firefox with p2p search engine YACY dropping google
thoma...@gmx.net
there is since May 2005 a new p2p search engine out, called YACY, (speek Jacky like Blacky.)
which is going to drop central-google-search.
Every peer is indexing the browsing sites and over a DHT the search is working.
It is written in Java.
A Firefox Toolbar extension is available, see the links..
The question is now, if Firefox Developers can integrate the yacy Installer into the firefox Installer and drop all search engines and make only the yacy p2p search engine availabel with the next release of firefox,
Thanks see the links:
Test-Search
http://www.suma-lab.de:8080/
Project page
http://sourceforge.net/projects/yacy/
http://www.yacy.net/yacy/
http://www.yacy-websuche.de/
TOOLBAR-FIREFOX
http://yacy-websuche.de/index.php/yacybar.html
FORUM
http://sourceforge.net/forum/?group_id=116142
http://www.yacy-forum.de/viewforum.php?f=10
WIKIPEDIA
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacy
--
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Thomas Stache
> The question is now, if Firefox Developers can integrate the yacy Installer into the firefox Installer and drop all search engines and make only the yacy p2p search engine availabel with the next release of firefox,
>
Yeah that is a nice idea!
(You must be kidding!)
Omega X
> Hi
>
> there is since May 2005 a new p2p search engine out, called YACY, (speek Jacky like Blacky.)
> which is going to drop central-google-search.
>
> Every peer is indexing the browsing sites and over a DHT the search is working.
> It is written in Java.
>
> A Firefox Toolbar extension is available, see the links..
>
> The question is now, if Firefox Developers can integrate the yacy Installer into the firefox Installer and drop all search engines and make only the yacy p2p search engine availabel with the next release of firefox,
>
> Thanks see the links:
>
>
> Test-Search
> http://www.suma-lab.de:8080/
>
> Project page
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/yacy/
> http://www.yacy.net/yacy/
> http://www.yacy-websuche.de/
>
> TOOLBAR-FIREFOX
> http://yacy-websuche.de/index.php/yacybar.html
>
> FORUM
> http://sourceforge.net/forum/?group_id=116142
> http://www.yacy-forum.de/viewforum.php?f=10
>
> WIKIPEDIA
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacy
Not happening. For a whole bunch of reasons.
Kevin Brosnan
Mozilla Trademark Policy. This would likely fall under the following
section.
Serious Modifications
Those taking full advantage of the open-source nature of Mozilla's
products and making significant functional changes may not
redistribute the fruits of their labor under any Mozilla trademark.
For example, it would be inappropriate for them to say "based on
Mozilla Firefox". Instead, in the interest of complete accuracy, they
should describe their executables as "based on Mozilla technology", or
"incorporating Mozilla source code." They should also change the name
of the executable so as to reduce the chance that a user of the
modified software will be misled into believing it to be a native
Mozilla product.
http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html
Kevin Brosnan
On 19 May 2006 12:55:40 -0700, sairamna...@gmail.com
<sairamna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Allow me Guys.
>
> Mozilla makes 90 % of revenue from those search engines. Us Geeks would
> never allow if you take away our Comic Book Search.
>
> But Thomasa can I suggest something, Compile a custom version of
> firefox and do whatever you want, and start distributing this copy of
> Firefox to your clients/users etc.
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox
>
Axel Hecht
> Hi
>
> there is since May 2005 a new p2p search engine out, called YACY,
> (speek Jacky like Blacky.) which is going to drop
> central-google-search.
>
> Every peer is indexing the browsing sites and over a DHT the search
> is working. It is written in Java.
>
> A Firefox Toolbar extension is available, see the links..
>
> The question is now, if Firefox Developers can integrate the yacy
> Installer into the firefox Installer and drop all search engines and
> make only the yacy p2p search engine availabel with the next release
> of firefox,
>
The short answer is "not happening", but here a bit of my personal
reasoning.
- The requirement of java. This is the first and foremost blocker.
- UI concerns. The only existing intergration I found was a toolbar,
that's too much screen estate.
- Resources. Firefox should run on low-end machines with low
connectivity, running a search indexer over a modem is a bad idea.
- P2P. Bad for customers with volume-based internet
- Licensing. yacy is gpl only, mozilla code needs to be compatible with
triple licensing.
Those items go against a default integration of yacy in Firefox, as far
as I'm concerned. With respect to dropping all search engines in favour
of this one, most definitly not. That would mean to seriously vote
against competition on the search engine market and technology in favour
of one.
Axel
thoma...@gmx.net
a toolbar is very simple to use and and a search indexing is as well in a modus possible, where only one bwosed pages is indexed.
Fetching a url needs not more bandwidth to share the DHT, as well on modems. p2p DHT needs not more resources than browsing sites.. this is capable. With an agreement you could integrate the installer, this does not need any licensce change.
Well, what about this suggestion to include the link in the booksmarks for the yacy toolbar, or-- to integrate the toolbar, which then has buttons for downloading yacy or the java isntaller.
Yacy toolbar could be used as well without yacy running, there is an remote indexing as well. so no concern for bandwith for modem users.
If there is some interest, so please add at least the link to the toolbar to the google search menue.
So... just a link in firefox to yacy, it is an innovative concept, which really should be honoured.
You know, firefox has grown up to fight explorer/mircosoft, and yacy wants to be a different concept to central google. Google and microsoft make no difference today, and firefox could help yacy by a p2p search concept.
Bring the power back to the users, this made firefox growing and big !
yacy needs the power of the users and the installation and bandwidth concerns could be handled, if there is some goodwill..
Don´t you see googles censorship in china? This is not the way we want internet... but maybe Firefox is too big now to see and to have a look at its own growing and philosophy...
thanks.
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Von: Axel Hecht <ax...@pike.org>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox
--
aconbere
thoma...@gmx.net wrote:
> Java is on most every machine. maybe open source soon..
> a toolbar is very simple to use and and a search indexing is as well in a modus possible, where only one bwosed pages is indexed.
> Fetching a url needs not more bandwidth to share the DHT, as well on modems. p2p DHT needs not more resources than browsing sites.. this is capable. With an agreement you could integrate the installer, this does not need any licensce change.
> Well, what about this suggestion to include the link in the booksmarks for the yacy toolbar, or-- to integrate the toolbar, which then has buttons for downloading yacy or the java isntaller.
> Yacy toolbar could be used as well without yacy running, there is an remote indexing as well. so no concern for bandwith for modem users.
> If there is some interest, so please add at least the link to the toolbar to the google search menue.
> So... just a link in firefox to yacy, it is an innovative concept, which really should be honoured.
> You know, firefox has grown up to fight explorer/mircosoft, and yacy wants to be a different concept to central google. Google and microsoft make no difference today, and firefox could help yacy by a p2p search concept.
> Bring the power back to the users, this made firefox growing and big !
> yacy needs the power of the users and the installation and bandwidth concerns could be handled, if there is some goodwill..
> Don´t you see googles censorship in china? This is not the way we want internet... but maybe Firefox is too big now to see and to have a look at its own growing and philosophy...
>
Like most projects I think it's safe to assume that firefox (mozilla)
is bound more by logistical constraints at this point than
philosophical ones. And at this point Yacy is simply not prepared to
be the default search engine for firefox, it's not mature enough, it's
user base isn't large enough, etc. It just isn't going to fly with the
users. We've long gone by the 10% / 90% rule if 90% of people aren't
going to want it / use it, then it's not worth being a dominant part of
the project.
This doesn't mean that the people who work her aren't aligned with the
philosophy of a free and open Internet non-constrained by search
censorship. It only means that there currently isn't a way to make a
free and open browser that can hold market share and merge this idea as
a default option.
This is precisely where the power of the FOSS licenses of Firefox, and
it's extendability come into play. Mozilla can not distribute Firefox
with yacy as the default or only search in the toolbar for logistical
reasons, but that doesn't mean that yacy can't be used by users as an
extension to firefox or in rebuilt binaries in a community release of
firefox.
thoma...@gmx.net
10.000 yacy nodes will handle google.
this is the egg and chicken problem..
no one said to drop all others, but to have a yacy peer running additionally with each firefox would be possible in a distribution option.
personally I installed firefox to fight microsoft.
Seeing firefox now established and arrogant not helping small p2p monopolist fighters, I believe I will install opera instead...
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: firefox with p2p search engine YACY
Axel Hecht
> one distribution with firefox and it is working, 10.000 yacy nodes
> will handle google.
This is a really bold statement. google for one is constantly improving
on their search algorithms. You're invited to enter, but we're not going
to jump on some wagon just because it sounds cool. Esp not in a
"installed per default" scenario.
> this is the egg and chicken problem.. no one said to drop all others,
You did. Mind reading your original post again, 'cause I did a bunch of
times to make sure you did.
> but to have a yacy peer running additionally with each firefox would
> be possible in a distribution option. personally I installed firefox
> to fight microsoft. Seeing firefox now established and arrogant not
> helping small p2p monopolist fighters, I believe I will install opera
> instead...
>
I personally deny the existence of fights and browser wars. I haven't
seen any chopped of legs or ripped-into-pieces corpses due to browsers.
If you feel that Opera is a good way for you to go, feel happy to do so.
And advocate for your software with them.
Regarding other problems you mentioned, China in particular. Do you
really think that the Chinese government would allow the import of a p2p
search engine (or a browser having it on per default) if that would pose
a problem for their cencorship? The solution to the obvious political
problems in China are political problems, not technical ones. You can
stop wearing clothes just as well as stop driving cars (and even wearing
shoes) if you want to boycott every industry that sold out to the big red.
Nobody is keeping you from shipping an extension that integrates nicely
into the UI (Note, if you're against google, why do you follow their UI
design to expose search in an extra toolbar?).
Regarding java, "almost everybody has it" is just a plain nono, we have
bigger fish to fry, for example with internationalization issues, which
we have to deal with ourselves because we can't rely on a few MS libs
that almost everybody has (uniscribe).
Mozilla is about choise and innovation on the internet, and I'm
perfectly fine with you working on the same goal. And Mozilla will
surely think about supporting technologies in the area, but we will
surely not just give in to some one bad-mouthing us, and that is not
taking technical and UI decisions as that, but as arrogance and
counter-innovation. We're really not that, we're about realistic
improvements and user experience. Both of which you don't provide at the
moment.
Note that, in terms of innovation and spreading technology on the
internet, you haven't addressed the licensing concerns that I raised.
Axel, who doesn't like people mailing him randomly, too.
thoma...@gmx.net
Betreff: Re: firefox with p2p search engine YACY
> You're invited to enter, but we're not going
> to jump on some wagon just because it sounds cool. Esp not in a
> "installed per default" scenario.
The post was to show you the links and existence to yacy, no one expected a 1:1 transfer. So why should a default url link not possible ..
> You did.
Yesit was pointed out to get attention, this was just an option to dicsuss.. yacy will never fight google... but it is worth to get your /firefox´s support , cause it is p2p and user democratic.
> The solution to the obvious political
> problems in China are political problems, not technical ones.
I appreciate Google and Yahoo in China - even with censorship ! Because internet is unstoppable and the info will switch over many ways.. so in 10 years google on earth will be out of the pioneer phase and china has developed and then it is much easier to switch to wolrwide settings of google. But why not speeding up with p2p. It is only a technical support we need.
> we have
> bigger fish to fry, for example with internationalization issues, which
> we have to deal with ourselves because we can't rely on a few MS libs
> that almost everybody has (uniscribe).
This shows that developed systems once look only on its own.. See firefox in earely stage... here we had much more flexibility than now. the pioneer ghost and motivation has gone...
> we're about realistic improvements and user experience.
a p2p search engine is a revolution ! and user get - as usual in p2p networks - only experiences with other users using the same.
>
> the licensing concerns that I raised.
mh.. i have not an overview of what you all need. If you distribute the installer of yacy witht he installer of firefox this GPL should be enough, to integrate the code you may need more, but if you mail the developers of cacy for a installer distribution or to ask them to add a link to firefox for the toolbar, then this would all be possible in my eyes.
Well.. if not. then not, wanted just to tell you about the option and link. Its you decision and maybe someone can see the point and play some minutes around with yacy, it just impressed me and think it is worth to support it.
So how ?.. you can discuss.. to find a way, which suits for you..
kind regards.
pascal chevrel
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Betreff: Re: firefox with p2p search engine YACY
> Von: Axel Hecht <ax...@pike.org>
>
> a p2p search engine is a revolution ! and user get - as usual in p2p networks - only experiences with other users using the same.
>
I tried your search engine and :
- it is very slow
- it is totally inacurate, none of the search I tried gave me something
even remotely related to my search terms, just search for "mozilla
europe" in google then on Yacy to see what I mean
- it yielded no result at all for basic requests in my language
- it has severe charset display problems
- it is not localized in my language nor in any other language but English
- it is ugly
I expect from a search engines to find information for me and to show
this information in a way that is useful to me, the fact that it is p2p
technology or more traditional technology is irrelevant if it does not
provide the basic services it is supposed to provide.
If the search results depends on the number of people using it, just
make it an extension, promote it and come back when you have a working
tool, but even with good results, you would have to provide the same
quality of service as Google which means a clear, localized and easy to
use page results which is not the case at all.
There are lots of cool search engine projects, currently Exalead is
probably the best and most accurate search engine I know, it does
provide lots of cool stuff that neither Google nor Yacy provide,
nevertheless I wouldn't ask for exalead to become the default search
engine because I realize that most people just want google or a Google
like, yacy is too short on features and exalead is overkill (it would be
a cool choice for flock I think, same "future of the web" philosophy).
Pascal
thoma...@gmx.net
exalead is one of the partners of quaero, but exalead is USA as well!!
So.. the balance of google for europe is not exalead nor quearo,
it could be p2p, and consider, that you get google like results with yacy, if there are 25.000-50.000 nodes using it. We have the same goal, a google like yacy, but wie get it only with a default installer with firefox.
yacy has 100 nodes online, the potentials are, that this are a lot of libraries and big bipes nodes. This has potentials !! Other bibliotheques will follow after a firefox cooperation press announcement.
The method of yacy should be judged and not the goal to be like google to be involved in a cooperation with firefox. And yacy is relally advanced programmed. It only needs users.
yacy + firefoy = quality of google.
not: if yacy = quality of google, then cooperation with firefox.
see the difference ? If firefox would not exist, I would say, yacy needs a browser! See 100 Million chinese people using firefox with yacy.. we do not have any google & yahoo censorship discussion anymore!!!
Only to think this way of cooperation makes me impressed. To free one nation is so easy, to let them read and search bbc.news and a lot of blogs about justice for democrats, which are throughn in prision atm in china.
For firexox it is just a click in the installer, for the mankind just one strep to free 100 Million users in china.
Well I see the concerns you have from GPL to bad results atm. And you have to integrate this if possible, just wanted to give you the link.
Maybe have a look at it in the next few months and give the extension a default link, better a button, in firefox.
thanks
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:45:55 +0200
> Von: pascal chevrel <pascal....@free.fr>
> An: dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> _______________________________________________
> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox
--
pascal chevrel
> yes, if the measure is a central search engine.
> exalead is one of the partners of quaero, but exalead is USA as well!!
> So.. the balance of google for europe is not exalead nor quearo,
Exalead is a French company, Firefox is international.
Pascal
thoma...@gmx.net
yes, there is exalead INC in USA and there are Exalead France and Italy as a dependance. The INC is in USA, not in France. Well ok, Management comes from Paris Highschools and may be working in France, but the internet presentations exa-"leads" to USA first.
regards
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:38:00 +0200
> Von: pascal chevrel <pascal....@free.fr>
> An: dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> Betreff: Re: firefox with p2p search engine YACY
>
none
> http://corporate.exalead.com/enterprise/l=en?p=societe_implantations
>
> yes, there is exalead INC in USA and there are Exalead France and Italy as a dependance. The INC is in USA, not in France. Well ok, Management comes from Paris Highschools and may be working in France, but
> the internet presentations exa-"leads" to USA first.
> regards
Exalead France is the main company and the US and IT offices are
*subsidiaries*, clearly stated in the presentation of the company which
BTW belongs mostly to SCA Qualis, a big European technology investor.
# 40 employees
# 2 subsidiaries (Italy and USA).
Not that it matters that much when it comes to search engine choice, but
if I were to choose a good European search engine to replace google, I
would choose Exalead over Yacy without any hesitation. It's accurate,
it's fast, it's in my language. Three qualities Yacy doesn't have and
even if you solve the problem of accuracy building it with Firefox and
gaining thus millions of p2p yacy users, it wouldn't make Yacy faster,
localized and it xouldn't bring any additional value for the end-user.
Pascal
thoma...@gmx.net
> Datum: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:49:36 +0200
> Von: none <@lists.mozilla.org, pascalc"@>
> I would choose Exalead over Yacy without any hesitation. It's accurate,
> it's fast, it's in my language.
> millions of p2p yacy users, it wouldn't make Yacy faster,
> localized and it xouldn't bring any additional value for the end-user.
Right, me too, exalead is quite good. I mailed just a minute ago to the management of exalead to make a cooperation with YaCY to provide either a p2p tool branded "exalead-yacy" or to run a yacy node with the database of exalead.
For Firefox: Exalead is exact, if 50.000 yacy DHT nodes are as exact as exalead has to be prooven right. As yacy uses java lucene search this is as accurate as google. The localized language is not a problem as you only need button to press the keywordsearch. Localized means global.
Additional value for the end user: this is atm just philosophy to run a p2p independent democratic search engine. I thought to be in the right frame at firefox, because this made firefox big, to be in opposite to the explorer of microsoft... So why the approach to exeed the users expectations? we just need to get a step into the door for a new method: p2p search engines... then we can improve..
so the added value is for theuser the philosophy, not the technical questions, they can be solved... lucene is quite good.