What's going on in MooTools...

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Tom Occhino

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Sep 16, 2008, 8:16:29 PM9/16/08
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I'm writing this post to the mailing list to inform the MooTools community about what the developers have been doing these days, and what is to come for the framework.  We are all getting tired of answering the same questions over and over again, so I hope this clears some things up and we can stop seeing the same thing, over and over and over again in the mailing list.

1. What's up with the site?

Many of you think we discarded the old MooTools site in exchange for a bland boring alternative.  The reason we've upgraded the site to the new beautiful, simple, not-flashy-at-all site is because we want people to understand what MooTools is before they attempt to use it.  We love the new site, and it's exactly what we want it to be.  The old site did not convey the right image for the framework.  MooTools was never meant to be a script that you drop in and paste some code from an example to add some crazy effects to your site, even though you know nothing about JavaScript.  It is a framework for javascript developers.  If that makes us sound eliteist, well then so be it, but understand that's not our goal.  That being said, we also understand that no matter what we tell anyone, we cant force them to learn anything, and many people will use the tools we develop the wrong way...  that's fine, they are open source for a reason.

3. What's up with the forum?

We like the mailing list format a lot better, as it's what all developers around the world use, and we can view it from our own mail clients at our leisure.  Please stop asking us to bring the forum back, or feel free to switch to another framework that provides their users with an official bulletin-board like forum software... (keep in mind, all other frameworks, including jQuery use a mailing list.  None have an official forum, and none of their users complain about it)

That being said, there are other solutions.  If you've never heard of Nabble, check it out.  http://n2.nabble.com/MooTools-Users-f660466.html  It's basically a forum interface for the mailing list.  Also, the guys over at mooforum.net are doing a great job, better than we could ever have done with the mootools forum, so sign up there and use it instead of the mailing list if you wish.

To the developers and moderators at mooforum.net, if you ever need anything, or think there is an important post any of the MooTools developers should check out, please let me know via email, and i will get right back to you.  Thanks for all your hard work over there, we all appreciate it.

2. What's up with the blog?

Valerio and I have spent this entire week since Fronteers 2008 (more on that in a minute) working on the new MooTools blog.  Mephisto has given us tons of problems, and cannot be styled properly like the rest of the site so we had to ditch it.  This was no easy task, but as soon as it is done, (by the end of this week) I myself and the other developers will be posting to it regularly with more updates / useful information.  We are actually ditching all the subdomains for simpler alternatives, and a faster, less problematic site.  Check for updates at mootools.net later this week.

3. Fronteers what?

Last week I spoke at a conference in Amsterdam called Fronteers about Object Oriented Design in JavaScript, and how we use some principles in MooTools.  Valerio attended the conference with me, and while we were there, we talked about MooTools... a lot.

4. What about other frameworks?

As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about, we are all on the same team!  We love the other frameworks, and the contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all of you to also.  We are not competing with any of them.  If you think jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use it!  It is a well tested, well rounded framework.  I also want the framework wars to stop.  If the developers are all cool with each other, then so should the users be.  No more bashing other frameworks, okay everyone?

5. What's next?

We are working to release 1.2.1 very very soon.  The biggest issues that need to be addressed lie in Class.js, but for anyone who has looked at and understood the code, it's not exactly trivial stuff.  I have been working on rewriting Class.js to work again in Safari2, and work in Opera without an ugly hack.  I'll let you know when we are finished and everything is tested.  1.2.1 will also contain many other bug fixes, and at this point, will be a drop in replacement for 1.2.  There is one Reqeust issue which im looking into that might require us to make a minor change to the API.  If this does happen, I will let you know how to address the minor change when we release.

After 1.2.1, we will be developing MooTools 1.3.  If there are any other changes we decide must be released, we may release one or two more minor releases, but we will decide if they are necessary as we develop.  1.3 will include a few new features, though we havent decided on them definitely yet.  I will make some blog posts about new stuff as it's finished, and when you can expect to start using it.

If the blog was live, i would have made this a post, but i figure this is good enough to give the MooTools users a little official insight into what's been going on, and what's happening.  If there are any other questions that i didnt answer here, let me know and i'll address those too.

Thanks all, and happy moo-ing,
- Tom Occhino

Tom Occhino

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Sep 16, 2008, 8:22:37 PM9/16/08
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PS: sorry i can't count. :)

On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:16 AM, Tom Occhino wrote:

> a ton of crap...

CroNiX

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Sep 16, 2008, 9:18:01 PM9/16/08
to MooTools Users
I want to thank all of the dev team for what they do and all of the
free work hours they put in. I use mootools in just about all of my
projects and my clients are stunned at what it can do. It is truly a
professional product. While I do miss the official forum, mainly
because everything was in 1 place (the mootools.net site) and it was
awesome as far as entering/viewing code (tab key worked!), I do
understand your decision. It would be nice if a link could be added
to the 'Community' section for the unofficial forum (mooforum.net). I
have nothing to do with the site other than I view it occasionally.
Again, thank you guys.

-CroNiX

daKmoR

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Sep 17, 2008, 4:55:45 AM9/17/08
to MooTools Users
These are exactly the post we want to see on a regular basis on the
blog... (when it's live again.. :))
Just to stay informed what's going and to see the progress that's
being made.

thx for the mooforum.net part, we will come back to it if needed.
Also if anyone has any suggestions for mooforum.net feel free to ask
(we are normally open minded...)

On Sep 17, 3:18 am, CroNiX <cronix...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be nice if a link could be added
> to the 'Community' section for the unofficial forum (mooforum.net).

+1 for that :)

Thomas Aylott

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Sep 17, 2008, 7:49:37 AM9/17/08
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http://forum.mootools.net/

links to:

Attention: The forum is now read-only. Please see the MooTools
Development Wiki for current support options.

http://github.com/mootools/mootools-core/wikis/support


> What about Forums?
> There are no official MooTools forums.
>
> There are a number of unofficial places where you can discuss
> MooTools and ask for support.
>
> Unofficial MooForum
> Why no official forum?
>
"Unofficial MooForum" links to "mooforum.net"

All support options are listed on that page. All links to support
options to link to this wiki page.

—Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient

Tom Occhino

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Sep 17, 2008, 8:24:20 AM9/17/08
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dakMoR, I'll see what I can do to get you a link on the frontpage this
week (along with a link to Aaron's book...) Hopefully that will drive
a bit more traffic your way. :)

daKmoR

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Sep 17, 2008, 8:29:04 AM9/17/08
to MooTools Users
yeah that's great... but I thought something more like a link on the
front page...

Community
* MooTools Users Group
* IRC Channel
* unofficial mooforum

it's my wish... just let me dream... :)

Guillermo Rauch

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Sep 17, 2008, 8:32:32 AM9/17/08
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I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked in the frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not create a mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com

Tom Occhino

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Sep 17, 2008, 9:02:36 AM9/17/08
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daKmoR, that's exactly what I was talking about adding... ;)

As Guillermo said, maybe it could use a few improvements... like a smaller header with less (or no) pictures of cows in it? :P hehe

rpflo

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Sep 17, 2008, 11:48:13 AM9/17/08
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I love the new site, just for the record.

chris...@gmail.com

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Sep 17, 2008, 1:54:29 PM9/17/08
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I don't think there was much issue with the move to google groups. I
agree that they work good. I think the main issue was the removal of
the forum completely and feeling a loss of all that information. Now
that its back at least in a read-only manner still provides useful
information and solutions that otherwise might have been lost in the
void. Its been helpful in trying to point out examples to my
developers and superiors as I made the push for my company to move to
Mootools. Which we have btw. After the first of the year you will have
another big company to put on your homepage that uses Mootools (think
Seattle and Gates).

I love the new site. Its simplistic and to the point. Everything
Mootools is about.

Thanks for all the hard work.

Thomas Aylott

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Sep 17, 2008, 2:31:59 PM9/17/08
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Yeah, the forum being completely down was never intentional.
The goal was just to make it readonly and move new discussion over to
the groups.

We'd been having some server issues which is what prompted the need to
move off our box for the most part.

—Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient

daKmoR

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Sep 18, 2008, 8:12:27 AM9/18/08
to MooTools Users
On Sep 17, 2:32 pm, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked in the
> frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not create a
> mailing list, like mooforum-dev?

that would be great, but I would suggest as it's all about the forum
to use the forum itself to discuss about it.
There could be a separate section or an even hidden section only seen
by those who are in a certain group...
And the best part you don't have to check any other page...

if you want to get emails every time somethings new gets posted you
can even subscript to a section or to
a specific thread...

but if you don't want to the use the forum - yeah then I would create
a mailing list...
just let me know.. :p

Rey Bango

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Sep 27, 2008, 11:27:10 PM9/27/08
to MooTools Users
Hi Tom,

> As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about,  
> we are all on the same team!  We love the other frameworks, and the  
> contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all  
> of you to also.  We are not competing with any of them.  If you think  
> jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use  
> it!  It is a well tested, well rounded framework.  I also want the  
> framework wars to stop.  If the developers are all cool with each  
> other, then so should the users be.  No more bashing other frameworks,  
> okay everyone?

Thanks for the kind words Tom. The same to you Valerio. I hope you
know that you know that the feeling is mutual and I have the utmost
respect for your work.

Rey...
jQuery Project

MX3Design

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Oct 1, 2008, 5:30:37 AM10/1/08
to MooTools Users
The trouble is Tom all you're really achieving now is development for
yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is
difficult to find and help is not forthcoming. If you're happy writing
code for yourself that's fine but until you start viewing your users
with a degree of respect instead of an obvious contempt your
'framework' will go nowhere.

(I use 'framework' loosely as the core alters radically without
backward compatibility).


In my opinion many of Mootools decisions appear to be incredibly
naive

Iván N Paz

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Oct 1, 2008, 7:53:30 AM10/1/08
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On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 4:30 AM, MX3Design <mx3d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The trouble is Tom all you're really achieving now is development for
> yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is

Will this ever stop? :-P

AwesomeSauce

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Oct 2, 2008, 1:20:18 PM10/2/08
to MooTools Users
I'm in accord with MX3Design's statements.

The elitism prevalent among some of the developers is dragging down my
opinion of Mootools. Mootools like all open source projects is only
as strong as its user base. By helping to educate your users you
potentially gain more developers in the future, by disregarding their
questions and comments you lose users and ensure the stagnation of the
project.

If people are complaining about the design of the site... listen.
If they are complaining about the removal of the forums... listen.
If they want more demos... listen.
If there are undocumented methods... document them.
http://mootools.lighthouseapp.com/projects/2706/tickets/238-unlink-undocumented
(Open for over two months!)

One bad impression with an emerging developer is enough to make them
decide to use a less elegant javascript framework (ahem... Prototype).

*jumps in his soap box and sails away to the golden shores of jQuery*

MX3Design

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Oct 3, 2008, 5:33:30 AM10/3/08
to MooTools Users
..and if they want a framework which doesn't alter beyond recognition
between versions... LISTEN

How many design businesses do you seriously think will waste time
rewriting hundreds of scripts with each version release? The MT team
need to work in the real world instead of providing a totally
ridiculous, impractical and stupid model.

I haven't used MT since the 1.2 release, nor have any of my team. It's
unlikely we'll use it again unless a backward compatibility assurance
is both given and provided.

reinhard

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Oct 3, 2008, 6:07:59 AM10/3/08
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Just curious, what are your contributions to make all those things
happen? The last time when I looked for the license, Mootools was open
source and I'm sure that contributions are welcome.

--
Reinhard

Iván N Paz

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Oct 3, 2008, 7:12:30 AM10/3/08
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give it up reinhard... its worthless... ;-) dont waste your time...

guys, remember, this list is not the right place for this, redirect
all your complaints to mootools...@googlegroups.com

MX3Design

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Oct 3, 2008, 11:24:40 AM10/3/08
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@Reinhard
If you look through the old forums you'll find I posted solutions and
code snippets, admittedly not much but you'll find some. You'll find
that if people are helped they are far more likely in turn to help,
that's human nature. As an example of how to care for, and how to
create a real community take a look through these forums:
http://expressionengine.com/forums/ there is very little bickering or
unpleasantness, everyone just concentrates on answering questions and
sharing solutions.

@Ivan
That's a typical Mootools response. Arrogant, unfriendly and unhelpful
and that about sums up my experience of the Mootools community.

You guys go and play with your toy. There's nothing I've seen Mootools
do that can't be realised in a different framework just ask yourselves
this:
1. What is the point in developing a product that few people use?
2. Why are few people using it?

Tom Occhino

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Oct 3, 2008, 11:54:33 AM10/3/08
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> 1. What is the point in developing a product that few people use?

Again... for our own personal use

> 2. Why are few people using it?

Because it doesn't fit their needs.

We develop MooTools for ourselves... if others find it useful,
awesome, we encourage them to use it as well. Why is it so hard for
you to understand this.

MX3Design, I hate to have to say this, but please, refrain from
posting to the mailing list anymore. Stop calling our users arrogant
and unfriendly, and stop picking fights for no reason. If you are not
happy here, no one is forcing you to stay. Your comments have been
neither constructive, nor helpful. We all have full time jobs, and a
ton of other things going on, and don't have time to cater to your
every whim.

That being said, to the MooTools users out there who do find the
framework useful... I promise I'll always work my hardest to
incorporate the best code and all of my knowledge into the framework
as I possibly can. Even though I'm not getting paid to put 30+ hours
a week into this, I do it because I love it, and I am committed to
providing the best possible toolkit for myself, and those who find it
useful.

Seriously... we are not at war with each other, or with any other
framework. How come all the framework authors understand this, but
seemingly, none of the users get it?

Iván N Paz

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Oct 3, 2008, 12:15:42 PM10/3/08
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this is useless... please tom, refrain yourself with dealing with such
comments.... go on, keep coding and nevermind this...

Reinhard, Im no mootools developer, im just a regular mooUser....
arrogant??/ Why? Because Im not whining like you guys do??? stop it...
ask smth, you will get a response... hey.. I have found ALL MY ANSWERS
here.... Ive never cared if there is or isnt an "official forum" or
the like... just ask, you will get a response...

I Love mootools, im right now comparing it to other frameworks as
well... I guess I will stick to mootools mainly, and will
bring/transcode everything I find (and can) in other frameworks to
make it useful in mootools as well... I give a d... if theres a forum
or not.. this is as good as anything else to share ideas/questions or
anyting

STOP THE WHINING ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!

MX3Design

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Oct 3, 2008, 12:40:30 PM10/3/08
to MooTools Users
I will stop posting but I'm not picking a fight for no reason: The
Mootools project has wasted a lot of my businesses time, hundreds of
hours of development. Why? You moved the goal posts, by not factoring
in backward compatibility you threw the principles of IoC out of the
window. Defining MT as a framework is a blatant misrepresentation.

Iván N Paz

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Oct 3, 2008, 1:09:19 PM10/3/08
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great!!! byeee!!!!!! ;-)

MX3Design

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Oct 3, 2008, 1:55:08 PM10/3/08
to MooTools Users
Grow up.

Wolfe Stuff

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Oct 3, 2008, 2:32:21 PM10/3/08
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Just wanted to throw in the link for backwards compatibility layer that has been floating around since 1.2:

http://digitarald.de/journal/38150523/mootools-1-1-to-1-2-compatibility-layer/

nutron

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Oct 3, 2008, 3:04:10 PM10/3/08
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Agreed. There is a compatibility layer. It's about 95% effective if you only use the documented features in the library. The few breaking changes that aren't backwards compatibility (I'm not even 100% sure there are any) are usually rather low-level stuff that most people don't use.

As for the thread here and how unproductive it is, I'd also like to chime in and request that everyone please be civil to one another. Say something nice, or help someone else.

Aaron


On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 11:32 AM, consideropen <ml-user%2B55907-680583227@...> wrote:
Just wanted to throw in the link for backwards compatibility layer that has been floating around since 1.2:

http://digitarald.de/journal/38150523/mootools-1-1-to-1-2-compatibility-layer/

The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com CNET Clientside: clientside.cnet.com


View this message in context: Re: What's going on in MooTools...
Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

CroNiX

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Oct 3, 2008, 5:02:11 PM10/3/08
to MooTools Users
I just wanted to throw this in the mix as I find it very applicable.
The following quote is from Derek Jones, the main developer of
CodeIgniter, regarding criticism of CI. Very similar to a lot of what
is going on with mootools....

--- start quote ---

The problem here is that some individuals think that we need to
share their priorities, and none other. And when we do not share their
priorities, they want to know what our priorities are so they can
argue with us about them. We will not be handing out wrenches and
hammers to people just because they stamp their feet and tell us what
great builders they are. We are not accountable, nor should be
expected to stop and look at everything you build, and comment in
detail on why it’s not something we want to use, or doesn’t fit with
our goals for the framework. We have the pleasant luxury of building
the community that we strive for, and not to try to pander to every
audience or person.

We are artists. Not corporate hounds. We do not operate with org
charts, deadlines, or investor pressure. All of the highly talented
individuals at EllisLab work organically, with a clear view of the
destination, and no streets or road signs to micro-manage our path
there. Like it or not, that’s who EllisLab is, and it’s how we make
terrific products. That’s not changing. Essentially, you need to
decide whether you like what EllisLab produces, how we work, and
hopefully enjoy what’s being freely given to you.

We each have lives, careers, and families. Spending our time away
from those important things to read and reply to every single post is
not a realistic expectation that anyone should have from any of us.
Yes, us. You only see Derek Allard around the forums, but it’s quite
presumptuous to think that that means that he or Rick are the only
people reading and giving attention to CI.

Thankfully, the majority of the members of this community are
mature, reasonable people who we enjoy collaborating with. However, we
will not be tolerant of hostile and unproductive bad-mouthing of the
framework, Rick, Derek, or anyone at EllisLab on our own forums. If
you do not like the way we work, skip the unproductive negativity and
go join a community that is more inline with your needs (perhaps this
is why RoR has no public forums).

-- end quote --

CroNiX

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Oct 3, 2008, 5:04:34 PM10/3/08
to MooTools Users
I guess they are 'arrogant' too.

AwesomeSauce

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Oct 4, 2008, 11:00:45 AM10/4/08
to MooTools Users
MX3Designs comments WERE constructive and I dare say a MAJORITY of the
Mootools community would echo his sentiments.

The way this conversation has been handled is enough for me to stop
using Mootools I'm embarrassed to have my work associated with this
kind of mentality.

On Oct 3, 10:09 am, "Iván N Paz" <ivann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> great!!! byeee!!!!!! ;-)

reinhard

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Oct 4, 2008, 11:50:09 AM10/4/08
to MooTools Users
On Oct 4, 5:00 pm, AwesomeSauce <hansoksend...@gmail.com> wrote:
> MX3Designs comments WERE constructive and I dare say a MAJORITY of the
> Mootools community would echo his sentiments.

Yes, he had some good points but formulating them as claims isn't
really helpful. For my taste this style lacks of appreciation that
some folks have dedicated thousands of hours of their spare time to
make Mootools happen.

--
Reinhard

nutron

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Oct 4, 2008, 3:22:39 PM10/4/08
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I'd just like to say that any community has its fair share of people who
cannot conduct themselves in a civil manner. Rather than get too bent out of
shape when this stuff happens, I suggest that you just move on. I don't like
to see any member of our community leave and use another framework because
they encountered someone in the forums that rub them the wrong way.

Aaron

"If you can't say something nice, go help someone else."


-----
The MooTools Tutorial: http://www.mootorial.com www.mootorial.com
CNET Clientside: http://clientside.cnet.com clientside.cnet.com
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/What%27s-going-on-in-MooTools...-tp1094017p1213105.html

Iván N Paz

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Oct 4, 2008, 4:42:58 PM10/4/08
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Its really sad that some guys really need a community behind some
tool/framework in orther to use it... really sad... (though I still
understand part of it)

For me.. I dont give a heck if the people around here are snob (not
that I have found anyone but the whiners themself)...

Mootools Its a great framework, better, worse, whatever... I just
happen to like it... a lot...

Would I care if most posts here are about *oh, I miss the forums*,
*oh, I NEED the forums* , '*Oh, you mootoolers are snobs*"..
etc......???????

Answer: NO, I dont give a damn, this is a pretty good framework aside
from all its users comments...

So, if you ever decide to stop using a framework.. JUST because its
community is (add whatever despective adjective here), man...... you
are just as lost as you could ever be....

About this post of mine:

On Oct 3, 10:09 am, "Iván N Paz" <ivann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> great!!! byeee!!!!!! ;-)

I just regret it, and would love to take it back... I just cant... I
was brought into it :-(

ps. Actually I would love to take back all of my posts regarding this
issue altogether... this is nonsense, and should be happening....

ps2. Most of the whiners... what is their claim???? Have they asked
for smth and havent gotten their answer or what????

tombmedia

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Oct 5, 2008, 2:39:45 AM10/5/08
to MooTools Users
I don't know where you are located mx3design, but if you are in the
states I'd like to see if there is some sort of legal action we can
take towards mootools for fraudulently advertising mootools as a
product when it is clearly a hobby for a select few individuals. I am
a businessman and can prove losses directly related to the bait and
switch that the mootools elite did when they figured mootools as a
product was too much work. It was initially toted as a production
level framework and with that there are certain expectations of the
team behind the product, which has totally come to light as being
immature, naive (as you've stated), and downright intentionally
malicious. I am located in Canada, and if anyone lives in any of the
countries that the mootool developers live in please contact me so
that we can pool our resources to see what we can do. My losses are in
the 5 digits and would be willing to spend at least that to teach this
kids why hobbies and business don't mix.

I already have my lawyer digging to see what kind of faults they may
have committed, I'm not to sure if anything can happen with the way
things are licensed, but I doubt these kids spent money on a lawyer
themselves.

Guillermo Rauch

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Oct 5, 2008, 10:07:27 AM10/5/08
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THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN
THE SOFTWARE.

- By the way, thanks for the laugh. You made my day.

Guillermo Rauch

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Oct 5, 2008, 10:10:09 AM10/5/08