Potential London topics and projects

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Mike Taylor

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Mar 23, 2016, 11:37:48 AM3/23/16
to compatibility
With the London all-hands approaching, let's brainstorm some things we'd
like to discuss as a team, or across teams.

Feel free to reply to this thread with ideas and we can put them in the
wiki when the thread dies down.

Discussion topics:

* Measuring compatibility (and progress)
* Structured Triage (bugzilla and webcompat.com)
* webcompat.com development conventions -- what works and what can be
improved
* Training contributors to triage and do outreach

Hack projects:

* Moving bug stage labels to milestones for webcompat.com

--
Mike Taylor
Web Compat, Mozilla

Jet Villegas

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Mar 23, 2016, 12:21:53 PM3/23/16
to Mike Taylor, compatibility
I'd like to have a discussion on the impact that our compatibility work
(e.g., -webkit prefixes) has on practical Web authoring.

My questions:
* Are Web Designers already authoring *only* for Webkit/Blink today?
* How should this affect our choices re: Web standards to adopt/reject?
* How can we help authors "do the right thing?"

Thanks,

--Jet
> _______________________________________________
> compatibility mailing list
> compat...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/compatibility
>

Mike Taylor

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Mar 24, 2016, 11:42:02 AM3/24/16
to j...@mozilla.com, dev...@lists.mozilla.org, Mozilla Developer Relations, compatibility
On 3/23/16 11:15 AM, Jet Villegas wrote:
> I'd like to have a discussion on the impact that our compatibility work
> (e.g., -webkit prefixes) has on practical Web authoring.
>
> My questions:
> * Are Web Designers already authoring *only* for Webkit/Blink today?
> * How should this affect our choices re: Web standards to adopt/reject?
> * How can we help authors "do the right thing?"

Yeah, I'd like to have this discussion in London too. Ideally we can get
participation from DevRel and MDN teams -- I think they're part of the
equation here. (cc'ing hopefully the right lists to put it on their radars).

Jeremie Patonnier

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Mar 24, 2016, 12:33:59 PM3/24/16
to Mike Taylor, dev-mdc, Mozilla Developer Relations, compatibility, j...@mozilla.com
Hi,

As part of the MDN team I'm very interrested with the topics raised by Jet.

As information provider, MDN is always looking for information that worth
carrying over our documentation

So from the MDN team point of view we wish to have the opportunity to
discuss with you a way to get information "from the battlefield" on a
regular basis.

MDN doc prioritization work would benefits from regular update about:

- What are the most common web compat issues ?
- What information is missing to web dev to solve such issues ?
- What kind of arguments is provided to NOT fix a compatibility issue ?
(And do you already have answers to those arguments?)

In many case MDN is at the beginning of the chain of value for web
developers, so if we are able to provide answer to the most common feedback
the compat team has, it is a good opportunity to build a virtuous circle :)

MDN as also an ongoing question regarding the data about browser
compatibility available on MDN. We wish to do better with them but we need
help and support from the others Mozilla team so we would also love to
discuss this with you all.

I look forward to see you all in London :)

Best,
--
Jeremie
.............................
( ̄(エ) ̄)ノ MDN Wild Bear
Web : https://developer.mozilla.org
Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>

Jason Weathersby

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Mar 24, 2016, 1:04:57 PM3/24/16
to Mike Taylor, dev...@lists.mozilla.org, Mozilla Developer Relations, compatibility, Jethro Villegas
Mike

Can we get a schedule time for everyone to discuss?

Jason

Hallvord Reiar Michaelsen Steen

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Mar 24, 2016, 3:48:33 PM3/24/16
to compatibility, Jethro Villegas
General observation: two years ago we had big "classes" of compat
issues (UA sniffing for FxOS, -webkit- prefixes for mobile content
generally). Subsequent development sorted out much of those problems -
today issues tend to be more specific and detailed, and less easy to
classify into big piles or find by automated tools. I'm still
interested in how we can push the Compatipede tool forward and make it
useful also to guarantee against compat *regressions*, particularly
when we want to test the waters with new features such as ES-future or
new CSS.

Some things that would be interesting to me on the automation frontier
to work on in London:

* Compatipede-2 plug-ins: the ones we have (demo), how to write them (workshop)

* Looking at the DOM, HTTP, CSS and JS: what are interesting data
points to record for comparison and tracking over time? (Discussion -
good to do before that workshop - we'd write plug-ins to track new
data points).

* Matching/diffing error messages from Gecko and WebKit - can we write
some code that can give us a meaningful diff and tell us what errors
happened in engine A but not in B? (new Compatipede analysis module?)

* What should our approach be to automating *interactivity* for
automated tests, such as automated log-in? (discussion, hack session)

* We can create some spin-off statistics for purposes that are not
strictly compat but "nearby" like memory usage. How, and what's
important? Memory usage? Can we measure jank? Scroll performance?

* Explore working on the proposed WebExtensions-based Firefox/Chrome
add-on to control the browser on behalf of Compatipede, to move off
SlimerJS and Phantom (there's some initial code somewhere on GitHub -
a Boar branch I think)

* Should we aim for testing on real devices? If yes, how do we bridge
the gap between Compatipede and the Firefox instance on the device?
Marionette (whenever it comes to Fennec..)? WebExtensions (whenever it
comes to Fennec..)? Nodejs-Marionette (testing on FxOS devices)? A
custom-written devtools protocol client? Something else?

Other things (non-Compatipede):

* Usability testing of our various "report a site problem" features
(aiming to streamline as much as possible). I suggest we list or set
up couple of pages that have known bugs/brokenness, and challenge
random all-hands participants to load URLs and report the problems,
then observe them using either extensions, the firefox:input feature
or the webcompat.com form.

* Better filtering UI on webcompat.com is very important.. I'll keep
nagging about https://github.com/webcompat/webcompat.com/issues/795
until we get it right.

* Devtools JS debugger QA - how can we contribute more, since we
probably use this tool more intensively than most?


On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Mike Taylor <mi...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> With the London all-hands approaching, let's brainstorm some things we'd
> like to discuss as a team, or across teams.
>
> Feel free to reply to this thread with ideas and we can put them in the wiki
> when the thread dies down.
>
> Discussion topics:
>
> * Measuring compatibility (and progress)
> * Structured Triage (bugzilla and webcompat.com)
> * webcompat.com development conventions -- what works and what can be
> improved
> * Training contributors to triage and do outreach
>
> Hack projects:
>
> * Moving bug stage labels to milestones for webcompat.com
>
> --
> Mike Taylor
> Web Compat, Mozilla

Eric Shepherd

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Mar 24, 2016, 4:35:43 PM3/24/16
to Jeremie Patonnier, dev-mdc, Mozilla Developer Relations, compatibility, Mike Taylor, j...@mozilla.com
Yes, and it's worth adding that we don't limit our content to just stuff
supported by or implemented in Firefox. We document both standard
features only implemented in other browsers and at times even
non-standard features that are of particular importance.



> As information provider, MDN is always looking for information that worth
> carrying over our documentation
>
> So from the MDN team point of view we wish to have the opportunity to
> discuss with you a way to get information "from the battlefield" on a
> regular basis.
>
> MDN doc prioritization work would benefits from regular update about:
>
> - What are the most common web compat issues ?
> - What information is missing to web dev to solve such issues ?
> - What kind of arguments is provided to NOT fix a compatibility issue ?
> (And do you already have answers to those arguments?)
>
> In many case MDN is at the beginning of the chain of value for web
> developers, so if we are able to provide answer to the most common feedback
> the compat team has, it is a good opportunity to build a virtuous circle :)
>
> MDN as also an ongoing question regarding the data about browser
> compatibility available on MDN. We wish to do better with them but we need
> help and support from the others Mozilla team so we would also love to
> discuss this with you all.

--

Eric Shepherd
Senior Technical Writer
Mozilla Developer Network <https://developer.mozilla.org/>
Blog: https://www.bitstampede.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/sheppy
Doodle: http://doodle.com/the.sheppy

Karl Dubost

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Mar 24, 2016, 8:09:09 PM3/24/16
to Mike Taylor, compatibility

Le 24 mars 2016 à 00:37, Mike Taylor <mi...@mozilla.com> a écrit :
> With the London all-hands approaching, let's brainstorm
[…]

Created https://wiki.mozilla.org/Compatibility/Mobile/2016-06-work-week

> Discussion topics:

* Useful warning/error messages in the console.

If you compare the Chrome/Safari/Firefox devtools, you may notice some differences in the treatment of warning/error messages in the console. The messages are often on the tone of this is wrong, but not that much on how to fix it, except for a couple. In the CSS world, it's often common for people to add plenty of vendor prefixes and these are reported as warnings such as

Expected media feature name but found '-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio'.
Expected media feature name but found '-moz-min-device-pixel-ratio'.
Something more like a lint flag with URIs to how to fix the mistakes.

* Review the backlog of issues we have. I like this sorting.
https://github.com/webcompat/webcompat.com/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-asc

* Documentation for new coding contributors on webcompat.com

* Is there such a thing as removing support for -webkit-blah in Gecko when we notice that it's not necessary anymore? When do we think/how do we find out it will not be necessary anymore.

* Better human organization in the webcompat for dealing with the issues on webcompat. Part process, part tooling.
- Triage queue aka incoming bugs.
- Uncompleted analysis
- Issues in limbo for too long
- Sitewait not being revived.

* Firefox Android UA override infrastructure, policy. aka `-webkit-` will sometimes only work in combination with UA override. Fix first then contact, Fix and not contact, etc?

* New hire(s). Meeting time for webcompat.



--
Karl Dubost, Mozilla
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/moz

Jeremie Patonnier

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Mar 25, 2016, 6:28:04 AM3/25/16
to Karl Dubost, compatibility, Mike Taylor, Florian Scholz
Hi!

2016-03-25 1:08 GMT+01:00 Karl Dubost <kdu...@mozilla.com>:

> * Useful warning/error messages in the console.
>
> If you compare the Chrome/Safari/Firefox devtools, you may notice some
> differences in the treatment of warning/error messages in the console. The
> messages are often on the tone of this is wrong, but not that much on how
> to fix it, except for a couple. In the CSS world, it's often common for
> people to add plenty of vendor prefixes and these are reported as warnings
> such as
>
> Expected media feature name but found
> '-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio'.
> Expected media feature name but found
> '-moz-min-device-pixel-ratio'.
> Something more like a lint flag with URIs to how to fix the mistakes.
>

FWIW, Florian Scholz from the MDN team is working with the DevTools team to
enhance JS error messages and make them more usable and understandable. If
this prove to be successful, this could be extended to CSS messages and so
forth.

I CC him here as he would be interested into helping with that discussion :)

Best,
--
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>

Lawrence Mandel

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Mar 27, 2016, 8:11:16 PM3/27/16
to Mike Taylor, compatibility
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Mike Taylor <mi...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> With the London all-hands approaching, let's brainstorm some things we'd
> like to discuss as a team, or across teams.
>
> Feel free to reply to this thread with ideas and we can put them in the
> wiki when the thread dies down.
>
> Discussion topics:
>
> * Measuring compatibility (and progress)
>

We've talked on and off about getting better web compat data to use for
release criteria. How can we detect web regressions due to changes in
Gecko? How can we detect new Gecko specific issues due to site changes? How
do we quantify this in a way that helps us focus on fixing these problems
before we release?

Lawrence

Karl Dubost

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Apr 12, 2016, 2:16:43 AM4/12/16
to Mike Taylor, Jet Villegas, compatibility, Jeremie Patonnier, Hallvord R. M. Steen, Lawrence Mandel
Hallvord, Jeremie, Jet, Lawrence, Mike,

Le 24 mars 2016 à 00:37, Mike Taylor <mi...@mozilla.com> a écrit :
> With the London all-hands approaching, let's brainstorm some things we'd like to discuss as a team, or across teams.


I have added all your agenda ideas on the wiki.
Please review if everything has been transcribed correctly.
Please add comments to the wiki to explain when it's not clear out of context.
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Compatibility/Mobile/2016-06-work-week#toc

Also if you think there is a better time for you to work on these items/ put it under the item you want to discuss.

Thanks.

Mike Taylor

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Apr 12, 2016, 2:58:05 PM4/12/16
to Karl Dubost, Jet Villegas, compatibility, Jeremie Patonnier, Hallvord R. M. Steen, Lawrence Mandel
On 4/12/16 1:16 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
> Also if you think there is a better time for you to work on these items/ put it under the item you want to discuss.

Thanks Karl.

For the larger "cross-team" meetings, Ava is going to schedule us a time
and a place. So far I've requested special rooms for the following meetings:

"Impact of Compatibility work on Web Authoring"
"Web Compat Team Planning" (mostly for our team, but open to others).
"Web Compat + Platform"

If you'd like me to request something more, let me know soon --

(For the rest of the topics, we'll be in shared spaces, or find our own
place to hide).

Lawrence Mandel

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Apr 12, 2016, 5:47:49 PM4/12/16
to Ali Spivak, Karl Dubost, Jeremie Patonnier, Mike Taylor, Jet Villegas, compatibility, Hallvord R. M. Steen
One of my thoughts on this is that we should invest in related tools like a
build process for packaging web apps that does a bunch of useful things
like minifying js and css and linting. Really, just provide a service that
has value so that people will want to use it and include web compat related
checks in the service.

Lawrence

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Ali Spivak <asp...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> I'd love to spend some time discussing how we can "market" web
> compatibility to web devs (and decision makers) and prove the value of
> testing and debugging cross browsers- this is going to be a focus for
> developer marketing efforts going forward so I'd love to spend some time
> looking reviewing experiments from Q2 and coming up with ideas for Q3 and
> beyond...
>
> I can look into getting a room for this (although it would be in the
> Landmark hotel, not sure where the rest of the sessions will be), or else
> i'm happy to do this when/wherever is the best for the team(s)...
>
> ali
>> _______________________________________________
>> compatibility mailing list
>> compat...@lists.mozilla.org
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/compatibility
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ali spivak
> Head of Developer Marketing
> asp...@mozilla.com
>

Lawrence Mandel

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Apr 12, 2016, 5:49:54 PM4/12/16
to Karl Dubost, Jet Villegas, compatibility, Jeremie Patonnier, Hallvord R. M. Steen, Mike Taylor
Thanks Karl. Time is tough. Perhaps there is a time to discuss regressions
where we can include the release management team (or a subset). Let's see
how the schedule works out.

Lawrence

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:16 AM, Karl Dubost <kdu...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Hallvord, Jeremie, Jet, Lawrence, Mike,
>
> Le 24 mars 2016 à 00:37, Mike Taylor <mi...@mozilla.com> a écrit :
> > With the London all-hands approaching, let's brainstorm some things we'd
> like to discuss as a team, or across teams.
>
>
> I have added all your agenda ideas on the wiki.
> Please review if everything has been transcribed correctly.
> Please add comments to the wiki to explain when it's not clear out of
> context.
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Compatibility/Mobile/2016-06-work-week#toc
>
> Also if you think there is a better time for you to work on these items/
> put it under the item you want to discuss.
>

Ali Spivak

unread,
Apr 12, 2016, 5:52:21 PM4/12/16
to Mike Taylor, Karl Dubost, Jeremie Patonnier, Lawrence Mandel, Jet Villegas, compatibility, Hallvord R. M. Steen
I'd love to spend some time discussing how we can "market" web
compatibility to web devs (and decision makers) and prove the value of
testing and debugging cross browsers- this is going to be a focus for
developer marketing efforts going forward so I'd love to spend some time
looking reviewing experiments from Q2 and coming up with ideas for Q3 and
beyond...

I can look into getting a room for this (although it would be in the
Landmark hotel, not sure where the rest of the sessions will be), or else
i'm happy to do this when/wherever is the best for the team(s)...

ali

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Mike Taylor <mi...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> On 4/12/16 1:16 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>
>> Also if you think there is a better time for you to work on these items/
>> put it under the item you want to discuss.
>>
>

Mike Taylor

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Jun 8, 2016, 10:34:19 AM6/8/16
to Jen Simmons, Jason Weathersby, Mozilla Developer Relations, compatibility, dev...@lists.mozilla.org, Jethro Villegas
Hey Jen,

On 6/8/16 9:21 AM, Jen Simmons wrote:
> Is something that's been scheduled?

Yep, we have a "Impact of Compat..." session on sched:

https://mozillalondonallhands2016.sched.org/?s=webcompat

Hope you (and others) can make it!

Jen Simmons

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Jun 8, 2016, 10:34:58 AM6/8/16
to Jason Weathersby, dev...@lists.mozilla.org, Mozilla Developer Relations, compatibility, Mike Taylor, Jethro Villegas
Is something that's been scheduled?

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Jason Weathersby <jweat...@mozilla.com>
wrote:
>> --
>> Mike Taylor
>> Web Compat, Mozilla
>>
>>
>>
>


--
Jen Simmons
Designer Advocate on the DevRel team at Mozilla
Host of The Web Ahead, http://thewebahead.net
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