How can I help

[Nelak]

Got really interested on this project since I own a PS3 and I code C#.
Thought it might be a nice way to get myself to learn more about
Gaming Industry, and visual programming.
Please tell how can I be of help to the project :D

[Koichi Senada]

Hello there, Nelak!
I suppose you were about to reply to my discussion topic "Will
Mono.Xna run on Playstation 3?"
http://groups.google.com/group/monoxna/t/809fc06c27ff31fe?hl=en-GB
But occasionally created a new topic instead.
Otherwise, which project do you mean, and how visual programming is
related?
I'm very intrested about running .NET/Mono applications on PS3, too.
Though, there's not much of information about that online.

Though, there are some related projects.
One of them is CrossNet, you can check out the site and PS3 related
thread:
http://www.codeplex.com/crossnet
http://www.codeplex.com/crossnet/Thread/View.aspx?ThreadId=28058

[Gaston Cababie]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I'm interested in both parts, helping with the Mono.Xna, because I would like to learn about graphics engine and
that kind of stuff, and also being able to run Mono.Xna code on linux on the PS3.
On the Visual Arts side, I think it would be nice to have a .Net implementation of the <a href="http://www.processing.org">Processing</a> language
I'm checking out the Visual Shell SDK documentation right now ;)

[Koichi Senada]

Gaston, are you the Nelak?
Maybe you're still not clear enough.

http://www.processing.org/ is a website of a language, which is based
on Java.
There's not much of information on its technologies used, but from
what I see it requires Java and runs only with Java.
I don't think anybody's going to end up with a .NET imlementation of a
Java based solution.
I've managed to find just a single screenshot of Processing IDE:
http://processing.org/reference/environment/index.html
I can say I don't like it. Too few of a core technical information.
Saying that it runs on Win/Linux/Mac isn't enough for a serious
project.
What has made you think of it, what are its exclusive opportunities /
abilities?

What is "Visual Shell SDK"? The closest thing that google knows about
it are "Visual Studio SDK" and "Shell-Based Applications".

I think we both should learn writing Mono.Xna applications first, so
that we can help with its further development.
Or we could learn some PS3 architecture and programming. :)

> > I'm very intrested about running .NET/Mono applications on PS3, too.

[Nelak]

Yes processing is actually a programming language aimed at visual
artists, it tries to simplify complex programming process in simple
lines of code.
The things I've seen running on processing are quite nice. What I was
thinking making an IDE and an implementation of this language on
the .Net platform.
Maybe we could use Silverlight to enable web interaction. On the other
hand the Visual Shell SDK (I think this was the name), provides you
with the ability of customizing the VS IDE, e.g. there's an IronPython
IDE written around this over CodePlex. With it you can build
VSPackages that integrate on the IDE or write your own Isolated Shell
as they call it and customize it to your needs. This would gives us
the ability to add Debugging and other really nice features to the
language also.
I was thinking that if we did a implementation of the Processing
language in .Net we could use the Mono.Xna as the underlying engine.
That's why I would like to help on the implementation of the Mono.Xna.
Hope this makes it clearer. :D

On May 26, 3:13 am, Koichi Senada <KoichiSen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gaston, are you the Nelak?
> Maybe you're still not clear enough.
>

> http://www.processing.org/is a website of a language, which is based

[Koichi Senada]

Well, from what I see, Processing Language ( http://processing.org/reference/index_ext.html
) is somewhat based on Java.
It has just implemented the most popular procedures into functions, so
that a programmer makes a call with a set of parameters, the the code
is executed.
Maybe this can be rewritten from Java to .NET J#, then any
compatible .NET language can use those classes/objects/methods/etc.
I belive you can forget about Processing, since the same things can be
implemented with Microsoft.Xna / Mono.Xna easily, or at least they
have been created for the same tasks, to simplify 2D/3D graphics and
multimedia programming to few lines of code.
That's how the things work, you have a hardware (GPU), then drivers
for low-level ops, then a graphics library (Direct3D/OpenGL/etc) to
make calls to device drivers and for other device-related tasks, then
a higher level library/engine to make standard things (initialize/
deinitalize/etc) easier. Then you want another higher-level library/
engine to make other things as easy as single line call, which is good
for rapid applications development :)
Though, you might tell more things about what's hidden inside of
Processing Language and its IDE.
But what's Visual Shell SDK, where have you downloaded it?

What I'm looking for is just a list of available .NET libraries for
different platforms and hardware types.
Microsoft.Xna / Mono.Xna look promising, though I can't see it working
on PS3.
My idea is to create another multimedia/game engine of a Visual
Programming type and envelop the most required tasks into building
blocks.
You can see the same approach in many Visual Programming Language
engines.
http://www.popfly.com/ - Microsoft Popfly (with visual tools for
mashups and gadgets).
http://www.popfly.com/gamecreator/ - Microsoft Popfly Game Creator
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/robotics/default.aspx - Microsoft
Robotics (with VPL).
http://www.virtools.com/ - Dassault Systemes Virtools Dev (with VPL).

[Nelak]

Here's a link to the Visual Studio SDK documentation:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/de-de/library/bb166441.aspx
Download link:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=30402623-93ca-479a-867c-04dc45164f5b&displaylang=en
And on the Visual Arts stuff, this is what got me really interested.
"Domain-Specific Language Tools

You can use a domain-specific language for a specific task in a fixed-
problem domain. This makes it different from a general-purpose
language. By using Domain-Specific Language Tools, you can build
customized modeling tools. You can define a modeling language and
implement it very simply. For example, you can create a specialized
language that describes a user interface, a business process, a
database, or the flow of information. Then you can generate code from
those descriptions.

You can use Domain-Specific Language Tools to generate visual
designers that are customized for your problem domain. For example,
you can create a tool to describe concepts that are specific to how
your organization models business processes. If you are building a
state chart tool, you can describe what a state is, what properties a
state has, what kinds of states exist, how transitions between states
are defined, and so on. A state chart that describes the status of
contracts in an insurance company is superficially similar to a state
chart that describes user interaction among pages on a Web site.
However, the underlying concepts between the two state charts will
differ significantly. By creating your own domain-specific language
and custom-generated designer, you can specify exactly what state
chart concepts you need in your tool."

My idea on the processing side, would be to make the language run with
the CLR, and use the Mono.Xna as the underlying engine.
Of course I'm interested in any other Visual Arts implementation since
I don't have to much background in graphics engines, etc.
I would gladly help in any kind of project since it will further my
knowledge on the subject.
Do you know what's the status of the Mono.Xna project?
Since from the whole list you are the only one that's been replying to
my posts.


On May 27, 6:57 am, Koichi Senada <KoichiSen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, from what I see, Processing Language (http://processing.org/reference/index_ext.html

> engines.http://www.popfly.com/- Microsoft Popfly (with visual tools for

> mashups and gadgets).http://www.popfly.com/gamecreator/- Microsoft Popfly Game Creatorhttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/robotics/default.aspx- Microsoft

> Robotics (with VPL).http://www.virtools.com/- Dassault Systemes Virtools Dev (with VPL).

[Koichi Senada]

Nelak, that's just what I've thought, the Visual Shell SDK isn't
there.
Instead, there is the widely known Visual Studio SDK.
I'm sure that SDK will be of use for you.

You're writing ultimately clear about domain-specific languages.
But it would be a horrible problem if we would have a different
language for every different problem-specific domain.
I just can't imagine myself learning a completely new language, even a
trivial one, every time that I need to solve another problem.
Instead, there are such things like libraries, assemblies, namespaces,
etc, to distinguish the problem-specific domains from each other.
For example, you can be sure that Microsoft.Xna.Framework namespace/
assembly serves the graphics/multimedia domain only, System.Data
serves ADO.NET and other data only, etc.
It's much better to have only one language to learn and master, with
namespace/assembly sets for every problem-specific domain.
That's why I like .NET :)
Once I finish up reading "Programming C# 3.0", by Jesse Liberty,
Donald Xie ( http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596527433/ ), and some
of MSDN related to .NET, I'll start writing some applications or
assemblies, becouse I've written only just a few 3dsMax plugin classes
so far yet. But I already know that I have a single language to learn,
which is C#, alot of existing assemblies (by Microsoft, MonoProject,
etc), and possibility to create new assemblies, and even the ability
to call COM API from a .NET application.

What language would you want to run with CLR?
What type of end-user applications do you want to have with it?

Actually I don't know what's the current status of Mono.Xna project.
I'll be checking it out when I'm ready to examine the sources.
Anyway, they've done alot of work, though I hope they'll continue
working on it.
Meanwhile, I'm learning, to be capable with helping in future.

[Nelak]

Since Processing seems to be good for Visual Art projects I thought of
rewriting it to work on .Net
and handle all the low level calls through Mono.Xna or something
similar, you have to take into account that processing is language
that more oriented towards graphic designers and others and not to
developers.
What I would like to do eventually is create a bridge between
developers and visual artists where the visual artist just has to take
care
of the visual stuff and not coding.
All this I've been talking about is just pure thought right now, even
though eventually I would like start working on some kind of project
like this.
Do you know if there's anyone on the Mono Team we could talk to see
where the Mono.Xna is heading or get more insight on the project?

On May 28, 1:31 am, Koichi Senada <KoichiSen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nelak, that's just what I've thought, the Visual Shell SDK isn't
> there.
> Instead, there is the widely known Visual Studio SDK.
> I'm sure that SDK will be of use for you.
>
> You're writing ultimately clear about domain-specific languages.
> But it would be a horrible problem if we would have a different
> language for every different problem-specific domain.
> I just can't imagine myself learning a completely new language, even a
> trivial one, every time that I need to solve another problem.
> Instead, there are such things like libraries, assemblies, namespaces,
> etc, to distinguish the problem-specific domains from each other.
> For example, you can be sure that Microsoft.Xna.Framework namespace/
> assembly serves the graphics/multimedia domain only, System.Data
> serves ADO.NET and other data only, etc.
> It's much better to have only one language to learn and master, with
> namespace/assembly sets for every problem-specific domain.
> That's why I like .NET :)
> Once I finish up reading "Programming C# 3.0", by Jesse Liberty,

> Donald Xie (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596527433/), and some

[Koichi Senada]

Nelak, do you want visual artists to have a little to code or nothing
to code at all?
A little of code means creation of new classes and methods, which
would be more specific than just graphics.
But if you want artists to have nothing to code, you need just a
single application like those famous ones by Adobe and others.
If you want artists to perform some tasks by calling trivial commands
similar to DOS prompt, you could implement that by JIT scripts.
I guess I should see some demos and IDE of Processing, or some more of
screenshots at least.

http://code.google.com/p/monoxna/source/browse
http://groups.google.com/group/monoxna/files
These two links show that there's nothing going on since 2007.02.15,
though there's alot done.
Could this be due to nothing to improve anymore?

I just keep reading the book to examine the sources later.
In either case, my primary platform is Windows, so for some time
Microsoft .NET Framework and XNA Framework should be enough for me.
Along the way I will keep my eye on porting .NET applications to other
platforms.