horse power?

[PAdam...@aol.com]

If your going to use a draft animal to plough, the ox is more efficient than the horse. Lower centre of gravity and a ruminant, so its a more efficient converter of low grade fodder. Horses are fine for pulling carts on roads.

 

I dont think we are headed in that direction though. Incredibly labour intensive. While we shouldnt need so many people to produce stuff, and so many crooks to make money out of others labour, we do need well educated people to work the technology of tomorrow.

 

The scarce oil will be reserved for agriculture, unless we allow billions to starve, or billions die of disease (both probable). Mechanised agriculture is here to stay - but it doesnt have to be oil or its crop substitutes. Wood gas, for one, will do.

 

We could get more efficient in our use of energy in agriculture - cheap - and I mean very cheap - oil has distorted things over the last few decades. New techniques and new crops could be developed, which dont demand nearly so much energy inputs.

 

Patrick

[Roger Priddle]

Patrick - thanks for this.  I don't know much about oxen.  I do know that donkey's work well for small carts (but don't know how they're fed.)

Another alternative I've heard about is llamas (or did I spell the wrong one...<oops>)  They (and donkeys, I think) have an added advantage in that they will protect other animals in the field from predators.  I gather they will stomp the heck out of invading coyotes - and wolves?

While I'd like to think oil will be reserved for food, I rather suspect that an appalling amount will go to air flight for rich people, after most has been used as auto fuel by Western society.

Whether "civilization" will survive a drop from 9 billion (expected by 2050) to 1 billion (maximum that can be fed using sustainable agriculture, according to what I've read) - that's an interesting question that the next generation is going to have to try to answer.  Personally, I'm not very optimistic (but I try not to let it show in public...)

Roger

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[jonnyz]

Oxen are more efficient? They are certainly slower, and can only work
somewhat more than half as many hours in a day. The are typically
yoked to pull from the top of the shoulders, or from their foreheads,
and good, heavy oxen are tall, whereas horses pull from the front of
their shoulders, so your point about draft isn't so clear, not that
that has anything to do with the efficiency of using them or horses.
Irregardless of what should or shouldn't be the efficiency of their
digestive systems, the rations you feed them wouldn't be nearly as
different as the amount of work they do. The oxen will be lower
maintenance in some ways, but the horse will probably give you more
years of work for the training, and can be trained to a finer degree
of responsiveness. Working with oxen usually requires one person to
drive them and another to sit on the implement, whereas horses are
worked, typically, by just the one person. Mules are better than both.

[Kuttappan Vijayachandran]

Why such pessimism, when man is learning the art of living in larger and larger collectives, rather rapidly

K Vijayachandran?

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K Vijayachandran
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Partner and Chief Consultant,
Industries Research and Services
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[Roger Priddle]

Hmmm - this brings up an interesting point. Are collectives a better
basis for society than...(what's the opposite? entrepreneurialism?)

Given that the society I grew up in stressed individualism, I'm not
sure that I'm happy with the idea of a "collectivist" society. Maybe
a "co-operative"...?

Then of course you run into the whole issue of the difference between
the political theory and the way it has been practiced.

Something to talk about on those winter nights...

Roger.

--

[Duncan Hewitt]

Individualism tends to nurture creativity and new-thinking. At the extreme it throws the baby out with the bath-water. Collectivism tends to become a design-by-committee affair, and therefore moves slowly and surely, but tends to stifle creativity and new ideas.

We need something of both - smaller societies that can be both reactionary when faced with new problems (and these will happen), and also collective - in that the society works towards its reactive stance as a united front.

I've always wondered that nothing works better than a dictator with empathy and the lack of want for power other than the power to see the people survive. It's just not often that happens. Most want power for power's sake, or become blind to the needs of the people.

[Kuttappan Vijayachandran]

Tolerable size of the collective is a key question. Technology as well as culture had played a role in discovering and deciding the size. We have now experimented with nations and nation states for several centuries, thanks to the industrial revolution, and the UNO based on the principle of peaceful coexistence of diverse cultures is a relatively new experiment. Larger and larger collectives built on the strength of this experience as well as the ongoing ICT revolution will decide on the destiny of mankind. Such a possibility is part of human consciousness of the new century. That is the my reason for distancing myself the debate on animal power.

K Vijayachandran     

[Lila Smith]

If we can't convince people that
> they need to all jump on this band wagon, then the anarchy that will
> possibly ensue afterwards will be our downfall. We need grassroot
> community projects *now*,

---

 

Well we don't need to look far to see the result of shrinking economies, look at the countries right now who are suffering riots and marches and problems?   - and this is the beginning?. doesn't take much imagination to imagine 20 fold and the chaos that will ensue.

if we ever  need individualism, and organised grassroots small local economies, we need them now.

what is more the food production in the future will be far more labour intensive, man will do the work.

That's how it was in the beginning, and that will be the answer in the end.

 

Lila Smith
www.windwand.co.nz
Taranaki Tourism Website
www.windwand.co.nz/organickitchengarden.htm
Organic Kitchen Gardening
Mob 021230 7962
06 7512942
201 Omata Road
New Plymouth
New Zealand

[Duncan Hewitt]

I agree Lila - it frustrates me though that those, even on a local level, who wield the power, tend to - especially around here - be retired, relatively affluent, and relatively unscathed by the current economic situation. These people don't want their boat rocking, tend not to look past their 10 or 20 years or so left unless it's a cause dear to them - the new park benches, the condition of the church roof, how many dog litter bins there are and are they all being used. This is the reason I have pulled out of our local parish council - my voice was, although politely heard, pretty ineffectual, or so it felt. My time, apart from going towards nurturing the new orchard and growing crops for our own consumption, will now be put into the local Transition Town group who, although again largely made up of relatively affluent middle class people, are at least pushing for community growing projects, pushing in one direction, and, well - at least they're bloody pushing! This can be such a positive experience, but I have felt my time in the last two years on the PC has been bashing my head against a wall. The time to leave dawned on me as I spent a Sunday afternoon checking a fence around a PC owned lake to make sure no more dog walkers had cut the wire, followed by rocking grave stones in the local cemetery to make sure they wouldn't fall over.

Nope - next month is mixing with like-minded people and efforts put into other projects - the Transition group has so far convinced their local grade 1 listed church to install solar panels, they are in the process of setting up a 20 acre community orchard, taking families to a forest garden set up in order to spread the work, and generally being proactive.

Duncan

[Lila Smith]

yes that age group worries me also - good on you Duncan, good on you.

I have many older clients and there lack of concern for their grandchildren, worries me, its about 'well I will be dead and gone'

what a mindset eh, what of the grandchildren.....what of them. ?

[Lila Smith]

by the way Duncan we are now providing food for a lot of the family, and they love the baby carrots and all they get.....  I think us younger people need to pave the way, and that is what we are trying to do...we have a farm that is let out but when the time comes the land is there, not just our house, but good land to use.

we are ok.......but what of the thousands that don't have land to play with. I am forging on with individualism, because at the end of the day its about survival of the fittest and the best prepared, we don't lack space that is for sure.

p.s..this year we have literally buckets of tomatoes on the way, all ready for xmas, just dug the potatoes for xmas.....we lack for nothing, but god its intensive as in hours, but well worth it.

[Duncan Hewitt]

Fantastic :) Carrots are the bane of my life - the last two years we've been struck by carrot fly, despite being in a patch of ground free from carrots since ever and surrounding them with marigolds. I've started to build some wooden raised beds to see if that trick works - but I'm envious you have your own. Home-grown carrots are the only ones I really like, the shop-bought ones are far less sweet and often tougher :/

You let a farm out then? I know you moved and started using the garden (front and back, which made me chuckle) - but you have more land you can turn to if needed? That's a great position to be in. I agree - it's a measure of individualism (because none will care for you or yours more than yourself), mixed with cooperation with like-minded individuals and families, because the more hands to the tiller the better.

Buckets of toms? My absolute favourite are toms - which variety do you grow down there? Christmas toms still sounds weird though - and I guess the potatoes are new spuds? We're tucking into our storage bags of spuds now and the toms are over-ready for pulling down in the greenhouse - we had our last green ones about 4 weeks ago - greenhouses are on the (ever-expanding) list :) Like you said - it's intensive, but I can't imagine not doing it now, I'd feel as if I'd lost a piece of me.

Happy picking!

Duncan

[Kuttappan Vijayachandran]

We started with horses, oxen and animal power: Now we discuss tomatoes and the different varieties of carrots. Memories of Alice in Wonderland make me sleepy. Bye!!

K Vijayachandran 

[Lila Smith]

I have most things in raised beds, I have a carrot bed, Kumara and potato bed, the carrots grow much better in the raised beds than the ground and the soil comprises 100 % made compost. tomatoes though are in ground beds.

 

A couple of weeks ago we brought home about 5 bags of chicken manure and mowed the lawns, got heaps of old brown leaves and put a 7 week compost down, Grass, browns, and just one bag of the chicken manure, this is a moisture controlled compost drum, it is the hottest lot of compost I have made, we turn it out weekly, aerate and put it back in the drum, for three weeks now that we have had this made, the steam just oozes from it, this lot will be a very powerful lot of plant food that's for sure - it looks totally delicious.

[Lila Smith]

heres a novel way to prevent carrot fly a row of small mirrors surrounding the bed,
the carrot fly is territorial, and wont lay eggs if competition is in sight, the fly will continuously attack the mirrors eventually exhausting itself

 

I just read this on the net..I don't have a problem with carrot fly, but if I do I will hang a big mirror behind my carrot bed...interestingly it may work.??

[Lila Smith]

I grow Tommy toe, I like that one, about the size of an apricot and large clusters, beautiful eating, very sweet, ripens very early also.

I have a big Russian red tomato, that I was given and have never seen until a couple of years ago, grows a large fruit, looks like a eggplant, that's how big it can get, and the colour is very unusual, deep blood red.

also Riesentraube, literally hangs in bunches, like grapes.

then last but not least, black cherry, now that's an interesting little tomato, black/red in colour and also bunches like grapes.

 

I must admit I don't really grow the normal varieties that are for sale in nurseries.

[Roger Priddle]

I realize this is a slightly dumb question but...

Do you (wherever you are) use the same definitions of "hardiness
zones" as are used in North America? To a great extent, it describes
the kinds of plants and varieties that we can grow. There are
micro-environments - being next to the Great Lakes I'm slightly warmer
through most of the winter but much colder in the spring... The farm
up the hill (1 km from me and the Bay) can easily have frost 3 or 4
weeks before I do.

Just curious.

Roger.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

[PAdam...@aol.com]

In a message dated 16/12/2011 16:41:46 GMT Standard Time, dun...@kopperdrake.co.uk writes:

I agree Lila - it frustrates me though that those, even on a local level, who wield the power, tend to - especially around here - be retired, relatively affluent, and relatively unscathed by the current economic situation. These people don't want their boat rocking, tend not to look past their 10 or 20 years or so left unless it's a cause dear to them - the new park benches, the condition of the church roof, how many dog litter bins there are and are they all being used. This is the reason I have pulled out of our local parish council - my voice was, although politely heard, pretty ineffectual, or so it felt. My time, apart from going towards nurturing the new orchard and growing crops for our own consumption, will now be put into the local Transition Town group who, although again largely made up of relatively affluent middle class people, are at least pushing for community growing projects, pushing in one direction, and, well - at least they're bloody pushing! This can be such a positive experience, but I have felt my time in the last two years on the PC has been bashing my head against a wall. The time to leave dawned on me as I spent a Sunday afternoon checking a fence around a PC owned lake to make sure no more dog walkers had cut the wire, followed by rocking grave stones in the local cemetery to make sure they wouldn't fall over.

Spot on Duncan. I resigned from my PC for similar reasons. This year they have been doing snow drills, following the last 2 winters when the roads became snowbound. Guess what? So far, not a flake of snow, not even a frost. Perhaps they were really doing a mild winter dance. I still have marigolds, nasturtiums and roses in flower, while snowdrops and daffs are pushing up.

 

Democracy is not in a healthy state as you say. Perhaps more education and compulsory voting would help get people connected and involved.

 

Patrick

 

 

[Duncan Hewitt]

At ours it's the flood drills after the great flood of 2001, when a lane in the village was submerged under a foot of water. On the other hand they're contesting the recent Environmental Agency's classification of much of the parish as being in flood plain as they're worried about house prices being affected. Because that's the important thing in the whole story - how much your house is worth...

I do think you're right concerning democracy. Since the corporates took over running ours and others countries, in all but name, I believe people have gradually become disenfranchised from the whole system. The idea that 'Why vote, I won't change anything', is one I always poo-pooed, but these days it's not so much a question of wasting a vote, but just a question of there's no one I want to vote for - they all seem so self-serving or stuck in their own particular ruts. I think that, coupled with the global communications where people can share ideas on an earth-scale, is helping movements like the Transition Town movement gain momentum. Pre-internet, for people to do something perceived as out of the ordinary, you would have to reach a critical mass in order to get it to happen. Now, a few small groups can look at each other across the internet and realise that whilst theyt may be a minority in their own country, their ideas and beliefs are shared by many more across the world, and they won't feel so alone or unusual, giving them the courage, inclination and ability to do their own thing.

So today we have groups of like-minded people, disenchanted with the democratic system, sick of politicians dodging the big questions, deciding to do their own thing. But they know there are a growing number of people locally, nationally and internationally, all doing their own thing too, which happens to be the same thing. They are large enough to affect local government, how long until they can affect national government, if at all? That is the global village I care about - global democracy as opposed to global capitalisation, which is what we currently have. The government no longer feels as though it serves the people, so let us serve ourselves as best we can.

On a side note, my father sits on a community council in Scotland (the equivalent of the English parish councils), and he is also, by proxy, on the village hall committee. As part of the latter, he has been put forward to be the representative for some national village hall group representative, to sit on yet another committee. This committee, which I assume oversees the interests of Scotland's village halls, has a salary drawing chairperson. It doesn't take much to realise that this salary drawing chairperson will no doubt sit on another committee higher up the scale, surrounded by other salaried chairpeople from their own separate committees. We have created a web of committees and groups, many volunteers and some paid, who spend their entire lives chasing and debating issues that keep them busy, but are unnecessarily complicated. At the last meeting he actually stated, whilst sat next to the salaried chairperson, that he was really struggling as to why there was a committee in existence at all, and hoped that it would become clear as to their role if he stayed longer. What I'm trying to get at is that it really seems as though the common person, brought up to believe in the great democracy we live in, can put all of their life and effort into the democratic web we have built around us, and actually get nowhere fast. But that's okay, because they can feel satisfied once they get the new windows for the village hall, or the extra dog bin they've spent 5 years battling for. It does feel as though the little people are being played with, whilst a large corporate can invite an MP on-board their yacht and change policy in a matter of weeks. This isn't democracy, it's wasting people's time and lives. To use the latest news, the same large corporate can string a tax-inspection by HMRC out a couple of years, wine and dine the inspectors, and still get away with their tax dodging, whereas a plumber found fiddling his tax is sent to gaol, not passing go, and not collecting his £200, as quick as you can say "what democracy".

Ah - that feels better.

Duncan

[PAdam...@aol.com]

In a message dated 22/12/2011 11:45:41 GMT Standard Time, dun...@kopperdrake.co.uk writes:

At ours it's the flood drills after the great flood of 2001, when a lane in the village was submerged under a foot of water. On the other hand they're contesting the recent Environmental Agency's classification of much of the parish as being in flood plain as they're worried about house prices being affected. Because that's the important thing in the whole story - how much your house is worth...

I do think you're right concerning democracy. Since the corporates took over running ours and others countries, in all but name, I believe people have gradually become disenfranchised from the whole system. The idea that 'Why vote, I won't change anything', is one I always poo-pooed, but these days it's not so much a question of wasting a vote, but just a question of there's no one I want to vote for - they all seem so self-serving or stuck in their own particular ruts. I think that, coupled with the global communications where people can share ideas on an earth-scale, is helping movements like the Transition Town movement gain momentum. Pre-internet, for people to do something perceived as out of the ordinary, you would have to reach a critical mass in order to get it to happen. Now, a few small groups can look at each other across the internet and realise that whilst theyt may be a minority in their own country, their ideas and beliefs are shared by many more across the world, and they won't feel so alone or unusual, giving them the courage, inclination and ability to do their own thing.

So today we have groups of like-minded people, disenchanted with the democratic system, sick of politicians dodging the big questions, deciding to do their own thing. But they know there are a growing number of people locally, nationally and internationally, all doing their own thing too, which happens to be the same thing. They are large enough to affect local government, how long until they can affect national government, if at all? That is the global village I care about - global democracy as opposed to global capitalisation, which is what we currently have. The government no longer feels as though it serves the people, so let us serve ourselves as best we can.

On a side note, my father sits on a community council in Scotland (the equivalent of the English parish councils), and he is also, by proxy, on the village hall committee. As part of the latter, he has been put forward to be the representative for some national village hall group representative, to sit on yet another committee. This committee, which I assume oversees the interests of Scotland's village halls, has a salary drawing chairperson. It doesn't take much to realise that this salary drawing chairperson will no doubt sit on another committee higher up the scale, surrounded by other salaried chairpeople from their own separate committees. We have created a web of committees and groups, many volunteers and some paid, who spend their entire lives chasing and debating issues that keep them busy, but are unnecessarily complicated. At the last meeting he actually stated, whilst sat next to the salaried chairperson, that he was really struggling as to why there was a committee in existence at all, and hoped that it would become clear as to their role if he stayed longer. What I'm trying to get at is that it really seems as though the common person, brought up to believe in the great democracy we live in, can put all of their life and effort into the democratic web we have built around us, and actually get nowhere fast. But that's okay, because they can feel satisfied once they get the new windows for the village hall, or the extra dog bin they've spent 5 years battling for. It does feel as though the little people are being played with, whilst a large corporate can invite an MP on-board their yacht and change policy in a matter of weeks. This isn't democracy, it's wasting people's time and lives. To use the latest news, the same large corporate can string a tax-inspection by HMRC out a couple of years, wine and dine the inspectors, and still get away with their tax dodging, whereas a plumber found fiddling his tax is sent to gaol, not passing go, and not collecting his £200, as quick as you can say "what democracy".

Ah - that feels better.

Duncan

Hi Duncan,

 

Quite right. Am sick of dog bins, the complex web of talking shops, aka committees, and folk whose grasp on reality extends only as far as the value of their own property.

 

The sheer waste and inefficiency is mind boggling. Many examples, but here is one. Our new village hall, just 15 years old, is only heated by electric convectors. Parish Council meeting in winter - the room is freezing - turn heaters on max - it only gets comfortable at the end of the meeting. Lottery grants up for improvements - a sustainable heating system, or a tarmac car park with bright lighting. Guess which one they chose?

 

The internet is unprecendented in power, accessiblity and irrepressiblity. I guess as long as most people use it for entertainment and chat about topical game shows, it will be free (in both senses).

 

The Transition Towns movement is great. I hope it spawns a new level of community action which extends beyond NIMBYism.

 

Anyway, I have been so busy last few days - my little business is booming at present, lots of repeat orders, which demostrates that in hard economic times some people will go for honest quality and real food above fancy packaging and marketing.

 

Happy Christmas to you and all on this forum.

 

Patrick