Lollipops with sodium fluoride - Replace "sugar"

[Mashi]

Hi!
I've tried to make some lollipops with sodium fluoride, so far it's
quite good. But because of I've replaced the sugar with cyclamate and
saccharin, the sweetness is high. It's too sweet. Therefore I'd like
to reduce the quantity of cyclamate and saccharin with something that
make the lollipops hard and I have no idea what I can use. Could
someone give me a piece of advice or tip?
One important thing is that sodium fluoride react with acid, so any
containing acid is not possible.

(I'm trying to make some lollipops that are more healthy to the
teeth.)


Any fast reply would be appreciated.

[Andreas Schild]

Interesting idea, but...
It does not answer your question, but ingestion of NaF, even in small doses, is dangerous:

Oral rat LD50: 52 mg/kg, according to the following page:
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s3722.htm

One reason why you should spit out the toothpaste...

Regards,
Andreas

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[Roy]

[Roy]

Lollipops are supposed to be made with sugar glass( high boiled sugar
syrup).. to do that a good substitute is isomalt

>One important thing is that sodium fluoride react with acid, so any
>containing acid is not possible.

And one thing also,.... high boiled sweets are supposed to be
slightly acidic as it was supposed to complement fruit flavors....


Therefore if you want to fabricate lollipops that is acid free I can't
imagine how will it taste...

> > Any fast reply would be appreciated.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Grif]

How much sodium fluoride you using? I would not have expected a theurepetic level to have any effect on the lollipop hardening, or even the ph.



om: Mashi <lilly...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 26, 2009 4:41 AM
>To: Molecular Gastronomy <molecular-...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [MG] Lollipops with sodium fluoride - Replace "sugar"

>
>Hi!
>I've tried to make some lollipops with sodium fluoride, so far it's
>quite good. But because of I've replaced the sugar with cyclamate and
>saccharin, the sweetness is high. It's too sweet. Therefore I'd like
>to reduce the quantity of cyclamate and saccharin with something that
>make the lollipops hard and I have no idea what I can use. Could
>someone give me a piece of advice or tip?
>One important thing is that sodium fluoride react with acid, so any
>containing acid is not possible.
>
>(I'm trying to make some lollipops that are more healthy to the
>teeth.)
>
>

[Fred Kellermann]

Hi Folks

 

I'm new to the forum so let me know if I'm overstepping.

 

I think you would be better off making your lollipops from a base of isomalt with just a touch of sodium flouride. You'll have all the pleasure of flavoring and reduced calorie intake and none of the concerns of sodium floride. I assume you want to use the sodium floride for the enamel benifits it can offer but as little as 5g ingest can be a lethal dose.

[Mashi]

Grif: Each of my lollipops contains around 0,125 mg sodium fluoride.

Roy: I have tried to make lollipops without any acid. Because of the
sodium fluoride I had to remove the citric acid.

I have tried to manufacture lollipops with citric acid and vanillin
and without sodium fluoride, but it gave the lollipops a caustic
taste. So I had to remove from my lollipops and for the moment I don't
have any seasonings. I want to reduce the sweetness first.

On 27 Nov, 18:29, 'Grif' <kgrif...@wolfenet.com> wrote:
> How much sodium fluoride you using?  I would not have expected a theurepetic level to have any effect on the lollipop hardening, or even the ph.
>

> om: Mashi <lilly97l...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
> >Sent: Nov 26, 2009 4:41 AM
> >To: Molecular Gastronomy <molecular-...@googlegroups.com>
> >Subject: [MG] Lollipops with sodium fluoride - Replace "sugar"
>
> >Hi!
> >I've tried to make some lollipops with sodium fluoride, so far it's
> >quite good. But because of I've replaced the sugar with cyclamate and
> >saccharin, the sweetness is high. It's too sweet. Therefore I'd like
> >to reduce the quantity of cyclamate and saccharin with something that
> >make the lollipops hard and I have no idea what I can use. Could
> >someone give me a piece of advice or tip?
> >One important thing is that sodium fluoride react with acid, so any
> >containing acid is not possible.
>
> >(I'm trying to make some lollipops that are more healthy to the
> >teeth.)
>
> >Any fast reply would be appreciated.
>
> >--
>
> >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Molecular Gastronomy" group.
> >To post to this group, send email to molecular-...@googlegroups.com.
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to molecular-gastro...@googlegroups.com.

> >For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/molecular-gastronomy?hl=en.- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -

[dablind frog]

what is the purpose of the sodium fluoride and why are you pursuing so actively to use this ingredient in the lollipops?

2009/11/28 Mashi <lilly...@gmail.com>

[Mashi]

dablind frog: Because I want to make lollipops that are more healthy
to the teeth and sodium fluoride have a preventive effect against
dental caries. Making lollipops that are healthier to the teeth is my
project at school.

On 28 Nov, 14:13, dablind frog <dablindf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vad är syftet med natriumfluorid och varför är du bedriver så
> aktivt använda denna ingrediens i klubbor?
>
> 2009/11/28 Mashi <lilly97l...gmail.com>
>
> hide_quotes = no # msg_5a878b5537c4d134 ">- Dölj citerad text --
>
> - Visa citerad text --
>
>
>
> > Grif: Var och en av mina klubbor innehåller omkring 0.125 mg natriumfluorid.
>
> > Roy: Jag har försökt att göra klubbor utan syra. Grund av
> > Natriumfluorid jag var tvungen att ta bort citronsyra.
>
> > Jag har försökt att tillverka klubbor med citronsyra och vanilj
> > Och utan natriumfluorid, men den gav slickepinnar en frätande
> > Smak. Så jag var tvungen att ta bort från min klubbor och för tillfället kan jag inte
> > Har några kryddor. Jag vill minska sötma först.
>
> > On 27 november, 18:29, "Grif" <kgrif...wolfenet.com>skrev:
> >> Hur mycket natriumfluorid du använder?Jag skulle inte ha förväntat sig
> > Theurepetic nivå för att ha någon effekt på Lollipop härdning, eller ens
> > Ph.
>
> >> Om: Mashi <lilly97l...gmail.com>
>
> >>> Sent: November 26, 2009 4:41
> >>> To: Molecular Gastronomy <molecular-...@googlegroups.com>
> >>> Subject: [MG] Lollipops med natriumfluorid - Ersätt "socker"
>
> >>> Hej!
> >>> Jag har försökt att göra några klubbor med natriumfluorid, hittills har det gått
> >>> Ganska bra. Men eftersom jag har ersatt sockret med cyklamat och
> >>> Sackarin, är det hög sötma. Det är för söt. Därför jag vill
> >>> För att minska mängden cyklamat och sackarin med något som
> >>> Göra slickepinnar hårt och jag har ingen aning om vad jag kan använda. Kunde
> >>> Någon ge mig ett råd eller tips?
> >>> En viktig sak är att natriumfluorid reagerar med syra, så alla
> >>> Innehåller syra är inte möjligt.
>
> >>> (Jag försöker göra några klubbor som är mer hälsosamma för
> >>> Tänder.)
>
> >>> Ett snabbt svar skulle uppskattas.
>
> >>> --
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[Mashi]

Can't any thickening agent be to help to replace the amount of sugar?
I have been thinkning of using thickening agent, but I still havn't
found a suitable thickening agent that's not an acid.

On 28 Nov, 14:13, dablind frog <dablindf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vad är syftet med natriumfluorid och varför är du bedriver så
> aktivt använda denna ingrediens i klubbor?
>
> 2009/11/28 Mashi <lilly97l...gmail.com>
>
> hide_quotes = no # msg_5a878b5537c4d134 ">- Dölj citerad text --
>
> - Visa citerad text --
>
>
>
> > Grif: Var och en av mina klubbor innehåller omkring 0.125 mg natriumfluorid.
>
> > Roy: Jag har försökt att göra klubbor utan syra. Grund av
> > Natriumfluorid jag var tvungen att ta bort citronsyra.
>
> > Jag har försökt att tillverka klubbor med citronsyra och vanilj
> > Och utan natriumfluorid, men den gav slickepinnar en frätande
> > Smak. Så jag var tvungen att ta bort från min klubbor och för tillfället kan jag inte
> > Har några kryddor. Jag vill minska sötma först.
>
> > On 27 november, 18:29, "Grif" <kgrif...wolfenet.com>skrev:
> >> Hur mycket natriumfluorid du använder?Jag skulle inte ha förväntat sig
> > Theurepetic nivå för att ha någon effekt på Lollipop härdning, eller ens
> > Ph.
>
> >> Om: Mashi <lilly97l...gmail.com>
>
> >>> Sent: November 26, 2009 4:41

> >>> To: Molecular Gastronomy <molecular-...@googlegroups.com>

[dablind frog]

i might be wrong but it seems you are not actually very familiar with all the aspects of sodium fluoride, meaning that you leave yourself (and potential eaters) exposed to side effects and/or harmful consequences.
yes your lollipops contain far less than lethal doses, but the fact that this ingredient is at all lethal should be ringing alarm bells

anyhow, i'm sure many fellow chef would agree that we're not very keen on the name "molecular gastronomy" for the very reason that some individuals will push the boundaries to unsafe levels by using chemicals, instead of going the more natural way

2009/11/30 Mashi <lilly...@gmail.com>

[w keith griffith]

did you look at acidulated phosphate fluoride as an option to the sodium salt?

So you were looking at a total dose of about 1/2
the recommended daily dose per popsickle?

[Roy]

Mashi lets review your project based upon your original post and let’s
get REAL.

Hi!
>I've tried to make some lollipops with sodium fluoride, so far it's
>quite good.

Really? What’s your bench mark for that ? did you subject it for
sensory evaluation?

> But because of I've replaced the sugar with cyclamate and
>saccharin, the sweetness is high. It's too sweet.

Here you said that you want to replace sugar with cyclamate or
saccharin..implying that you don’t understand the hard candy
formulation.
Replacing a natural sweetener with an artificial high strength sugar
replacer would drastically alter the functional properties of your
finished candy

>Therefore I'd like
>to reduce the quantity of cyclamate and saccharin with something that
>make the lollipops hard and I have no idea what I can use.

>Can't any thickening agent be to help to replace the amount of sugar?
>I have been thinkning of using thickening agent, but I still havn't
>found a suitable thickening agent that's not an acid.
>Can't any thickening agent be to help to replace the amount of sugar?

>I have been thinking of using thickening agent, but I still havn't

>found a suitable thickening agent that's not an acid.

The cause of the glassy structure of candy is the sugar itself and
unless you can replace it with a similar materials then you are not
likely to progress in that area.
No thickener can duplicate that as its not a matter of binding the
water in the confectionery materials as the moisture is driven off
during the candy cooking process than being bound with thickener
( moisture of about 1% remains in the end product).

>One important thing is that sodium fluoride react with acid, so any
>containing acid is not possible.

I am not sure how much citric acid you applied But keep in mind the
amount of citric acid used is rather minimal.
but yes sodium fluoride Is an ionic material which will dissociates
into sodium and fluoride ions in the aqueous solution ( your candy
mixture) to form hydrofluoric acid. But table salt( sodium chloride)
is also an ionic materials , is also added in high boils to balance
the sweetness and improve the taste and it dissociates similarly to
its sodium and chloride ions but how come the supposed formed
hydrochloric acid is unable for change the taste of the candy.?
It implies that you are using heaps of citric acid in your recipe…
hence that the cause of the caustic taste.

>(I'm trying to make some lollipops that are more healthy to the

>teethI


I understand your point, but have ever thought about that you are
stubbornly ignoring the fact that sodium fluoride is a poison as what
other posters here had already emphasized…. and its not even in the
list of approved food additives in Codex alimentarius.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_food_additives,_Codex_Alimentarius

Look…even as toothpaste that contains fluorides are given a stern
warning .....
‘WARNING: Keep out of reach of children under 6 years of age. If you
accidentally swallow more than used for brushing, seek professional
help or contact a poison control center immediately."
SOURCE: FDA Mandated Warning on Fluoride Toothpaste Labels Sold in
U.S.’

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/lethal.html

You are indeed putting your consumers of your concoction at risk with
your project

>Grif: Each of my lollipops contains around 0,125 mg sodium fluoride.

Such dose is already considered toxic which is exacerbated by the fact
that is ingested internally as a candy!

>So I had to remove from my lollipops and for the moment I don't
>have any seasonings. I want to reduce the sweetness

I would suggest that you abandon that dangerous and silly project or
you will be in big trouble if the health authorities will discover
your creation… and some of your kid consumers will end in the
intensive care….if not in the cemetery.

Try to think first before you push through with( what I call) your
diabolical project...

Which is more important to you....
The dental health and general well being of your kids or your possible
life or your remaining years in the slammer?

Roy



.

[w keith griffith]

You know,,, If it's a pure academic project, no
harm no foul. A little research, some peer
review, learn a few things, perhaps come up with
a more palatable product for the medical trade.

Now,,, putting something like that in a bag of halloween candy? Not so good.

I'm a bit odd on the next thought,,, but if he
wants to practice on his own immediate family, that's just fine by me.

[Ross]

Thank you, Keith, for reigning the group in here. Let's all keep in
mind that this forum is supposed to be a collaborative place and I'm
sure we've all done a few (student) projects here or there that may
have started out impractical and turned into something more practical
or lead to a useful tangential discovery.

Mashi -- If your goal is to simply create a "better for you" lollipop
and you do want to go a more practical route and ditch the fluoride,
here are a few other things to consider:

1) You could consider tinkering with casein phosphopeptide, which is
derived from milk protein and helps strengthen tooth enamel and
prevent cavities. Many commercial chewing gum brands use it. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recaldent for more.

2) You may want to consider a lollipop with a vitamin D / calcium
combination. Most kids don't get enough calcium, especially in lower
socio-economic households where milk is too expensive for daily
consumption. (The vitamin D helps the body absorb the calcium.)

3) You could consider a kids multi-vitamin lollipop. My son enjoys
vitamins in a gummy bear like form (see http://www.nextag.com/gummy-vitamin/products-html),
but I'm sure he'd rather eat a lollipop every morning!

4) You could consider a lollipop with fiber. Again, something that a
lot of parents don't give their kids enough of and most adults don't
get enough of either. Some kids who have "potty issues" simply have
such issues because they don't get enough fiber in their diet and are
therefore not "regular." Then again, the artificial sweetners you're
using could offset some of the fiber effects in some people. I'm not
sure how it's made, but Benefiber is a great fiber supplement as it
dissolves in almost anything and is tasteless and textureless.

5) You could consider adding some prebiotics for similar reasons
outlined in number 4 above. Some major food manufacturers are doing
just this in some of the most surprising products. (See
http://www.flex-news-food.com/pages/13159/Kraft/Probiotic/Probiotics/kraft-expands-liveactive-cereal-drinks.html)

Hope this sparks some ideas.

--Ross

[w keith griffith]

Good Job Ross! wish I was as good with the written word as
you. very well said.

[Roy]

I am back...

Whoa.....?
Your suggestion is an overkill....
Unless the OP understand what a hard candy formulation is then
providing him/her with exotic ideas would not help....
I doubt that if he or she ever made such kind of candy or just
imagining things.?....just for the sake of discussion.....

Basing upon the information the OP provided, the little NaF and
Saccharin/cyclamate sweetener( even including the possible citric
acid ) he/she 'cooked' that candy in his imagination but never in
practice ...<grin>
IF he ever did the recipe actually he/she will end up with a liquid
that would not even solidify due to lack of structural material for
the formation of such confection...

Roy

On Nov 30, 9:49 am, Ross <ross.goldenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Keith, for reigning the group in here. Let's all keep in
> mind that this forum is supposed to be a collaborative place and I'm
> sure we've all done a few (student) projects here or there that may
> have started out impractical and turned into something more practical
> or lead to a useful tangential discovery.
>
> Mashi -- If your goal is to simply create a "better for you" lollipop
> and you do want to go a more practical route and ditch the fluoride,
> here are a few other things to consider:
>
> 1) You could consider tinkering with casein phosphopeptide, which is
> derived from milk protein and helps strengthen tooth enamel and

> prevent cavities. Many commercial chewing gum brands use it. Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recaldentfor more.

>
> 2) You may want to consider a lollipop with a vitamin D / calcium
> combination. Most kids don't get enough calcium, especially in lower
> socio-economic households where milk is too expensive for daily
> consumption. (The vitamin D helps the body absorb the calcium.)
>
> 3) You could consider a kids multi-vitamin lollipop. My son enjoys

> vitamins in a gummy bear like form (seehttp://www.nextag.com/gummy-vitamin/products-html),

> but I'm sure he'd rather eat a lollipop every morning!
>
> 4) You could consider a lollipop with fiber. Again, something that a
> lot of parents don't give their kids enough of and most adults don't
> get enough of either. Some kids who have "potty issues" simply have
> such issues because they don't get enough fiber in their diet and are
> therefore not "regular." Then again, the artificial sweetners you're
> using could offset some of the fiber effects in some people. I'm not
> sure how it's made, but Benefiber is a great fiber supplement as it
> dissolves in almost anything and is tasteless and textureless.
>
> 5) You could consider adding some prebiotics for similar reasons
> outlined in number 4 above. Some major food manufacturers are doing

> just this in some of the most surprising products. (Seehttp://www.flex-news-food.com/pages/13159/Kraft/Probiotic/Probiotics/...)