillazine.org/Problematic_extensions, is
fundamentally broken. It assumes that the problem is in the extension.
However, the problem is in the firefox system: two extensions can
interfere with each other and there is no procedure to avoid or
recover from it.
There are various steps needed to improve the current state of
affairs. Since our number one practical diagnostic tool is separate
install in a new Firefox profile, better support for profiles would
help. (I realize that a large fraction of the Firefox user base does
not need profiles, but a large fraction of the Firefox extension user
base does!). One aspect of better support was what I was trying to
suggest in my original post.
jjb
Asa Dotzler
I believe that some other browsers have a pretty prominent "reset to
factory defaults" menu item or other trigger which gives them an
opportunity to start fresh or select some of their data to hold onto.
Safe Mode does some of this, but it's not easy to find and it's not a
very friendly UI. Also, this wouldn't fix a problem in the Firefox app
directory, I suspect (so conflicts with components from AV vendors, etc.
wouldn't be fixed.) and I suspect this also doesn't address a bad NPAPI
plug-in since I don't think Safe Mode deals with those.
I think a Restore Factory Defaults menu item that accomplishes "I'd like
a new Firefox with (any of) my bookmarks, history, cookies, and
passwords preserved" that actually does a back-up of just those files,
does a full clean re-install of the Firefox app, creates a new profile
with back-up files migrated, and launches with all NPAPI plug-ins
temporarily disabled, would be a nice solution for people experiencing
browser problems.
In my experience manually doing just that, I have fixed every single
"broken" Firefox I've come across without losing any critical data.
After such a "cleaning" I find performance problems disappear, stability
drastically improves, and the users I'm helping (friends and family) are
thrilled with Firefox again.
A solution that:
1. creates a new profile with only critical data migrated to wipe out
extension and profile problems,
2. does a clean Firefox install to wipe out any app directory problems
3. disables plug-ins until users go through a plug-in update check and
encourages users to not re-enable any plug-ins they don't recognize
would stem a good chunk of our churn resulting from stability and
performance concerns.
- A
Alex Faaborg
> like a new Firefox with (any of) my bookmarks, history, cookies, and
> passwords preserved" that actually does a back-up of just those
> files, does a full clean re-install of the Firefox app, creates a
> new profile with back-up files migrated, and launches with all NPAPI
> plug-ins temporarily disabled, would be a nice solution for people
> experiencing browser problems.
If the transition to the new profile with all of the user's data is
lossless, we should probably just detect enough relevant problems and
then do the transition silently in the background. Just working is
better than the user having to hit the "make it work" button :)
That said, we might want to also always go through this process as
well when the user reinstalls Firefox on top of an existing profile, I
get the impression that a lot of users try to solve problems by
uninstalling and reinstalling, but since the profile remains untouched
they never actually accomplish anything.
-Alex
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> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox
John J. Barton
>> I think a Restore Factory Defaults menu item that accomplishes "I'd
>> like a new Firefox with (any of) my bookmarks, history, cookies, and
>> passwords preserved" that actually does a back-up of just those files,
>> does a full clean re-install of the Firefox app, creates a new profile
>> with back-up files migrated, and launches with all NPAPI plug-ins
>> temporarily disabled, would be a nice solution for people experiencing
>> browser problems.
>
> If the transition to the new profile with all of the user's data is
> lossless, we should probably just detect enough relevant problems and
> then do the transition silently in the background. Just working is
> better than the user having to hit the "make it work" button :)
But as I understand it, the 'Restore' Asa suggests is *not* lossless:
the addons and option are lost.
The two most common sources of error just that: 1) options, 2) extension
interactions. We could have better solutions for both of these.
Options can be fixed by new UI/architecture. It's so bad that it would
not be hard to do better.
Interactions is much harder, because of combinatorics (including
options!). A big step would be co-testing of common extension
combinations. May not get to 100% but we are now at 0%.
>
> That said, we might want to also always go through this process as well
> when the user reinstalls Firefox on top of an existing profile, I get
> the impression that a lot of users try to solve problems by uninstalling
> and reinstalling, but since the profile remains untouched they never
> actually accomplish anything.
And in the process this creates a *lot* of overhead for extension
developers.
jjb
intrudere
<moznewsgro...@something.to.remove.jesperkristensen.dk> wrote:
> John J. Barton skrev:
>
> > Una de las cosas más comunes que tienen que decir a los usuarios Firebug es "Instalar
> > Firebug en un perfil de Firefox limpio ". Muy a menudo estos usuarios ya han
> > Desinstalar Firebug y no corregir el problema. Luego
> > Desinstalar Firefox, y que tampoco funcionó. Si no se dan
> >, Entonces se lo preguntan. Durante todo el tiempo el problema estaba en su perfil.
>
> > Tal vez no podamos arreglar eso, pero al menos, una vez que deciden "volver a instalar"
> > Que debe tener una solución que realmente significa "instalar" en lugar de
> > 'Desinstalación, pero no realmente' seguido de 'instalar, pero el uso de datos antiguos. I
> > Pensar en casi todos los usuarios esperan que "instalar" para decir "por favor, por favor, empezar
> > Completamente sobre lo que la experiencia de usuario anterior desaparece ".
>
> > JJB
>
> Dos cosas:
>
> Cuando los usuarios tropiezan con graves problemas con Firefox, algunos de ellos tratan de
> desinstalar y reinstalar. Firefox necesita un poco mejor la interfaz de usuario a lo largo de ese camino para
> reoriente a la información de solución de problemas relevantes.
>
> Creo que muchos de sus usuarios sería mejor si se les redirige
> al sumo o donde la gente está ofreciendo apoyo, en lugar de decir
> a destruir a todos sus datos de Firefox. En la mayoría de los casos el problema puede ser
> resolver con medios mucho menos destructiva, y si lo hace puede ayudar realmente a
> errores de superficie en Firefox y Firebug, que puede ser fijada para
> en beneficio de todos.
if any extension user
David McRitchie
> I think a Restore Factory Defaults menu item that accomplishes "I'd like
> a new Firefox with (any of) my bookmarks, history, cookies, and
> passwords preserved" that actually does a back-up of just those files,
> does a full clean re-install of the Firefox app, creates a new profile
> with back-up files migrated, and launches with all NPAPI plug-ins
> temporarily disabled, would be a nice solution for people experiencing
> browser problems.
When I look at what I have to carry over to a new profile, to include all of the
the above and my options, and customizations, it essentially means copying
everything, because there is a lot of work involved. .
Missing from that list in Safe Mode of things you can destroy, is a truly safe option
to remove index files, etc that Firefox will simply rebuild without any loss of data or
options. The closest to that is the "Reset toolbars and controls" (localstore.rdf)
which will mean user has to recustomize toolbars.
Really do not think that the items on the left side of the Firefox Safe Mode dialog
belong there at all because they make it not safe mode at all, and even worse there
are no explanations included -- users think it is part of Safe Mode
In Firefox 3.6 the Help item "Troubleshooting Information..."
provides information on installed extensions which I think extensions could
use line item timestamps, but more important if this were rolled into daily, weekly,
monthly logs an automated word comparison between two dates (lists) like when it
worked and when it failed would help in solving a lot of problems (more than just looking at one list).
You can get an idea of what would be seen by pasting lists from different dates
into http://www.quickdiff.com/index.php and see also how it would be greatly
improved if the comparison knew the hierarchy involved .
One thing that hurts is to have all of your extensions disabled or all of your extensions
enabled and not have a list of which you originally had disabled.
David McRitchie
Asa Dotzler
> "Asa Dotzler" wrote
>> I think a Restore Factory Defaults menu item that accomplishes "I'd
>> like a new Firefox with (any of) my bookmarks, history, cookies, and
>> passwords preserved" that actually does a back-up of just those files,
>> does a full clean re-install of the Firefox app, creates a new profile
>> with back-up files migrated, and launches with all NPAPI plug-ins
>> temporarily disabled, would be a nice solution for people experiencing
>> browser problems.
>
> When I look at what I have to carry over to a new profile, to include
> all of the
> the above and my options, and customizations,
What do you mean by "options and customizations"? Which files? your
prefs.js probably should not be one of the things you carry over.
Add-ons often push all kinds of crap into that file. I've seen mine grow
to tens of kilobytes (of text!!!). I explicitly want that file to be
recreated.
> it essentially means copying everything, because there is a lot of work involved. .
>
> Missing from that list in Safe Mode of things you can destroy, is a
> truly safe option to remove index files, etc that Firefox will simply
> rebuild without any loss of data or options. The closest to that is the
> "Reset toolbars and controls" (localstore.rdf) which will mean user has
> to recustomize toolbars.
I don't think the indexes are a problem. If the key user data can be
exported and re-imported or simply copied to the new profile, that means
new indexes will be created.
> One thing that hurts is to have all of your extensions disabled or all
> of your extensions enabled and not have a list of which you originally
> had disabled.
I don't think this is a big issue when considering the reason people
might be troubleshooting like this is very likely a "broken" Firefox.
- A
David McRitchie
> On 12/31/2009 9:35 AM, David McRitchie wrote:
>> "Asa Dotzler" wrote
>>> I think a Restore Factory Defaults menu item that accomplishes "I'd
>>> like a new Firefox with (any of) my bookmarks, history, cookies, and
>>> passwords preserved" that actually does a back-up of just those files,
>>> does a full clean re-install of the Firefox app, creates a new profile
>>> with back-up files migrated, and launches with all NPAPI plug-ins
>>> temporarily disabled, would be a nice solution for people experiencing
>>> browser problems.
>>
>> When I look at what I have to carry over to a new profile, to include
>> all of the
>> the above and my options, and customizations,
>
>
> What do you mean by "options and customizations"? Which files? your
> prefs.js probably should not be one of the things you carry over.
> Add-ons often push all kinds of crap into that file. I've seen mine grow
> to tens of kilobytes (of text!!!). I explicitly want that file to be
> recreated.
Well I certainly meant that files like prefs.js and userjs were important, I
thought everyone wanted those preserved along with bookmarks, history.
But I look through the profile there is a lot of work into a lot of files that
I would not want to redo. Extensions, userchrome files, styling, files used
by extensions basically everything that is not just something that can be
rebuilt by Firefox.
>> it essentially means copying everything, because there is a lot of work involved. .
>>
>> Missing from that list in Safe Mode of things you can destroy, is a
>> truly safe option to remove index files, etc that Firefox will simply
>> rebuild without any loss of data or options. The closest to that is the
>> "Reset toolbars and controls" (localstore.rdf) which will mean user has
>> to recustomize toolbars.
>
>
> I don't think the indexes are a problem. If the key user data can be
> exported and re-imported or simply copied to the new profile, that means
> new indexes will be created.
I didn't say to preserve them, I said to get rid of them right within the same
profile, and that includes cache and downloads which is kind of misnomer
because the downloads are saved elsewhere the downloads is just another
index. Those gone and rebuilt and a lot of user problems with Firefox would
probably disappear without any loss to the user.
>> One thing that hurts is to have all of your extensions disabled or all
>> of your extensions enabled and not have a list of which you originally
>> had disabled.
>
> I don't think this is a big issue when considering the reason people
> might be troubleshooting like this is very likely a "broken" Firefox.
So this really hasn't much to do with preserving user data, as it is in creating a test
profile for Firefox testing ? Well anyway I hope someone take a stab at
preserving compressed HELP "Troubleshooting Information...." listings similar to bookmarks
being archived so that the list of extensions and settings can be compared -- that would at
least be helpful for debugging. Firefox.
John J. Barton
...
> I didn't say to preserve them, I said to get rid of them right within
> the same
> profile, and that includes cache and downloads which is kind of misnomer
> because the downloads are saved elsewhere the downloads is just another
> index. Those gone and rebuilt and a lot of user problems with
> Firefox would probably disappear without any loss to the user.
The reinstall user experiences that I hear about over and over again
fall into three categories: 1) add-on interference (most common), 2)
options fail to reset so users don't regain function they have broken by
setting a pref, 3) Windows registry problems (least common). Unless
these cases are addressed, the reinstall problem is not solved for the
users that contact our newsgroup and bug list. I know of only one case
where a cache or index causes a problem, and I was the user in that case.
jjb
David McRitchie
Whatever you're looking for you usually find. But I think that you would
have to admit that a new profile is really only the best solution for number
3 which sounds like possibly profile brought over rather than created by Firefox
and the old profile could be be copied into new profile.
I would say that Corrupt localstore.rdf appeared to be the major problem between
Dec 30 - Jan 1 on Hendrix. Don't know if they came directly from 2.0.0.*
to 3.5.6 or 3.6 beta. Some that look like AVG Safe Search -- thought that was supposed to be
blocked.
The main annoyance was that Firefox does not stop and the workarounds are File > Exit
or if restarting to use is "Quick Restart" extension . BTW there were some suggestions
from a Mac user and from a Safari user.
John J. Barton
> "John J. Barton" <johnj...@johnjbarton.com> wrote in message
> news:eZqdnRRyw8azT6PW...@mozilla.org...
>> David McRitchie wrote:
>> ...
>>> I didn't say to preserve them, I said to get rid of them right within
>>> the same
>>> profile, and that includes cache and downloads which is kind of
>>> misnomer because the downloads are saved elsewhere the downloads is
>>> just another
>>> index. Those gone and rebuilt and a lot of user problems with
>>> Firefox would probably disappear without any loss to the user.
>>
>> The reinstall user experiences that I hear about over and over again
>> fall into three categories: 1) add-on interference (most common), 2)
>> options fail to reset so users don't regain function they have broken
>> by setting a pref, 3) Windows registry problems (least common).
>> Unless these cases are addressed, the reinstall problem is not solved
>> for the users that contact our newsgroup and bug list. I know of only
>> one case where a cache or index causes a problem, and I was the user
>> in that case.
>
> Whatever you're looking for you usually find.
I don't understand what this comment has to do the topic.
> But I think that you would
> have to admit that a new profile is really only the best solution for
> number
> 3 which sounds like possibly profile brought over rather than created by
> Firefox
> and the old profile could be be copied into new profile.
I would not admit any such proposal. Window registry problem cannot be
solved by creating a new profile.
> I would say that Corrupt localstore.rdf appeared to be the major
> problem between
> Dec 30 - Jan 1 on Hendrix. Don't know if they came directly from
> 2.0.0.* to 3.5.6 or 3.6 beta. Some that look like AVG Safe Search --
> thought that was supposed to be
> blocked.
We've never had a problem with localstore.rdf.
> The main annoyance was that Firefox does not stop and the workarounds
> are File > Exit or if restarting to use is "Quick Restart"
> extension . BTW there were some suggestions
> from a Mac user and from a Safari user.
I've not heard of such problems from Firebug users.
jjb
Shawn Wilsher
> The reinstall user experiences that I hear about over and over again
> fall into three categories: 1) add-on interference (most common), 2)
> options fail to reset so users don't regain function they have broken
> by setting a pref, 3) Windows registry problems (least common).
> Unless these cases are addressed, the reinstall problem is not solved
> for the users that contact our newsgroup and bug list. I know of only
> one case where a cache or index causes a problem, and I was the user
> in that case.
Cheers,
Shawn
John J. Barton
Yes, so I would expect they would be representative of Firefox users who
install add-ons then have problems. I assume that these users are more
likely to have reinstall problems than other users, since they have
addons in their profile.
jjb
David McRitchie
Sorry didn't realize it was only about Firebug maybe subject
should have said Firebug instead of Firefox . Sorry for intruding.
None of the comments I made had anything to with Firebug.
John J. Barton
I really think this is part of the issue with reinstall. Users with
extensions have a different set of problems and issues with re-install.
When users have a problem with an extensions that other extension users
or the extension authors cannot reproduce, they may try re-install. When
this fails, as it almost always will, they are really in trouble. Their
browser is broken and they are "alone" in this problem. Furthermore they
will get contradictory advice. For example, I would tell them to create
a new profile, but other people will tell them never do that.
Issues requiring new profiles are the number one headache for supporting
Firebug users. The re-install problem makes it worse.
jjb
Blair McBride
> 2) options fail to reset so users don't regain function they have
> broken by setting a pref
Curious, is this Firefox prefs or Firebug prefs? Even manually setting
prefs shouldn't ever actually *break* anything - there should be sanity
checks in place to prevent that.
- Blair
Boris Zbarsky
> Curious, is this Firefox prefs or Firebug prefs? Even manually setting
> prefs shouldn't ever actually *break* anything - there should be sanity
> checks in place to prevent that.
It depends on how you define "break". It's possible to cripple the
browser's performance (turn off the jit, muck about with the parser
interrupt settings, enable string JS warnings, disable the XUL prototype
cache, change the HTTP networking settings to only use 1 connection per
server, turn off the disk and memory caches, etc) with preferences. All
of those are "sane" settings in certain situations...
There are also certain security preferences you can set that could break
some sites. Similar for popup settings. Still sane things to set in
some cases.
You can also make the toolbars completely unusable by sticking
everything from the toolbar customization palette on them. Should that
be sanity-checked for?
-Boris
Asa Dotzler
Boris is right. There are literally hundreds of pages out on the Web
telling users to muck about with preferences in about:config or even in
pref UI that can literally "break" the browser.
Uninstalling Firefox and re-installing won't fix it if the profile isn't
replaced because most of these settings are preserved in the profile.
- A
John J. Barton
> On 1/2/2010 4:24 PM, Boris Zbarsky wrote:
>> On 1/2/10 6:57 PM, Blair McBride wrote:
>>> Curious, is this Firefox prefs or Firebug prefs? Even manually setting
>>> prefs shouldn't ever actually *break* anything - there should be sanity
>>> checks in place to prevent that.
>>
>> It depends on how you define "break". It's possible to cripple the
>> browser's performance (turn off the jit, muck about with the parser
>> interrupt settings, enable string JS warnings, disable the XUL prototype
>> cache, change the HTTP networking settings to only use 1 connection per
>> server, turn off the disk and memory caches, etc) with preferences. All
>> of those are "sane" settings in certain situations...
> Uninstalling Firefox and re-installing won't fix it if the profile isn't
> replaced because most of these settings are preserved in the profile.
And, relating to Asa's suggestion of a reset feature, Firebug 1.4 added
a "Reset All Firebug Options" button.
jjb
Robert Strong
> David McRitchie wrote:
>> But I think that you would
>> have to admit that a new profile is really only the best solution for
>> number
>> 3 which sounds like possibly profile brought over rather than created
>> by Firefox
>> and the old profile could be be copied into new profile.
>
> I would not admit any such proposal. Window registry problem cannot be
> solved by creating a new profile.
The installer *does* fix those on install and the only ways I know of
that they could break are when manually editing the registry or when
having multiple installation the start menu internet entries for Vista
and below can get messed up due to Windows not supporting multiple
installations for this functionality both of which can be fixed by
reinstalling.
Robert
John J. Barton
I only hear about these after the fact. The typical case is a user
report to the Firebug newsgroup that they are unable to install Firebug.
If a new profile fails, I refer them to Firefox support. (BTW, I've
never had anyone say that this worked). Later they report success with
some registry change. Doesn't mean its true of course.
jjb