Suggestion
Kalayaan 001
Thank you very much for Moji. I love it greatly and have found it to
be more efficient than the others that I have encountered thus far.
Great work!
The only improvement I see that could make this already great system
even better is one modification in the Kanji Dictionary Options. I
notice that, at least in my experience with the current system,
selecting which information to display and what not can be frustrating
because failure to correctly select one option will cancel off/undo
everything that was correctly sleeted and one would have to start from
the beginning again.
Perhaps, a system of checking boxes would be more effective. I think
that this will better serve our fellow Moji-user.
Thanks for your time.
Take care,
Kalayaan 001
Zorkzero
> Perhaps, a system of checking boxes would be more effective. I think
> that this will better serve our fellow Moji-user.
The patch is here: http://rapidshare.com/files/299014403/moji1.patch .
I hope this will be included in moji.
Gerald Vogt
that people with lower resolution displays had trouble accessing all the
options. Can you check that it is working correct even with lower
resolutions like 800x600?
Gerald
Zorkzero
> We had checkboxes for the kanji options before. The problem was just
> that people with lower resolution displays had trouble accessing all the
> options. Can you check that it is working correct even with lower
> resolutions like 800x600?
250 px. I have also made the width of dialog 300 px because it was too
wide. So now the dialog is only ca. 300x300px and should work with
800x600.
Gerald Vogt
five tabs required a lot of space. Now I have reorganized it into three
tabs with 2 inner tabs. Size is a little bit larger then 300x300 but
still fully readable on 800x600.
I would appreciate if a few people could test the new version before I
publish it officially.
It is available from: http://downloads.mozdev.org/moji/moji-0.9.7.xpi
The only thing which has changed is the options dialog. To access it,
you open the moji sidebar, click on "More..." and select "Config...".
Aside from the layout the main change is in the Kanji Dictionary
Options. Please test
* that you can change the selection of Kanji information
* that these changes are saved when you press O.K.
* that following kanji lookups show or not show the respective
information, e.g. if you have unselected "Nelson Index" the Nelson Index
is not shown anymore for new lookups (Kanji lookups saved from previous
searches won't change!)
* that the status is still shown correctly after opening the options
again, e.g. "Nelson Index" is still unselected if you have unselected it
before.
Thanks!
I hope the new layout works everywhere and everyone likes it... ;-)
Cheers,
Gerald
Kalayaan 001
This is great!
Thank you for your time.
Take care,
Kalayaan 001
Zorkzero
> O.K. I have changed the layout of the options a little bit more. The
> five tabs required a lot of space. Now I have reorganized it into three
> tabs with 2 inner tabs. Size is a little bit larger then 300x300 but
> still fully readable on 800x600.
like my version *much* better. Nested tabs are confusing, the width of
the dialog is too small, so some text overflows. The height of the
kanji options is now only 150px. This is too small and there is a lot
of unused space under it. Now you have to scroll a lot more. There's
also "max-width: 75em;" this style on a "description". It doesn't even
use pixels and conflicts with the dialog width.
Also the "children" and "childNodeCount" properties were introduced in
FF 3.5 according to MDC.
Gerald Vogt
> On 28 Okt., 23:00, Gerald Vogt <v...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> O.K. I have changed the layout of the options a little bit more. The
>> five tabs required a lot of space. Now I have reorganized it into three
>> tabs with 2 inner tabs. Size is a little bit larger then 300x300 but
>> still fully readable on 800x600.
>
>> I hope the new layout works everywhere and everyone likes it... ;-)
>
> I have tested it and it works, but I don't like it at all, sorry. I
> like my version *much* better. Nested tabs are confusing, the width of
I don't agree with you that nesting tabs are confusing. The grouping is
fully clear. One is for word dictionaries, the other for kanji
dictionaries. I always found the 5 tabs with two tabs for word dicts and
two for kanji dict not very good.
If you use 5 tabs the width of the window is defined by the size of the
tab texts. Your setting of width: 300px for the tabbox was ineffective
because the total width of the tab texts was already more the 300px. On
Windows the dialog took some 550px, on OSX it was 770px. If you use 5
tabs you won't get smaller widths. Now with 3 tabs only width can be
smaller.
> the dialog is too small, so some text overflows. The height of the
> kanji options is now only 150px. This is too small and there is a lot
> of unused space under it. Now you have to scroll a lot more. There's
> also "max-width: 75em;" this style on a "description". It doesn't even
> use pixels and conflicts with the dialog width.
I don't understand what the problem should be with max-width: 75em;
1. it is max-width, i.e. currently it does not have an effect as the
width is less then 75em;
2. It is generally better to use em instead of px because em depends on
the font size used on the computer.
I'll see if I can find how to get the description texts better laid
out/wrapped without bloating the whole window...
> Also the "children" and "childNodeCount" properties were introduced in
> FF 3.5 according to MDC.
I'll replace that with childNodes. That's available in 3.0.
Gerald
Zorkzero
> I don't agree with you that nesting tabs are confusing. The grouping is
> fully clear. One is for word dictionaries, the other for kanji
> dictionaries. I always found the 5 tabs with two tabs for word dicts and
> two for kanji dict not very good.
Maybe it is better to ask a usabily expert. Quote from
http://damicat.googlepages.com/whyoblivionsucks: "Nested tabs are a
big no-no when it comes to PC interface design. Anyone who has taken
any basic college level class on interface design should know that
nested tabs are bad design."
> If you use 5 tabs the width of the window is defined by the size of the
> tab texts. Your setting of width: 300px for the tabbox was ineffective
> because the total width of the tab texts was already more the 300px. On
> Windows the dialog took some 550px, on OSX it was 770px. If you use 5
> tabs you won't get smaller widths. Now with 3 tabs only width can be
> smaller.
you remove it then it will grow much bigger. My dialog is smaller than
the the dialog in 0.9.6. So what is the problem? If you want the
dialog to be less wide then you should make the tab names shorter,
they are longer than in FF for example. E.g. "general" instead of
"general settings" etc.
> I don't understand what the problem should be with max-width: 75em;
>
> 1. it is max-width, i.e. currently it does not have an effect as the
> width is less then 75em;
>
> 2. It is generally better to use em instead of px because em depends on
> the font size used on the computer.
fit on the screen, no matter the font size. If the user has a big font
size, then the dialog won't fit on the screen. If the text gets to big
for the dialog, then it should simply overflow. For example:
style="overflow: auto" will add scrollbars to text if necessary.
BTW, all those alerts are very annoying, they always tell you the same
thing and it's impossible to turn them off. I have removed them in my
version. http://brannickdevice.blogspot.com/2006/02/modal-message-box-is-pure-evil.html
I could send a patch, but it's trivial.
Gerald Vogt
> On 29 Okt., 15:29, Gerald Vogt <v...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> I don't agree with you that nesting tabs are confusing. The grouping is
>> fully clear. One is for word dictionaries, the other for kanji
>> dictionaries. I always found the 5 tabs with two tabs for word dicts and
>> two for kanji dict not very good.
>
> Moji has only 5 tabs, Firefox has 7 and they are not nested.
1. Then we have to use smaller fonts for the tab texts. 5 Moji tabs
require much more width then 7 Firefox tabs with small fonts and icons.
2. Firefox uses nested tabs on the Advanced tab.
> Maybe it is better to ask a usabily expert. Quote from
> http://damicat.googlepages.com/whyoblivionsucks: "Nested tabs are a
> big no-no when it comes to PC interface design. Anyone who has taken
> any basic college level class on interface design should know that
> nested tabs are bad design."
That does not really apply here. It is regarding a completely different
case in a different scenario. The nested tabs make perfect sense here.
It organizes the main areas and sub areas for the word dictionaries and
kanji dictionaries.
>> If you use 5 tabs the width of the window is defined by the size of the
>> tab texts. Your setting of width: 300px for the tabbox was ineffective
>> because the total width of the tab texts was already more the 300px. On
>> Windows the dialog took some 550px, on OSX it was 770px. If you use 5
>> tabs you won't get smaller widths. Now with 3 tabs only width can be
>> smaller.
>
> Yes it was bigger than 300px, sorry, I didn't check the size. But if
> you remove it then it will grow much bigger. My dialog is smaller than
It won't grow much bigger. I just have to find out how to prevent the
texts from making it bigger...
> the the dialog in 0.9.6. So what is the problem? If you want the
> dialog to be less wide then you should make the tab names shorter,
> they are longer than in FF for example. E.g. "general" instead of
> "general settings" etc.
Your dialog was not really smaller in OSX. The width of the dialog in
OSX was defined by the texts in the tabs.
>> I don't understand what the problem should be with max-width: 75em;
>>
>> 1. it is max-width, i.e. currently it does not have an effect as the
>> width is less then 75em;
>>
>> 2. It is generally better to use em instead of px because em depends on
>> the font size used on the computer.
>
> The size of the dialog should be in pixels so that you know it will
> fit on the screen, no matter the font size. If the user has a big font
> size, then the dialog won't fit on the screen. If the text gets to big
> for the dialog, then it should simply overflow. For example:
The dialog must be usable on screens with low resolution as well as
screens with high resolution. On a big high resolution screen you use
bigger fonts and the dialog should become bigger in relation to that.
The way to go is not to use any width or height specifications.
And again: I don't understand what problem you have with the 75em. It
was to prevent the text to get too long. I try to find a way to deal
with that properly.
Setting fixed widths is only a quick and dirty hack with many
implications on different screens with different resolutions and
different base font sizes.
> style="overflow: auto" will add scrollbars to text if necessary.
Using overflow: auto too much will quickly generate scrollbars for tabs
where it is not really necessary.
> BTW, all those alerts are very annoying, they always tell you the same
> thing and it's impossible to turn them off. I have removed them in my
> version. http://brannickdevice.blogspot.com/2006/02/modal-message-box-is-pure-evil.html
> I could send a patch, but it's trivial.
Which alerts are you talking about? The message when you press OK in the
Options dialog? It's only from a Options dialog! It's not like you
constantly access this dialog and make changes there. You set up your
dictionaries you like to use and the kanji listings. You do that once
and then usually won't have to look at the options anymore.
All that is important is that it is usable and readable. It does not
have to look perfect or be perfect. There are only very few settings you
have to do. The nested tabs make it perfectly simple and smaller on all
platforms. It does not require fixed widths and heights except for the
kanji option checkboxes. And it does not require you to change font
sizes to make the overall width of 5 tabs fitting into smaller space.
With the current settings it uses system defaults which is exactly how
it should be. Don't make it overly complicated only to get it fitting...
Gerald
Zorkzero
> > Moji has only 5 tabs, Firefox has 7 and they are not nested.
>
> 1. Then we have to use smaller fonts for the tab texts. 5 Moji tabs
> require much more width then 7 Firefox tabs with small fonts and icons.
German version, that I'm using. You can just make them shorter. I
think the font size of the tab names is the same in FF and in Moji.
> That does not really apply here. It is regarding a completely different
> case in a different scenario. The nested tabs make perfect sense here.
> It organizes the main areas and sub areas for the word dictionaries and
> kanji dictionaries.
text overflows and there's wasted space, and you see to little of the
kanji options.
> Your dialog was not really smaller in OSX. The width of the dialog in
> OSX was defined by the texts in the tabs.
> The dialog must be usable on screens with low resolution as well as
> screens with high resolution. On a big high resolution screen you use
> bigger fonts and the dialog should become bigger in relation to that.
>
> The way to go is not to use any width or height specifications.
small one with a lower resolution. They both use the same font size
because I want to see more on the big monitor. I don't want to see the
same amount of text only bigger.
> And again: I don't understand what problem you have with the 75em. It
> was to prevent the text to get too long. I try to find a way to deal
> with that properly.
anymore. I have my own version of Moji after all.
> Which alerts are you talking about? The message when you press OK in the
> Options dialog? It's only from a Options dialog! It's not like you
> constantly access this dialog and make changes there. You set up your
> dictionaries you like to use and the kanji listings. You do that once
> and then usually won't have to look at the options anymore.
lookupKanji, that tell you that you haven't selected a word or that it
has no kanji.
Gerald Vogt
> On 29 Okt., 17:58, Gerald Vogt <v...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>> Moji has only 5 tabs, Firefox has 7 and they are not nested.
>> 1. Then we have to use smaller fonts for the tab texts. 5 Moji tabs
>> require much more width then 7 Firefox tabs with small fonts and icons.
>
> I guess that's because the tab names are too long, at least in the
> German version, that I'm using. You can just make them shorter. I
> think the font size of the tab names is the same in FF and in Moji.
Not on OSX. The standard tab font size is larger. FF uses a much smaller
font for the top icon tab texts.
>> That does not really apply here. It is regarding a completely different
>> case in a different scenario. The nested tabs make perfect sense here.
>> It organizes the main areas and sub areas for the word dictionaries and
>> kanji dictionaries.
>
> I won't argue anymore, but it really looks ugly on my PC. Like I said
> text overflows and there's wasted space, and you see to little of the
> kanji options.
All those things have nothing to do with nested tabs. The layout on PC
did not look so good because of fixed widths/heights. I'll deal with
these problems.
>> Your dialog was not really smaller in OSX. The width of the dialog in
>> OSX was defined by the texts in the tabs.
>
> I use Windows XP.
Firefox runs on Windows, OSX, Linux, and others. I have to make sure
that it works properly on all platforms. This requires some compromises
unless you want platform dependent code...
>> The dialog must be usable on screens with low resolution as well as
>> screens with high resolution. On a big high resolution screen you use
>> bigger fonts and the dialog should become bigger in relation to that.
>>
>> The way to go is not to use any width or height specifications.
>
> I have two monitors here: a big one with a very high resolution and
> small one with a lower resolution. They both use the same font size
> because I want to see more on the big monitor. I don't want to see the
> same amount of text only bigger.
Exactly. And that's exactly why it is important to use units like "em".
Because only "em" will reflect your choice of resolution and standard
font size. A fixed width in pixel may look the way you want on your
display but not on someone else's.
>> Which alerts are you talking about? The message when you press OK in the
>> Options dialog? It's only from a Options dialog! It's not like you
>> constantly access this dialog and make changes there. You set up your
>> dictionaries you like to use and the kanji listings. You do that once
>> and then usually won't have to look at the options anymore.
>
> Those are also annoying, but the worst are those in lookupWord and
> lookupKanji, that tell you that you haven't selected a word or that it
> has no kanji.
O.K. You don't like alerts. Windows has a lot of alerts, too.
I can tell you that good UI design requires some reaction to any action
you do. That's how you learn it at University. If you select text and
there won't be anything happening in response, for instance because the
text does not contain any kanji, then it is imperative to notify the
user of that fact. If you have any other suggestion to show a reaction
without an alert message I am more then willing to consider implementing it.
For the options OK warning we may be able to put the text into the
dialog window above or left of the OK button...
Gerald
Zorkzero
Here's another patch for the options dialog: http://rapidshare.com/files/299951500/moji2.patch
. It should be applied on top of the first. It only changes prefs.xul.
The dialog now has only 4 tabs is even smaller, same size as the FF
dialog. It is logically organized: "general", "dictionaries", "kanji
dictionaries", "kanji options". There's no unused space, nothing
overflows and best of all, there are no nested tabs.
> O.K. You don't like alerts. Windows has a lot of alerts, too.
>
> I can tell you that good UI design requires some reaction to any action
> you do. That's how you learn it at University. If you select text and
> there won't be anything happening in response, for instance because the
> text does not contain any kanji, then it is imperative to notify the
> user of that fact. If you have any other suggestion to show a reaction
> without an alert message I am more then willing to consider implementing it.
nothing is selected or show a message in the sidebar. When a word
isn't found the message is already displayed in the sidebar, so why
not display all messages there. Also I'm sure that no user actually
expects a reaction if he hasn't selected a word.
Gerald Vogt
> On 29 Okt., 20:05, Gerald Vogt <v...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> Here's another patch for the options dialog: http://rapidshare.com/files/299951500/moji2.patch
> . It should be applied on top of the first. It only changes prefs.xul.
I currently don't have a version to which I could apply the patch.
Please upload the two prefs files instead. These I can quickly replace...
> The dialog now has only 4 tabs is even smaller, same size as the FF
> dialog. It is logically organized: "general", "dictionaries", "kanji
> dictionaries", "kanji options". There's no unused space, nothing
> overflows and best of all, there are no nested tabs.
I can see in the patch that you still set the width to the tabbox. I
repeat: this won't really on all platforms. It won't be 450px all on
platforms. Remove that it's not necessary. You have to tame the content
elements not the dialog...
>> O.K. You don't like alerts. Windows has a lot of alerts, too.
>>
>> I can tell you that good UI design requires some reaction to any action
>> you do. That's how you learn it at University. If you select text and
>> there won't be anything happening in response, for instance because the
>> text does not contain any kanji, then it is imperative to notify the
>> user of that fact. If you have any other suggestion to show a reaction
>> without an alert message I am more then willing to consider implementing it.
>
> There are two possibilities, either disable the search buttons when
> nothing is selected or show a message in the sidebar. When a word
I'll see if I can quickly disable/enable the buttons depending on
whether something is selected or not.
> isn't found the message is already displayed in the sidebar, so why
> not display all messages there. Also I'm sure that no user actually
> expects a reaction if he hasn't selected a word.
That's not the problem. I am pretty sure that the user expects a
reaction if he has selected something. That's the problem.
If the user did not enter anything and did not select anything he won't
press the buttons anyway and won't see the alerts. And if he presses the
button I think it's worth an alert for the learning experience. Pressing
the buttons while nothing has been entered nor selected is obviously a
mal-operation of moji and it should not happen too often...
Gerald
Zorkzero
> Zorkzero wrote:
> > On 29 Okt., 20:05, Gerald Vogt <v...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> > Here's another patch for the options dialog:http://rapidshare.com/files/299951500/moji2.patch
> > . It should be applied on top of the first. It only changes prefs.xul.
>
> I currently don't have a version to which I could apply the patch.
> Please upload the two prefs files instead. These I can quickly replace...
uploaded both files: http://rapidshare.com/files/299967333/prefs.zip .
prefs.js is unchanged from the first patch.
> I can see in the patch that you still set the width to the tabbox. I
> repeat: this won't really on all platforms. It won't be 450px all on
> platforms. Remove that it's not necessary. You have to tame the content
> elements not the dialog...
good enough for me. The tab names should also be made shorter e.g.
"General" instead of "General Options".
Gerald Vogt
you have suggested. The updated XPI should be available again from:
http://downloads.mozdev.org/moji/moji-0.9.7.xpi
It should look O.K. on OSX, Windows, and Linux. I am still working on
how to use all available space for the kanji options depending on the
other tabs...
Please let me know if it works everywhere...
Gerald
Zorkzero
> It should look O.K. on OSX, Windows, and Linux. I am still working on
> how to use all available space for the kanji options depending on the
> other tabs...
descriptions is tiny on Windows XP, but it's not a problem, it's not
important anyway.