New Places Mockups

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Alex Faaborg

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Aug 24, 2007, 5:31:33 AM8/24/07
to dev-apps-firefox
Here is the latest round of Places mockups

Bookmarks Sidebar: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png
History Sidebar: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_HistorySidebar_i2.png
New Bookmark Dialog: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_NewBookmarkDialog_i7.png
Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory): http://people.mozilla.com/
~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_UnifyingSearch_i1.png

Places Organizer:
Overall Window Layout: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerWindowLayout_i5.png
History: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
places_OrganizerHistory_i5.png
Tags: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
places_OrganizerTags_i5.png
Advanced Search: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerAdvancedSearch_i5.png

A lot of this stuff is being implemented as we speak, but feel free
to provide any last minute feedback in this thread.

Cheers,
-Alex

Thomas Stache

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Aug 24, 2007, 5:57:27 AM8/24/07
to
Alex Faaborg schrieb:

> Here is the latest round of Places mockups
>

Sorry for being OT, but would it be possible to use a decent mail client
for these messages full of links? Apple Mail always inserts line breaks,
as seen here:
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.firefox/browse_frm/thread/3b97116909cebef0/7a4917955e295604#7a4917955e295604>

You're working at Mozilla, they have one: Thunderbird. ;-)

Alex Faaborg

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Aug 24, 2007, 6:18:47 AM8/24/07
to Thomas Stache, dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
Yes, that is really annoying. Let's see if angle brackets makes any
difference to google group's ability to parse URI across lines:

Bookmarks Sidebar: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png>

History Sidebar: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_HistorySidebar_i2.png>

New Bookmark Dialog: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_NewBookmarkDialog_i7.png>

Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory): <http://people.mozilla.com/
~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_UnifyingSearch_i1.png>

Places Organizer:
Overall Window Layout: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerWindowLayout_i5.png>

History: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
places_OrganizerHistory_i5.png>

Tags: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
places_OrganizerTags_i5.png>

Advanced Search: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerAdvancedSearch_i5.png>

> _______________________________________________
> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox

Alex Faaborg

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Aug 24, 2007, 6:28:15 AM8/24/07
to dev-apps-firefox
Apparently not so much. Richtext?

Bookmarks Sidebar
History Sidebar
New Bookmark Dialog
Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory)

Places Organizer:

Overall Window Layout
History
Tags
Advanced Search

On Aug 24, 2007, at 3:18 AM, Alex Faaborg wrote:

> Yes, that is really annoying. Let's see if angle brackets makes any
> difference to google group's ability to parse URI across lines:
>

> Bookmarks Sidebar: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
> granParadisoUI/places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png>
>
> History Sidebar: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
> granParadisoUI/places_HistorySidebar_i2.png>
>
> New Bookmark Dialog: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
> granParadisoUI/places_NewBookmarkDialog_i7.png>
>
> Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory): <http://people.mozilla.com/
> ~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_UnifyingSearch_i1.png>
>
> Places Organizer:
> Overall Window Layout: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
> granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerWindowLayout_i5.png>
>
> History: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
> places_OrganizerHistory_i5.png>
>
> Tags: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
> places_OrganizerTags_i5.png>
>
> Advanced Search: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
> granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerAdvancedSearch_i5.png>
>
>

> On Aug 24, 2007, at 2:57 AM, Thomas Stache wrote:
>

Alex Faaborg

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Aug 24, 2007, 6:37:18 AM8/24/07
to dev-apps-firefox
... converted to plaintext before posting. Stupid late 70s era
Usenet. Here are some tinyurls for your clicking enjoyment.

Bookmarks Sidebar
http://tinyurl.com/2ojfvr

History Sidebar
http://tinyurl.com/3yrpbj

New Bookmark Dialog
http://tinyurl.com/34g9wm

Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory)
http://tinyurl.com/368loo


Places Organizer:

Overall Window Layout
http://tinyurl.com/3b44jd

History
http://tinyurl.com/38fjva

Tags
http://tinyurl.com/33rdrd

Advanced Search
http://tinyurl.com/2lqcst


On Aug 24, 2007, at 3:28 AM, Alex Faaborg wrote:

> Apparently not so much. Richtext?
>
> Bookmarks Sidebar
> History Sidebar
> New Bookmark Dialog
> Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory)
>

> Places Organizer:
>
> Overall Window Layout

> History
> Tags
> Advanced Search
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2007, at 3:18 AM, Alex Faaborg wrote:
>
>> Yes, that is really annoying. Let's see if angle brackets makes any
>> difference to google group's ability to parse URI across lines:
>>

>> Bookmarks Sidebar: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
>> granParadisoUI/places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png>
>>
>> History Sidebar: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
>> granParadisoUI/places_HistorySidebar_i2.png>
>>
>> New Bookmark Dialog: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
>> granParadisoUI/places_NewBookmarkDialog_i7.png>
>>
>> Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory): <http://people.mozilla.com/
>> ~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_UnifyingSearch_i1.png>
>>
>> Places Organizer:
>> Overall Window Layout: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
>> granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerWindowLayout_i5.png>
>>
>> History: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_OrganizerHistory_i5.png>
>>
>> Tags: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_OrganizerTags_i5.png>
>>
>> Advanced Search: <http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/
>> granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerAdvancedSearch_i5.png>
>>
>>

>> On Aug 24, 2007, at 2:57 AM, Thomas Stache wrote:
>>

Jesper Kristensen

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Aug 24, 2007, 6:44:49 AM8/24/07
to
Alex Faaborg skrev:

> Here is the latest round of Places mockups
>
>
> A lot of this stuff is being implemented as we speak, but feel free to
> provide any last minute feedback in this thread.

This looks great! Just a few comments:

New bookmark: I would like a heading in the new bookmarks popup that
says "You have created a new bookmark", "edit bookmark" or something
like that. When I first tried the current trunk yesterday and clicked
the star button in the location bar, I am not sure I would have figured
out what had happened if I had not followed the discussions in this
newsgroup.

Location bar: What is the difference between "Locations" and "History"?
How do the Google search section work? If Firefox by default is going to
send each and every URL I type into the location bar to Google, I am
going to find another browser. That is a privacy no-go for me.

Organizer: Is the sort order going to affect the bookmarks menu? In
Firefox 2 some users complain that the bookmarks manager and the
bookmarks menu show bookmarks in different order.

Thomas Stache

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Aug 24, 2007, 9:06:00 AM8/24/07
to Jesper Kristensen
Jesper Kristensen schrieb:

> This looks great! Just a few comments:
>
> New bookmark: I would like a heading in the new bookmarks popup that
> says "You have created a new bookmark", "edit bookmark" or something
> like that.

I agree, but I also want to add: I find it a bit unintuitive at the
moment. The first time I encountered that UI in a nightly I was on a
page already "starred". So when I clicked the yellow star I got the
popup as a "bookmarks properties". I thought "ok, don't want to mess
with that", and I wanted to cancel. Too late I noticed that this is not
of the expected OK_CANCEL "message box" type, but an "OK_DELETEMYDATA" type.

I think its worth to evaluate if this box needs to provide an obvious
way out.

Thomas

PS: Alex, thanks for your effort with the links, sorry about the
headache ;-)

Thomas Stache

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Aug 24, 2007, 9:06:19 AM8/24/07
to
Jesper Kristensen schrieb:

> This looks great! Just a few comments:
>
> New bookmark: I would like a heading in the new bookmarks popup that
> says "You have created a new bookmark", "edit bookmark" or something
> like that.

I agree, but I also want to add: I find it a bit unintuitive at the

Jesper Kristensen

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Aug 24, 2007, 10:34:32 AM8/24/07
to
Thomas Stache skrev:

> Jesper Kristensen schrieb:
>> This looks great! Just a few comments:
>>
>> New bookmark: I would like a heading in the new bookmarks popup that
>> says "You have created a new bookmark", "edit bookmark" or something
>> like that.
>
> I agree, but I also want to add: I find it a bit unintuitive at the
> moment. The first time I encountered that UI in a nightly I was on a
> page already "starred". So when I clicked the yellow star I got the
> popup as a "bookmarks properties". I thought "ok, don't want to mess
> with that", and I wanted to cancel. Too late I noticed that this is not
> of the expected OK_CANCEL "message box" type, but an "OK_DELETEMYDATA"
> type.

Year, since it is not a normal dialog, it is not clear if "OK" means
"Close" or "Save changes" (or something else?)

Jesper Kristensen

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Aug 24, 2007, 11:32:47 AM8/24/07
to
Jesper Kristensen skrev:

> New bookmark: I would like a heading in the new bookmarks popup that
> says "You have created a new bookmark", "edit bookmark" or something
> like that. When I first tried the current trunk yesterday and clicked
> the star button in the location bar, I am not sure I would have figured
> out what had happened if I had not followed the discussions in this
> newsgroup.


In mockup format:
http://temp.jesperkristensen.dk/mozilla/add_bookmark.png

Axel Hecht

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Aug 24, 2007, 1:31:31 PM8/24/07
to

Overall, I like those.

I guess the google search thingie in the location bar changes the
privacy implications of it, but as it's supposed to be off in private
browsing mode, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to have a switch to turn
it off.
Not sure how prominently to expose that switch, though. I'm not dead
paranoid on this one, but I'd probably switch it off just because I'm
good with the search bar, and want the location bar to just show locations.
Would it make sense to have switches for all sections, so that users can
tune the categories to show?

It took me a few looks to actually find the category descriptors in the
shaded side field. Are there answers for both theming and a11y?

Other than that I'm golly happy that QA signed up to document how to
expose the UI in litmus testcases for l10n. That should make it less
troublesome to localize than it looks.

Axel

NirY...@gmail.com

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Aug 24, 2007, 5:24:43 PM8/24/07
to

[New here so I hope I'm not repeating what's been discussed already..]

How about integrating bookmarks/history search into the exisiting
search UI - the search field to the right of the location bar? Along
with Google/Amazon/Wikipedia/Etc search engines, there could be an
internal search mode (perhaps with a Firefox icon) - when a user will
select this, the search will be done on the history and bookmarks
data.

$0.02 ;)

- Nir

On Aug 24, 1:31 pm, Axel Hecht <l...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> Alex Faaborg wrote:
> > Here is the latest round of Places mockups
>
> > Bookmarks Sidebar:

> >http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_Bookma...
>
> > History Sidebar:
> >http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_Histor...
>
> > New Bookmark Dialog:
> >http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_NewBoo...
>
> > Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory):
> >http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_Unifyi...

Steffen Wilberg

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Aug 24, 2007, 5:49:46 PM8/24/07
to
Thomas Stache wrote:
> Sorry for being OT, but would it be possible to use a decent mail client
> for these messages full of links? Apple Mail always inserts line breaks,
> as seen here:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.firefox/browse_frm/thread/3b97116909cebef0/7a4917955e295604#7a4917955e295604>
>
> You're working at Mozilla, they have one: Thunderbird. ;-)

So let's try this with Thunderbird 2.0.0.7pre:

Shawn Wilsher

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Aug 24, 2007, 9:18:00 PM8/24/07
to
In article
<1187990683.4...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>"NirYariv@gmail.

com" <NirY...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [New here so I hope I'm not repeating what's been discussed
> already..]

> How about integrating bookmarks/history search into the exisiting
> search UI - the search field to the right of the location bar? Along
> with Google/Amazon/Wikipedia/Etc search engines, there could be an
> internal search mode (perhaps with a Firefox icon) - when a user

> willselect this, the search will be done on the history and bookmarks
> data.

> $0.02 ;)

> - Nir

I don't even think most users know that you can select something other
thanthe default search engine manager.

Cheers,

Shawn

--
I'm trying a new usenet client for Mac, Nemo OS X.
You can download it at http://www.malcom-mac.com/nemo

Alex Faaborg

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Aug 24, 2007, 9:45:38 PM8/24/07
to NirY...@gmail.com, dev-apps-firefox
Replying to a bunch of previous messages:

> [Nir] How about integrating bookmarks/history search into the
> exisiting
> search UI

If the search produced a locally generated page in the content area
containing the results, then I think this would be great. Right now
there are two distinctions between the location bar and search bar:

Location Bar
1) takes you directly to a page
2) searches against local content (history, bookmarks)

Search Bar
1) takes you to search results
2) uses an online engine

I personally don't care as much about the second distinction as much
as the first. In the case of adding direct links to Google results,
we break the second distinction in the other direction.

> [jesper] New bookmark: I would like a heading in the new bookmarks

> popup that
> says "You have created a new bookmark", "edit bookmark" or something
> like that.

Yeah, I'll add that in the next iteration.

> [jesper] location bar: What is the difference between "Locations"
> and "History"?

Locations is a match against the URL, and may contain both bookmarks
and history items. The Bookmarks and History sections are matches
against the title.

> [jesper] If Firefox by default is going to


> send each and every URL I type into the location bar to Google, I am
> going to find another browser. That is a privacy no-go for me.

Technically just the start of the URL if you choose one of the
results :) I was hoping that the addition of private browsing mode
would potentially allow us to do some of these more interesting
features that happen to have privacy implications. I would imagine a
lot of people will have the same sentiment though. Either way, that
mockup (in particular that part) was just exploratory, we haven't
even approached Google to see if they would like to work with us on
something like that.

I've got another idea that balances functionality with privacy that
I'll put in the next iteration, basically Google stays the last
section, with the choice "search google." When you hit the down
arrow to highlight this item, it triggers the search and gives you
direct links to the top results below, or you can hit enter on the
item to see the full results page.

> [jesper] Organizer: Is the sort order going to affect the bookmarks

> menu? In
> Firefox 2 some users complain that the bookmarks manager and the
> bookmarks menu show bookmarks in different order.

I'm not sure about technical implications, but yeah I think they
should be consistent.

> [Thomas] this is not


> of the expected OK_CANCEL "message box" type, but an
> "OK_DELETEMYDATA" type

The dialog actually saves changes as they occur, but Ok was tacked on
at the last minute because we were worried users wouldn't realize
they could click outside of the dialog to dismiss it. The next
iteration will have "[Remove]______[Ok][Cancel]" across the bottom.

> [Axel] but I'd probably switch it off just because I'm


> good with the search bar, and want the location bar to just show
> locations.

As good as one may be with the search bar, direct links to the top
three results has got to be faster (you don't have to move your hand
to the mouse, do a visual scan to find the first result, etc.)

Cheers,
-Alex

gr...@raizlabs.com

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Aug 25, 2007, 11:17:17 AM8/25/07
to
Regarding this mockup > placesSearch_i1UnifyingSearch.png

- I'm not sure users will understand the differences between the
history section and the location section. ( I don't understand it
either) Consider combining them.
- I'm not sure why you alternate the columns reading down... Seems
like you could do a column of URl's and a column of page names all the
way down rather then switching halfway. It'll make the list easier to
read quickly.
- Perhaps you can show more info in a tag result? How many pages does
it match? What pages, etc...
- You should show 'hit highlighting' in the results so you see what
part of what you typed matches what part of the dropdown.
- Along the left consider making the words "History" "Bookmarks" and
others into hyperlinks so you can get to those dialogs/panels/etc.


-Greg

Peter Lairo

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Aug 25, 2007, 8:29:20 PM8/25/07
to
Steffen Wilberg said on 24.08.2007 23:49:

> Thomas Stache wrote:
>> Sorry for being OT, but would it be possible to use a decent mail
>> client for these messages full of links?
>> You're working at Mozilla, they have one: Thunderbird. ;-)
I'll second that request/suggestion. ;-)

> So let's try this with Thunderbird 2.0.0.7pre:
>
> Bookmarks Sidebar:
> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png

It would be useful and consistent if the drop-down menu not only
displayed Bookmarks and History, but *all* items that brought up the
sidebar (i.e. everything listed in "View / Sidebar").

BTW: I suggested this way back in 2003:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=209642#c15

--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

The browser you can trust: www.GetFirefox.com
Reclaim Your Inbox: www.GetThunderbird.com

Israel - Myths & Facts: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/
Dangers of Islam (German): http://www.PoliticallyIncorrect.de/
Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://www.venganza.org/

Gervase Markham

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Aug 28, 2007, 6:48:17 AM8/28/07
to
Hi Alex,

Here are some thoughts :-)

> Bookmarks Sidebar:
> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png

"Advanced" should have an ellipsis, as it opens a dialog.

I'm not sure about the two buttons appearing only when the user starts
typing. This means the UI changes when they click the magnifying glass,
and then again when they start typing. What's the aim here?

If the sidebar only has a choice between Bookmarks and History, wouldn't
two tabs be more discoverable?

The "Folder" widget has a dropdown arrow, but then there's also an
expansion arrow/button to the right. What's the difference? Do we need both?

This dialog doesn't have a title or heading. Should it have one, to
explain what it's for? "Bookmark Page"? "Remember Place"?

The expansion button doesn't seem all that connected with the UI it
reveals. Also, isn't this the sort of place one usually uses a twisty?
Should the arrow change to a right or left-pointing one once the UI has
been expanded?

I'm not sure I like the idea of segregating the result types. Surely the
idea is to have a _unified_ search? If I type "foo" in my URL bar, the
thing I want should ideally (if the browser were reading my mind) be the
first option. However, if it's a Bookmark, then it's bound to be below
some matching Locations. Isn't it?

If the whole thing is an Organizer, what does the "Organize" dropdown
do? Why do we have these pseudo-menu dropdowns instead of real menus, as
in the rest of the app? Is this style cross-platform? Are there
accessibility issues?

I believe the Show Columns and Sort menu items are necessary because you
need to be able to do these things with a keyboard. Also, isn't there a
general UI principle that all actions should be possible using menus,
and then a subset from the toolbar?

> History:
> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerHistory_i5.png

Where is the "Delete column" mentioned in the text? Oh, I see. It needs
to be more obvious that this is what it is. The column needs a header,
at the very least. This is an on/off UI - how about checkboxes?

The column view needs to show more clearly the relationship between the
columns - perhaps by extending the Select highlight all the way to the
right, and adding a > sign at the end.

>
> Tags:
> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerTags_i5.png

Why is the "shape" of this column view different from that of the
History mockup? Is that intentional, or are you planning to standardise
on one or the other?

> Advanced Search:
> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerAdvancedSearch_i5.png

Are this UI and the similar UI in Thunderbird for searching going to be
made consistent?

Hope that's useful food for thought :-)

Gerv

Alex Faaborg

unread,
Aug 28, 2007, 8:12:47 AM8/28/07
to Gervase Markham, dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
>> Bookmarks Sidebar:
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png

> "Advanced" should have an ellipsis, as it opens a dialog.

yep

> I'm not sure about the two buttons appearing only when the user starts
> typing. This means the UI changes when they click the magnifying
> glass,
> and then again when they start typing. What's the aim here?

Aim was to reduce complexity of the default view. Personally I would
like to hide the search UI by default for bookmarks, but still have
it exposed for history.

> If the sidebar only has a choice between Bookmarks and History,
> wouldn't
> two tabs be more discoverable?

Discoverability and simplicity are in a never ending battle with each
other. In this case I think simplicity should win. The drop down
parallels the view drop-down right next to it in the history view,
and the two form a sort of sentence "history v by date v" (I'm going
to add "by" on the second drop down).

>> places_NewBookmarkDialog_i7.png

> The "Folder" widget has a dropdown arrow, but then there's also an
> expansion arrow/button to the right. What's the difference? Do we
> need both?

That's just for consistency with the current bookmarking UI in
firefox, We could try to improve it (is most recently used really
the way to go? do we really need two views?), but this might just
confuse our existing user base. Especially since we are adding tagging.

> This dialog doesn't have a title or heading. Should it have one, to
> explain what it's for? "Bookmark Page"? "Remember Place"?

It will have the heading "Page Bookmarked" in the next iteration.
Also, since the changes in this dialog are automatically applied, Ok
is going to be renamed Close, at least for M8.

>> Location Bar Autocomplete (exploratory):
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_UnifyingSearch_i1.png

> I'm not sure I like the idea of segregating the result types.
> Surely the
> idea is to have a _unified_ search? If I type "foo" in my URL bar, the
> thing I want should ideally (if the browser were reading my mind)
> be the
> first option.

It turns out mind reading isn't all that easy, and we are starting to
get feedback like these comments:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389491#c50
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389491#c53

Here are six reasons why I think this UI is better:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=393508#c4

>> Places Organizer:
>> Overall Window Layout:
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_OrganizerWindowLayout_i5.png

> If the whole thing is an Organizer, what does the "Organize" dropdown
> do?

Organizes :) scroll down in the mockup for the full menu, this is for
Vista consistency.

> Why do we have these pseudo-menu dropdowns instead of real menus, as
> in the rest of the app?

For platform consistency. Removing menus in the main window is out
of scope for Firefox 3, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't update the
rest of the UI when it is being worked on.

> Is this style cross-platform?

It is for Vista and OS X:

The Organize menu is essentially an analog of the gear in the
Finder. There are some semantic differences (Properties/Get Info,
Delete/Move to Trash), the items are in a different order, and a few
are missing on OS X (like cut). However, the contents of the menus
are otherwise largely the same.

On OS X we might want to swap the order of the View menu button and
the Organize "Gear" so that the View menu button is on the left. The
only remaining platform parity problem is that Views are in a drop
down menu instead of a line of radio-style button controls, but I
don't think this will be too big of a deal. The actual menu bar on
OS X will match the structure of the Organize and View menu buttons.

Once we make those minor changes, and throw in some leopard-style
monochrome icons and a unified toolbar, I think our mac users will be
rather happy. When I get time I'll post a round of Places mockups
for OS X.

> Are there accessibility issues?

No, keyboard bindings are remaining consistent, and the menus are
accessible with alt.

>> History:
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_OrganizerHistory_i5.png

> Where is the "Delete column" mentioned in the text? Oh, I see. It
> needs
> to be more obvious that this is what it is. The column needs a header,
> at the very least. This is an on/off UI - how about checkboxes?

Yeah, i was going to give it an icon header. It isn't really on off,
clicking the delete icon literally deletes the data.

> The column view needs to show more clearly the relationship between
> the
> columns - perhaps by extending the Select highlight all the way to the
> right, and adding a > sign at the end.

Yeah, that should work well.

>> Tags:
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/

>> places_OrganizerTags_i5.png
>
> Why is the "shape" of this column view different from that of the
> History mockup? Is that intentional, or are you planning to
> standardise
> on one or the other?

The history view will only have three columns: Time > Site > Pages

Tags could have n columns depending on how on much overlap you have
with your tags, and how far you want to refine. Each new column
filters the list below. This type of UI is called "Faceted Browsing."

In the history view we could move the pages below Time > Site, but I
think in general the three columns in order is more intuitive. It
just isn't feasible for tags because there is no way to know if the
user wants to continue to refine or not.

>> Advanced Search:
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/

>> places_OrganizerAdvancedSearch_i5.png
>>
>
> Are this UI and the similar UI in Thunderbird for searching going
> to be
> made consistent?

They are basically consistent. Pretty much the only additional
feature of the Thunderbird UI is the ability to set "match any of the
follow" or "match all of the follow" This is also an option in
Mail.app (yes, I use both applications). We might want to add this
to our advanced search in the Places Organizer as well. Thunderbird
doesn't have the scope bar, (instead it uses a tree view with check
boxes), so they may want to add that control once we build it.

I think thunderbird could also really benefit from the new text field
for entering tags being designed for Places.

Thanks for all the feedback!
-Alex


On Aug 28, 2007, at 3:48 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:

> Hi Alex,
>
> Here are some thoughts :-)
>
>> Bookmarks Sidebar:
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png
>
> "Advanced" should have an ellipsis, as it opens a dialog.
>
> I'm not sure about the two buttons appearing only when the user starts
> typing. This means the UI changes when they click the magnifying
> glass,
> and then again when they start typing. What's the aim here?
>
> If the sidebar only has a choice between Bookmarks and History,
> wouldn't
> two tabs be more discoverable?
>
>> History Sidebar:

>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_HistorySidebar_i2.png
>>
>> New Bookmark Dialog:
>> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/
>> places_NewBookmarkDialog_i7.png
>

J M R

unread,
Aug 28, 2007, 1:59:10 PM8/28/07
to
Alex Faaborg wrote:

> Here is the latest round of Places mockups
>

Horrible. My first impression looking at the mockup was apprehension.
Using it turn into horror.

First, the mockups:

The first one
Mouse centric; small box, perhaps unresizable; no description field;
slow (as in adding the bookmark, the description and the tags, ie the
flow would be slow and cumbersome).

The second one
The expanded list of tags, all tags. Even using only a small number of
tags this will not provide an optimum way of entering tags.
Click/Scroll. Not a chance!

Using it:
clicking on it adds a star (I expect that it would brought up the dialog
box, but no, only stars it);
clicking again the dialog box is shown (I was expecting that it would
unstar it);
clicking on an arrow next to the tag field shows a bigger field (the
description field perhaps? It isn't obvious)
the dialog box is small and isn't resizable;
there isn't autocomplete for tags!? perhaps isn't implemented yet;

Using the keyboard
automatically adds the star and shows the dialog box, this is better;
all previous criticism apply.
Using Esc doesn't make it go away.
Selecting some text should put the text in the description field
automatically, if there is one.

Oh, by the way, right clicking crashes the browser (using v3 build
2007082805)

There is already that accomplishes this in a simple and efficient way:
del.icio.us Bookmarks, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3615

You should perhaps look at it.

>
> Tags:
> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_OrganizerTags_i5.png

A sensible approach to tag browsing. Similar to the iTunes. Good work.
Is there any way to add more columns in the bottom mockup?

I hope that you consider some of my views in your next mockups.

Thank you.

Hasse

unread,
Aug 28, 2007, 1:59:55 PM8/28/07
to
In article <u8mdnZvJrNzuYE7b...@mozilla.org>, Gervase Markham wrote...

> Hi Alex,
>
> Here are some thoughts :-)
>
> > Bookmarks Sidebar:
> > http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/places_BookmarksSidebar_i2.png
>
> "Advanced" should have an ellipsis, as it opens a dialog.

Not according to Microsoft's recommendations.
From http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511453.aspx#ellipses

----quote----
This doesn't mean you should use an ellipsis whenever an action
displays another window?only when additional information is required
to perform the action. Consequently, any command button whose implied
verb is show another window doesn't take an ellipsis, such as with
the commands About, Advanced, Help (or any other command linking to
a Help topic), Options, Properties, or Settings.
----end quote----

Of course we already have ellipses on a large number of similar
buttons and menu items that shouldn't have one, so perhaps it is
better to follow our own convention.

--
Hasse

Gervase Markham

unread,
Aug 29, 2007, 10:22:17 AM8/29/07
to
Alex Faaborg wrote:
> Aim was to reduce complexity of the default view. Personally I would
> like to hide the search UI by default for bookmarks, but still have it
> exposed for history.

Well, let's try it, but I think it might be jarring.

> Discoverability and simplicity are in a never ending battle with each
> other. In this case I think simplicity should win. The drop down
> parallels the view drop-down right next to it in the history view, and
> the two form a sort of sentence "history v by date v" (I'm going to add
> "by" on the second drop down).

The fact that the current trend is not to outline buttons unless they
are hovered really doesn't help.

> Here are six reasons why I think this UI is better:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=393508#c4

Can we have a key to skip to the next section? E.g. Shift-Down?

> Organizes :) scroll down in the mockup for the full menu, this is for
> Vista consistency.

But most people are still on XP. Will we be getting this _only_ on Vista?

> For platform consistency. Removing menus in the main window is out of
> scope for Firefox 3, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't update the rest
> of the UI when it is being worked on.

Apart from the fact that it leaves things inconsistent.

> The history view will only have three columns: Time > Site > Pages
>
> Tags could have n columns depending on how on much overlap you have with
> your tags, and how far you want to refine. Each new column filters the
> list below. This type of UI is called "Faceted Browsing."
>
> In the history view we could move the pages below Time > Site, but I
> think in general the three columns in order is more intuitive. It just
> isn't feasible for tags because there is no way to know if the user
> wants to continue to refine or not.

Can't we scroll the earlier columns off to the left? Or shrink the
leftmost ones as you continue to refine?

I just feel we should eliminate the inconsistency if we can.

Gerv

Alex Faaborg

unread,
Aug 29, 2007, 4:28:12 PM8/29/07
to Gervase Markham, dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> But most people are still on XP. Will we be getting this _only_ on
> Vista?

I'm pretty sure by the end of Firefox 3's life we should be 50% Vista
(does anyone else know what the expected breakdown is based on
current trends?). We can provide a different UI on XP, but given
that the bookmarks organizer isn't that commonly used, I'm not sure
it is worth the extra effort.

> Apart from the fact that it leaves things inconsistent.

Since the main browser window and the places organizer serve
completely different purposes, I don't think UI inconsistency will be
a major detriment to usability.

> Can't we scroll the earlier columns off to the left? Or shrink the
> leftmost ones as you continue to refine?

The plan is to scroll the earlier columns off to the left. The issue
is new columns appearing on the right will contain more tags that you
can refine by, instead of the list of matching bookmarks.

> I just feel we should eliminate the inconsistency if we can.

We could eliminate the inconsistency by changing the display of the
history view, but I think the three column layout is overall more
intuitive.

-Alex

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