General thoughts on Mootools.net

[Oskar Krawczyk]

Howdy,

First of all, you all know I'm a big MT fan – I wouldn't be here nor
posting this if that wasn't the case. That said, let me tell you why
more people don't use this fantastic framework. There are quite a few
reasons for that being:

1. The website, sucks. It needs refining, put more exposure on links
pointing to various MT communities.

2. The lack of a proper plugins depo. It's hard for me to believe
Harald (or Valerio) will have the time to finish works on Red...
something (sorry forgot the name and can't find the link – which only
proves my point). There are a few post around the net compiling a
comprehensive plugin list but neither of them are maintained anymore.

3. Documentation sucks. I've been using it since day one and still
find it incredibly difficult to grasp. Not even mentioning that the
"live search" not working at all (try searching for "$clear", I dare
you – http://www.quicksnapper.com/oskar/image/untitled-0013).

4. Demos suck. There's absolutely no one updating them, and the silly
amount of them just makes me want to cry myself to sleep (not really,
I sleep quite well actually). It the good'ol 1.11 times, the Demo page
was always a super-quick way to see how stuff is being done – just
grabbing a snipplet and I'm on my way with coding. Now, you need to
download the sample code, unpack it, go through the dir structure and
find what you were looking for. This is bad folks.

5. GitHub sucks – and that just my personal opinion as I prefer the
SVN + Versionsapp.com combo :-)

Again, not ranting, don't want to piss anyone off, just saying. MT <3.

Peace out,
Oskar

[nutron]

Oskar, would you be willing to work on these issues yourself? (asking for myself, not necessarily on behalf of the dev group).

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com Clientcide: www.clientcide.com

---

View this message in context: Re: General thoughts on Mootools.net
Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Oskar Krawczyk]

Indeed, I could spare some time and take care of a few of them – not a
huge back-end guy so there's not much I could do about no. 2.

Best,
Oskar

On Jan 6, 4:57 pm, nutron <anut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oskar, would you be willing to work on these issues yourself? (asking for
> myself, not necessarily on behalf of the dev group).
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <

> ml-user+63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com>

> > ------------------------------
> >  View message @
> >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21181...
> > To start a new topic under MooTools Users, email
> > ml-node+660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com>
> > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> -----
> The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> --
> View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21183...

[Guillermo Rauch]

6. Anti-trolling plugin.

--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com

[Oskar Krawczyk]

Guillermo, shouldn't you be filling jQ forums with hater posts like
this (note the lack of a question mark).

People like you, Sir, make me sick when I think about helping the
community.

O.

On Jan 6, 5:39 pm, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 6. Anti-trolling plugin.
>

> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Oskar Krawczyk <oskar.krawc...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Indeed, I could spare some time and take care of a few of them – not a
> > huge back-end guy so there's not much I could do about no. 2.
>
> > Best,
> > Oskar
>
> > On Jan 6, 4:57 pm, nutron <anut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Oskar, would you be willing to work on these issues yourself? (asking for
> > > myself, not necessarily on behalf of the dev group).
>
> > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <
> > > ml-user+63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com>

> > <ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com>

> > <ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com<ml-node%252B660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com>

[nwhite]

wow. easy killer.

I understand your frustration and I agree with your perspective. However attacking people that are active in the community isn't going to help. I agree with Guillermo, not having some kind of filter can lead to more administration and it was that very reason we find ourselves with limited resources.

I understand the Core team's desire to keep things within a small group because it helps with focus and speed and limits the need of training/ overseeing etc. I am more then willing to contribute, I am happy to assist with making the demo's more active and up to date.

Nathan

[nutron]

Moving on...

Oskar, I chatted a bit with Tomocchino and if you'd like to pitch in, we'd love for you to help.

Your list of things you'd like to see fixed isn't short and some of them are quite involved (like coming up with a better search engine than google or authoring a plugins depo) or aren't going to happen (moving off git - though, btw, I hate git, too).

So why don't you start with the demos. Feel free to lift anything you like from the Mootorial. You should use the same system that the rest of the demos use (ping tomocchino for details).

After that we can discuss adding more content to the web site...

-aaron

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <ml-user%2B63126-1947025811@...> wrote:

Guillermo, shouldn't you be filling jQ forums with hater posts like
this (note the lack of a question mark).

People like you, Sir, make me sick when I think about helping the
community.

O.

On Jan 6, 5:39 pm, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@...> wrote:

> 6. Anti-trolling plugin.
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Oskar Krawczyk <oskar.krawc...@...>wrote:

>

>
>
>
>
> > Indeed, I could spare some time and take care of a few of them – not a
> > huge back-end guy so there's not much I could do about no. 2.
>
> > Best,
> > Oskar
>
> > On Jan 6, 4:57 pm, nutron <anut...@...> wrote:
> > > Oskar, would you be willing to work on these issues yourself? (asking for
> > > myself, not necessarily on behalf of the dev group).
>
> > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <

> > > ml-user+63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...>

> > <ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@...>

> > > > ml-node+660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...>

> > <ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%252B660466-1583815...@...>

>
> > > > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> > > -----
> > > The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> > > Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21183...
> > > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --

> Guillermo Rauchhttp://devthought.com

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com Clientcide: www.clientcide.com

---

View this message in context: Re: General thoughts on Mootools.net

[nutron]

Ditto to you Nathan. Jump in!

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:41 AM, nwhite (via Nabble) <ml-user%2B93763-1341009700@...> wrote:

wow. easy killer.

I understand your frustration and I agree with your perspective. However attacking people that are active in the community isn't going to help. I agree with Guillermo, not having some kind of filter can lead to more administration and it was that very reason we find ourselves with limited resources.

I understand the Core team's desire to keep things within a small group because it helps with focus and speed and limits the need of training/ overseeing etc. I am more then willing to contribute, I am happy to assist with making the demo's more active and up to date.

Nathan

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Oskar Krawczyk <oskar.krawczyk@...> wrote:

Guillermo, shouldn't you be filling jQ forums with hater posts like
this (note the lack of a question mark).

People like you, Sir, make me sick when I think about helping the
community.

O.

On Jan 6, 5:39 pm, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@...> wrote:
> 6. Anti-trolling plugin.
>

> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Oskar Krawczyk <oskar.krawc...@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> > Indeed, I could spare some time and take care of a few of them – not a
> > huge back-end guy so there's not much I could do about no. 2.
>
> > Best,
> > Oskar
>
> > On Jan 6, 4:57 pm, nutron <anut...@...> wrote:
> > > Oskar, would you be willing to work on these issues yourself? (asking for
> > > myself, not necessarily on behalf of the dev group).
>
> > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <

> > > ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@...>

> > <ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%25252B63126-1947025...@...>

> > > > ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%252B660466-1583815...@...>

> > <ml-node%252B660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%25252B660466-1583815...@...>

>
> > > > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> > > -----
> > > The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> > > Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21183...
> > > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
> Guillermo Rauchhttp://devthought.com

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com Clientcide: www.clientcide.com

---

View this message in context: Re: General thoughts on Mootools.net

[csuwldcat]

Hey Oskar,

I love this community of people...but i do feel some of your points
are valid (I hope not one throws a freaking shoe at me for this!).

1. First off I wouldn't go so far as to say the docs suck, could they
be better, sure. That said, I would love to help with the docs! There
are at least 10 undocumented options/methods/functions that are
basically easter eggs I have discovered in my few years of use of the
lib. Another thing about the docs I am willing to work on is that
many of the in-docs examples show no use of many of the options
mentioned in the descriptions, the Fx base class is a prime example,
http://mootools.net/docs/Fx/Fx. Now you may say "Fx base is extended
so look to Morph and Fx.Elements"...sorry, not there either. The
upside? We can do this together, just tell me where to write!

2. Framework wars maybe childish, but good old fashioned competition
rocks! Think of this as a business guys, the 1.2 site is kind of like
a Ford Pinto with the the engine of a 427 Shelby Cobra, the Buyer
(read User) needs to see some chrome bumpers and hear the kickin'
sound system before buying. The 1.2 site looks are not what I think
needs a hand, but where are the cool menus of 1.1? You can Google
that shit to this day to find Kwicks and Mootools come up like
freaking cult words in reference to the 1.1 horizontal menu.

3. I would work to get the demos looking super slick once more, again
tell me where to write!

Now please for the love of all that is Holy do not post back that I am
a Troll, I help others here when I can and frequently learn a great
deal from the groups (Arron, thanks again for yesterday's help!), and
of course the docs. Trolling is rarely the case when people are
saying they want to help and make things even tighter than they
already are.

[nutron]

Unfortunately I can't help you get started with the demos as I don't know where these files are anymore. They used to be in the SVN repository but they aren't in the git repository, so you'll have to reach out to valerio and tom on that stuff. I'll try and get more info from them if I can catch them on IM.

Regarding the docs, that's an easy one. Well, sorta, if you consider git easy. The short version is you need to fork the mootools 1.2 codebase and make your edits to the docs. Then check them in an issue a pull request to the main repository. After that Tom or Valerio will have to approve the change and then publish it.

As for the web site and the kwiks menu, the current design was very deliberate. I think perhaps (and I am speculating here) it was a desire on Valerio's part to assert that MooTools is a developer's framework more than it is a designer's framework, and he wanted to make it simple and clean. I do miss the kwiks though. I seriously doubt that we'll see a redesign of the site in the near future, but I'll of course leave that up to Valerio to comment on.

Aaron

> > > > ml-user+63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...>
> > > <ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@...>

> > > > > ml-node+660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...>
> > > <ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%252B660466-1583815...@...>

>
> > > > > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> > > > -----
> > > > The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> > > > Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com

> > > > --
> > > > View this message in context:
> > >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21183...
> > > > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> > --
> > Guillermo Rauchhttp://devthought.com

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com Clientcide: www.clientcide.com

---

View this message in context: Re: General thoughts on Mootools.net

[Oskar Krawczyk]

I might have come off a bit too strong in the third message, which I'm
sorry for - I'm going to have to pull the very-difficult-day card.
Anyway.

As I have mentioned before, I'm willing to participate in creating a
more comprehensive list of demos, and now that it's clear that the
Team is also willing to accept code from external sources (the
community in that case) it feels even more motivating to do so.

In regards to, what Aaron mentioned, on Valerio presumably not wanting
MooTools to be a "designer's framework" – I can empathize with that
statement/fact, but what makes me wonder tho, is why doesn't he want
some publicity (these are actually the words of one author I know down
at Ajaxian). I would presume publicity is always a good thing, yet
there's so little coming out of the official channels, ie. the Blog –
sometimes, just to see whether something's going on on the project I
have to go all the way to GH/LightHouse to check out the latest
comments from the Core team members.

This, again, is not a direct question (or rant, or trolling) but some
general thoughts that have been wondering up north.

Oskar

-----
http://blog.olicio.us | http://lasttweet.com | http://keepthinking.it

On Jan 6, 10:24 pm, nutron <anut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately I can't help you get started with the demos as I don't know
> where these files are anymore. They used to be in the SVN repository but
> they aren't in the git repository, so you'll have to reach out to valerio
> and tom on that stuff. I'll try and get more info from them if I can catch
> them on IM.
> Regarding the docs, that's an easy one. Well, sorta, if you consider git
> easy. The short version is you need to fork the mootools 1.2 codebase and
> make your edits to the docs. Then check them in an issue a pull request to
> the main repository. After that Tom or Valerio will have to approve the
> change and then publish it.
>
> As for the web site and the kwiks menu, the current design was very
> deliberate. I think perhaps (and I am speculating here) it was a desire on
> Valerio's part to assert that MooTools is a developer's framework more than
> it is a designer's framework, and he wanted to make it simple and clean. I
> do miss the kwiks though. I seriously doubt that we'll see a redesign of the
> site in the near future, but I'll of course leave that up to Valerio to
> comment on.
>
> Aaron
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:47 AM, csuwldcat-2 (via Nabble) <

> ml-user+164628-370837...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B164628-370837...@n2.nabble.com>

> > On Jan 6, 10:21 am, Oskar Krawczyk <oskar.krawc...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=0>>

> > wrote:
> > > Guillermo, shouldn't you be filling jQ forums with hater posts like
> > > this (note the lack of a question mark).
>
> > > People like you, Sir, make me sick when I think about helping the
> > > community.
>
> > > O.
>

> > > On Jan 6, 5:39 pm, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=1>>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > 6. Anti-trolling plugin.

>
> > > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Oskar Krawczyk <oskar.krawc...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=2>>wrote:
>
> > > > > Indeed, I could spare some time and take care of a few of them – not
> > a
> > > > > huge back-end guy so there's not much I could do about no. 2.
>
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Oskar
>

> > > > > On Jan 6, 4:57 pm, nutron <anut...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=3>>

> > wrote:
> > > > > > Oskar, would you be willing to work on these issues yourself?
> > (asking for
> > > > > > myself, not necessarily on behalf of the dev group).
>
> > > > > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <

> > > > > > ml-user+63126-1947025...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=4>
> > <ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=5>>
>
> > > > > <ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=6>
> > <ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=7>>

> > > > > > > ml-node+660466-1583815...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=8>
> > <ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=9>>
>
> > > > > <ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=10>
> > <ml-node%252B660466-1583815...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2119056&i=11>>

>
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> > > > > > Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > View this message in context:
> > > > >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21183...
>
> > > > > > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Guillermo Rauchhttp://devthought.com
>

> > ------------------------------
> >  View message @
> >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21190...

> > To start a new topic under MooTools Users, email

> > ml-node+660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com>

> > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> -----
> The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> --

> View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21197...

[nutron]

This has been discussed here and on the forums and in IRC a lot. Why doesn't MooTools do more to promote itself?

The short version is that popularity isn't something that the dev team is focused on. I, personally, would like to see MooTools have a lot more corporate sponsorship/use, but I recognize that it's a double edged sword. jQuery and it's team spends a lot of energy evangelizing and it pays off for them with deals w/ Microsoft and others. MooTools is more focused on core development and the dev team is apparently content to continue on at the current pace.

To the extent that I disagree with that line of reasoning I've taken matters into my own hands and I blog (on clientcide) several times a week and release a lot of the code I write (which takes a lot of time).

The two ways all of you can contribute to MooTools' impact on the web are to contribute to the core itself (via github) and to release your own code (something I wrote about just the other day: http://www.clientcide.com/tools/why-you-should-consider-releasing-code/

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <ml-user%2B63126-1947025811@...> wrote:

I might have come off a bit too strong in the third message, which I'm
sorry for - I'm going to have to pull the very-difficult-day card.
Anyway.

As I have mentioned before, I'm willing to participate in creating a
more comprehensive list of demos, and now that it's clear that the
Team is also willing to accept code from external sources (the
community in that case) it feels even more motivating to do so.

In regards to, what Aaron mentioned, on Valerio presumably not wanting
MooTools to be a "designer's framework" – I can empathize with that
statement/fact, but what makes me wonder tho, is why doesn't he want
some publicity (these are actually the words of one author I know down
at Ajaxian). I would presume publicity is always a good thing, yet
there's so little coming out of the official channels, ie. the Blog –
sometimes, just to see whether something's going on on the project I
have to go all the way to GH/LightHouse to check out the latest
comments from the Core team members.

This, again, is not a direct question (or rant, or trolling) but some
general thoughts that have been wondering up north.

Oskar

-----
http://blog.olicio.us | http://lasttweet.com | http://keepthinking.it

On Jan 6, 10:24 pm, nutron <anut...@...> wrote:

> Unfortunately I can't help you get started with the demos as I don't know
> where these files are anymore. They used to be in the SVN repository but
> they aren't in the git repository, so you'll have to reach out to valerio
> and tom on that stuff. I'll try and get more info from them if I can catch
> them on IM.
> Regarding the docs, that's an easy one. Well, sorta, if you consider git
> easy. The short version is you need to fork the mootools 1.2 codebase and
> make your edits to the docs. Then check them in an issue a pull request to
> the main repository. After that Tom or Valerio will have to approve the
> change and then publish it.
>
> As for the web site and the kwiks menu, the current design was very
> deliberate. I think perhaps (and I am speculating here) it was a desire on
> Valerio's part to assert that MooTools is a developer's framework more than
> it is a designer's framework, and he wanted to make it simple and clean. I
> do miss the kwiks though. I seriously doubt that we'll see a redesign of the
> site in the near future, but I'll of course leave that up to Valerio to
> comment on.
>
> Aaron
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:47 AM, csuwldcat-2 (via Nabble) <

> ml-user+164628-370837...@...<ml-user%2B164628-370837...@...>

> > ml-node+660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...>

> > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> -----
> The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> --

> View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21197...

> Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com Clientcide: www.clientcide.com

---

View this message in context: Re: General thoughts on Mootools.net

[Nicolas Trani]

Hi,

i'am also a big fan of MT since the first beta release, I agree with
some things you said but...

1. The website do not sucks. Take a look at http://www.php.net
http://www.apache.org http://www.mysql.com ? Thoses website are realy
simple as mootols. I think mootools website filters the users, as for me
mootools is not a UI javascript framework, its a developper framework.
And the website exactly make me feel it that way. I think the aim of
mootools team is not te become the most used framework, but to become
the most powerfull and well written framwork, and there are on the good
way! And i bet mootools will grow exponentially in 2009.

2. I agree with you for the plugin repository, but I found (dont
remember how) this : http://redracer.digitarald.com/ Does some MT admin
can confirm this one is going to be the official mootools plugin
repository? (i like it!)

3. Documentation sucks for some things :

* search engine
* some undocumented functions
* poor documented functions

So why not set up a git/svn repository or a wiki where trusted user can
contribute?

4. Making demo is a HUGE work, so as for me the best solution is to
provide svn/git repository where trusted user can contribute.

Oskar Krawczyk a écrit :

--
Nicolas Trani - web engineer
Weelya - Improve the web
32 rue du faubourg boutonnet
34090 Montpellier
Tel/Fax : 04 67 169 778
http://www.weelya.com

Notre agence sera fermée du 12 au 16 janvier 2009

[keif]

If I recall, a plugin repos is in the works - but it's a singular
effort, done in the free time of a couple of the devs involved - I
can't find the link at the moment, but it's being built.

DEMOS are actually pretty damned easy if you follow the simple format
1.11 used. I've been wanting to duplicate all the old 1.11 demos into
1.2 code and a couple others, but it's always a matter of time -
client work versus demos, and the demos are going to lose out (for
now).

I plan on contributing, but it's a work in progress...

On Jan 7, 7:45 am, Nicolas Trani <n.tr...@weelya.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> i'am also a big fan of MT since the first beta release, I agree with
> some things you said but...
>

> 1. The website do not sucks. Take a look athttp://www.php.nethttp://www.apache.orghttp://www.mysql.com? Thoses website are realy

> simple as mootols. I think mootools website filters the users, as for me
> mootools is not a UI javascript framework, its a developper framework.
> And the website exactly make me feel it that way. I think the aim of
> mootools team is not te become the most used framework, but to become
> the most powerfull and well written framwork, and there are on the good
> way! And i bet mootools will grow exponentially in 2009.
>
> 2. I agree with you for the plugin repository, but I found (dont

> remember how) this :http://redracer.digitarald.com/Does some MT admin

> Tel/Fax : 04 67 169 778http://www.weelya.com

[csuwldcat]

Considering what you said above Arron about releasing stuff, can I
email you a link to a site I have been working on that uses Moo
extensively? (read: a shit ton)

We will eventually be releasing some of the cooler Moo scripts and
snippets we use on the site to the community. It isn't finished and
ready to go out the door but we think it is going to make a decent
market impact in it's segment. If it does succeed, we would also
really like to give Moo so much deserved credit/traffic.

Two reasons why I would want someone like you to check it out:

1. You have experience and are seasoned in the startup routine and you
are a pretty darn good coder, from what I have seen.
2. We have wanted a critical eye on this for a while to give us real
feedback.

Under two conditions:

1. that you will not publish the link :)
2. and under a gentleman's agreement that you wouldn't use core
elements you see - not that you would, my team would just want me to
say this mumbo jumbo :)

Care to have a look? Just let me know where to email you at!

- Daniel

On Jan 6, 6:50 pm, nutron <anut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This has been discussed here and on the forums and in IRC a lot. Why doesn't
> MooTools do more to promote itself?
> The short version is that popularity isn't something that the dev team is
> focused on. I, personally, would like to see MooTools have a lot more
> corporate sponsorship/use, but I recognize that it's a double edged sword.
> jQuery and it's team spends a lot of energy evangelizing and it pays off for
> them with deals w/ Microsoft and others. MooTools is more focused on core
> development and the dev team is apparently content to continue on at the
> current pace.
>
> To the extent that I disagree with that line of reasoning I've taken matters
> into my own hands and I blog (on clientcide) several times a week and
> release a lot of the code I write (which takes a lot of time).
>
> The two ways all of you can contribute to MooTools' impact on the web are to
> contribute to the core itself (via github) and to release your own code
> (something I wrote about just the other day:http://www.clientcide.com/tools/why-you-should-consider-releasing-code/
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Oskar Krawczyk (via Nabble) <

> ml-user+63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com>

>
> > wrote:
>
> > I might have come off a bit too strong in the third message, which I'm
> > sorry for - I'm going to have to pull the very-difficult-day card.
> > Anyway.
>
> > As I have mentioned before, I'm willing to participate in creating a
> > more comprehensive list of demos, and now that it's clear that the
> > Team is also willing to accept code from external sources (the
> > community in that case) it feels even more motivating to do so.
>
> > In regards to, what Aaron mentioned, on Valerio presumably not wanting
> > MooTools to be a "designer's framework" – I can empathize with that
> > statement/fact, but what makes me wonder tho, is why doesn't he want
> > some publicity (these are actually the words of one author I know down
> > at Ajaxian). I would presume publicity is always a good thing, yet
> > there's so little coming out of the official channels, ie. the Blog –
> > sometimes, just to see whether something's going on on the project I
> > have to go all the way to GH/LightHouse to check out the latest
> > comments from the Core team members.
>
> > This, again, is not a direct question (or rant, or trolling) but some
> > general thoughts that have been wondering up north.
>
> > Oskar
>
> > -----
> >http://blog.olicio.us|http://lasttweet.com|http://keepthinking.it
>

> > On Jan 6, 10:24 pm, nutron <anut...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2120381&i=0>>

> > > ml-user+164628-370837...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2120381&i=1>
> > <ml-user%2B164628-370837...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2120381&i=2>>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Benjamin Gonzales]

Excuse my english.

What I propose is that mootools should provide standards for the development of plugins can be.
- Structure of the files of the plugins, example:
+--fancyUpload2
+---images
+---js
+------FxProgressBar.js
+------SwiffUploader.js
+---cs
+------fancyUpload2.css
+---loadplugin.js

- Convention of names.
- Coding Style.
- Between(Among) others.

Thus, it would be much easier to integrate and not as now everyone develops without rules, and everything is chaos

Benjamín Gonzales

2009/1/7 csuwldcat <dani...@gmail.com>

--
Benjamín Gonzales
Blog personal: http://codigolinea.com

[Guillermo Rauch]

Most of the time people will be integrating the JS into other files, the CSS in their own stylesheets (while also modifying them), and the images in their own images folders. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what directory structure the plugin developer chose.

Here are the coding style guidelines that MooTools follows http://wiki.github.com/mootools/mootools-core/syntax-and-coding-style-conventions

[Garrick]

I just had to pop in and say this is all very interesting stuff. I'd
like to help too.

On Jan 7, 8:49 am, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most of the time people will be integrating the JS into other files, the CSS
> in their own stylesheets (while also modifying them), and the images in
> their own images folders. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what
> directory structure the plugin developer chose.
>

> Here are the coding style guidelines that MooTools followshttp://wiki.github.com/mootools/mootools-core/syntax-and-coding-style...

>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Benjamin Gonzales <
>

> benjamin.gonza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Excuse my english.
>
> > What I propose is that mootools should provide standards for the
> > development of plugins can be.
> > - Structure of the files of the plugins, example:
> > +--fancyUpload2
> > +---images
> > +---js
> > +------FxProgressBar.js
> > +------SwiffUploader.js
> > +---cs
> > +------fancyUpload2.css
> > +---loadplugin.js
>
> > - Convention of names.
> > - Coding Style.
> > - Between(Among) others.
>
> > Thus, it would be much easier to integrate and not as now everyone develops
> > without rules, and everything is chaos
>
> > Benjamín Gonzales
>

> > 2009/1/7 csuwldcat <daniel...@gmail.com>

> >> <ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@n2.nabble.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[nutron]

Before all this good will evaporates, let me reiterate that all you guys / gals who are saying you want to help is both much appreciated and quite welcome.

At issue now is mostly that of infrastructure. Specifically, making it so that you CAN contribute to things like the demos, which are no longer part of the code repository (and thus harder for you to get your hands on). I'm still looking for Tom and Valerio to pop online. Tom just moved out here (to California) for his new job like, 4 days ago, and Valerio had some huge deadline as of a few days ago. So I'll keep this as a to-do item on my list to get them engaged on this topic as soon as possible. Don't get discouraged if it takes a few more days. It's the beginning of the year and a lot of people are still kinda getting their wheels rolling after taking a long vacation.

Stay tuned.

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Garrick (via Nabble) <ml-user%2B96685-1507856993@...> wrote:

I just had to pop in and say this is all very interesting stuff. I'd
like to help too.

> > 2009/1/7 csuwldcat <daniel...@...>

> >> > ml-user+63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...>

> >> <ml-user%2B63126-1947025...@...<ml-user%252B63126-1947025...@...>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jan Kassens]

I just wanted to chime in here and say that I'm pretty excited about
all your enthusiasm and every contribution from the community is
highly welcome. (after all it is an open source project!).
But I also figured the infrastructure isn't perfect, especially
because git is a bit different from what most people know, but those
who are want to learn it are free to fork mootools on github and send
me a pull request.
I'll try to think of an easier way to contribute to the docs as well
as the demos. Perfectly something not involving a version control
system at least for the docs.

On Jan 8, 2009, at 0:42, nutron wrote:

> Before all this good will evaporates, let me reiterate that all you
> guys / gals who are saying you want to help is both much appreciated
> and quite welcome.
>
> At issue now is mostly that of infrastructure. Specifically, making
> it so that you CAN contribute to things like the demos, which are no
> longer part of the code repository (and thus harder for you to get
> your hands on). I'm still looking for Tom and Valerio to pop online.
> Tom just moved out here (to California) for his new job like, 4 days
> ago, and Valerio had some huge deadline as of a few days ago. So
> I'll keep this as a to-do item on my list to get them engaged on
> this topic as soon as possible. Don't get discouraged if it takes a
> few more days. It's the beginning of the year and a lot of people
> are still kinda getting their wheels rolling after taking a long
> vacation.
>
> Stay tuned.

--
Jan - MooTools comitter
twitter/blog: http://kassens.net

[nutron]

I think version control for the docs is just fine - I don't think we should move the docs off github.

[jiggliemon]

As I learn more about the library I'd like to update the docs. Nutron
recently helped clear up some Event.target questions I had that would
be well suited in the docs (as they're unclear about where the target
is referent to) and other minor issues like this.

Is there someone we could email the doc submissions to currently?

On Jan 8, 9:04 am, nutron <anut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think version control for the docs is just fine - I don't think we should
> move the docs off github.
>
> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Jan Kassens (via Nabble) <

> ml-user+57495-467023...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B57495-467023...@n2.nabble.com>

> > ------------------------------
> >  View message @
> >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21268...

> > To start a new topic under MooTools Users, email

> > ml-node+660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com>

> > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> -----
> The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> --

> View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21288...

[nutron]

Doc changes should go through github. Fork the core, make your change, and send a pull request.

The Event.target thing is not something that needs to be documented as it's part of JavaScript, and our documentation should not seek to cover that ground.

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, jiggliemon (via Nabble) <ml-user%2B114393-900309378@...> wrote:

As I learn more about the library I'd like to update the docs.  Nutron
recently helped clear up some Event.target questions I had that would
be well suited in the docs (as they're unclear about where the target
is referent to) and other minor issues like this.

Is there someone we could email the doc submissions to currently?

On Jan 8, 9:04 am, nutron <anut...@...> wrote:

> I think version control for the docs is just fine - I don't think we should
> move the docs off github.
>
> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Jan Kassens (via Nabble) <

> ml-user+57495-467023...@...<ml-user%2B57495-467023...@...>

> > ml-node+660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...>

> > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> -----
> The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> --

> View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21288...

> Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com Clientcide: www.clientcide.com

---

View this message in context: Re: General thoughts on Mootools.net

[rpflo]

While the docs could use some help (I guess), I love them.

I'm a graphic designer who got involved with a software company
designing their user interfaces. I don't consider myself a developer,
and I don't know a lick of "real" javascript. I got sick of our
developers saying things were "too hard" or "impossible" and set out
to learn to program a bit to throw it back at them (if the graphic
designer can do it ... why can't the devs?!).

When mootools 1.2 and the new website came out things finally started
to click. I quit being a copy/paste moron, and have started to build
some really impressive applications interfaces (so much so that when I
showed one of my company's real developers an interface piece I
designed and asked if we could add that to our company's web app he
said "Desktop stuff is hard to move onto the web" and I replied "this
is javascript: it is the web").

So anyway, just saying, the new docs page helped me go from idiot to a
decent code monkey. So thank you!

(from a usability stand point it's top-notch, very well thought out)

On Jan 8, 4:14 pm, nutron <anut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Doc changes should go through github. Fork the core, make your change, and
> send a pull request.
> The Event.target thing is not something that needs to be documented as it's
> part of JavaScript, and our documentation should not seek to cover that
> ground.
>
> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM, jiggliemon (via Nabble) <

> ml-user+114393-900309...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B114393-900309...@n2.nabble.com>

>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> > As I learn more about the library I'd like to update the docs.  Nutron
> > recently helped clear up some Event.target questions I had that would
> > be well suited in the docs (as they're unclear about where the target
> > is referent to) and other minor issues like this.
>
> > Is there someone we could email the doc submissions to currently?
>

> > On Jan 8, 9:04 am, nutron <anut...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2130784&i=0>>

> > wrote:
>
> > > I think version control for the docs is just fine - I don't think we
> > should
> > > move the docs off github.
>
> > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Jan Kassens (via Nabble) <

> > > ml-user+57495-467023...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2130784&i=1>
> > <ml-user%2B57495-467023...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2130784&i=2>>

> > > > ml-node+660466-1583815...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2130784&i=3>
> > <ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=2130784&i=4>>

>
> > > > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> > > -----
> > > The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> > > Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21288...
> > > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

> > ------------------------------
> >  View message @
> >http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21307...

> > To start a new topic under MooTools Users, email

> > ml-node+660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@n2.nabble.com>

> > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> -----
> The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com
> --

> View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21307...

[keif]

I'd be all about jumping in on editing the docs and the like, and I
currently have a demo dump for most of my stuff (it's a combination of
my scripts, scripts I've found/liked).

I'll do my best (errrr) to try and convert all the old demos and come
up with a decent presentation page for consideration to be moved to
the official demos - I'd especially *love* to have the show/hide of
the 1.11 demos put back in.

-kb

[nwhite]

I'd like to chime in and say that from my point of view the docs are top notch. As a developer I think the format is concise and makes sense. A lot of people want to contribute however some of it is just clarification and different learning processes. What would think of adopting something like PHP structure? The core docs are static and uneditable by the general public. There is however a comment section for anyone to chime in on.

[Jan Kassens]

Please organize your efforts with the core team if your going to do
more. This will avoid frustration on your side and lead to better
contributions to MooTools. (An example would be the documentation of
native javascript functionality which we don't want).

I'd gladly guide you or other people on how to contribute. Ping me on
IRC (JanK) or just drop me a mail for instant messanger info.

>>> View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21307
>>> ...

>>> Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
Jan - MooTools comitter
http://kassens.net

[CroNiX]

One thing that I think would be helpful in the docs is a search
function, or at least one that works.
If you go to the docs main page, and enter in any function that is
listed ON THAT PAGE (or any other) into the search box, it always
comes up empty?

[nutron]

Would anyone care to research a search engine we can use to replace google?

On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 12:52 PM, CroNiX (via Nabble) <ml-user%2B55804-2014398426@...> wrote:

One thing that I think would be helpful in the docs is a search
function, or at least one that works.
If you go to the docs main page, and enter in any function that is
listed ON THAT PAGE (or any other) into the search box, it always
comes up empty?

> > > ml-user+114393-900309...@...<ml-user%2B114393-900309...@...>

> > > > > --

> > > > ml-node+660466-1583815...@...<ml-node%2B660466-1583815...@...>

> > > > To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>
> > > -----
> > > The MooTools Tutorial:  http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> > > Clientcide:  http://www.clientcide.comwww.clientcide.com

> > > --
> > > View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/General-thoughts-on-Mootools.net-tp2118117p21307...
> > > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com Clientcide: www.clientcide.com

---

View this message in context: Re: General thoughts on Mootools.net

[Guillermo Rauch]

Apache Lucene ?

On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 7:34 PM, nutron <anu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would anyone care to research a search engine we can use to replace google?

[nwhite]

Apache Lucene ?

 Amazing engine. Have you seen Solr?

I think these are a bit overkill for this task.

[nutron]

I was thinking something more along the line of perlfect (http://www.perlfect.com/freescripts/search/). Simple, self contained, run it anywhere without much server access.

[daKmoR]

hey,

I don't know if anyone still remember, but I once built a little demo
page that used allows to see the js/css/html code for the official
mootools demos..

http://demos.mooforum.net/

it was quite funny for me to "develop" and would have liked to include
more demos, but no one seems to be interested
The way the files are organized is the same as on the official page so
it's just copy and paste all the files from the original page to make
it working...

so if anyone updates a demo or creates a demo, it would be nice to
also send the files to me, so I can included it..
ok, I will also check the official demo page from time to time...
*hehe*

PS: once if the things that has been a problem quite often is that the
Request uses post on the demo page for retrieving data from an *.html
file, which seems to be mostly forbidden by many hosts... so it would
be great the change this to "method: get" so people don't keep asking:
"the official demo won't work on my server... " *hehe*
PPS: just my 2 cents :p

[fabiomcosta]

great work dakmor! nice demos and the style of the page is great.
Just the jsonP example that was linking to a "tips" demo page.
Nice.

[ibolmo]

Ok this is a bit overboard. There's no need to have you clone
mootools' demos and then invite others to send to yours. I mean it's
all MIT, but it's just leaves a bad taste.

Have you tried to talk to kami?

[davidwalsh83]

I wouldn't call it overboard Olmo. I think it's very nice, very
useful. I wouldn't include it in any official capacity though.

David

[daKmoR]

On Jan 12, 10:40 am, ibolmo <Olmo.Maldon...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok this is a bit overboard. There's no need to have you clone
> mootools' demos and then invite others to send to yours. I mean it's
> all MIT, but it's just leaves a bad taste.

I mainly build it for the sake of it, as it helped me to learn more
mootools and I thought I could help some people...
it's definitely not the nicest code, but it "gives" the "old" 1.1
feeling for getting the demo code (I believe it's way more convenient)
I say on the first page, that most of the demos are just plain copies
from the official demo page...
I just wanted to stay "compatible" so I can get the new demos easily
if they are added to the official demo page, and I could easily
provide new demos...

> Have you tried to talk to kami?

yeah I tried to talk to a few core developers, but I didn't got any
feedback. hmm yeah that was a long time ago.... :p

[Guillermo Rauch]

I think that if dakmor sticks to showcasing 3rd party MooTools plugins, and not the official components, they can both coexist. 

[csuwldcat]

I am using solr on a local search site right now, it rocks the
casba...hard. Big 1UP on using Lucene's Solr.

- Daniel

[ibolmo]

I guess you did understand me. My issue just was that it's going to be
confusing if people have two places with common demos, but one has
more because others preferred to send it to darkmor.

Like I said, that's perfectly correct; but I would agree with
Guillermo that as long as there's clear separation between the two --
with defined purposes for both -- then it makes sense. Otherwise, I'd
opt to have you talk to kami.

Olmo

On Jan 12, 9:55 am, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@gmail.com> wrote:

[daKmoR]

On Jan 13, 12:34 am, ibolmo <Olmo.Maldon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess you did understand me. My issue just was that it's going to be
> confusing if people have two places with common demos, but one has
> more because others preferred to send it to darkmor.

*hehe* I didn't get any demos so far, and this page is pretty old so I
don't think it will happen...
but yeah you are right. So how about this.
once the official demos get a proper "view your js/css/html/php code"
with no need to download the files, I will remove these demos from my
page...
(I don't want to do it earlier, because sometimes I use them myself,
as I forget things and it's just easier to look up things that way...)

> Otherwise, I'd opt to have you talk to kami.

yeah sure if I get to see him on IRC I will ask about his opinion (but
as far as I remember he's a pretty hard to reach boy.. :p)

[nutron]

Hi all,

I spoke w/ Valerio yesterday. He loves the idea of the community being able to contribute more directly to the demos and examples on MooTools.net, but, unfortunately, the infrastructure that drives that page isn't really designed for that kind of community management *at the moment*. He agreed to revisit it so that you guys/grls can start submitting your own demos and tutorials.

Hopefully we can have something available for you all within the next few weeks.

In the mean time, I still think there's room for two contributions:

1) a more effective replacement for search in the docs. Keep in mind the environment for our server is somewhat limited, so the simpler the solution the better (again, I'm thinking of something like Perlfect here).

2) additional clarifications in the documentation. If you find something amiss in the docs, dive into github!

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 8:28 AM, daKmoR-2 (via Nabble) <ml-user%2B56307-1043624619@...> wrote: