Re: [Monbiot] Digest for monbiot-discuss@googlegroups.com - 11 Messages in 2 Topics
Andrew Inglis
go about using it, (hilly, 35 m of slope in 280 meters, high rainfall
about 1100 mm per annum, windy and a few trees. digfficult even with
tractor or machinery (I have invested in nothing yet) let alone walk
behind rotary hoes.Stock like horese or oxen need constant attention,
machinery can work odd hours and can be loaned out (animals less easy
to loan out (human/ animal dynamics!!) but far from impossible).
papanek looked at many of these issues in design for the real world.
kropotkin had heaps on manures and relating productivity of urban
hinterlands and animal use. The present day breeds might need to be
reviewed as many 'specialised" breeds of farming animals might have
to be re-evolved. The genetic diversity and adaptation is cultural
heritage even if offending to some folk. there awas avery inetersting
discussiuon about wagon design and the adaptability of local variants,
the rich mix of skills in most communities (as still seems fairly
common knowledge in rural areas) and the general willingness to lend a
hand solving day-to-day problems. There is also plenty of literature
which suggests animals in urban settings created huge foul waste
problems in the past, although horses and carst were common in he
1950's and early 1960's when I was a lad in Melbourne and ice, bread,
vegetables and even the buthcer had aroving horse and covered dray.
I know, I must getting long in the tooth, but some of this could be
re-considered , if only traffic were calmed. Imagine horse trails back
in the planning schemes and the legal wrangles that could arise!!.
that is probably off topic, but manure for thought.
inglis
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 7:43 AM, <monbiot...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Today's Topic Summary
>
> Group: http://groups.google.com/group/monbiot-discuss/topics
>
> horse power? [7 Updates]
> top soil and carbon. [4 Updates]
>
> horse power?
>
> jonnyz <jonatha...@gmail.com> Dec 15 05:59PM -0800
>
> Oxen are more efficient? They are certainly slower, and can only work
> somewhat more than half as many hours in a day. The are typically
> yoked to pull from the top of the shoulders, or from their foreheads,
> and good, heavy oxen are tall, whereas horses pull from the front of
> their shoulders, so your point about draft isn't so clear, not that
> that has anything to do with the efficiency of using them or horses.
> Irregardless of what should or shouldn't be the efficiency of their
> digestive systems, the rations you feed them wouldn't be nearly as
> different as the amount of work they do. The oxen will be lower
> maintenance in some ways, but the horse will probably give you more
> years of work for the training, and can be trained to a finer degree
> of responsiveness. Working with oxen usually requires one person to
> drive them and another to sit on the implement, whereas horses are
> worked, typically, by just the one person. Mules are better than both.
>
>
>
>
> Kuttappan Vijayachandran <kvij...@gmail.com> Dec 16 03:22PM +0530
>
> Why such pessimism, when man is learning the art of living in larger and
> larger collectives, rather rapidly
> K Vijayachandran?
>
>
> --
> K Vijayachandran
> Cell phone:91-9447174015
> Partner and Chief Consultant,
> Industries Research and Services
> www.industries-research.co.in
>
>
>
> Roger Priddle <roger....@gmail.com> Dec 16 07:07AM -0500
>
> Hmmm - this brings up an interesting point. Are collectives a better
> basis for society than...(what's the opposite? entrepreneurialism?)
>
> Given that the society I grew up in stressed individualism, I'm not
> sure that I'm happy with the idea of a "collectivist" society. Maybe
> a "co-operative"...?
>
> Then of course you run into the whole issue of the difference between
> the political theory and the way it has been practiced.
>
> Something to talk about on those winter nights...
>
> Roger.
>
>
> --
> Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the
> music. (George Carlin)
>
> First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you,
> then you win. (Mahatma Gandhi)
>
> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed individuals
> can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!
> (Margaret Meade)
>
>
>
> Duncan Hewitt <dun...@kopperdrake.co.uk> Dec 16 12:27PM
>
> Individualism tends to nurture creativity and new-thinking. At the
> extreme it throws the baby out with the bath-water. Collectivism tends
> to become a design-by-committee affair, and therefore moves slowly and
> surely, but tends to stifle creativity and new ideas.
>
> We need something of both - smaller societies that can be both
> reactionary when faced with new problems (and these will happen), and
> also collective - in that the society works towards its reactive stance
> as a united front.
>
> I've always wondered that nothing works better than a dictator with
> empathy and the lack of want for power other than the power to see the
> people survive. It's just not often that happens. Most want power for
> power's sake, or become blind to the needs of the people.
>
> On 16/12/2011 12:07, Roger Priddle wrote:
>
>
>
> Kuttappan Vijayachandran <kvij...@gmail.com> Dec 16 06:30PM +0530
>
> Tolerable size of the collective is a key question. Technology as well as
> culture had played a role in discovering and deciding the size. We have now
> experimented with nations and nation states for several centuries, thanks
> to the industrial revolution, and the UNO based on the principle of
> peaceful coexistence of diverse cultures is a relatively new experiment.
> Larger and larger collectives built on the strength of this experience as
> well as the ongoing ICT revolution will decide on the destiny of mankind.
> Such a possibility is part of human consciousness of the new century. That
> is the my reason for distancing myself the debate on animal power.
> K Vijayachandran
>
>
> --
> K Vijayachandran
> Cell phone:91-9447174015
> Partner and Chief Consultant,
> Industries Research and Services
> www.industries-research.co.in
>
>
>
> "Lila Smith" <lil...@ihug.co.nz> Dec 17 05:24AM +1300
>
> If we can't convince people that
>> they need to all jump on this band wagon, then the anarchy that will
>> possibly ensue afterwards will be our downfall. We need grassroot
>> community projects *now*,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Well we don't need to look far to see the result of shrinking economies,
> look at the countries right now who are suffering riots and marches and
> problems? - and this is the beginning?. doesn't take much imagination to
> imagine 20 fold and the chaos that will ensue.
> if we ever need individualism, and organised grassroots small local
> economies, we need them now.
> what is more the food production in the future will be far more labour
> intensive, man will do the work.
> That's how it was in the beginning, and that will be the answer in the end.
>
> Lila Smith
> www.windwand.co.nz
> Taranaki Tourism Website
> www.windwand.co.nz/organickitchengarden.htm
> Organic Kitchen Gardening
> Mob 021230 7962
> 06 7512942
> 201 Omata Road
> New Plymouth
> New Zealand
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Duncan Hewitt
> To: monbiot...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 1:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Monbiot] Re: horse power?
>
>
> Individualism tends to nurture creativity and new-thinking. At the extreme
> it throws the baby out with the bath-water. Collectivism tends to become a
> design-by-committee affair, and therefore moves slowly and surely, but tends
> to stifle creativity and new ideas.
>
> We need something of both - smaller societies that can be both reactionary
> when faced with new problems (and these will happen), and also collective -
> in that the society works towards its reactive stance as a united front.
>
> I've always wondered that nothing works better than a dictator with empathy
> and the lack of want for power other than the power to see the people
> survive. It's just not often that happens. Most want power for power's sake,
> or become blind to the needs of the people.
>
> On 16/12/2011 12:07, Roger Priddle wrote:
> Hmmm - this brings up an interesting point. Are collectives a better
> basis for society than...(what's the opposite? entrepreneurialism?)
>
> Given that the society I grew up in stressed individualism, I'm not
> sure that I'm happy with the idea of a "collectivist" society. Maybe
> a "co-operative"...?
>
> Then of course you run into the whole issue of the difference between
> the political theory and the way it has been practiced.
>
> Something to talk about on those winter nights...
>
> Roger.
>
> On 12/16/11, Kuttappan Vijayachandran <kvij...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why such pessimism, when man is learning the art of living in larger and
> larger collectives, rather rapidly
> K Vijayachandran?
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:29 AM, jonnyz <jonatha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oxen are more efficient? They are certainly slower, and can only work
> somewhat more than half as many hours in a day. The are typically
> yoked to pull from the top of the shoulders, or from their foreheads,
> and good, heavy oxen are tall, whereas horses pull from the front of
> their shoulders, so your point about draft isn't so clear, not that
> that has anything to do with the efficiency of using them or horses.
> Irregardless of what should or shouldn't be the efficiency of their
> digestive systems, the rations you feed them wouldn't be nearly as
> different as the amount of work they do. The oxen will be lower
> maintenance in some ways, but the horse will probably give you more
> years of work for the training, and can be trained to a finer degree
> of responsiveness. Working with oxen usually requires one person to
> drive them and another to sit on the implement, whereas horses are
> worked, typically, by just the one person. Mules are better than both.
>
> On Dec 12, 6:16 pm, PAdams3...@aol.com wrote:
> If your going to use a draft animal to plough, the ox is more efficient
> than the horse. Lower centre of gravity and a ruminant, so its a more
> efficient converter of low grade fodder. Horses are fine for pulling
> carts on
> roads.
>
> I dont think we are headed in that direction though. Incredibly labour
> intensive. While we shouldnt need so many people to produce stuff, and
> so many
> crooks to make money out of others labour, we do need well educated
> people
> to work the technology of tomorrow.
>
> The scarce oil will be reserved for agriculture, unless we allow
> billions
> to starve, or billions die of disease (both probable). Mechanised
> agriculture is here to stay - but it doesnt have to be oil or its crop
> substitutes.
> Wood gas, for one, will do.
>
> We could get more efficient in our use of energy in agriculture - cheap
> -
> and I mean very cheap - oil has distorted things over the last few
> decades.
> New techniques and new crops could be developed, which dont demand
> nearly
> so much energy inputs.
>
> Patrick
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Monbiot Discussions" group.
> To post to this group, send email to monbiot...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> monbiot-discu...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/monbiot-discuss?hl=en.
>
>
>
> --
> K Vijayachandran
> Cell phone:91-9447174015
> Partner and Chief Consultant,
> Industries Research and Services
> www.industries-research.co.in
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Monbiot Discussions" group.
> To post to this group, send email to monbiot...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> monbiot-discu...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/monbiot-discuss?hl=en.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Monbiot Discussions" group.
> To post to this group, send email to monbiot...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> monbiot-discu...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/monbiot-discuss?hl=en.
>
>
>
> Duncan Hewitt <dun...@kopperdrake.co.uk> Dec 16 04:41PM
>
> I agree Lila - it frustrates me though that those, even on a local
> level, who wield the power, tend to - especially around here - be
> retired, relatively affluent, and relatively unscathed by the current
> economic situation. These people don't want their boat rocking, tend not
> to look past their 10 or 20 years or so left unless it's a cause dear to
> them - the new park benches, the condition of the church roof, how many
> dog litter bins there are and are they all being used. This is the
> reason I have pulled out of our local parish council - my voice was,
> although politely heard, pretty ineffectual, or so it felt. My time,
> apart from going towards nurturing the new orchard and growing crops for
> our own consumption, will now be put into the local Transition Town
> group who, although again largely made up of relatively affluent middle
> class people, are at least pushing for community growing projects,
> pushing in one direction, and, well - at least they're bloody pushing!
> This can be such a positive experience, but I have felt my time in the
> last two years on the PC has been bashing my head against a wall. The
> time to leave dawned on me as I spent a Sunday afternoon checking a
> fence around a PC owned lake to make sure no more dog walkers had cut
> the wire, followed by rocking grave stones in the local cemetery to make
> sure they wouldn't fall over.
>
> Nope - next month is mixing with like-minded people and efforts put into
> other projects - the Transition group has so far convinced their local
> grade 1 listed church to install solar panels, they are in the process
> of setting up a 20 acre community orchard, taking families to a forest
> garden set up in order to spread the work, and generally being proactive.
>
> Duncan
>
> On 16/12/2011 16:24, Lila Smith wrote:
>
>
>
> top soil and carbon.
>
> jonnyz <jonatha...@gmail.com> Dec 15 05:40PM -0800
>
> Actually, it's rotten advice. How much fuel are you going to spend
> mulching an entire field? Your result will be a nitrogen deficit until
> everything breaks down. Then you will have a bumper crop of weeds to
> out compete anything you plant, er, broadcast on top. Of course if you
> are gardening a tiny plot, you can hand weed, but you cannot farm like
> that. If you really want to eliminate cultivation, well, good luck
> with that, but there is no reason to prefer spreading volumes of plant
> material over compost.
>
> Roger, "no-till" is a movement promoted by big agriculture, convincing
> some large scale producers that cultivation can be replaced by
> additional applications of herbicides and fertilizer. I'm not talking
> about the one straw revolution, but its author had the advantage of
> flooding his fields to purge them and soften the soil.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roger Priddle <roger....@gmail.com> Dec 15 10:17PM -0500
>
> Jon - thanks for this. Your comment (and Lila's) points out that nothing
> is simple, that the Law of Unintended Consequences is ever with us. Also,
> seems to indicate that the "One size fits all" solution is not actually
> very common, that many solutions may be applicable to similar (but not
> identical) situations.
>
> I might argue that there are NO identical situations, but that would
> require expertise I just don't have.
>
> If nothing else, this thread is reminding me of the benefit to having as
> many potential solutions as possible available. It also reminds me of the
> saying, "it's amazing how everything looks like a nail if the only tool you
> have is a hammer."
>
> I'm quite sure that the solutions that would work for me - in Central
> Ontario where a sub-freezing winter is about to set in, on the edge of
> pre-Cambrian shield, with shallow highly-acid soil - might be very
> different that appropriate solutions for someone even 200 miles south of
> here, let alone in Western England, or New South Wales or Buenos Aires.
>
> That's what I like about these discussions - physical reality meets
> philosophy meets wants and needs.
>
> Roger.
>
>
> --
> Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music.
> (George Carlin)
>
> First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then
> you win. (Mahatma Gandhi)
>
> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed individuals can
> change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has! (Margaret
> Meade)
>
>
>
> "Lila Smith" <lil...@ihug.co.nz> Dec 16 08:33PM +1300
>
> well its not bad advice at all, first of all I said this the way the world
> developed, this is the way that nature makes its statement, how can you
> ignore nature, you are talking modern mixed with old world, don't think for
> one moment that I AM WRONG...take advice from mother nature, for thousands
> of years mother nature provided everything and then along came man who
> wanted to produce more, and from that came the thought that ploughs were
> needed, it is because the process is fastened, think about
> it............................ just for one moment think about is, and we
> have the culture that is developed from modern man..but take one second to
> think about how mother nature would replenish the top soil and it is far
> from what your mindset is..we have to return to mother nature of thinking
> and you are talking about producing for thousands, I am TALKING THE OLD
> WORLD NOT MODERN THINKING..how wrong can you be to keep thinking we can
> produce more than mother nature can provide on a singular basis..you INSTEAD
> ARE THINKING MONEY MAKING. ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY MAKING IN MY BOOK ITS ABOUT
> LOVING THE LAND YOU LIVE ON..END OF STORY.
> ITS ABOUT SURVIVING THE NUCLEAR WINTER WE ARE HEADING FOR BELIEVE IT OR
> BELIEVE IT NOT..........
> Lila Smith
> www.windwand.co.nz
> Taranaki Tourism Website
> www.windwand.co.nz/organickitchengarden.htm
> Organic Kitchen Gardening
> Mob 021230 7962
> 06 7512942
> 201 Omata Road
> New Plymouth
> New Zealand
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jonnyz" <jonatha...@gmail.com>
> To: "Monbiot Discussions" <monbiot...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 2:40 PM
> Subject: [Monbiot] Re: top soil and carbon.
>
>
> Actually, it's rotten advice. How much fuel are you going to spend
> mulching an entire field? Your result will be a nitrogen deficit until
> everything breaks down. Then you will have a bumper crop of weeds to
> out compete anything you plant, er, broadcast on top. Of course if you
> are gardening a tiny plot, you can hand weed, but you cannot farm like
> that. If you really want to eliminate cultivation, well, good luck
> with that, but there is no reason to prefer spreading volumes of plant
> material over compost.
>
> Roger, "no-till" is a movement promoted by big agriculture, convincing
> some large scale producers that cultivation can be replaced by
> additional applications of herbicides and fertilizer. I'm not talking
> about the one straw revolution, but its author had the advantage of
> flooding his fields to purge them and soften the soil.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Monbiot Discussions" group.
> To post to this group, send email to monbiot...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> monbiot-discu...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/monbiot-discuss?hl=en.
>
>
>
> DavidT <grap...@tmprinting.ie> Dec 16 09:50AM
>
> Surely it's down to appropriateness? Not everyone supports big ag. and
> of course 'gardening' as opposed to 'farming' is much more productive
> per person hour when trying to equate jobs.
>
> David
>
> On 16 Noll 2011, at 01:40, jonnyz wrote:
>
>
>
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group
> monbiot-discuss.
> You can post via email.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an empty message.
> For more options, visit this group.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Monbiot Discussions" group.
> To post to this group, send email to monbiot...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> monbiot-discu...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/monbiot-discuss?hl=en.
DavidT
There are quite a few YouTube videos about him and he takes part in a
longer feature called "Farming with Nature". He 'farms' high in the
Austrian alps to great effect...
David
Duncan Hewitt
My mum remembers the horse and carts in Birmingham as a child born in '45. Indeed, it was her job to go armed with pan and scoop to the road to pick up the brown gold they dropped for the allotment. A few more on the roads would be a welcome sight, especially if they could deposit in the large poop-bin I'd place conveniently outside ;)
Roger Priddle
thread that we're supposed to be "on"? <grin> This feels more like a
living room conversation, or a series of them...
Where I am (primarily seasonal residences on a beach), fish,
vegetables and ice all came down the sand track in horse-drawn carts
will into the 1950s. And some of the local farmers still remember
what it meant (and what it required) to do those tasks by horse as
opposed to petroleum.
I'm curious why the ox was so little used in North America. The
ox-cart is seen drawing settlers across the land in wagons, but seldom
after that. It's as if they came here knowing about oxen so used them
but changed to horses when they got here and were shown some
significant benefits. <?> Anyone have any knowledge? Any ideas? Any
wild-ass guesses?
Roger.
Duncan Hewitt
It's comforting to know that there are people who remember the horse and cart, and more importantly, know how to use them. An old grower in the local village remembers the parsnips being delivered from our local farm to the village by horse and cart, as he used to help his dad pick them and cart them there!
All supposition, but if I were to go to an unknown country I'd take the least fussiest animals with me - oxen, a good utility chicken, and my wife ;) She can't be that fussy - she married me!
Duncan
Roger Priddle
I remember, years ago, a friend saying that, if I needed to go across
Canada and could choose between riding a horse and walking, that
walking would get me there faster. His point was that recovery from a
hard days work was much faster if you could eat protein than if you
had to graze (the horse, that is.) Perhaps the same is not true if I
have to carry a bunch of stuff but the implications are clear. The
horse is much more specialized and excellent for short bursts but the
recovery time is big. I just never generalized that to use of the
horse as a draft animal. Thanks - I love learning stuff like this.
Roger.